Should cleric of different faiths be more different, like the old specialty priests?

[Dr TPK]

I recently added a new deity in my game and my players were surprisingly happy about this (usually they don't care about gods). Their first question was if the clerics of the new deity get some unique special powers that match the portfolio of the god. I said that this wasn't going to happen, and the clerics are just clerics, and game-mechanically they only differ according to the domains. The new deity has an unusual combination of domain options (from Core domains), but that's it. Then their enthusiasm faded a bit.

What do you guys think about this?

IMO the specialty priest idea was just awful. It was just like adding lots of unbalanced classes to the game. It was just dreadful in AD&D 2e. The clerics are pretty much the same in 3.x regardless of their deities, but I think that's the only way to go. Nevertheless, the fact that my players were a bit disappointed made me a bit sad (not much, though).

[nedz]

I liked the speciality priests in 2E, but the DM did have to do a lot of work to balance them.

In 3.5 one group I play with immediately switched the spontaneous casting away from Cure/Inflict to domain spells - which adds more flavour. If you want curing spells you have to prepare them, or take the healing domain.

You can get a similar effect with the Spontaneous Divine Casters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) rules variant, which has the added attraction of dropping them a tier.

Neither of these are as drastic as the Spheres of 2E — but at least your clerics are now all different.

[Dr TPK]

I liked the speciality priests in 2E, but the DM did have to do a lot of work to balance them.

In 3.5 one group I play with immediately switched the spontaneous casting away from Cure/Inflict to domain spells - which adds more flavour. If you want curing spells you have to prepare them, or take the healing domain.

You can get a similar effect with the Spontaneous Divine Casters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) rules variant, which has the added attraction of dropping them a tier.

Neither of these are as drastic as the Spheres of 2E — but at least your clerics are now all different.

Thank you, nedz, but I think that my players were disappointed that the clerics of a brand-new god weren't different, with or without some tweaking (which you have done with your clerics, ingeniously) from the players' part.

[darksolitaire]

With initiate feats, different domains and dozens of PrC's I'm not bothered by it. No-one in my groups would just play a straight cleric after mid levels.

[Broken Crown]

Conceptually, the 2e specialty priests were a neat idea, but in practice I found them bothersome. It was a lot of work to keep them simultaneously balanced, versatile enough to be interesting, and thematically appropriate.

The 3e system of domains was a huge improvement, in my opinion. I used a house rule that gave clerics spontaneous casting of their domain spells, rather than cure/inflict spells, to increase the distinctiveness of the clerics of different domains. It worked pretty well.

Plus, if you wanted even more diversity in clerics, there are level dips, prestige classes, and so on. Lack of diversity is really not a problem in 3e.

[nedz]

Thank you, nedz, but I think that my players were disappointed that the clerics of a brand-new god weren't different, with or without some tweaking (which you have done with your clerics, ingeniously) from the players' part.

Hmm, well as others have already said: adding feats and PrCs into the mix - as well as dips - means that your players can customise their characters to make them different. I'm not sure what they were expecting ?

I can't help you with the lack of balance though - that's still a thing in 3.5

[Flickerdart]

Consider the psionic "cleric of ideals" - the ardent. Ardents select mantles (functionally domains) that correspond to their core values (two at 1st, one at 5th, 10th, and 15th) and learn powers from those mantles. There is no "ardent" power list, and every ardent is different.

Consider the divine crusader, a class that gets 9 levels of casting but only from one domain. Whether or not you then seek to expand that list, every divine crusader is sharply defined by the god they follow and the domain from that god that they choose.

Consider the Sanctified One prestige class. Clerics that take it essentially make a choice to give up one or more casting levels to get deity-specific abilities in exchange. ACFs of the "give up spells per day/known in exchange for goodies" variety exist for all kinds of casting classes.

It seems that one could put a specialty priest together pretty easily from these various concepts. Grab a regular cleric, take away his spell list, and give him a bunch of his god's domain instead. To make up for the drastic loss of spells known, give him some powers related to his god. If you miss the cleric's day to day versatility, allow them to prepare and cast 1 spell every day from the general cleric list, sort of like a reverse domain.

[Elder_Basilisk]

A few options to get a little bit of the flavor of the 2e specialty clerics without reworking the whole system is to use the Pathfinder cleric. (You might need to make a few modifications if you are using 3.x; Pathfinder clerics are nerfed in a few ways but the biggest nerf was to a few spells like Divine Power and removing some non-core things like Divine feats. For the most part, using Pathfinder clerics in a 3.x game would end up being a net buff rather than a nerf). Pathfinder domains have special abilities attached to them which would go a long way towards giving the special ability type of flavor. And if you operate with a limited pantheon that has minimal overlapping domains, you would end up with special abilities that gave different priesthoods a different flavor.

For a step further down the line towards specialty priesthoods using Pathfinder rules, you might consider not only using Pathfinder archetypes but mandating their use in some cases. For example, in Greyhawk, all clerics of Heironeous might use the crusader archetype. Clerics of Boccob might use the ecclesitheurge archetype. You might run out of useful archetypes before you ran out of priesthoods, especially if you use an expansive pantheon with a lot of overlap like the Greyhawk pantheon (identifying exactly how different Mayaheine and Heironeous should be would be challenging for example). But done carefully, it would give you another mechanic for differentiating priesthoods.

[OldTrees1]

I think that yes clerics of different faiths should be mechanically differentiated by their class features. However I am weird in that I find spells to be the least interesting part of a spellcaster. :smallbiggrin:

[dascarletm]

What is the new god you added out of curiosity?

[nedz]

You could just create a suitable PrC for your new deity. Now low level clerics will be similar, except for the PrC pre-reqs, but ultimately they will be very different.

[Dr TPK]

What is the new god you added out of curiosity?

It's a deity of absolute successes and great mistakes; fumbles and criticals. That pretty much sums it all up. It's a recently-ascended demigod (Chaotic Neutral). The domain combination for a CN deity (Chaos, Luck, Destruction) should be highly unusual in any campaign setting. At least in my game it's unique.

[johnbragg]

It's a deity of absolute successes and great mistakes; fumbles and criticals. That pretty much sums it all up. It's a recently-ascended demigod (Chaotic Neutral). The domain combination for a CN deity (Chaos, Luck, Destruction) should be highly unusual in any campaign setting. At least in my game it's unique.

This is not thought through, but:

ACF: "Eschew the Ordinary." For any given D20 roll, PC flips a coin instead. Heads is a 20, tails is a 1. Replaces Turn Undead.

[Elder_Basilisk]

This is not thought through, but:

ACF: "Eschew the Ordinary." For any given D20 roll, PC flips a coin instead. Heads is a 20, tails is a 1. Replaces Turn Undead.

Definitely not thought through. Wield a scythe (or heavy pick). Power attack for max all the time. Still hit an ancient wyrm 50% of the time and confirm the crit a full 25% of the time.

Not that it's necessarily always advantageous but it's very advantageous in ways that are probably not good for a game which will generally work better if it doesn't turn into 25% hit rate rocket tag starting at level 1.

[johnbragg]

Definitely not thought through. Wield a scythe (or heavy pick). Power attack for max all the time. Still hit an ancient wyrm 50% of the time and confirm the crit a full 25% of the time.

Not that it's necessarily always advantageous but it's very advantageous in ways that are probably not good for a game which will generally work better if it doesn't turn into 25% hit rate rocket tag starting at level 1.

Ah. This is my fault. I didn't type what was in my head. Just like Turn Undead, this ability is available 3/day + CHA.

[Molosse]

It's a deity of absolute successes and great mistakes; fumbles and criticals. That pretty much sums it all up. It's a recently-ascended demigod (Chaotic Neutral). The domain combination for a CN deity (Chaos, Luck, Destruction) should be highly unusual in any campaign setting. At least in my game it's unique.

To restate the Pathfinder selection, domain abilities and domain spells go a decent way to differentiating different play-styles that clerics can rock. For example, taking only from your choices:

Granted Powers: You are infused with luck, and your mere presence can spread good fortune.

Bit of Luck (Sp): You can touch a willing creature as a standard action, giving it a bit of luck. For the next round, any time the target rolls a d20, he may roll twice and take the more favorable result. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

Good Fortune (Ex): At 6th level, as an immediate action, you can reroll any one d20 roll you have just made before the results of the roll are revealed. You must take the result of the reroll, even if it's worse than the original roll. You can use this ability once per day at 6th level, and one additional time per day for every six cleric levels beyond 6th.
Granted Powers: Your touch infuses life and weapons with chaos, and you revel in all things anarchic.

Touch of Chaos (Sp): You can imbue a target with chaos as a melee touch attack. For the next round, anytime the target rolls a d20, he must roll twice and take the less favorable result. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

Chaos Blade (Su): At 8th level, you can give a weapon touched the anarchic special weapon quality for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your cleric level. You can use this ability once per day at 8th level, and an additional time per day for every four levels beyond 8th.
Granted Powers: You revel in ruin and devastation, and can deliver particularly destructive attacks.

Destructive Smite (Su): You gain the destructive smite power: the supernatural ability to make a single melee attack with a morale bonus on damage rolls equal to 1/2 your cleric level (minimum 1). You must declare the destructive smite before making the attack. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

Destructive Aura (Su): At 8th level, you can emit a 30-foot aura of destruction for a number of rounds per day equal to your cleric level. All attacks made against targets in this aura (including you) gain a morale bonus on damage equal to 1/2 your cleric level and all critical threats are automatically confirmed. These rounds do not need to be consecutive.
With the way PF Clerics function you can grab two domains, or one with specific archetypes, and thus gain the above listed powers at the levels noted, as well as specific domain spells that have not been listed. Adds a bit of variety and hell, if you throw in the full PF class you can start taking advantage of Channeling and Variant Channeling for even more flavor.

[Ilikednd]

I've always thought that clerics should not all have wis as the key ability. For example, If a cleric serves a God of trickery, then maybe a key ability or charisma. Or if it serves a God of magic, a key ability of intelligence, wisdom, or charisma. To sum up, the spellcasting ability of a cleric should change by diety. They might also get a bonus to a physical ability. For example, if the God of trickery also uses stealth, a bonus to dexterity. Lastly, most dietys have a favored weapon, so maybe they should get a divine bonus when using this weapon
.

[Blackhawk748]

Kingdoms of Kalamar has something kind of like this. In Divine Masters of Tellene they have ACFs for all of the religions. As an example if you choose to be a Merciful Fate, a follower of the God of Mercy, your HD drops to d6, you lose Heavy Armor Prof and can only wield Bludgeoning Weapons. What you get in return is that all Conjuration Healing Spells are one level lower and a bunch of extra skills. Also i believe you get 4+ int mod skills.

The other ACFs are similar in power. The book is odd in the fact that its fairly well balanced for KoK. :smalltongue:

[Marlowe]

It's a deity of absolute successes and great mistakes; fumbles and criticals. That pretty much sums it all up. It's a recently-ascended demigod (Chaotic Neutral). The domain combination for a CN deity (Chaos, Luck, Destruction) should be highly unusual in any campaign setting. At least in my game it's unique.

Sounds like a The Lord Of Nightmares-lite.

[Yogibear41]

My DM has said in the past that one day, he plans to make a list of every spell that every deity grants, for example Deity X may not want his subjects casting flame strike so they can't prepare that spell. Suffice to say it would greatly reduce the power and versatility of cleric, but it would also better fit the flavor of certain deities, I also don't envy anyone taking the time to do that for every single spell. To be fair though it could potentially add to some deities spells that clerics don't normally get.

[johnbragg]

My DM has said in the past that one day, he plans to make a list of every spell that every deity grants, for example Deity X may not want his subjects casting flame strike so they can't prepare that spell. Suffice to say it would greatly reduce the power and versatility of cleric, but it would also better fit the flavor of certain deities, I also don't envy anyone taking the time to do that for every single spell. To be fair though it could potentially add to some deities spells that clerics don't normally get.

Something that would
1. go a far piece in that direction
2. Would also definitely limit cleric power while
3. being a much easier task
would be applying my Theophilite//Warrior idea.

The Theophilite ONLY gets domain spells, from four domains. So you're reduced to your deity's signature spells, plus a classic or two.

[Chronos]

One possibility I've pondered is to invert the cleric's spells-per-day table. That is, instead of getting a level-dependent number of ordinary spell slots plus one domain slot per level, you'd have a level-dependent number of domain slots plus one slot per level from the ordinary cleric list. So, for instance, a 6th-level cleric would be able to cast 3 first-level domain spells, 3 second-level domain spells, and 1 third-level domain spell per day, but could only prepare one ordinary cleric spell per level. This would definitely be a big nerf, of course, but given that they're currently T1, a nerf might not be that bad an idea.

[charcoalninja]

That's an awesome idea. Make it so that bonus spells for high wisdom are open slots for any spell and you're golden!

[Malimar]

I also enjoy Initiate feats as a way to differentiate clerics of various deities, but hardly anybody takes Initiate feats (unless they're trying to qualify for Planar Shepherd).

[Pex]

Way back when in the early days of 3.0 I tried this idea by regrouping cleric spells into the different Domains. The cleric still picked two Domains for their abilities but only got the spells for all the Domains of their deity. I made up an All Domain, no abilities, to group some spells like Cure Wounds and Summon Monster all clerics get. Some Domains got a lot more spells than others, and a few spells qualified to be in more than one Domain. The published deities would be given more Domains to allow the cleric a healthy spell list. As splat books came out with more spells, even after the 3.5 revision, it became more complicated. I finally concluded for myself that it was a nice idea on paper but too much involved in practice. Ease of play had to trump philosophical verisimilitude. Had the writers of the game done it themselves that would have been great, but I think they purposely chose to go the less complicated route than 2E spheres.

With bias, Pathfinder has developed a more specialized cleric system that you're probably looking for with their Oracles. Oracles choose and cast spells like Sorcerers using the Cleric spell list, so it is unlikely any two Oracles have the same spells. In addition, there are distinct Mysteries which provide abilities about the Mystery theme so that two Oracles of different Mysteries will play quite differently regardless of how similar they each chose their spells.

[Darth Ultron]

Yes, they should. Each and every cleric of each and every god should be 100% distinct and unique from each other. I have always done clerics like this, and loved the 2E way.

Feats and alternative class features can go a long way to making each cleric unique, but the best way is to add spells. A dozen or so unique spells per god gives a them all a very different feel.