When to use disguise?

[Melcar]

Hi guys…

I am trying to create a level 20 secret agent/ informant type of character. Someone who has great social skills who can interact with both criminals and nobles, who excel in Human intelligence and information gathering – without anyone knowing they gave this information. I. e. physical collection: Intelligence derived by information collected and provided by human sources.

Anyways my thoughts were to do 5 rogue, 7 spymasters and possibly aristocrat for the rest of it, and then choose social feats and skills. The character is lawful good

Now my question concerns the use of disguise. Let’s assume that he is posing as an investment banker and he enters negotiations with an arms dealer in Calimport – because this arms dealer is supporting a dark network of assassins known as “Cyric State”. Now would he need disguise and for what? He’s not wearing a fake nose or dying he’s hair. He’s simply playing or acting his undercover identity (He is an agent from the Waterdeep Central Intelligence Agency). My understanding is that disguise is basically putting on a fake nose and glasses maybe a wig, but that’s seems lame to say the least. So would he need to use the skill disguise to pose/play this investment banker?

I’m a bit unsure when this skill is actually used. Could anyone perhaps explain when disguise is necessary?

Thanks in advance.

[Venger]

Hi guys…

I am trying to create a level 20 secret agent/ informant type of character. Someone who has great social skills who can interact with both criminals and nobles, who excel in Human intelligence and information gathering – without anyone knowing they gave this information. I. e. physical collection: Intelligence derived by information collected and provided by human sources.

Anyways my thoughts were to do 5 rogue, 7 spymasters and possibly aristocrat for the rest of it, and then choose social feats and skills. The character is lawful good

Now my question concerns the use of disguise. Let’s assume that he is posing as an investment banker and he enters negotiations with an arms dealer in Calimport – because this arms dealer is supporting a dark network of assassins known as “Cyric State”. Now would he need disguise and for what? He’s not wearing a fake nose or dying he’s hair. He’s simply playing or acting his undercover identity (He is an agent from the Waterdeep Central Intelligence Agency). My understanding is that disguise is basically putting on a fake nose and glasses maybe a wig, but that’s seems lame to say the least. So would he need to use the skill disguise to pose/play this investment banker?

I’m a bit unsure when this skill is actually used. Could anyone perhaps explain when disguise is necessary?

Thanks in advance.

I love the spy master class. here's the classic spy master build (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471333-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-Uncanny-Trapsmith-(Tempest_Stormwind))
You certainly don't have to follow It exactly but it's a fun source for ideas

Aristocrat is an npc class and doesn't have any class features. I'm not sure why you want to take it. What Is it that appeals to you?

Disguise can be fluffed however you want. If you like the idea of it being More acting than changing appearance like say Sean beans character on"legends" then that's certainly allowed

Disguise is necessary when you are trying to impersonate a specific person or just hiding who you are through a generic disguise.

Unless you act suspicious or they have some other reason to not trust you npcs do not automatically get a spot l like they do when you impersonate someone specific so for a day to day adventuring form always go generic when not impersonating a specific target.

here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disguise.htm) are the full rules. Please let me know if you have any questions.

[nedz]

I quite like
Changeling Rogue 1 / Beguiler 4 / Unseen seer 2 / Spymaster 7 / Unseen seer +6
Adding in 1 level of Marshal (for Motivate Cha and SF(Diplomacy)) or even Warlock (for +6 to Bluff etc.) are also options but Beguiler 6 gets you Glibness. Also you will have +6d6 sneak with the above. This build is also Int based, though Cha helps obviously.

[Melcar]

Aristocrat is an npc class and doesn't have any class features. I'm not sure why you want to take it. What Is it that appeals to you?

I was simply looking for a non-combat class with nice skills. As well as a class, which seemed to fit as a social class. I also wanted no spellcasting. But I do see the “no class ability point” I might then go for 8 levels of exemplar instead, unless there is some better class to fit my build.

[Segev]

Rogue will likely serve you better than Aristocrat, and I'm sure there are better classes still for what you're doing.

You only need to use Disguise if you're worried that you'll be recognized as somebody OTHER than who you claim to be. If you're pretending to be a wholly made-up person or otherwise interacting with somebody who has no way of knowing what the person you claim to be would "really" act like, you don't need Disguise. You will likely need Bluff to fool them into believing any lies you tell about your identity, though.

Disguise is used to make it so that people who have reason to recognize the person you're pretending to be are fooled by your appearance, mannerisms, etc., into believing you are that person...or to fool people who have reason to recognize who you really are into not recognizing you. It can HELP if you are pretending to be a banker; it can make people looking at you believe "that man is a banker; just look how he's dressed and carries himself!" But it's not required to avoid "that man cannot be a banker, just look at him." At least, as long as you don't go around in obviously wrong garb. Claiming to be a wizard while dressed in full plate won't be terribly convincing, so a "disguise" check to dress stereotypically would help. But again, not be required.

In short, use it if you want to. It can't hurt. It will, at the least, avoid any overt "you don't LOOK like a banker..." questions or objections. But your Bluff, if good enough, could overcome those as long as the mark doesn't know you, yourself, well enough to recognize you and know you're NOT a banker.

[nedz]

I was simply looking for a non-combat class with nice skills. As well as a class, which seemed to fit as a social class. I also wanted no spellcasting. But I do see the “no class ability point” I might then go for 8 levels of exemplar instead, unless there is some better class to fit my build.

You didn't specify no spellcasting in the OP, and combat is quite common in D&D.

So how did he get to level 20 without engaging in combat ?

Incidentally: Rogue is combat no spells and with Beguiler it's the other way around.

The Changeling Minor Change Shape is a supernatural ability which works a bit like Disguise self, but is actually a physical transformation rather than an illusion - so no falsies required. The Disguise skill would just allow him to improve this. The Changeling Rogue ACF not only gives you a few extra skill points but allows you to take 10 on most social skills.

Or is this too "magical" ?

[Flickerdart]

Factotum is an excellent fit for an aristocrat who is very social but not into combat. They get spells, but the number is very small (topping out at 8 per day, total). Consider Human Paragon as well - the bonus feat, ability score bonus, and very flexible skill selection is pretty great for your needs.

[Melcar]

You didn't specify no spellcasting in the OP, and combat is quite common in D&D.

Indeed I did not, which was a mistake. Sorry for that.



So how did he get to level 20 without engaging in combat ?

Well… After University, he enlisted in the army. It didn’t take long for the Army Intelligence to spot him, so he was recruited to undergo strategic intelligence training. Passing at the top of his class he was given a small command as a project manager for Paramilitary activity in the Sword Coast North.
Again showing promise, but missing field work, he applied for HUMINT training and became a field officer. The rest is classified! :smallbiggrin:




Incidentally: Rogue is combat no spells and with Beguiler it's the other way around.

The Changeling Minor Change Shape is a supernatural ability which works a bit like Disguise self, but is actually a physical transformation rather than an illusion - so no falsies required. The Disguise skill would just allow him to improve this. The Changeling Rogue ACF not only gives you a few extra skill points but allows you to take 10 on most social skills.

Or is this too "magical" ?

It is. He's no magic all skills. SU class abilities are ok, but no spells or spell-like abilities.

The reason is simply that after playing this game since the days of 2ed, sometime it’s fun to do something completely different.

[nedz]

A level of Marshall might help ?

Or how about Savant (Dragon Compendium p45) ?
All skills are class skills - which may be helpful.
It also gets

Academic lore (level 1) Bardic Lore basically
Skill assistance (level 1) Share skill use with others
Trapfinding (level 1)
Talent lore (level 2) Free feat
Sneak attack +1d6 (level 3)


Just don't take 5 levels otherwise you'll have some spells, not very many mind.

[Melcar]

I have been looking at the Zentarim Spy, but that one is evil, but what would happen if a Zentarim Spy changed sides? What would happen to his/her abilities.. There is no mention of it, as with the MOnk.

[Florian]

@Melcar:

Disguise is a two-fold skill.
You can disguise yourself _as_ something else, like social class, gender, race or even a specific group of persons or specific person. An important aspect here is acting the part. So the wig and false nose is a thing here, as well as the sheer acting ability to pull it off believably.
The other part is hiding the truth from an observer, like hiding a waterdhavian accent and such things.
You´ll need a copious amount of knowledge (local), sense motive and especially bluff (for innuendo) to make it work beyond that.

[Curmudgeon]

Have you seen RL investment bankers? They've got a dress code that registers only as "nice suit" to most people. However, other people who spend hundreds of hours on the details of the suits they buy also recognize the details in other investment bankers' suits. That's what Disguise will do for an infiltrator: let them adopt the appearance necessary to blend in.

[Melcar]

Have you seen RL investment bankers? They've got a dress code that registers only as "nice suit" to most people. However, other people who spend hundreds of hours on the details of the suits they buy also recognize the details in other investment bankers' suits. That's what Disguise will do for an infiltrator: let them adopt the appearance necessary to blend in.

Good point.

THough I would think that my tailor was doing the details of the "suits" (Noble Outfit) this guy would be wearing and not a disguise check. I do get however that disguise is how you talk where bluff is what you say... Which makes sense.

[TheifofZ]

Good point.

THough I would think that my tailor was doing the details of the "suits" (Noble Outfit) this guy would be wearing and not a disguise check. I do get however that disguise is how you talk where bluff is what you say... Which makes sense.

Yes, your tailor will do the 'details of the suit', but you will need the knowledge in character to talk about it if it's brought up, or be able to talk about your fellow banker's suits.
That's disguise, technically.
Just because with a high enough roll, Disguise can make a human look like an elf, a different gender, or an ogre, doesn't mean it can't also be used to help disguise any flaws or minor quirks in an assumed identity.

Oh, and yes. Disguise can let you look like someone entirely different. So you can be, oh, 'Frank' one day. Frank's got a thick beard, but he's balding. And he's got a slight tan.
And Frank's the lowest scum in the city, with connections all over the black market. He'd be killed dead on sight by the city guard, or be found days later generally around the outside of the city if any of the numerous felons in the area saw him talking to the guard. And Frank talks like an old salt; never a day of learning in his life, has Frank.
And tomorrow you can be 'Bill'. Bill's a tall black banker with a well trimmed head of hair, a small mustache, and wouldnt be caught dead in any area of the city except the upper crust.
He's rich, he's popular, and he has absolutely no connection to the criminal sections of the city. And he sounds just as uptight and pompous as you'd think, without a hint of even a single contraction in his clipped accent.

Completely different people with very different everythings, from clothes, to skin color, to accents and assumed quirks. But they can both be you through Disguise.
And that's important to remember, if you're doing subterfuge. Because if you look roughly the same to both sides, someone will eventually catch on.
It's also easier to run double/triple crosses or information gathering or whatever if you're in several key positions anywhere, rather than just one.

[Telonius]

The use of a disguise is important if you're trying to do one of several things:

- Pretend you're someone specific
- Pretend you're someone other than yourself
- Make sure that you aren't identified

If you just need to be "a banker," then yes, all you'd need would be a particular sort of suit. (Or maybe not, if you're trying to convince somebody you're a banker who's just been robbed). But if it's important that nobody identify you, then you're going to need more than that; you're going to need to have a more extensive disguise. Even more so if you're trying to pretend to be Sam Jones, the Half-Elf banker who's worked at the First Branch Trust of Waterdeep for the past ten years. You're going to need a pretty good disguise to get past the guards and into the vault.

[TheFamilarRaven]

I think the correct answer is: all the time.

As a PC you make a LOT of enemies. And enemies tend to want to kill you. So it stands to reason that you should never reveal your true identity, and should change appearance every so often.

This elementary stuff, people!

[Flickerdart]

To be fair, you also make a lot of friends as a PC, and the king's guards are a lot less likely to throw you in the dungeons when they know you are the hero that saved them from that dragon last year.

[TheFamilarRaven]

Ah well yes, of course you make friends, if you're the rare, non murderhobo-ing type.

Just keep a little black book of notes that tells you what disguise your wore when such-and -such important person rewarded you/acknowledge you when you need to make an appearance to that person.

Also, if you're needing to avoid prison ... it doesn't sound like you're making friends at all.

[Melcar]

I think the correct answer is: all the time.

As a PC you make a LOT of enemies. And enemies tend to want to kill you. So it stands to reason that you should never reveal your true identity, and should change appearance every so often.

This elementary stuff, people!

First of all, I get your point, but this non-combat, non-spellcasting agent is sopposed to make as many friends as possible. Indeed I get that this is probably wise to do in different personas and thus with the application of disguise, but my goal is, that he will never have to fight or kill anyone...

[TheifofZ]

First of all, I get your point, but this non-combat, non-spellcasting agent is sopposed to make as many friends as possible. Indeed I get that this is probably wise to do in different personas and thus with the application of disguise, but my goal is, that he will never have to fight or kill anyone...

Well. The moment that you say 'friends with everyone' and then say 'intelligence and information gathering' that implies that he'll make enemies somewhere.
As soon as you pick a side that you're friends with in a conflict, you are automatically not-friends with the other side.
Guilt by association, as it were.
This is why you cannot make friends with everyone without being people that aren't 'you'.
A good example: you are a well known associate of Greedy mc-Moneybags. This guy, everyone knows, is deep into fraud, the black market, and general evil.
If you, as you, go squeal on him, then someone will squeal on you. If you don't, then the police force is generally going to be very unfriendly toward you, or the rebels will be. Depends on how corrupt the city is.

So yeh. Especially as an information broker; secrets are your friend, and one of those secrets should always be your identity. Much safer that way.