Monstrous Humanoids or Beastmen?

[shadow_archmagi]

So, the "classic fantasy orc" is a rather large contradiction of terms. It's brutal, savage, and uncivilized, but also wildly outnumbers humans despite frequently occupying areas completely hostile to life. How does a race largely incapable of farming produce food on the scale required to fulfill their narrative role of 'scary horde?'

Some settings choose to make them capable of civilization so that they've got cities and ambassadors and farms and there's probably some orc population in every city. Elder Scrolls and Eberron take this route. Other settings choose to go further and make them wholly inhuman, like Dragon Age's darkspawn or 40k's Orks, where it's explained that they don't have farms because they don't need them.

Which route do you prefer, and if you prefer the 'fully inhuman' route, what are some of your favorite supernatural ecosystems that produce these monstrous hordes?

[AMFV]

So, the "classic fantasy orc" is a rather large contradiction of terms. It's brutal, savage, and uncivilized, but also wildly outnumbers humans despite frequently occupying areas completely hostile to life. How does a race largely incapable of farming produce food on the scale required to fulfill their narrative role of 'scary horde?'

Some settings choose to make them capable of civilization so that they've got cities and ambassadors and farms and there's probably some orc population in every city. Elder Scrolls and Eberron take this route. Other settings choose to go further and make them wholly inhuman, like Dragon Age's darkspawn or 40k's Orks, where it's explained that they don't have farms because they don't need them.

Which route do you prefer, and if you prefer the 'fully inhuman' route, what are some of your favorite supernatural ecosystems that produce these monstrous hordes?

Well the answer is that Orcs don't usually outnumber humanoids in terms of sheer population. In terms of population who are engaged in active military actions they do. If you have a country with 50,000 humans and roughly two percent of them are in the military (equal to the US, or slightly higher to be honest), then you have a military force of roughly 1,000. If you have an Orcish clan, with 4,000 members, half of whom are military aged males involved in military actions, then they still outnumber the human military 2 to 1, even though they only need to be able to support less than a tenth of the population.

[Beleriphon]

So, the "classic fantasy orc" is a rather large contradiction of terms. It's brutal, savage, and uncivilized, but also wildly outnumbers humans despite frequently occupying areas completely hostile to life. How does a race largely incapable of farming produce food on the scale required to fulfill their narrative role of 'scary horde?'

The same way any army on the move eats, they eat what they find. And with orcs that can include the local population of elves or halflings.

[Broken Crown]

So, the "classic fantasy orc" is a rather large contradiction of terms. It's brutal, savage, and uncivilized, but also wildly outnumbers humans despite frequently occupying areas completely hostile to life. How does a race largely incapable of farming produce food on the scale required to fulfill their narrative role of 'scary horde?'

THE "classic fantasy orc," i.e., the Tolkien orc, did it in part by means of excellent logistics: The Lord of the Rings contains a few references to the huge slave-worked farms of southern Mordor that supplied Sauron's armies so that they didn't all die while encamped in a poisoned desert. Most of Tolkien's orcs are full-time soldiers: They don't produce food because other people do it for them.

Meanwhile, the relatively habitable parts of Middle-Earth that we see are strangely depopulated, thus making the orc population much larger by comparison: For example, virtually nobody lives West of the Misty Mountains between Dunland and Bree. (There was a plague, but that was centuries in the past, and the population still hasn't recovered by the time the story takes place.)

Also, orcs are generally depicted as being a lot less fussy about what they eat than humans, elves, dwarves, or hobbits.

Many subsequent writers adopted the "huge hordes of orcs living in uninhabitable wastelands" tropes without thinking through the logistics of it.

---

In my own D&D setting, being able to survive in hostile environments is orcs' main schtick. Even so, they only exist in huge hordes intermittently: In good times, with plentiful food, they breed very rapidly, and the population explodes. Then, when things go back to normal, their own lands can't support them, so they invade their neighbours to avoid starvation. Most of the time, there just aren't enough orcs to conquer the more organized and advanced civilizations.

[Mastikator]

Orcs could use cannibalism as a form of population control when they run out of external sources of food. Tribes/Clans could start attacking other clans/tribes and eat the slain ones, not only does sweet delicious orc meat provide nourishment but also now there are fewer orcs in need of eating.

[Harbinger]

Agriculture isn't the only method of sustaining a populations. In real life history, a lot of cultures like the Mongols, Huns, and Xiongnu were able to raise up massive armies in areas where crops couldn't grow because they operated as pastoral nomads. Basically, they were able to raise livestock which were able to survive by grazing on the grass which could grow better than anything humans could eat, allowing them to have a population much larger than any hunter-gatherer society could sustain. Honestly, I feel like a society likes that makes more sense for orcs than anything else. Almost all orcs in any campaign I run are pastoral nomads, and usually have their culture based on one or all of the real life nomad civilizations.

[AMFV]

Agriculture isn't the only method of sustaining a populations. In real life history, a lot of cultures like the Mongols, Huns, and Xiongnu were able to raise up massive armies in areas where crops couldn't grow because they operated as pastoral nomads. Basically, they were able to raise livestock which were able to survive by grazing on the grass which could grow better than anything humans could eat, allowing them to have a population much larger than any hunter-gatherer society could sustain. Honestly, I feel like a society likes that makes more sense for orcs than anything else. Almost all orcs in any campaign I run are pastoral nomads, and usually have their culture based on one or all of the real life nomad civilizations.

One pretty good reference point is the Plains Tribes, who were originally almost totally dedicated to subsistence, but when they got horses they developed into an extremely warlike society. Some societies start to develop towards agriculture and industry at that point and other societies need other outlets. Once Orcish societies no longer have issues with food, they tend to become expansionist and warlike.

Edit: Some of them probably do, I'm speaking in hypotheticals.

[Steampunkette]

The above posters have it right with a further addendum.

Orcs in popular culture are typically tribal, and when they go to war it involves some charismatic or powerful leader forcing cooperation between disparate groups, each of which presumably has it's own means of survival.

Further, there generally isn't a gender or age division described. While on the human side there almost always is. Many assume that means only masculine Orcs go to war, but it's a culturally informed bias and not accurate by default.

[AMFV]

The above posters have it right with a further addendum.

Orcs in popular culture are typically tribal, and when they go to war it involves some charismatic or powerful leader forcing cooperation between disparate groups, each of which presumably has it's own means of survival.

Further, there generally isn't a gender or age division described. While on the human side there almost always is. Many assume that means only masculine Orcs go to war, but it's a culturally informed bias and not accurate by default.

True, although that depends on the degree of sexual dimporphism in Orcs and in the degree of fantasy realism in your setting. It's also possible that there is a much larger number of masculine Orcs than feminine (which may be why there are so many Half-Orcs about). Also the high rate of Mortality in Orcish societies likely prevent there being as many elderly people to care for.

[Cealocanth]

True, although that depends on the degree of sexual dimporphism in Orcs and in the degree of fantasy realism in your setting. It's also possible that there is a much larger number of masculine Orcs than feminine (which may be why there are so many Half-Orcs about). Also the high rate of Mortality in Orcish societies likely prevent there being as many elderly people to care for.

That raises an interesting idea. What if orcs operate very differently than most mammals? What if they are a massive society of workers and warriors operating all around a central 'queen' figure like most hive insects. This would explain why they don't seem to care very much if other orcs die. It would also explain why they do so much raiding and pillaging. Food and resources must be stockpiled and collected to keep the queen alive. Who cares if a hundred orcs starve to death, or a thousand are slaughtered in a war with the humans. If they collected food for the queen, then they'll just make more.

Kind of a scary thought if you get into the deeper questions of the hypothetical, but still, interesting.

[goto124]

Queen ants and bees can produce enough ants/bees to sustain the population.

For orcs, you'll need a large enough set of female orcs to do the reproduction.

[Broken Crown]

For orcs, you'll need a large enough set of female orcs to do the reproduction.

Or one very large, very monstrous queen orc.

[VoxRationis]

Agriculture isn't the only method of sustaining a populations. In real life history, a lot of cultures like the Mongols, Huns, and Xiongnu were able to raise up massive armies in areas where crops couldn't grow because they operated as pastoral nomads. Basically, they were able to raise livestock which were able to survive by grazing on the grass which could grow better than anything humans could eat, allowing them to have a population much larger than any hunter-gatherer society could sustain. Honestly, I feel like a society likes that makes more sense for orcs than anything else. Almost all orcs in any campaign I run are pastoral nomads, and usually have their culture based on one or all of the real life nomad civilizations.

"Massive." In comparison to agricultural populations, such tribes (at least in their native lands) were tiny; superior concentration of force (as in an entire culture leaving its expansive native lands to converge on a comparatively small area) led to the illusion of numerical strength and accorded them "Horde" status. There's a pretty hard limit on the bioproductivity of the steppes, and though the Mongols have adapted well to it, after a while, you can't get around it.

[Grim Portent]

Queen ants and bees can produce enough ants/bees to sustain the population.

For orcs, you'll need a large enough set of female orcs to do the reproduction.


Or one very large, very monstrous queen orc.

Naked Mole Rats have Queens that birth quite large colonies. They would serve as a good starting point for this kind of thing.

If each orc clan has one queen that gives birth to a large number of female orc drones who are kept infertile by pheremones/hormones from the queen, and a few male breeders they barter to other queens you could have a large population that can die with no repercussions (infertile females), doesn't get wiped out when the queens die (as the drones are no longer kept infertile they would become queens), breeds fairly rapidly, has bonds between clans and possesses a rather alien mindset to that of humans.

Of course baby orcs would need to be born very small, mature rapidly and be able to survive off something other than milk quite quickly, since that's part of why NMRs can maintain a eusocial society despite being mammals.

[goto124]

Orcs are now rat-sized?

[Broken Crown]

Really BIG rats.

[MrStabby]

I do like the idea of war as a means of population control.

1) Live off land/nomadic hers and generate food surplus
2) Increase population
3) Exceed carying capacity of land
4) Swarm to move to new pastures, fighting existing occupants
5) Die to armies and adventurers
6) GoTo 1.

[Grim Portent]

Orcs are now rat-sized?

Not necessarily, though mass breeding orcs would probably make the most sense at goblin size or smaller. If the queens were the size of ogres say, they could birth a large number of offspring the size of a baseball easily. If they had enough nipples to suckle them all simultaneously and had energy rich milk like a caribou or whale the young could have a very fast maturation rate assuming the suppressants that keep the drones from being fertile prevent them from wasting energy on certain bodily functions (like a matured reproductive system) in favour of growing faster.

Though by this point you've gone so far away from the traditional depiction of an orc that you've basically left them far behind and should just use a different name.


Personally I favour the original depiction and make orcs similar to those of Tolkien when I use them. A large militarized society based on advancement through strength and cunning, fed by a much larger slave population and led by more powerful beings with a supernatural nature and a drive to conquer.

[goto124]

Naked mole orcs.

Also, we're talking only anout what goes on behins the scenes. The outward behaviors of "raid burn pillage roar" remain the same.

[Grim Portent]

Naked mole orcs.

Also, we're talking only anout what goes on behins the scenes. The outward behaviors of "raid burn pillage roar" remain the same.

The fact that all orcish raiders are goblin sized females with 8 or more nipples would probably be quite noticeable. :smalltongue:

[Beleriphon]

I've always liked the WH40K ork who is actually a sapient fungus with a psychic field around that makes technology work even though it really shouldn't. Also, because ork currency is teef, and there's only one way to get more teef.

[JAL_1138]

It didn't go over tremendously well because the players in that group preferred classic Always Chaotic Evil opponents and didn't like me screwing around with established lore on the various deities (and history, geography, and demographics in general) the way I did, but I had one variant setting where the average Orcs were pretty much ordinary folk who weren't particularly different than anyone else aside from looks and language, who were at war with Gruumsh-cultists. In that setting, Gruumsh-followers were a group of religious fanatics following an upstart evil god (who was very definitely not the true creator-god of the orcs) and who killed or converted-at-swordpoint more Orcs than they did humans or other races, despite their "orcs are racially superior" beliefs. Many human and demihuman nations had large refugee populations, and were very closely economically, politically, and militarily allied with the few remaining non-Gruumshan Orc nations. Generally speaking, if you spoke Orcish you wouldn't feel *particularly* out-of-place in an Orcish country, at least not any more than, for instance, an American who spoke fluent Russian would feel out-of-place in Moscow. (Generally speaking in that setting, if it wasn't a planar creature of some stripe and it could talk, it could be of any alignment and was probably just trying to make a living like anyone else.)

The players favored a more classic approach, nothing wrong with that of course, and it was quickly abandoned in favor of the "Queen of the Spiders" module.

[AMFV]

I do like the idea of war as a means of population control.

1) Live off land/nomadic hers and generate food surplus
2) Increase population
3) Exceed carying capacity of land
4) Swarm to move to new pastures, fighting existing occupants
5) Die to armies and adventurers
6) GoTo 1.

And again, the more folks you have engaged in military actions, the larger army you can field supported by a smaller populace. That's why North Korea has such a huge army with a tiny population (although that has drawbacks).

[Harbinger]

"Massive." In comparison to agricultural populations, such tribes (at least in their native lands) were tiny; superior concentration of force (as in an entire culture leaving its expansive native lands to converge on a comparatively small area) led to the illusion of numerical strength and accorded them "Horde" status. There's a pretty hard limit on the bioproductivity of the steppes, and though the Mongols have adapted well to it, after a while, you can't get around it.

Oh, yeah of course the Mongol's pastoral nomadism wasn't able to sustain as big a population as their agricultural counterparts. In comparison to a hunter gatherer society though, which orcs are often portrayed as, their population was pretty large.

[AMFV]

Oh, yeah of course the Mongol's pastoral nomadism wasn't able to sustain as big a population as their agricultural counterparts. In comparison to a hunter gatherer society though, which orcs are often portrayed as, their population was pretty large.

To be absolutely fair, it's uncommon for fantasy stuff to discuss any kind of logistics at all. Particularly where Orcs are concerned. We don't really see them gathering or hunting (except for hunting humans) and their food sources are kept largely a mystery.

Which also gives some interesting solutions to the problem. Maybe the Orcs worship a demon war god who provides them with food, but only if they kill enough enemies. So maybe for them, the warfare is how they sustain themselves which is why such a large population can be focused on warfare without crashing.

Also of note, most Orc hordes tend to only exist for an exceedingly brief period (typically one campaign [a military one, not a D&D one]). That's a very short period to need to sustain that population before it crashes again.

[Talakeal]

I would go with Warhammers solution and make them green and photosynthetic.

[AMFV]

I would go with Warhammers solution and make them green and photosynthetic.

Well that's actually even less realistic to be fair than the Hunter Gatherers can sustain a population of tens of thousands. There's a reason that plants move around a whole lot less than people are substantively larger. Photosynthesis is less efficient than consuming fuel, and requires that you be huge.

Not saying that it isn't an interesting idea, but W40K is already not trying for realism in any sense of the word. Since the complaint here was with realism, we would have to look at solutions that are more realistic.

An examination of this can be seen in one of Randall Monroe's (of XKCD fame) what-if articles where he discusses photosynthetic cows.

[Wardog]

"Massive." In comparison to agricultural populations, such tribes (at least in their native lands) were tiny; superior concentration of force (as in an entire culture leaving its expansive native lands to converge on a comparatively small area) led to the illusion of numerical strength and accorded them "Horde" status. There's a pretty hard limit on the bioproductivity of the steppes, and though the Mongols have adapted well to it, after a while, you can't get around it.

As an aside, "horde" comes from the Turkic / Mongol word for an army or camp. It's because they looked so big and impressive that we ended up using it to mean a huge mass of people.

[ngilop]

I always took Orcs to be akin to real world ancient scandinavians.

Yeah they survive in climates the 'civilized' world consider inhospitable , but they are hardyl thriving.

And every couple of generations or so their population grows too big to support.. so a-pillaging they go.

Not only does this have a direct impact on them in regards to how keep themselves fed.. but it explains why they do these huge en massed invasions every so often. and why Orc are mostly played as Chaotic stupid with a big axe


this goes to the whole Orcen philosophy that the strong survive and such. as only the stronger warriors make it back and pass on their superior blood to the next generation thereby making it stronger. The idea becomes not one of conquest but it quickly degenerates into who can do the most death, damage, and destruction. Because the guy that killed 3 Elven warriors, a horse, kick a kitten, and burnt down a house is going to get more women and orc praise than the guy who only killed 1 elf and destroyed a grain mill. even if said grain mill was the largest one in the realm and will hurt the food supply for the elvs for a couple of decades to come.

hopefully you were able to follow that.