new character: Goliath barbarian starting at lv 13

[dehro]

once again, my character has suffered a terrible demise on account of having been abbandoned by his fellow partners.

I was strongly advised that my gaming style would suit a barbarian well. I'm game for the experiment and am moving within the following constraints and concepts.
rolls have been somewhat lucky: 17, 16, 16, 13, 9, 5 (I'm thinking charisma will have to bite it, like with most of my characters).
I want to play a straight up barbarian, no prestige classes (at least not yet), no deviations or dips in other classes.
I would like to play a Goliath.
I have access to items from the core books and from the Magic item compendium. I have access to all feats from all official material except dragon magazine (I might be able to sneak in one or two from there, but they'd have to be negotiated).
the idea is to grab either a goliath greathammer or a greatsword, maybe large or even huge (although it would cost me a feat to get to huge, so maybe not worth it?).. and pummel anything that looks like an enemy.
I have been looking at the goliath barbarian variants from RoS.. are those levels worth taking?
in other words, I could use some help with the build, feat selection and such...
I'd rather not suffer any LA beyond the -1 for Goliath.

thank you in advance.

[OldTrees1]

Mountain Rage(Goliath Barbarian 1) is amazing! The other levels are neither here nor there so either way is fine.

Knockback is a great feat(made all the better when in Mountain Rage). It synergies well with Combat Reflexes(If you get 14 Dex which is easily doable despite the racial penalty).

I would suggest Wolf Totem Barbarian and Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian alternate class features for Improved Trip and Pounce.


For items
The Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) would encourage a Scout's Headband and a Winged Mask.

[Kraken]

Are you really sure that you want to have that many levels of barbarian? In my opinion, barbarian is only worth it for one level, or two if you trade uncanny dodge for improved trip (Unearthed Arcana allows this). I would rather just take the extra rage feat (Complete Warrior), which would allow you to rage 3 times per day, which will generally be sufficient, though you can take it a second time if you think you'll need to rage 5 times a day frequently. I would pad out the rest of your levels with fighter, warblade, or crusader, until you ultimately prestige class into something. Off the top of my head, prestige classes that might interest you are wildrunner (Races of the Wild), fist of the forest (Complete Champion), frenzied berserker (Complete Champion, use of this might cause your party to hate you), pious templar (Complete Divine), and champion of Gwynharf (I probably spelled it wrong, Book of Exalted Deeds). You might also enjoy becoming a dragonborn, a template from Races of the Dragon. Goliaths are an excellent candidate for becoming dragonborn.

[Endril_69]

I'm working on a goliath barbarian too, and his level just happens to be 13. The rules we're using are pretty much the same as yours.

I'm glad someone mentioned the improved trip variant from unearthed arcana here. I had forgotten about it. As long as my DM is cool with me having both a wolf and lion totem (from different features, but maybe they'll have to make sense together?), I'll take that. I want a character that will use a mancatcher to trip people, then grapple them, and possibly stun them or slam them into a wall.

But as for your character, you're getting some good advice here. A 2 level dip in barbarian is plenty; +1 to the guy that suggested taking extra rage.

If you want to just deal damage, multiplying power attack is the way to go. Look at "leap attack" in the complete adventurer. It goes great with pounce (using lion totem to make a full attack with a charge). These also combine greatly with "shock trooper" from complete warrior, because you can lower your AC to fuel power attack, so you won't have to worry about missing.

Another way to multiply power attack damage is by taking "frenzied berzerker" levels from the complete warrior. The obvious downside to this is berzerkers have this nasty habit of turning on the party. Some people get around this by going to a secluded area at the beginning of the day and using all of their frenzies. Not having the +6 str isn't going to kill you, and the extra attack can be made up for with haste. The only thing I would miss is deathless frenzy. But using this tactic may seem pretty cheezy, and you might find the DM putting innocent people in your path when you're trying to burn through your frenzies. Another way to avoid killing your friends is keeping them out of reach when you full attack, and always having the manuever "iron heart surge" from tome of battle, ready. On your next turn after the bad guys are dead, just surge your frenzy away. One level in Warblade after you have 8 levels in other classes is all you need to do this.

As for what weapon, I think people put too much importance on how much damage their weapon does. You can do 78 damage just from power attack (with multipliers) and 22 extra damage just from strength, so I don't see why it's important to burn a feat to do an extra 2-3 points of weapon damage. I'd probably use a falchion because multiplying all that on a crit is just silly. A greatsword is fine too. If you're not going to be a berzerker, I'd use a reach weapon. If you want to trip people, use a trip weapon. Spike chain does both and allows you to threaten people near you, but it requires a profiency feat. Another option is to take the "short haft" feat, but then spiked chain is better imo.

If you're going to take "knockback" from races of stone as someone suggested, I'd take a look at "dungeoncrusher" variant from dungeonscape. That way, if you knock them back into a wall, you'll do an extra 8d6+ 3x your strength, in addition to your weapon damage, per hit. However, it will be difficult to find room for that if you go berzerker, so it just depends on if you want to try to do damage that way or by multiplying power attack more.

[Aleolus]

If you're wanting to max out Strength for this guy, then absolutely take Mountain Rage. In addition, see if your DM is willing to permit you to tack on the Half-Dragon template for an extra +8, as well as a number of other useful abilities. Then find out if he is willing to let Powerful Build qualify you foe feats/PrCs as though you were Large (by RAW no, but some DMs may permit it). If he's willing to go for that then branch into the War Hulk PrC (Miniatures Handbook) asap. Getting a +2 Str every level means soon your Str will be on par with the Gods

[daremetoidareyo]

I'm glad someone mentioned the improved trip variant from unearthed arcana here. I had forgotten about it. As long as my DM is cool with me having both a wolf and lion totem (from different features, but maybe they'll have to make sense together?), I'll take that. I want a character that will use a mancatcher to trip people, then grapple them, and possibly stun them or slam them into a wall.

It really shouldn't matter, but some DMs don't like how the intent of the totem barbarian is hurt by switching totems. The easiest argument around this is taking a 2 level totemist dip. Totems are like totally your thing by then.

[Hal0Badger]

once again, my character has suffered a terrible demise on account of having been abbandoned by his fellow partners.

I was strongly advised that my gaming style would suit a barbarian well. I'm game for the experiment and am moving within the following constraints and concepts.
rolls have been somewhat lucky: 17, 16, 16, 13, 9, 5 (I'm thinking charisma will have to bite it, like with most of my characters).
I want to play a straight up barbarian, no prestige classes (at least not yet), no deviations or dips in other classes.
I would like to play a Goliath.
I have access to items from the core books and from the Magic item compendium. I have access to all feats from all official material except dragon magazine (I might be able to sneak in one or two from there, but they'd have to be negotiated).
the idea is to grab either a goliath greathammer or a greatsword, maybe large or even huge (although it would cost me a feat to get to huge, so maybe not worth it?).. and pummel anything that looks like an enemy.
I have been looking at the goliath barbarian variants from RoS.. are those levels worth taking?
in other words, I could use some help with the build, feat selection and such...
I'd rather not suffer any LA beyond the -1 for Goliath.

thank you in advance.

Can you tell the optimization level of your game, as well as if you have a general concept in your head?

Lion totem whirling frenzy yada yada... will be mentioned here, so I will mention low-optimization or flavor options:

11 Level barbarian gives you greater rage. Not amazing, but still something. Combined with mountain rage variant, you are looking at a +8 str +6 con -2 ac when you rage, as well as a natural reach of 10. If you get a reach weapon and somehow go with tripping build, Reckless Rage gives you another +2 str and +2 con in the expense of -2 armor, and well, a feat slot. Not amazing, but decent in low-opt. games, also can add some flavor.

If you want the trip without the combat expertise, you may take Wolf Berserker *feat* to qualify for Improved trip, though it is a region feat. However, work with your DM. It is not like the best choice out there, especially when there is a better ACF.

Mad-foam rager is a very solid feat choice in terms of defense.

You might want to replenish your health on your own, since HP from the extra con is not temporary HP, and might actually kill you when the rage ends. Crystals of life drinking (greater) would return 5 hp per hit, up to 50 points of hp. If you land many attacks in 1 turn, it can be considered. Another item for life drain is Vampiric Torc (5k gold, MiC), it allows you to drain half of the damage you deal with one attack, twice per day. Best part is, it does not check the opponent, so works on constructs or undead as well.

Another damage mitigation item is Bear Helm (MiC), allows you to take half damage from 1 critical damage or sneak attack once per day while you are raging. Ask for item stacking rules, if DM allows get more uses with more gold.

If you are going charger route, Boots of the battle charger (MiC) can work as well. Torc of Titans gives +5 to str checks and weapon damages for 1 round, 3 times per day. Can be useful if you use combat maneuvers like trip, bull-rush etc. With the addition of massive strength score, tripping a huge dragon is not out of the game for a goliath barbarian :) .

All mentioned items can be used while you are raging.

For levels, eventhough I do not see barbarian as a dip class, you might want to consider taking some fighter levels to get some combative feats. An unarmed dungeon crashing goliath barbarian/fighter, may not sound very optimized, but would look cool as hell. And you can actually make the grapple work with that kind of build.


None of those suggestion are from the point of optimization. These are, at best, sub-bar options. Others will direct you to better choices which are repeated a thousand times, I just wanted to add some more options and flavor.

[dehro]

The DM is not going to allow anything that reeks of too much ptimisation and is definitely going to ban anything that counts on flimsy/debatable interpretations of the rules to fit together.
We tend to face big monsters that make tripping not the best of strategies and who have massive grapple stats. If I was to give in to metagaming I'd go for the goliath liberator, what with our next adversaries being a bunch of giants... But as I said, that would be brutal metagaming.
Totemist is also unlikely to be accepted, mostly because it would force both me and the DM to learn a whole bunch of stuff we have never used or tackled before, like soulmelds... Also, I'm reading it's charisma based, which would mean if have to put the 5 on another stat, and that seems unhealthy.
UA in general is a touchy subject as sources go.
Yes, I do intend to stick to barbarian all the way, at most allowing for a variant or two, maybe a prestige class later on, if I'll ever get there.
The party includes a beguiler, a cleric, a paladin, a bard and a caster that will be introduced along with my new character.
One or two may have chosen a prestige class, but other than that, optimisation lies primarily in the choice of feats that mesh well together.
Is lion totem different from spirit lion totem? Where can I read up on the latter?
Damage dealing (and taking, I guess) is what I figure I'll end up doing mostly.

[Aleolus]

Totemist is Con based, not Cha. The only class in MoI that needs much Cha is the Soulborn

[J-H]

If you go with a bludgeoning weapon (goliath greathammer), pick up Brutal Strike from PHB2. If you're using Power Attack, your target has to make a Fort Save (DC 10+added PA damage) or be sickened for 1 round, which gives him -2 to basically everything.

If you pick up the Spot the Weak Point skill trick from CS, you can use a Spot check to make one attack per encounter a touch attack. Pump that PA damage up and force a DC 30 or 40 save - especially if combined with Shock Trooper. It would also synergize well with that Leap Attack (?) feat that gives you extra damage from Power Attack.

If you do pick up Improved Trip, Knockdown is a nice feat (it's on the SRD in the Divine section, but it's a general feat). Any time you do 10 or more damage to an opponent, you get a free trip check.

The Mage Hunter feats (from CW or CArc?) are nice - pierce magical concealment, destroy magical AC buffs (mage armor, shield, etc.) but you probably won't have a lot of feats to go around.

I like the Occult Slayer PRC too... a couple of times per day you can just send a spell back at the caster.

[OldTrees1]

We tend to face big monsters that make tripping not the best of strategies and who have massive grapple stats.

Is lion totem different from spirit lion totem? Where can I read up on the latter?
Damage dealing (and taking, I guess) is what I figure I'll end up doing mostly.

Goliath Barbarians tend to have strength checks that can rival giants. (16 base +8 rage +4 HD +4 belt = 32 Str, +11 str +4 size +4 feat = +19 modifier vs +16 of a Stone Giant).

Spirit Lion Totem(found in Complete Champion) trades away Fast Movement in exchange for Pounce(charge now does a full attack rather than a single attack).

[Kraken]

Regarding adding lion and wolf totems together, there's plenty of examples in history of cultures worshiping multiple different animal spirits. Selecting two as your favored spirits from a pantheon isn't at all farfetched, if you're going to wear armor you could have one shoulder be decorated with a lion head and the other decorated with a wolf head.

If you're set on sticking with barbarian as your only base class, I would still get out as soon as possible. Champion of Gwynharf would even continue your rage progression and give you equivalent or better bonuses to saves and DR than what you'd get out of straight barbarian, so if you get out of barbarian after level 6, you're only losing trap sense progression, which can only barely be considered a loss. The things champion of Gwynharf gives you are way better than what you lose, though knight of the stars is an annoying feat tax to enter the class. Other prestige classes compare favorably as well, this is just one example. So I guess I'd ask why prestige later, versus now?

[Endril_69]

The DM is not going to allow anything that reeks of too much ptimisation and is definitely going to ban anything that counts on flimsy/debatable interpretations of the rules to fit together.
We tend to face big monsters that make tripping not the best of strategies and who have massive grapple stats. If I was to give in to metagaming I'd go for the goliath liberator, what with our next adversaries being a bunch of giants... But as I said, that would be brutal metagaming.
Totemist is also unlikely to be accepted, mostly because it would force both me and the DM to learn a whole bunch of stuff we have never used or tackled before, like soulmelds... Also, I'm reading it's charisma based, which would mean if have to put the 5 on another stat, and that seems unhealthy.
UA in general is a touchy subject as sources go.
Yes, I do intend to stick to barbarian all the way, at most allowing for a variant or two, maybe a prestige class later on, if I'll ever get there.
The party includes a beguiler, a cleric, a paladin, a bard and a caster that will be introduced along with my new character.
One or two may have chosen a prestige class, but other than that, optimisation lies primarily in the choice of feats that mesh well together.
Is lion totem different from spirit lion totem? Where can I read up on the latter?
Damage dealing (and taking, I guess) is what I figure I'll end up doing mostly.

If you optimize enough, you can probably still trip, grapple, or knockback huge opponents (+4 from feats, large size, str increases, etc), but if you're worried about them being stronger than you or bigger than huge, you can always try plan A: do damage greater than their HP. So then the question is, how much damage do you want to do?

Most of the suggestions presented to you that I've seen aren't using flimsy interpretations. I think the easiest, most direct way to do a lot of damage is just mix pounce and leap attack. And if you don't want to miss, use the heedless charge tactic from the shocktrooper feat. You can get pounce from the lion spirit totem. If that's the one you were asking about, it's in the complete champion (p 46), and it just replaces your +10 ft movement speed. Pounce gives you full attack on a charge. Then take leap attack from complete adventurer (p 110). Now, if you power attack for 13, you'll deal an extra 39 damage instead of an extra 26. Being able to pounce means you can do this 3-4 times. And rather than take -13 to hit, take -13 to your AC with heedless charge. By my math, you'll probably have +25 to hit (+10 str, +13 BAB, -1 large, +3 weapon), so you shouldn't miss. Shocktrooper is in complete warrior (p 112). Using all this, you'll probably average 64 damage per hit with a greatsword. I honestly don't think that's a lot considering what a spellcaster at the same level can do; even just using the PHB. Their utility is amazing; being able to fly, teleport, etc; and they can be just as deadly because they can put groups of enemies at a time out of combat if they fail a saving throw. It's your job to do damage, so that much doesn't seem excessive. And if you want to know how to do more, the people here can help you with that.

Dipping a bit into fighter doesn't hurt either. Getting 3 feats from 4 levels is nice, and the weapon mastery tree (PHB II) isn't bad either. If you want a bit of fluff, there are other options for that too. For example, the ACF on page 8 of dungeonscape allows Barbarians to find and disarm traps.

[Hal0Badger]

If you want to go pure barbarian here are some more suggestions:

You might want to check this (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)
Ferocity; a rage variant I use in my barbarian/fighter builds, +4 str +4 dex, immediate action (so you can use it to buff your reflex/AC), -2 to ranged attacks. This rage variant actually grants AC. I do not suggest this with a goliath though.

Skilled City Dweller: You can replace survival for tumble, a more combat oriented skill.

Street Fighter: Replaces DR and gives pretty neat charge abilities. I mean, this should be default barbarian feature instead of an ACF in my eyes. More diversed and possibility opener compared to boring */-, which increases in a pathetic scale.

Instantaneous Rage: Allows you to enter rage, as a free action in others turn. Can be a life saver.

Mad Foam Rager: Another life saver, and works with instantaneous rage.

These are non-optimized, almost stand-alone suggestions, so they should be okay in your campaign.

People suggested Champion of Gwynharf. Another solid choice is Runescarred Berserker. Requires 3 feat to enter, but allows a minor spellcasting, from a very good list. And the way you cast spells are actually very cool: You carve magical runes on your skin, which you use as a scroll later on to cast the spell. It has other benefits as well. It is a regional PRC, but talk to your DM to work it out. A lot more fun than being an uber-charger.

Goliath, thanks to powerful build and easily achievable very high strength stat, has no problem using his combat manuevers against monster other than humanoid or large sized. Do not be afraid to add them to your arsenal.

[dehro]

I am liking the concept of the Runescarred berserker a lot and it seems to fit nicely, fluff-wise, with a Goliath...

so.. if I were to pick the barbarian->runescarred berserker path... how would I go about making it a decent one given my starting stats?

[OldTrees1]

I am liking the concept of the Runescarred berserker a lot and it seems to fit nicely, fluff-wise, with a Goliath...

so.. if I were to pick the barbarian->runescarred berserker path... how would I go about making it a decent one given my starting stats?

17 Str, 16 Con, 16 Dex, 13 Wis, 9 Int, 5 Cha (boost Wis twice by Runescarred Berserker 10)
or
17 Str, 16 Con, 16 Int, 13 Wis, 9 Dex, 5 Cha (boost Wis twice by Runescarred Berserker 10)
depending on if you take Combat Reflexes or not

[dehro]

I am trying to see why I should take Combat reflexes.. We very rarely are in a position where I would get to fight multiple retreating enemies.. They tend to do the chasing and pressing. I see it's a prerequisite for plenty of things.. is one of them something that I shouldn't miss out on?
Side question.. Does the act of carving runes mean the character gains literacy? I'm guessing not, but you never know.

[OldTrees1]

I am trying to see why I should take Combat reflexes.. We very rarely are in a position where I would get to fight multiple retreating enemies.. They tend to do the chasing and pressing. I see it's a prerequisite for plenty of things.. is one of them something that I shouldn't miss out on?
Side question.. Does the act of carving runes mean the character gains literacy? I'm guessing not, but you never know.

Combat Reflexes punishes or restricts the opponents for their tactical movement(chasing and pressing usually trigger AoOs) for the cost of a single feat. Add in Knockback and you can interrupt your opponent's plans. Add Robilar's Gambit to get double your attacks per round (since 1+Dex mod AoOs should be roughly equal to your full attack).

Although with your stats you would have to miss out on one of Dex, Int, or Wis. So it is not a clear cut choice IMO.


Gaining a level in any class other than Barbarian or Totemist grants you literacy.

[Endril_69]

I am trying to see why I should take Combat reflexes.. We very rarely are in a position where I would get to fight multiple retreating enemies.. They tend to do the chasing and pressing. I see it's a prerequisite for plenty of things.. is one of them something that I shouldn't miss out on?
Side question.. Does the act of carving runes mean the character gains literacy? I'm guessing not, but you never know.

Combat reflexes is good if you have reach. If you have a reach weapon and use mountain rage, then you'll get an AoO any time they try to get closer than 20' to you. Combat reflexes also allows you to make AoO's when you're flat footed.

Not sure what you mean by carving runes, but in addition to taking another class as mentioned, you can spend 2 skill points to gain literacy.

[Hal0Badger]

I am trying to see why I should take Combat reflexes.. We very rarely are in a position where I would get to fight multiple retreating enemies.. They tend to do the chasing and pressing. I see it's a prerequisite for plenty of things.. is one of them something that I shouldn't miss out on?
Side question.. Does the act of carving runes mean the character gains literacy? I'm guessing not, but you never know.

It is good if you build around it, especially needs another lock-down feat (like improved trip or stand still). But judging on what I understand from your direction, you do not intend to build like this, so it is will not be as good as on your character.

Scarring does not grant literacy. Imagine them being symbolic runes, rather than a real language for a scroll. Like a big circle for cure moderate wounds or something.

[dehro]

Combat reflexes is good if you have reach. If you have a reach weapon and use mountain rage, then you'll get an AoO any time they try to get closer than 20' to you.

I was under the impression that AoOs were given only by opponents leaving the threatened are, not as they walk into it.

[Endril_69]

I was under the impression that AoOs were given only by opponents leaving the threatened are, not as they walk into it.

You're correct, but so was my statement. If you are large (from mountain rage) and using a reach weapon, your reach becomes 20 feet. When they are 20 feet away from you, they're in your threat range. When they move one square closer, they provoke.

[OldTrees1]

I was under the impression that AoOs were given only by opponents leaving the threatened area, not as they walk into it.

No, unlike 5E, in 3E AoOs are given when opponents leave a threatened square. This includes moving towards you, strafing you, or backing up away from you because all of those cases include them leaving a threatened square.

Of course there are ways to get even more things to provoke(like Robilar's Gambit meaning attacking you provokes an AoO).

[dehro]

I think we've always played it as "threatened area" not as a threatened square, meaning that it only counts when the opponent is leaving the threatened area as a whole, not if he moves about inside it. Whether that's a houserule or a misinterpretation of the rules (or a change in the rules brought forth by the translation in Italian), it's not something I can start arguing against after several years of playing it that way.

That said, I'm very confused by the whole bullrushing thing, which I've never actually applied as a melee strategy...even more so with knockback ... I get that it's very situational but, I am having a hard time making it work in a basic situation, or even a more elaborate one.
Say I'm alone, facing a single opponent in an open space (not such a remote possibility, given how melee group strategies seem to never come into play in our games)...
I have a full attack round, meaning 3 strikes. I would have to strike him twice and then hope to land the third strike (in my experience a rare occurrence, our foes tend to have massive AC) in order to knock him back.. Because if I did it on the first attack I'd push him out of the reach of my two-handed weapon (I'm thinking of using a great hammer or greatsword)..wasting at least one more chance at doing damage.
Either way.. Let's say I manage to bullrush him back 5 feet...Whether as part of landing a power attack or by shoving him..All he needs to do is to take a 5ft step back and deliver a full attack like I hadn't pushed him away at all.
So... Why bother investing two feats (improved bullrush and knockback) to obtain a possible advantage that is very situational and counts on the opponent not having dimension door, wings, half a dozen legs, size advantage, very high strength, or another half a dozen things that routinely crop up with our opponents?
I must be missing a key aspect of the strategy, or must have left out another effect of the bullrush, or is there yet another feat that would make this actually become so very useful as everybody seems to find it?

[OldTrees1]

I think we've always played it as "threatened area" not as a threatened square, meaning that it only counts when the opponent is leaving the threatened area as a whole, not if he moves about inside it. Whether that's a houserule or a misinterpretation of the rules (or a change in the rules brought forth by the translation in Italian), it's not something I can start arguing against after several years of playing it that way.
In that case, only consider combat reflexes if you want robilar's gambit (2 feats to get 1+Dex counterattacks per round).


That said, I'm very confused by the whole bullrushing thing, which I've never actually applied as a melee strategy...even more so with knockback ... I get that it's very situational but, I am having a hard time making it work in a basic situation, or even a more elaborate one.
Say I'm alone, facing a single opponent in an open space (not such a remote possibility, given how melee group strategies seem to never come into play in our games)...
I have a full attack round, meaning 3 strikes. I would have to strike him twice and then hope to land the third strike (in my experience a rare occurrence, our foes tend to have massive AC) in order to knock him back.. Because if I did it on the first attack I'd push him out of the reach of my two-handed weapon (I'm thinking of using a great hammer or greatsword)..wasting at least one more chance at doing damage.
Either way.. Let's say I manage to bullrush him back 5 feet...Whether as part of landing a power attack or by shoving him..All he needs to to is to take a 5ft step back and deliver a full attack like I hadn't pushed him away at all.
So... Why bother investing two feats (improved bullrush and knockback) to obtain a possible advantage that is very situational and counts on the opponent not having dimension door, wings, half a dozen legs, size advantage or another half a dozen things that routinely crop up with our opponents?
I must be missing a key aspect of the strategy, or must have left out another effect of the bullrush, or is there yet another feat that would make this actually become so very useful as everybody seems to find it?
Let us assume for a moment that there is no interesting terrain(like the mage's Web spell or some undergrowth). Let's also assume that there is no squishier PCs that the monsters would want to prioritize. In both those cases the benefit of moving the enemy towards obstacles and away from weak points is obvious.

So we are left with a featureless plain where the monsters attack without preference. You are at high enough level that a monster's full attack is much worse for you than their charge. What if you could put them 10-15ft* too far away to full attack at the end of your full attack? Sure they could dimension door/fly/have a +4 to resist/have a +4 to resist if huge(since you are "large") but that would still prevent them from using their devastating full attack without depriving you of yours.

So if you can reach 2 enemies you would go "Hit + Knockback on A, Hit B, Hit B" or "Hit A, Hit and Knockback A, Hit B". Against only one enemy you would probably use knockback on your -10 attack(and on both -10 and -15 when you get to BAB +16).

*Since your check is +Str+4size+4feat+2*PA you can readily beat their defensive roll by the 5-10 needed to push them back 10-15ft.

[dehro]

Gotcha.. For some reason I was under the impression that you could only knockback further than 5ft if you moved with the bullrush, as in leaned into it by moving towards the enemy

[dehro]

Damn.. I thought the runescarred berserker PrC would be accessible sooner than that..
Would trading knockback for the berserker lodge feat and access to the PrC be worth it?
The alternative would be to go human, in order to get the extra feat, but that means completely altering the character, gaining the level lost with LA but missing out on the juicy bonuses from the goliath race...
...Wait, that would also disqualify me from getting knockback at all, due to size requirements.

So, given that the campaign is likely to end somewhere not far above lv 15, the alternatives are:
1) Human 6 barbarian/7 runescarred berserker, with power attack, iron will, survivor, a lodge feat and 2 more feats. (improved bullrush and knockback?)
2) Goliath 12 lv full barbarian with a view to prestige class into runescarred berserker at lv 15, with iron will, survivor, power attack, Improved bullrush, knockback. At lv 15 i could get the lodge feat and my first level of runescarred berserker... Or I could ignore runescarred altogether and swap iron will and/or survivor for knockback and another bullrush enhancing feat
3) Goliath 9 barbarian/3 runescarred berserker, with iron will, survivor, power attack, Improved bullrush, lodge feat, and then wait for lv 15 to get knockback.

Either way, there's the option of getting pounce through spirit lion totem, mountain rage through racial substitution levels (for Goliath)

Thoughts? Suggestions?
(no, bargaining with the DM to reduce the prerequisites for the PrC is not an option)

[Endril_69]

Damn.. I thought the runescarred berserker PrC would be accessible sooner than that..
Would trading knockback for the berserker lodge feat and access to the PrC be worth it?
The alternative would be to go human, in order to get the extra feat, but that means completely altering the character, gaining the level lost with LA but missing out on the juicy bonuses from the goliath race...
...Wait, that would also disqualify me from getting knockback at all, due to size requirements.

So, given that the campaign is likely to end somewhere not far above lv 15, the alternatives are:
1) Human 6 barbarian/7 runescarred berserker, with power attack, iron will, survivor, a lodge feat and 2 more feats. (improved bullrush and knockback?)
2) Goliath 12 lv full barbarian with a view to prestige class into runescarred berserker at lv 15, with iron will, survivor, power attack, Improved bullrush, knockback. At lv 15 i could get the lodge feat and my first level of runescarred berserker... Or I could ignore runescarred altogether and swap iron will and/or survivor for knockback and another bullrush enhancing feat
3) Goliath 9 barbarian/3 runescarred berserker, with iron will, survivor, power attack, Improved bullrush, lodge feat, and then wait for lv 15 to get knockback.

Thoughts? Suggestions?
(no, bargaining with the DM to reduce the prerequisites for the PrC is not an option)

If you're interested in knockback, why not look at the fighter ACF in dungeonscape that lets you do damage when you knock people into things? Shocktrooper is also a helpful feat for knockback, as it lets you direct your bull rush, knock people into each other, and hit while using power attack.

[dehro]

It requires taking two levels of fighter, which I'd rather not do.

[GreyBlack]

Have you considered throwing things? If not, I'd like to invite you to consider the Hulking Hurler. Catching any ranged projectiles of size large or smaller and THROWING BOULDERS at people gets really fun, really fast. Combined with your rage and the ability to power attack with thrown objects is very fun.

It also has the ability Really Throw Anything. Really.

[dehro]

Have you considered throwing things? If not, I'd like to invite you to consider the Hulking Hurler. Catching any ranged projectiles of size large or smaller and THROWING BOULDERS at people gets really fun, really fast. Combined with your rage and the ability to power attack with thrown objects is very fun.

It also has the ability Really Throw Anything. Really.

I have, and I have decided against it.. In the past I have tried putting together something that could throw my allies in my enemies' faces. It grew old rather quickly and never was of much use

[dehro]

Waitaminute.... If I decide to get an alternate class level, do I have to take all 2/3 levels as listed? Can I pick only one substitution level? Does it have to be the first in order of magnitude or can I skip previous sub levels in favour of the regular ones?
Say I want mountain rage, do I have to also take fortification and/or skin of stone?
Say I want only mountain rage and skin of stone, am I stuck also getting fortification?

Also, does extra wisdom grant extra known spells? I'm guessing it doesn't, but can't find it in writing

[Aleolus]

Waitaminute.... If I decide to get an alternate class level, do I have to take all 2/3 levels as listed? Can I pick only one substitution level? Does it have to be the first in order of magnitude or can I skip previous sub levels in favour of the regular ones?
Say I want mountain rage, do I have to also take fortification and/or skin of stone?
Say I want only mountain rage and skin of stone, am I stuck also getting fortification?

Also, does extra wisdom grant extra known spells? I'm guessing it doesn't, but can't find it in writing

To your first question, no. You decide when you take the level in question whether you. want to take the regular abilities or the alternate ones, but you can't change your mind

[OldTrees1]

So, given that the campaign is likely to end somewhere not far above lv 15, the alternatives are:
1) Human 6 barbarian/7 runescarred berserker, with power attack, iron will, survivor, a lodge feat and 2 more feats. (improved bullrush and knockback?)
2) Goliath 12 lv full barbarian with a view to prestige class into runescarred berserker at lv 15, with iron will, survivor, power attack, Improved bullrush, knockback. At lv 15 i could get the lodge feat and my first level of runescarred berserker... Or I could ignore runescarred altogether and swap iron will and/or survivor for knockback and another bullrush enhancing feat
3) Goliath 9 barbarian/3 runescarred berserker, with iron will, survivor, power attack, Improved bullrush, lodge feat, and then wait for lv 15 to get knockback.

4) Ex convict* Goliath Barbarian 12 with entry into Runescarred berserker next level.
5) Ex convict* Goliath Barbarian 7 / Runescarred berserker 5 with Knockback at 12th level.
*There is a prison call Otyugh Hole(found in Complete Scoundrel). Serving a sentence there is scarring enough that you leave with a bonus feat from a short list (examples being Iron Will and Extend Rage). However this bonus counts as 3000gp towards your wealth by level.

6) Flawed* Goliath Barbarian 9 / Runescarred berserker 3
7) Flawed* Goliath Barbarian 7 / Runescarred berserker 5 with knockback at 9th level
*Unearthed Arcana offers the concept of flaws (disadvantages) that reward/balance out 1-2 additional feats. While none of the feats listed is worth trusting(WotC failed again), the concept works wonderfully if you and your DM work together to create 1-2 interesting weakenesses/disadvantages that would be fun to play and be balanced with gaining 1-2 feats.

I don't think you want option 1.
Between options 2 and 3, option 3 gives you time to play with both parts and you sound interested in both parts.
Between options 4 and 5, option 5 sounds better.
Between options 6 and 7, option 7 sounds better.
As a DM, I personally would prefer 7 > 3 > 5, but DMs differ.


Runescarred spells:
No Wis does not add more spells known.
You get 7 rune slots on your body.
Expending a rune frees up that slot for another rune to be scribed. (and costs 5gp - 250gp)
Runes take 1 hour each to scribe.
So you could cast up to 23 spells per 24 hour day, but that is unlikely. More often you would sleep 8 hours, scribe 7 runes, and adventure for 9 hours.

[dehro]

Thanks for the detailed explanation.
That said, the other options are off limits because they rely on a level of optimisation that both me and the DM are uncomfortable with.
Flaws are pretty much the poster boy of optimisation and if I drum up with the otyugh thing the DM will throw is books at me for fishing something obscure for the purpose of optimisation (the actual level of optimisation being irrelevant)
As it is I'm already expecting flak for taking ACF from two different sources, mountain rage and spirit lion totem, and a PrC from yet another book.
It looks like I'll go with option 3

[OldTrees1]

Thanks for the detailed explanation. That said, the other options are off limits because they rely on a level of optimization that both me and the DM are uncomfortable with. It looks like I'll go with option 3

Sounds like a good fit for your group. Have fun!

[GreyBlack]

I have, and I have decided against it.. In the past I have tried putting together something that could throw my allies in my enemies' faces. It grew old rather quickly and never was of much use

Off topic: it's not about throwing your friends. It's about throwing literal mountains and/or planets. But, since you've decided not to go that route, we'll move on.

On topic: A friend of mine one ran an ex-monk/barbarian/frenzied berserker, investing most of his money into grafting additional arms to his body. If you're interested in that route, I could do that up quick for you.

[dehro]

Off topic: it's not about throwing your friends. It's about throwing literal mountains and/or planets. But, since you've decided not to go that route, we'll move on.

On topic: A friend of mine one ran an ex-monk/barbarian/frenzied berserker, investing most of his money into grafting additional arms to his body. If you're interested in that route, I could do that up quick for you.

It sounds hilarious, but no, thank you... My friends already have way too many laughs at the characters I come up with and their demises

[dehro]

Yet another question...
Do I get a size bonus when grappling? Does it mean I can just add a blanket +4 to the grapple stat or are there limited conditions?
What happens when I mountain rage and become large...Can I grapple gargantuan creatures? I understand I don't get a further numerical bonus on the grapple checks, but determining whether I can roll a dice isn't the grapple check itself.

[Aleolus]

Yet another question...
Do I get a size bonus when grappling? Does it mean I can just add a blanket +4 to the grapple stat or are there limited conditions?
What happens when I mountain rage and become large...Can I grapple gargantuan creatures? I understand I don't get a further numerical bonus on the grapple checks, but determining whether I can roll a dice isn't the grapple check itself.

Yes, you get a blanket +4 to your grapple checks for Powerful Build
Mountain Rage doesn't give you most of the benefits being Large normally would, because your Mountain Rage temporarily overrides your Powerful Build
You can attempt to grapple a Gargantuan creature, regardless of your size, however being Gargantuan they always recieve a +12 on their grapple check

[OldTrees1]

Yet another question...
Do I get a size bonus when grappling? Does it mean I can just add a blanket +4 to the grapple stat or are there limited conditions?
What happens when I mountain rage and become large...Can I grapple gargantuan creatures? I understand I don't get a further numerical bonus on the grapple checks, but determining whether I can roll a dice isn't the grapple check itself.

Powerful Build(and the actual Large size of Mountain Rage) qualify as Large size for all beneficial size modifiers.

RAI(AFBs so cannot speak to RAW): Mountain Rage expands and does not extend Powerful Build. So it would not enable grappling 2 sizes above your new size*.


Step 3
Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action.

If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.

If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are.

[dehro]

And again, thank you...
I had a look at rhino hide armor, which looks good for a charging barbarian, but decided against it. If has a rather low AC bonus for a +2 armor, meaning enhancing it further would cost an arm and a leg... All For an average +7 damage points on a charge.. Fluff-wise It would be perfect, but that's just not enough, especially since I'm trading in fast movement for pounce, so I'm probably better off with a light armor of some description.
Is mithral the only light option out there? Flavour-wise it doesn't really fit a craggy Goliath on steroids, to be dressed like a nimble elf.

[Kraken]

Blue ice (Frostburn) can be used in lieu of iron, and like mithril it would decrease medium armor to heavy for you (and heavy to medium if that's of interest). Though you could also just obtain a tooth of Savnok (Tome of Magic), which removes speed penalties from armor. The tooth is nice because it's only 2,000 GP, and you're not as dependent on a specific material for your armor, you can just don better suits as you come by them. Edit: also, it'd be a totally barbarian thing to do, pulling out one of your own teeth and replacing it with a better tooth.

[dehro]

Blue ice doesn't really fit very well with our setting, I believe... And savnok's tooth is something I would like to see happen ingame, rather than finding it on a list..
I think I'll stick to mithral.
I'm just glad the dwarven CE barbarian is not in the game anymore.. The word pansy would be used..

[Darrin]

Is mithral the only light option out there? Flavour-wise it doesn't really fit a craggy Goliath on steroids, to be dressed like a nimble elf.

Darkleaf (A&EG or Eberron Campaign Setting) is cheaper than mithral. Still has the "dressed like a foppish elf" problem, though.

There are several other materials that have the same properties as mithral. Sentira, for example, looks like sculpted coral (Secrets of Sarlona p. 135). But if you want something that looks more bad-ass, then you want Firebrass (Secrets of Xen'drik p. 147).

[GreyBlack]

And again, thank you...
I had a look at rhino hide armor, which looks good for a charging barbarian, but decided against it. If has a rather low AC bonus for a +2 armor, meaning enhancing it further would cost an arm and a leg... All For an average +7 damage points on a charge.. Fluff-wise It would be perfect, but that's just not enough, especially since I'm trading in fast movement for pounce, so I'm probably better off with a light armor of some description.
Is mithral the only light option out there? Flavour-wise it doesn't really fit a craggy Goliath on steroids, to be dressed like a nimble elf.

Is fast movement really worth it? It is only +10 to your movement speed. You get magic items that increase your mobility far more.

However, the other option is to look at the crafting prerequisites and asking the DM if you can get a custom crafted Rhino Hide armor, except in leather instead of hide. That will maintain your movement speed and give you the sweet armor you want.

[dehro]

so...festivities are over and we're resuming play, so I'm finalising the character.
is there a reason why I shouldn't take the Skin of Stone damage reduction substitution level??
yes, it has adamantine as exception, but it does give twice the damage reduction..
Ok, the difference is between 1 and 2 points of damage reduction, what with me taking only 9 levels of barbarian.. but still.. adamantine weapons are rather unheard of in our campaign, so...I can't see the downside to this substitution level.

[OldTrees1]

so...festivities are over and we're resuming play, so I'm finalising the character.
is there a reason why I shouldn't take the Skin of Stone damage reduction substitution level??
yes, it has adamantine as exception, but it does give twice the damage reduction..
Ok, the difference is between 1 and 2 points of damage reduction, what with me taking only 9 levels of barbarian.. but still.. adamantine weapons are rather unheard of in our campaign, so...I can't see the downside to this substitution level.

Depends on if mid level warriors use Transmuting(+2 abilty) weapons. DR/- still effects such weapons but all other DR is bypassed(after the first hit). Outside of this edge case I would go with the higher DR value.

[Âmesang]

So I'm not sure how "(un)optimizing" this suggestion would be, but I can't help but look at a low Charisma barbarian and want to tack on the Intimidating Prowess feat from Pathfinder, which adds your Strength modifier to Intimidate along with Charisma… if you decided to ever put ranks into it, of course.

I guess this is just me reflecting on my last group where the 2'1" gnome bard had a higher Intimidate than the 6'5" half-orc barbarian. :smalltongue:

[dehro]

So I'm not sure how "(un)optimizing" this suggestion would be, but I can't help but look at a low Charisma barbarian and want to tack on the Intimidating Prowess feat from Pathfinder, which adds your Strength modifier to Intimidate along with Charisma… if you decided to ever put ranks into it, of course.

I guess this is just me reflecting on my last group where the 2'1" gnome bard had a higher Intimidate than the 6'5" half-orc barbarian. :smalltongue:

it makes complete sense to me that someone who is pretty much scary to look at and has poor manners/hygiene/charme and so on should be very intimidating and I do think that negative levels of charisma should be flipped over to intimidate.. but no, pathfinder feats would never be accepted.


the Survivor feat grants +2 to wilderness lore.. does that mean I can now roll wilderness lore even though it's not a class skill, or do I still need to put a skill point in there?? (well.. two then)

[Troacctid]

so...festivities are over and we're resuming play, so I'm finalising the character.
is there a reason why I shouldn't take the Skin of Stone damage reduction substitution level??
yes, it has adamantine as exception, but it does give twice the damage reduction..
Ok, the difference is between 1 and 2 points of damage reduction, what with me taking only 9 levels of barbarian.. but still.. adamantine weapons are rather unheard of in our campaign, so...I can't see the downside to this substitution level.

Streetfighter (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) is better. If you haven't chosen a spirit totem, then the Spirit Manifestation for the Fox Totem is also better (replaces the DR with a dodge bonus to AC).

Wilderness Lore was changed to Survival in the 3.5 update, so it would be a bonus to Survival.

[dehro]

derp... I should have caught that..

but no, I'm not going with urban class features.. for a bunch of reasons.