Building Abjurant Champion

[Malknafein]

Hello folks! Do you remember Abjurant Champion, one of best 3.5e gish PrCs?

I have some idea how to make tanky gish-abjurer at 5e.

Build:

Fighter 1: Heavy armor proficiency, martial weapons proficiency, CON save proficiency, fighting style.
Warlock 2: Invocations, warlock only spells.
Wizard 17: Spellcasting and Abjurer`s Arcane Tradition.

Main idea of concept is to use Abjurer`s Arcane Ward and fuel it with Warlock`s Armor of Shadows invocation between battles. During battles we are casting Warlock`s Armor of Agathys spell from higher spell slot granted by wizard.

This build has high AC thanks to heavy armor and Defense Fighting Style. After being hit, he casts Shield for chance to turn hit to miss. Hit also triggers Armor of Agathys and attacker takes 5 cold damage per spell level. Absorb Elements helps against elemental attacks. Both Shield and Absorb Elements fuel Arcane Ward.

Offense isn`t so good, but this build can cast Hex and swing his greatsword for 3d6+str. Greenflame Blade helps to hit multiple targets, Booming Blade gives more control.

With Improved Abjuration this build counterspells and dispels enemy`s magic even with not highest INT.

Fighter gains 6 HP each level while abjurer gains 4 HP and 2 points of Arcane Ward. Points of Arcane Ward are like HP, but we can regain them with help of Armor of Shadows at speed of 20 points/minute.

PROs

1. High AC.
2. High CON save for concentration.
3. 17/20 of wizard spellcasting, that grants 9th level spells.
4. Fiendish Vigor(recasted each hour) gives 1d4+4 temporary HP before combat.
5. Hex spell busts damage at low levels.
6. Besides Arcane Recovery, this build regains 2 warlock spell slots during short rest.
7. Besides Arcane Ward and temporary HP, this build has Second Wind once per short rest.

CONs:

1. Low DEX and WIS saves. Resilient feat and Abjurer`s Spell Resistance can help.
2. Low initiative.
3. MAD. This build needs STR, CON, INT and at least 13 CHA for multiclassing. High Elf can have 16-8-14-14-10-14 stats at 1st level.
4. Low DC of spells.

What do you think? Any recommendations or ideas?:smallsmile:

[MightyDog16]

Looks like you got it pretty well thought out!

[gfishfunk]

I have some idea how to make tanky gish-abjurer at 5e.

Build:

Fighter 1: Heavy armor proficiency, martial weapons proficiency, CON save proficiency, fighting style.
Warlock 2: Invocations, warlock only spells.
Wizard 17: Spellcasting and Abjurer`s Arcane Tradition.


I recently built one of these. A few suggestions:

1. Drop fighter lvl 1, and use Mountain Dwarf for the bonus proficiencies: Medium Armor and Warhammer or Battleaxe (which are versatile, 1 h for casting, 2 h for hitting). You lose Second Wind and fighting style. Not too bad of a trade.
2. Tank: pick up Sentinel as a feat, which does not pair well with Protection Fighting style
3. You will lose some AC in this build, but you want to be a tempting target and easy to hit to up your Armor of Agythis damage.
4. Since Hex and Armor are both no save / no attack roll spells, you can start with Warlock and drop your Charisma to a 10 (or even 8) if you start as a Warlock. That allows it o be a little less MAD.
5. This will also allow you to do 3 into Warlock and get weapon pact, or 18-19 into Wizard.

Other ideas with the build:
A. You can focus entirely on defensive spells with this build, which do not require saving throws or attack rolls.
B. Additionally, you can build spell lists that are entirely abjuration / ritual casting to make the most out of combat.
C. When you do need to avoid high-damaging hits, spam Shield from your level 1 Warlock slots

Mountain Dwarf Warlock (lvl 1 / Wizard 5)
Stats I came up with, doing a lvl 1 lock --> Wizard (this is from memory, maybe wrong)
Str: 14 (+2) = 16
Dex: 12
Con: 14 (+2) = 16
Int: 13
Wis: 8
Cha: 10
(+ Sentinel Feat)

[KorvinStarmast]

Swing his greatsword for 3d6+str*1.5.

??

Can you explain this to me please?
I have it as 2d6+str from the rule book
Where does *1.5 come from?
Is that from Hex?

[ZenBear]

Actually keeping Fighter 1 would be good to grab Tunnel Fighter FS. Pick up Warcaster and start spamming Booming Blade on every enemy that tries to pass you (along with adv to concentration) or Sentinel to keep them all from escaping.

[Rusvul]

Greatsword deals 2d6 slashing, Hex deals 1d6 necrotic. I think OP made the mistaken assumption that you add 1.5* your STR mod if you wield a weapon with two hands, which was the case in 3.5 but not in 5e.

[Specter]

When making a highly defensive character, you must be careful not to be avoided by enemies for not bringing enough pain to them.
Eldritch Knight 20 is also a viable option, especially for added melee power with Extra Attack and staying power with Indomitable. The extra hit points from Fighter could make up for the loss of Arcane Ward.
At 3rd level, the choice of spells should be Absorb Elements and Shield. Both cover major bases for taking damage (being hit and failing Reflex saves).
For the 8th level spell, Mirror Image is a solid choice, since it makes you 3 times harder to hit normally and doesn't require concentration.
For the 14th level spell, pick Haste if you want extra AC, or Fly if you need to evade melee sometimes.
For the 20th level spell (if you get that far in the class), Fire Shield is nice for damaging those who damage you. No concentration either.

These are just ideas, but I believe Absorb Elements and Shield are vital.

[Zman]

There is no 1.5xStr in 5e.

I would make sure to push this to Fighter lvl 6, go Eldritch Knight, which gives you more spells, two ASIs since your build is pretty MAD, gives you a 2nd attack which is sorely needed if you aren't going to rely on Booming Blade/Greenflame Blade, still gives you better spell slots, only 6th level Wizard spells though, but you are in combat anyway. Although Hex benefits from the extra attack. Eldritch Knight gives you a bonded weapon which is nice. Action Surge is a big deal. I would not stop fighter until Figher 2 at least for Action surge.

With your current build make sure you pick up Booming Blade and or Greenflame Blade so you have an attack Cantrip which will allow its damage to scale quite nices. With action surge this doubles up which is nice.

Warcaster will be amazing as having Advantage on Con saves means you aren't dropping your buff spells often.


Does your build really need 17 levels of Wizard Spellcasting? Sure, those spells are nice, but Fighter 2 is great. Your current build only has 4 ASIs which means you need at least 2 of those to get Str to 20, another 2 could get Int to 20 if you start with two 15s and Halfelf/Human, but probably won't. High Elf really isn't optimal for this build, and you can't start with a 6 +2 to get 8, the lowest starting Dex for a High Elf is 10, 8+2.

I would look at Eldritch Knight 6/Warlock 2/Wizard 12. 5ASIs. Start as a Variant Human and you can get a 20 Str, 20 Int, Warcaster, Great Weapon Master, with two attacks by lvl20. You can action surge for Nova goodness, you have 6th level spells and 7th level slots with additional spells from Eldritch Knight.

One question you have to ask your self is this character viable throughout all the levels, or is it just something that works at Lvl20, etc. What does this character look and feel like at level 2? 6? 10? 14? 18? 17th level Wizard Casting sounds great until you realize that for half the game you are 2 spell levels behind, etc.

[tieren]

4. Since Hex and Armor are both no save / no attack roll spells, you can start with Warlock and drop your Charisma to a 10 (or even 8) if you start as a Warlock. That allows it o be a little less MAD.


This isn't the way multiclassing works, you need the minimum in the class you start in as well as the class you move to, so he would still need 13 charisma.

[Zman]

This isn't the way multiclassing works, you need the minimum in the class you start in as well as the class you move to, so he would still need 13 charisma.

Correct, requirements have to be met in your current and future classes.

[Rusvul]

Zman, looking at your build, I'm curious- Is the Warlock dip really worth it? 2 levels in, you get 3 spells (one of which will be Armor of Agathys), 2 invocations (one of which will be Armor of Shadows), two Warlock spell slots and two cantrips. In return, you're giving up several stat points (for the CHA), 7th level spells, and Spell Resistance... I'm not sure if that's a good trade or not.

The biggest benefit Warlock gives (as far as I can see) is recharging your Ward quickly. Admittedly, it is a LOT quicker- 20pts/min rather than 2/10 min with Alarm (which becomes totally impractical at higher levels). Significant, but so is Spell Resistance (and 7th level spells)...

It's also worth noting that Armor of Shadows says 'You may cast Mage Armor on yourself at will without expending spell slots.' On yourself. Mage Armor targets one unarmored creature. So in order for it to work, you have to doff your armor, cast your spells, and then don your armor again. It's a minor setback, but an annoyance nonetheless.

[Zman]

Zman, looking at your build, I'm curious- Is the Warlock dip really worth it? 2 levels in, you get 3 spells (one of which will be Armor of Agathys), 2 invocations (one of which will be Armor of Shadows), two Warlock spell slots and two cantrips. In return, you're giving up several stat points (for the CHA), 7th level spells, and Spell Resistance... I'm not sure if that's a good trade or not.

The biggest benefit Warlock gives (as far as I can see) is recharging your Ward quickly. Admittedly, it is a LOT quicker- 20pts/min rather than 2/10 min with Alarm (which becomes totally impractical at higher levels). Significant, but so is Spell Resistance (and 7th level spells)...

It's also worth noting that Armor of Shadows says 'You may cast Mage Armor on yourself at will without expending spell slots.' On yourself. Mage Armor targets one unarmored creature. So in order for it to work, you have to doff your armor, cast your spells, and then don your armor again. It's a minor setback, but an annoyance nonetheless.

Unfortunately the character doesn't have the Cha to make Eldritch Blast work, but two 1st level spell slots per short rest for shield are nice along with the ability to recharge your abjurant bubble. Dark Ones Blessing or Fey presence can be nice.

[djreynolds]

I'm currently fielding a 7th level mountain dwarf abjurer, I never considered warlock very cool.

Currently , I use mirror image and shield spell constantly. Crazy as it sounds, if you go fighter, fine but you will need resilient wisdom at some point. I use protection from evil/good extensively on other PCs. It fuels my arcane ward, and helps them make saves and since I have proficiency in wisdom, I make most of mine. It is a toss up between con and wis saves for a caster, but you want both, but the latter may be more important.

War caster will let you use a real shield without any doubts of spell failure and Vs or Ss or Ms, and get AoO with spells, I like shocking grasp for that, and war caster gives you advantage on concentration checks.

I find you will need wisdom saves more than constitution if you have the war caster feat. EK is a good dip and so is war cleric, I like war cleric because no matter what level you dip it, you will get armor proficiencies then. And tempest cleric may give what warlock does as well.

[Submortimer]

Forget about strength. Go fighter 1/warlock 2/wizard 17, mainline dex and Int. Use GFB as your standard attack, supplemented by dueling it won't do much less damage. Pick up a shield and you'll cetainly have higher AC than your other build.

[djreynolds]

Forget about strength. Go fighter 1/warlock 2/wizard 17, mainline dex and Int. Use GFB as your standard attack, supplemented by dueling it won't do much less damage. Pick up a shield and you'll cetainly have higher AC than your other build.

He could just go bladesinger and call it a day also

[Rusvul]

Thematically, that doesn't fit. In 3.5, they got abilities that made their Mage Armor and Shield spells so powerful that they far surpassed any mundane safeguards; a Bladesinger might be a better spellcasting warrior, but they're not an Abjurant champion.

I would comment on the mechanics of Bladesinger vs Abjurer, but I don't have SCAG, so I really can't.

[Specter]

If AC is the matter, start as a Variant Human Fighter with War Caster, continuing either as a Wizard or an Eldritch Knight.

Plate + Shield + Defense = 21
Plate + Shield + Defense + Shield (spell) = 21 (26 as a reaction)
Plate + Shield + Shield (spell) + Defense + Shield of Faith (obtained with Magic Initiate) = 23 (28 as a reaction)

Even with advantage, this guy would be a pain in the ass to hit. :smallwink:

[gfishfunk]

This isn't the way multiclassing works, you need the minimum in the class you start in as well as the class you move to, so he would still need 13 charisma.

Aha. This is one of the reasons I love throwing out my approaches - someone points out how I missed something in the rules. I reworked my numbers (using the point-buy system) to make it work, and it is severely MAD.

I'm thinking about switching out optimization by dropping the Mountain Dwarf race, grabbing something higher Dex (or going variant human) and making it Dex based rather than Str based, and then putting 3 levels into Warlock to get the Pact Blade. Not sure, though.

The theoretical build is interesting, but those low levels make it very difficult: put too many levels in anything but 1 Lock and the rest into Wizard keeps your Armor of Agathys fairly weak. Levels 1-5 will be quite difficult. Hitting level 6 allows you to cast AoA in a 3rd level slot, which is finally giving decent bite to the retaliation damage and a decent HP increase for the Armor itself.

[gfishfunk]

If AC is the matter, start as a Variant Human Fighter with War Caster, continuing either as a Wizard or an Eldritch Knight.

Plate + Shield + Defense = 21
Plate + Shield + Defense + Shield (spell) = 21 (26 as a reaction)
Plate + Shield + Shield (spell) + Defense + Shield of Faith (obtained with Magic Initiate) = 23 (28 as a reaction)

Even with advantage, this guy would be a pain in the ass to hit. :smallwink:

I like the build, but that isn't this build. The idea is to exploit Armor of Agathys, temp hit points, and the abjuration Arcane Ward. Being unable to be hit is not as helpful in this build...you want to be hit so that the retaliatory damage will weaken and kill things for you. Your main job is to get hit and keep the Ward infused with hit points, and then eventually cast another Armor of Agathys when the first one finally wears off. A high AC is counter-productive, which is why this is such a weird build.

[Specter]

I like the build, but that isn't this build. The idea is to exploit Armor of Agathys, temp hit points, and the abjuration Arcane Ward. Being unable to be hit is not as helpful in this build...you want to be hit so that the retaliatory damage will weaken and kill things for you. Your main job is to get hit and keep the Ward infused with hit points, and then eventually cast another Armor of Agathys when the first one finally wears off. A high AC is counter-productive, which is why this is such a weird build.

Well, the Abjurant Champion as a 3.5 prestige class was a guy that had high AC due to abjuration spells. If you want to damage people who damage you, you should be looking at Tempest Cleric, Frenzy Barbarian or stuff like that. I'm just following the title of the thread.

[gfishfunk]

Well, the Abjurant Champion as a 3.5 prestige class was a guy that had high AC due to abjuration spells. If you want to damage people who damage you, you should be looking at Tempest Cleric, Frenzy Barbarian or stuff like that. I'm just following the title of the thread.

I did not see that there is a 3.5 reference in the title. Anyhow, he specifically mentions the Armor of Agathys + abjuration Arcane Ward. I'm not criticizing your post, but explaining what his build is specifically, as discussed in-thread and in his first post.

Every melee hit (at level 6) will do 15 cold damage, no rolling. This is comparable to a Tempest Cleric (2d8, or max it at 16), but only for the first hit. He deals damage on every melee hit. All he needs to do is keep at least 1 temp HP and keep the Arcane Ward up. When he picks up a 7th level spell slot, every melee hit against him will do 35 cold damage in retaliation, no rolling. To get this to work, he just needs to keep the Arcane Ward filled with HP and his own Armor of Agathys up at max level. Tempest Cleric is nothing in terms of retaliation damage to this build.

On the other hand, that is ALL that this build can do well.

[miburo]

Interesting build. I would probably simplify and go Fighter 2/Abjurer 18. Get plate + shield, a longsword and dueling for damage (or greatsword + defense for AC). Variant Human with Heavy Armor Master if you want even more tankiness.

Now you get 9th level spells, have less MAD (med Str, med Con, high Int), you can use Action Surge for some burst damage when you need it, and you can recharge the ward through Alarm and regular use of Shield. It is true that you are lacking Armor of Agathys (and can't recharge with Armor of Shadows), but overall you are a more versatile character who still fits the mold.

From a 3.5e Abjurant Champion standpoint (which granted was just a 5 level prestige class bolted onto every gish build ever), you've got the spells, Abjurant Armor = Arcane Ward, Swift Abjuration = Action Surge.

[MrStabby]

So some of this may depend on stats rolled but you could do something like:

Svirfneblin + Svirfnebin magic feat to recharge arcane ward
Cleric - War, tempest or nature for heavy armour + offensive capability (nature if high wisdom) without dropping any spell levels (i.e. on even numbered levels you have the same available wizard spells at the same available level as a pure wizard).

This lets you only spend one level on warlock when you want it (and just for armour of agathys), preserving your precious casting ability.

Once you hit level 18 (level 17 wizard) you may want to take a couple more cleric levels rather than round out the wizard ones.

[djreynolds]

Interesting build. I would probably simplify and go Fighter 2/Abjurer 18. Get plate + shield, a longsword and dueling for damage (or greatsword + defense for AC). Variant Human with Heavy Armor Master if you want even more tankiness.

Now you get 9th level spells, have less MAD (med Str, med Con, high Int), you can use Action Surge for some burst damage when you need it, and you can recharge the ward through Alarm and regular use of Shield. It is true that you are lacking Armor of Agathys (and can't recharge with Armor of Shadows), but overall you are a more versatile character who still fits the mold.

From a 3.5e Abjurant Champion standpoint (which granted was just a 5 level prestige class bolted onto every gish build ever), you've got the spells, Abjurant Armor = Arcane Ward, Swift Abjuration = Action Surge.


So some of this may depend on stats rolled but you could do something like:

Svirfneblin + Svirfnebin magic feat to recharge arcane ward
Cleric - War, tempest or nature for heavy armour + offensive capability (nature if high wisdom) without dropping any spell levels (i.e. on even numbered levels you have the same available wizard spells at the same available level as a pure wizard).

This lets you only spend one level on warlock when you want it (and just for armour of agathys), preserving your precious casting ability.

Once you hit level 18 (level 17 wizard) you may want to take a couple more cleric levels rather than round out the wizard ones.

Two very cool and unique Abjurant Champions, both are cool and will work

[choryukami]

You can always do Fighter 1->Wizard 2,3 -> Fighter levels beyond that. I did that once for a Divination/EK character Str/Int build (with the Lucky feat), so it might not work with an abjurer (I don't think Arcane Ward scales as well as Portent if you stop taking wizard levels).

But I think a build this could also work with is a Dex/Int (or Str/Int) Fighter/Bladesinger Wizard.

[Malknafein]

Thanks for your replies! Some points:

1. Fixed mistake with 1.5 STR mod to damage with 2-handed weapons at first post.

2. Cleric dip instead fighter dip for heavy armor proficiency sounds good, but increases MADness.

3. I like the idea of maxing wizard levels, cause this means more points of Arcane Ward and more spellcasting. Extra attack isn`t critical, this build is tank and not damage dealer. He needs to hold enemies, while party warclock or sorc is making tons of damage.

And I have some question. Is it possible to use shield and weapon and to cast [wizard] spells? War Caster removes need of free hand for somatic components, but you still need material component for some spells or spellcasting focus.

[gfishfunk]

War Caster does not help with material components, but if you are willing to work with your GM to add your necessary components hanging on your shield (like a tribal fetish), that could work. It is worth noting which spells have material components. You can, however, stow your weapon as a part of your move, and then cast the spell with your free hand. OR you can use a spell focus for things that do not require the consumption of material components, so you could go quarter staff + shield.

I imagine that you ask, thinking that you would go Shield Master, War Caster.

Alternatively: Use a versatile weapon as 2H for attacks and 1H for spell casting; simply use your attack as a combat maneuver when so desired (Pushing, tripping, whatever). Grab Sentinel feat for stopping power. Then, you are free to increase stats with ASI or pick up Durable (an underrated feat if you typically have 1 - 2 short rests during an adventuring day) or Tough for the HP bump.

[Rusvul]

It seems there are three builds that would work fairly well for this. I'm not sure which would be best, really.


Fighter 6/ Warlock 2/ Wizard 12- You lose out on a lot of spellcasting and Arcane Ward, but you get two attacks per round, Armor of Agathys, Armor of Shadows, and either an EK weapon bond and some extra spellcasting or some Battlemaster dice- I'm not really sure which would be more valuable. The downside is that it takes a long time to come online- If you take your first two Wizard levels after Fighter 5, then your two Warlock levels, you're coming online at level 9. Kind of late. I'm not sure if that would be the best order, but it's what stands out to me.

Fighter 1/ Warlock 2/ Wizard 17- You don't lose much compared to a Wizard 20, but you're a few levels behind on spellcasting. You have a little more frontline potential, it might be worth taking some weapon feats, but you're probably not durable enough to be on the front all the time. While it would work very well if you were starting at 20th, it seems like it would be frustrating at lower levels.

Fighter 1/ Wizard 19- A good deal less MAD. Probably a good choice for any Wizard who wants durability. War Cleric 1 is probably better, though. It's not really an Abjurant Champion- Mostly just an Abjurer with heavy armor and a pike.


Ideally, a build would be decent at every stage of the game... I'm mostly curious about the first one- It certainly holds its own as a Fighter until level 5, but past that... Would it just become a jack of all trades, master of none?

[MrStabby]

For fighter 6, Warlock 2, Wizard 12:

Consider fighter 7 for eldritch knight warcaster ability. Otherwise battlemaster is pretty ok. For style I think dueling is good, so you can use a shield, do enough damage to remain a target and dont need any other feats to get the most out of it (the feats of ten use up bonus actions or reactions that you are more likely to want to keep free for spells or manoeuvres).

I would go battlemaster 5 first (it is pretty powerful early game) and play as a pure fighter, also con saves are nice. Eldritch knight gives you two caster levels for Armor of Agathys when you get it (at 6th level). (If you were to go EK then EK 5, Warlock 1, EK 6, Abjurer 7 might be a better start.)

Then abjurer 5. This lets you use spells like shield from your 6th level (useful as a fighter) and gives you the temp hitpoints you need. In the short term a ranged cantrip gives you a bit more flexibility. 2nd level spells give you blur and mirror image. At this stage your AC and spells to stop you being hit should stop too much pressure on your arcane ward. Other spells such as misty step make you more than a tank - you can really hunt down the enemies you need to. The 5th level is for 3rd level spell slots so you can power armor of Agathys and for the small boost to the ward.

Warlock 1 next. This gets you Armor of Agathys which can pre-emptively charge your ward. it also further boosts your short rest resources (so great if you are playing with a warlock or monk). Shield an extra two times per short rest is pretty good (try and use the arcane ward to take some of the damage first to replenish with shield).

Personally I would then take the build to abjurer 7 - this is where I think the power challenge lies. When you hit 7 though you can AoA out of a level 4 slot, have an ok arcane ward and are able to contribute in other ways through your spells.

Only now would I take the second level of warlock. Now you can go into every fight with full ward up. Before this stage I thought that the lack of value from a ward meant this was less of an advantage and less good than just better armor of Agathys.