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Erit
2015-12-14, 10:36 PM
Preface: The table I play at regards me as the person with the greatest system mastery present, including the DM as he regularly asks me for advice pertaining to how rules work and what numbers mean what. Being a nerd, I've read pretty much every book I can get my hands on cover-to-cover and, if not committed it to memory, at least indexed where a lot of rules can be found or extrapolated from. So I can manipulate the system better than pretty much everyone else to overcome raw numerical disadvantage, but would like to avoid anything too insane as to avoid breaking the good faith of my friends. Lower-Middle PO range on all suggestions, please.

Campaign Context: Tiamat has lead the Chromatic Dragons in a great uprising attempting to overthrow the campaign pantheon which consists of partially de-powered versions of the normal D&D deities. The party is a motley crew of reasonably seasoned adventurers barring the character around whom this thread is founded, consisting of a Draconic Kord-Blooded Human TWFer using a matched pair of bastard swords building into the Risada Anointed Knight using the Pathfinder Fighter, a Dromite Vitalist who identifies as female and focuses on Vitalist's insanely powerful support capability, and a half-dragon Drunken Fist (basically Drunken Master turned into a Non-Lawful exclusive full-20 class) who in the first session hurled an empty wine bottle at a nobleman and KO'd him in one shot. Plus this one, a character the DM added courtesy of my TWFer's backstory who's being used to cover our woeful lack of magic. Pathfinder and homebrew material is, obviously, allowed via DM fiat since he's the kind of DM who works with the players to let them get more or less what they're after, within reason. We begin at 8th level and are allowed to take and ignore up to two points of LA.

The Character Concept: She's meant to be a beautiful and confident sorceress capable of holding her own in nearly any situation. She's descended from nobility dedicated to Kord and, in the forty years the aforementioned Dragon-God conflict has been going on, also dedicated to training adept dragon-slayers. So I want anything that allows her to at least survive long enough to escape melee with CR appropriate foes with as little magic as possible, and perhaps thwack lesser foes over the head so as to conserve magical resources when possible (campaign involves fairly lengthy adventuring days as far as I know, so that kind of thing is a little important.), plus blow the scaly beasts the high heaven when needed through things like Shivering Touch. I'm eyeing Abjurant Champion and/or Raumathari as a useful way to get basically everything I want out of that but feel dirty using them due to some poor experiences with a contemptuous manchild of a powergamer that the entire group knows and hates. That can be circumvented if no other convenient paths apply, though.

What I have so far: So far, miss Elyse Arthon is a Celestial Human with seven levels in Pathfinder Sorcerer using both Battle Sorcerer and Stalwart Sorcerer, plus a level in Dragonslayer for BAB, saves, spellcasting boosts, and fluff. Her ability scores read 15/14/13/11/11/18 and cannot be changed at this point, with a vest of charisma +2 courtesy of the MIC and the permissive DM (the vest is purely for aesthetic, it can be changed to a different slot if needed). She wields a longsword and wears a chain shirt, both masterwork, and has the following feats: Still Spell, Silent Spell, Dodge, Iron Will (from Celestial Bloodline PF Sorc) plus one floater that I currently have set as Combat Casting but am still thinking on. I probably made a mistake on the ability score allocation, namely by putting Con to only 13, but there's little I can do about that now.

I am cripplingly inept at casters as far as I know, however (the one time I made a Wizard he wound up as a Goliath Strength caster able to implode fully armored enemies by punching them. "I cast fist" was a genuine thing), and appeal to the expertise of the Playground for assistance. I'm asking for feat advice, since I can change them out more or less with impunity until Saturday when our next session starts, advice on spells (I'm looking at Shadow Evocation and its ilk to overcome her tiny spell pool if I can, since I have ways to boost her DCs to be effective), and potential revisions for class distribution and suggestions for where to put the future levels (I'd like at least Sorc 9 because then she gets wings for free, which goes wonderfully with some of the stuff I have in mind for her). The Vitalist being around means that I not only don't need to but actively don't want to take spells related to buffing the party directly since it would diminish the Vitalist's niche, and I've already made her feel bad by blowing up the first encounter in a single round with a well-placed Wings of Flurry. So that leaves things like battlefield control, debuffing, minionmancy and the outright slaughtering of the weak and impudent (what others call "blasting" I prefer to replace with "obliterating". After all, why win when you can dominate?).

I eagerly await your assistance,

~Erit of Eastcris

Fii
2015-12-14, 11:07 PM
I always liked crowd-control. I always liked tricks involving mage hand and mundane hazards, such as caltrops. If you "stick" (3.5 spell) caltrops to a small floor rug/doormat/etc, you can magehand it into place provided the weight does not exceed 5lbs. In Pathfinder, that makes it at will. With a handy haversack, you'll find such traps to always be on top.. and it will take very little magical resources to use. For that reason, I'd recommend trapsmithing and making magical traps with your DM's approval. I'd recommend your familiar be capable of assisting. If you look for solutions combining material preparedness with magic, it would let your friends help set it up and therefor keep them from being upset with you for one-shot-ing the badguy.

Erit
2015-12-14, 11:31 PM
I am permitted use of the PF sorcerer for purpose of class features, but not for infinite cantrips/day because of chicanery involving Cure Minor Wounds spam. In addition, Pathfinder Sorcerers do not get Familiars, which is a shame since having a Weasel would be useful, as would Metamagic Specialist. I like the trapmaking, though, and have been wondering what to do with my Craft and spare skill points, so perhaps I should look into cheap ways of making that effective.

Endarire
2015-12-15, 02:00 AM
A Pathfinder Sorcerer (arcane bloodline) can choose a familiar, but if you aren't doing that...

I still advise crowd control and buffing. Arcanes do that well in 3.P.

Erit
2015-12-15, 02:31 AM
Outside of Evards and Solid Fog (since those two are ones I had in mind to take anyway), what're some decent crowd-controlling or crowd-neutralizing spells? And would metamagic be remotely useful on them outside of Sculpt Spell? Can't really use Widen, since friendly fire isn't and there are two melees dedicated to liquefying everything they get near who can't do their jobs as effectively when grappled or slowed to a crawl.

Xervous
2015-12-15, 04:07 PM
Outside of Evards and Solid Fog (since those two are ones I had in mind to take anyway), what're some decent crowd-controlling or crowd-neutralizing spells? And would metamagic be remotely useful on them outside of Sculpt Spell? Can't really use Widen, since friendly fire isn't and there are two melees dedicated to liquefying everything they get near who can't do their jobs as effectively when grappled or slowed to a crawl.

Which versions of spells like Glitterdust are being used? (3.5 or PF?) More than a few goodies are worth opting for if you have access to the 3.5 versions.

Battle sorcerer + stalwart sorcerer is going to leave you with jack all for spell versatility out of the gate. You're losing 1 spell known at every level PLUS 1 from your highest slot.

You don't learn a second 1st level spell until level 4.
You don't learn a second 2nd level spell until level 7.
... a second 3rd level spell until 9.
... a second 4th until 11.
Not to mention the loss of 1 spell slot per level.

And what are you getting out of it?
an average of 4 more HP per level on sorc levels only
3/4 BAB... again only for your sorc levels
proficiency with a weapon... woo

/endrant

Stalwart sorc isn't super amazing but if you find yourself without any other options it's a nice way to pick up a martial weapon proficiency. Since most of your damage comes from character build and other enhancements the weapon you're using isn't so important if big numbers are your main desire. Proficiency with said martial weapon is just the entry fee for a lot of good gish prestiges.

Seeing how you desire 9 levels of PF sorc, you could just go right up to Sorc 10, nab a level of Dragonslayer and go right into the staple gish class: Abjurant Champion. From there you'd have 4 levels remaining that could be thrown at things like a 1 level dip in Spellsword for +1BAB/+1 casting, or you could cherry pick from among the many useful casting prestiges since you aren't hitting 16 BAB with this method anyways, which brings me to...

How much BAB do you want and when do you want it by? As outlined before stalwart + battle sorc severely neuters your casting to the point that you'd be better off taking two levels of say... Paladin (Sorcadin build) to get the proficiency and BAB to boost you into your prestiges... all depends on how married you are to 9 levels of sorc.

IIRC sorcadins usually cruise along as follows:
Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5 + (usually sacred exorcist)
Pretty easy to stick a level of dragonslayer in there for... Pally 2 / sorc 4 / spellsword 1 / dragonslayer 1 / abj champ 1 (+4 abj champ + 7 levels of other stuff)
At level 9 you'll have 7 BAB just like the battle+stalwart you're currently running, spell access will be one level lower but bear with me for a moment. The sorcadin knows 7 / 5 / 3 / 2 / -- spells (starting with 0ths). Your battle stalwart knows 8 / 4 / 3 / 2 / 1. So again we find ourselves at the question of Combat vs. casting. If you're willing to give up spell access you might as well get some nice goodies out of it (CHA to all saves and the use of paladin wands is definitely noteworthy).


Alternatively, stalwart sorc can enter swiftblade (losing a caster level) after 6 levels (6 sorc / 1 swift)... if you don't mind throwing away another feats on mobility (already getting dodge for dragonslayer). From there you can ride swiftblade to its first exit point at 3 leaving you with 5 BAB for dragonslayer entry.
6 Sorc / 3 Swiftblade / 1 Dragonslayer / 5 Abjurant Champion / +5 levels

If you're intent on keeping your progression as it is, go into abjurant champion then seek out full casting prestiges afterwards.

Erit
2015-12-15, 09:42 PM
All spells are 3.5 edition, as are feats and items. I've only been allowed to pull from Pathfinder for the purpose of class features since Sorcerer lacks any sans the familiar in 3.5 and the DM finds that abhorrently boring.

I can't go with a sorcadin kind of build, sadly, since this character is NG and wouldn't be able to stay a Paladin for very long. Regarding the drawbacks of Stalwart and Battle, the way the DM is treating HD actually makes the D8s average out to around 6.5. I'm also pretty set on the nine levels unless I'm willing to try talking my DM into letting "+casting" also affect class abilities, which I'd rather not.

Combat vs casting... Perhaps I'm misusing the term "gish" here, but I'm looking to build her as "Spell Or Sword" rather than "Spell And Sword". If the enemy is a threat, smash it with magic. If the enemy isn't, stab it with the sword to conserve resources. Alternate as needed. So I would enjoy the impossible task of sacrificing as little BAB as possible and as little casting as possible beyond what I've already given up with Battle and Stalwart stacking. Though... on reflection, I can stand to drop Stalwart, so I believe I will.

The constraints I've placed on the build are silly, yes, but that's the nature of the beast

nedz
2015-12-15, 10:08 PM
Whilst Paladin is optimal due to Cha synergy you can replace it with any other Full BAB class.


Duskblade - a handfull of spells and Combat Casting for free
Fighter - dull but 2 feats is 2 feats
ACF Hit-and-Run Tactics (DotU 58): +2 initiative, Dex to damage against flat-footed enemies
ACF Stealthy (UA 58): Lose bonus feats; gain sneak attack.
Ranger - lots of skill points, ranger wands, and plenty of ACFs available, FE is useful for certain spells
Hexblade - cha synergy but the alignment mismatches
Swashbuckler - Weapon Finesse and +1 to Reflex saves


Duskblade is probably the best option since you were thinking of grabbing Combat Casting anyway and more spells is good, even if they are only low level
So Duskblade 2 / Sorcerer 4 / Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5 (advancing Sorcerer obviously)

Xervous
2015-12-15, 10:45 PM
Whilst Paladin is optimal due to Cha synergy you can replace it with any other Full BAB class.


Duskblade - a handfull of spells and Combat Casting for free
Fighter - dull but 2 feats is 2 feats
ACF Hit-and-Run Tactics (DotU 58): +2 initiative, Dex to damage against flat-footed enemies
ACF Stealthy (UA 58): Lose bonus feats; gain sneak attack.
Ranger - lots of skill points, ranger wands, and plenty of ACFs available, FE is useful for certain spells
Hexblade - cha synergy but the alignment mismatches
Swashbuckler - Weapon Finesse and +1 to Reflex saves


Duskblade is probably the best option since you were thinking of grabbing Combat Casting anyway and more spells is good, even if they are only low level
So Duskblade 2 / Sorcerer 4 / Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5 (advancing Sorcerer obviously)


He's locked into 9 levels of sorc which has me thinking... might as well go for 10 levels and ditch battle sorc. The health bonus isn't the biggest loss in the world and you could easily use the extra spells to compensate for that relative squishiness. More Save or Lose spells to end encounters, or a nice % based miss chance to neuter D20 attacks against you.

EDIT: Also... if it's PF sorc, would you get the D6 HD for no ACFs?