Spells that scale exceedingly well

[Corran]

Lets create a list of spells that are worth casting at a higher level spell slot. Doesn't matter if the spell deals damage, utility, control, or buffs/debuffs, as long as there is a significant benefit from upcasting it. I'll start.

Armor of agathys is an easy one. The benefits increase dramatically. This spell begs to be cast using a higher level slot.

[McNinja]

Scorching Ray is one of the better-scaling spells in the game right now, as is Erupting Earth (compared to fireball, that is).

Unfortunately, there is nothing officially produced that even somewhat competes with Meteor Swarm.

[gfishfunk]

Basically just that one, Hellish Rebuke, and Witchbolt. EDIT: I keep forgetting Temple of Elementall Evil and Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. I really don't know those two....

All three are on the warlock spell list, (though wizards /sorcerers get Witchbolt), so it naturally balances against being unable to cast beyond level 5 and having the warlock's level not include in multiclassing spell casting.

Witchbolt is also balanced by needing to be within 30' of the target, which is closer than most want to get. Still, 1d12 per level per round is great for one spell slot, especially if you twin it as a sorcerer.

[SharkForce]

mass suggestion, bestow curse (situational), and planar binding.

all 3 gain significantly in duration by increasing the level of the spell slot used.

potentially, conjure fey and conjure elemental can also be good. hard to argue they're worth a level 9 slot, but getting a higher CR creature can be quite valuable, especially if it opens a specific ability that you need.

glyph of warding can likewise be quite valuable. major image can become permanent through the use of a higher level spell slot.

counterspell can be fairly valuable to scale up, but of course the real winner there is globe of invulnerability.


dominate person, beast, monster, *if* the target is useful for the longer duration and has a sufficiently bad saving throw (which is to say, it probably won't be useful unless you have a DC of at least 20, probably higher - which requires some very specific magic items).

[Tanarii]

Hex. Duration increase allows the warlock to concentrate through multiple combats and short rests.

Hunter Mark for similar reasons. Except rangers don't recharge spells on a short rest.



Witchbolt is also balanced by needing to be within 30' of the target, which is closer than most want to get. Still, 1d12 per level per round is great for one spell slot, especially if you twin it as a sorcerer.
Only Witchbolts initial damage scales.

[gfishfunk]

Only Witchbolts initial damage scales.

Hummmmmm.... I'm not sure if it actually scales well now. Mhmmmm.

[McNinja]

Hummmmmm.... I'm not sure if it actually scales well now. Mhmmmm.It's actually not that bad. Not quite like a 9th level disintegrate, but a 9d12 (max 108) lightning damage at 9th level is pretty good, especially if you somehow manage to get access to it as a tempest cleric.

[ad_hoc]

Spells that start with 1 target and add 1 target per level and are concentration have the best scaling rate.

Damaging spells that have most of their power in an additional effect scale the worst because they aren't about their damage.

[Blood of Gaea]

Planar Binding and Mass Suggestion have hands down the best scaling, each extra level gives you huge exponential gains.

That's what you look for, while most damage spells (i.e. fireball) have linear gains such as an extra die a level, you only really want to cast with higher spell slots for exponential gains. Otherwise you should probably just cast a higher level spell... Why cast lvl 9 Fireball, when you can cast Meteor Swarm?

Any spell with an increasing radius is also good. If you know the basis principles of math here you'll realize the gains are quite large.

[Dalebert]

major image can become permanent through the use of a higher level spell slot.

I got excited when I first read about that. I feel like I need to come up with some use for a new permanent illusion every day now.

[HarrisonF]

Conjure Animals scales really well. At 3rd you get 8 beasts, 5th you get 16, 7th you get 24, 9th you get 32. Giant Owls can do 2d6+1, so that is something like 64d6+32 at 9th level. Or if you want Giant Poisonous Snakes, then it is d4+4 and 3d6 save for half, which gives you a potential 32d4+128+96d6. These can happen every round.

[MaxWilson]

In addition to those already mentioned, Geas scales exponentially, just like Mass Suggestion and Planar Binding.

I find that Vampiric Touch is very much worth casting as a 5th level spell, especially for a Necromancer (because Grim Harvest).

Conjure Animals V is also really nice.

Hold Person V deserves an honorable mention, although it's more of a BBEG spell than a PC spell. E.g. all of my dragons have dragon sorcerer levels, and an adult blue dragon that casts Quicken Hold Person V right before a claw/claw/bite/tail/tail/tail routine can really ruin someone's day.

Blindness V hits four targets and does not need concentration. Unfortunately it's a Con save (which is generally a pretty strong save for most nontrivial monsters), but it's still a pretty nice spell.

Confusion scales reasonably well with AoE. So does Fog Cloud.

[Vogonjeltz]

sleep scales at 2d8 per level, color spray 2d10, no other "damage" spell scales so well.

[McNinja]

sleep scales at 2d8 per level, color spray 2d10, no other "damage" spell scales so well.They do "scale" pretty well, but HP per CR scales faster, and generally if you're fighting something you would want to sleep after level 5 or so, sleep won't be enough and it's not good enough to use in an 8th or 9th level slot.

[MaxWilson]

They do "scale" pretty well, but HP per CR scales faster, and generally if you're fighting something you would want to sleep after level 5 or so, sleep won't be enough and it's not good enough to use in an 8th or 9th level slot.

Plus, Sleep can backfire and/or do nothing... and even if it works, it wears off after only one attack on the enemy. It's not awful but it's not nearly as good as an actual damage spell for the same value.

[McNinja]

Plus, Sleep can backfire and/or do nothing... and even if it works, it wears off after only one attack on the enemy. It's not awful but it's not nearly as good as an actual damage spell for the same value.Or even a hold person/monster spell, and at 9th level you can just end the encounter with an Imprisonment.

[The1exile]

Bigby's Hand starts high, but it scales beautifully to the highest levels so you can be attacking for 12d8 force damage per turn as a bonus action if you take it to level 9.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Unfortunately, there is nothing officially produced that even somewhat competes with Meteor Swarm.

Given the power of other ninth level spells, like Wish, I'm okay with this.

[Tanarii]

Hold Person V deserves an honorable mention, although it's more of a BBEG spell than a PC spell. E.g. all of my dragons have dragon sorcerer levels, and an adult blue dragon that casts Quicken Hold Person V right before a claw/claw/bite/tail/tail/tail routine can really ruin someone's day.Fun spells to hit the party with could be a thread all on its own. :)

[DireSickFish]

Banishment scales well with adding 1 target/level and really pulls its weight against outsiders at it acts as a save or die.

Disinigrate adds a boatload of damage each ramp up so it scales good for 7th and 8th level slots. Meteor swarm might do more damage as a 9th but you don't have to worrya bout friendly fire.

Animate objects starts good enough that the scaling is workable, especially if you can get 3 or 4 rounds out of the casting. We have our DM borderline considering this spell broken.

[MaxWilson]

Animate objects starts good enough that the scaling is workable, especially if you can get 3 or 4 rounds out of the casting. We have our DM borderline considering this spell broken.

If you really want to persuade him it's broken, combine it with Darkness or Fog Cloud.

[DireSickFish]

If you really want to persuade him it's broken, combine it with Darkness or Fog Cloud.

That requires a second concentration, and if I had a second concentration I'd just cast Animated Objects again.

[Blood of Gaea]

Meteor swarm might do more damage as a 9th but you don't have to worrya bout friendly fire.

One of the reasons to be an Evocation Wizard.

[Tanarii]

That requires a second concentration, and if I had a second concentration I'd just cast Animated Objects again.That's a pretty strong assumption of having another 5th level spell slot and being willing to use it in the same fight. OTOH if your point is that concentration is better spent on spells of higher level than 1 or 2 when you have access to 5th level spells, I'm with ya. Even if it's another party member's concentration.

[MaxWilson]

That requires a second concentration, and if I had a second concentration I'd just cast Animated Objects again.

But the second concentration is easier to get. E.g. can come off a drow fighter, or a shadow monk.

In some ways, 8 Animated Objects in the dark are even stronger than 16 Animated Objects in the light. For example, the 8 in the dark will take longer to kill for a bunch of orcs, or anyone with less than +8 to hit.

[Rusvul]

Umm... No. Drow Magic, the Tiefling's Infernal Legacy, and the Monk's Shadow Arts all still require Concentration (at least if you cast a Concentration spell with them), as they do not specify otherwise. There is no way to Concentrate on two spells at once- The discussion on that is entirely hypothetical. The closest thing to it is the Sorcerer's Twin Spell metamagic.

[SharkForce]

Umm... No. Drow Magic, the Tiefling's Infernal Legacy, and the Monk's Shadow Arts all still require Concentration (at least if you cast a Concentration spell with them), as they do not specify otherwise. There is no way to Concentrate on two spells at once- The discussion on that is entirely hypothetical. The closest thing to it is the Sorcerer's Twin Spell metamagic.

yes, but those examples all don't come from people who can cast animate objects, and who therefore don't have the option of animating more.

[McNinja]

Umm... No. Drow Magic, the Tiefling's Infernal Legacy, and the Monk's Shadow Arts all still require Concentration (at least if you cast a Concentration spell with them), as they do not specify otherwise. There is no way to Concentrate on two spells at once- The discussion on that is entirely hypothetical. The closest thing to it is the Sorcerer's Twin Spell metamagic.Way to miss the point. One character concentrates on animate object, the other character concentrates on Darkness or Fog Cloud.

[Rusvul]

...Ah. My mistake, the phrasing confused me. You are correct, that would be quite effective.

[MaxWilson]

...Ah. My mistake, the phrasing confused me. You are correct, that would be quite effective.

Finding ways to fully utilize your whole party's concentration economy is pretty important in 5E, at least in important fights. If only 2 of your 4 PCs are concentrating on something, you're probably not running at peak effectiveness. Yet another reason why Eldritch Knights are the best kind of fighter, and why Shadow Monks are better than Open Hand monks.

[Forum Explorer]

Bestow curse gets great when it stops needing concentration. Dump a powerful debuff on an opponent without it being trivial to lose.

[TheFlyingCleric]

Melf's Minute Meteors scales really well, better than fireball or scorching ray, although it requires some more bonus actions as it scales up.

[Slipperychicken]

Conjure Animals scales really well. At 3rd you get 8 beasts, 5th you get 16, 7th you get 24, 9th you get 32. Giant Owls can do 2d6+1, so that is something like 64d6+32 at 9th level. Or if you want Giant Poisonous Snakes, then it is d4+4 and 3d6 save for half, which gives you a potential 32d4+128+96d6. These can happen every round.

It's good scaling if you want to manage 16 monsters in combat. It's not so good if you easily get sick of that.

[Giant2005]

Melf's Minute Meteors scales really well, better than fireball or scorching ray, although it requires some more bonus actions as it scales up.

Not really - regardless of the slot used, it will only ever inflict a max of 4d6 damage per round. The only thing that spell slots do is extend the number of rounds. You are better off casting something like Flaming Sphere or Bigby's Hand with that higher spell slot, as they will both out-damage and out-last Melf's.

[SharkForce]

well this 6-month old thread definitely needed to start up again...
[/sarcasm]

[Democratus]

Magic Missile is an old stand-by that scales well. Unerring force damage is sometimes worth its weight in electrum.
Chromatic Orb is also a "dial-a-type" energy that can give you exactly what you need in a pinch.
Hold Person eventually becomes "Hold Crowd" as levels go up. It's great for control.
Likewise, Invisibility is great at higher levels for making the whole party disappear.
Counterspell and Dispel Magic both need higher level slots to stay effective against stronger magics.

[Corran]

well this 6-month old thread definitely needed to start up again...
[/sarcasm]
It's actually my fault, I linked it in a new thread that discussed high level spells and the such. Just let this thread rest, people...!:smallbiggrin: