Help with a Daring outlaw build.

[TheTomikaze15]

So let me preface this with its not the normal daring outlaw build you probably expected. It's based on a homebrew daring outlaw class found in the gitp forum but I can't post the link yet because I don't have the post count. Basically the class gets full BAB, good fort and reflex, weapon finesse lvl 1, full rogue SA progression and int to damage at lvl 5 among some other things.

Now I'm not here to discuss the power or anything of this class as I'm playing with a new dm and he has approved this class as we both believe it's what the rogue and swash should have been.

My party: Cleric, Sorc, Favored Soul, Crusader and a BardBlade. all t3 or higher.

Books allowed: All official except dragon magazine.

Flaws are allowed, I'm not sure how we are handling magic items or gold since this is a new dm to me and we are starting at lvl 7.

What I am here to ask is:

#1. What race would you guys choose for a rogue? I've considered Strongheart halfling, human and whisper gnome. I'm not sure if we are allowed to buy off LA but I would consider a LA+1 race. No templates are allowed.

#2 Now I usually play a caster, but I wanted to try something different. So I don't know much about feats for this type of character other than the TWF line, Craven and possibly gloom razor.

#3 level dips that would be beneificial? I want to take a 1lvl sword sage dip at 9 to pick up assassins stance and shadow blade. That being said my attributes will probably be Dex > Int > Con > Cha > Str > Wis

The campaign will be a custom fantasy setting, enemies will most be Orcs, hinted at dwarves and probably the occasional monster/undead encounter.

So that being said, I'm looking for some advice on building this character. If I'm not allowed to ask homebrew help here I apologize.

[Telonius]

I'm guessing this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?188150-3-5-Rogue-Swashbuckler-Remix-The-Daring-Outlaw) is the class in question?

For the race, I've always been partial to Changeling for any social sneaky class. Anything with a Dex bonus would be good for it too; and of course Human and Strongheart Halfling are always solid options for the extra feat.

For Feats: Craven is something you want as soon as you can get it. Gloom Razor is kind of nifty, but Shadow Blade (its prereq feat) will give you more of a benefit at less cost. (If you're going to be dipping Swordsage, you don't have to worry about Martial Study costs, and it becomes a lot more attractive). Darkstalker for when you get into higher levels. If it weren't for the prereq, I'd almost be tempted to go for Power Critical. The Two-weapon fighting line would bear looking into, as well, since you're going to be fishing for a lot more sneak attack damage than the typical Rogue.

Dips: Swordsage is very, very nice. Lion Totem Barbarian (Complete Champion) would be nice for a full-attack sneak attack Pounce when you win initiative. A two-level dip in Ranger would get you Favored Enemy (probably Orc, since those seem to be on the horizon), free TWF (which you probably want anyway), and the ability to use some nice Wands without making UMD checks.

[Darrin]

#1. What race would you guys choose for a rogue? I've considered Strongheart halfling, human and whisper gnome. I'm not sure if we are allowed to buy off LA but I would consider a LA+1 race. No templates are allowed.


Human or Strongheart Halfing tend to be the best choices because TWF builds tend to be feat-intensive. Human is better because the halfing gets shafted a bit on damage (-1 due to weapon size, and -1 due to Str penalty), but they get a hide bonus and that pebble thing. Whisper Gnome makes fantastic sneakers, but don't get the bonus feat. If you prefer to put more focus on your ability scores, then Savage Progression Drow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) is pretty nifty: Dex +2, Con -2, Int +2.



#2 Now I usually play a caster, but I wanted to try something different. So I don't know much about feats for this type of character other than the TWF line, Craven and possibly gloom razor.


Travel Devotion, Travel Devotion, and then some more Travel Devotion. (Basically, when in doubt, get more uses of Travel Devotion.) To make TWF functional, you need a reliable way to move + full attack on the same turn. Pouncebarian dip is also useful here, as would be a Mantled Psychic Warrior 2 dip (Freedom mantle for dimension hop/hustle). If you've got enough Travel Devotion, then I tend to steer towards Combat Reflexes + Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook) so you can use TWF on AoOs.



#3 level dips that would be beneificial? I want to take a 1lvl sword sage dip at 9 to pick up assassins stance and shadow blade. That being said my attributes will probably be Dex > Int > Con > Cha > Str > Wis


By RAW, your first stance has to be a level 1 stance (usually Island of Blades), but ask your DM if he's flexible on this. Swordsages also get another stance at 2nd level, so Swordsage 2 is a popular dip.

Cloistered Cleric 1 is good, but could create problems if your group uses multiclass XP penalties. It's easier to get Travel Devotion this way, and increase your daily uses via Extra Turning (and various magic items that increase daily TU uses). Extra damage from Knowledge Devotion is always nice on a TWF build. I'm partial to adding the Magic Domain as well for access to spell-trigger items (check out Wand Chambers in Dungeonscape p. 34): Sehanine Moonbow and the Dragon deity Io have Travel/Knowledge/Magic domains. Worshipping the entire Asgardian pantheon (Deities & Demigods p. 167) is also nice for grabbing Travel/Knowledge/War (Weapon Focus: Shortsword).

Psychic Warrior 2 with the Mantled Warrior ACF (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) gets you two ways to move with swift actions: dimension hop and hustle. However, this makes your Multiple Ability Dependency (MAD) even worse, as you need high Wis for more PPs.

Pouncebarian I already mentioned: Spirit Lion Totem from Complete Champion gives you pounce at 1st level, but you can add another level and get the Wolf Totem from Unearthed Arcana to pick up Improved Trip as a bonus feat (ignoring prereqs).

Fighter 2 is good for picking up those fighter bonus feats you're short on. Hit-and-Run Fighter ACF from Drow of the Underdark adds your Dex bonus on damage to flat-footed opponents. You can also add an extra bonus feat from Races of Stone, swapping tower shield proficiency for an Exotic Shield Proficiency, which is useful if you need to drop a bonus feat due to Dragonborn of Bahamut.



The campaign will be a custom fantasy setting, enemies will most be Orcs, hinted at dwarves and probably the occasional monster/undead encounter.


Ranger 2 wouldn't be unheard of... Favored Enemy: Orc might actually be useful. You get Track, TWF, and several ACFs that can add flexibility to the character. I'm rather fond of the Spiritual Connection ACF (Complete Champion), and I usually trade Track away for a Dragonblooded feat via Dragonborn of Bahamut: typically Dragon Tail for TWF builds, as this adds a secondary tail attack to your full attack routine.

[TheTomikaze15]

Okay well I think Im going to go with the Strongheart halfling or whisper gnome a dip into cloistered cleric, may take two levels of swordsage but I haven't completely decided on that yet. We don't enforce multi classing penalties. So maybe something like

DO 1/CC1/Unarmed Swordsage1(to get shadow blade earlier)/DO5/SS1(to get assassins stance?)


Cloistered Cleric 1 is good, but could create problems if your group uses multiclass XP penalties. It's easier to get Travel Devotion this way, and increase your daily uses via Extra Turning (and various magic items that increase daily TU uses). Extra damage from Knowledge Devotion is always nice on a TWF build. I'm partial to adding the Magic Domain as well for access to spell-trigger items (check out Wand Chambers in Dungeonscape p. 34): Sehanine Moonbow and the Dragon deity Io have Travel/Knowledge/Magic domains. Worshipping the entire Asgardian pantheon (Deities & Demigods p. 167) is also nice for grabbing Travel/Knowledge/War (Weapon Focus: Shortsword).


Ive found out its going to be a low magic item campaign so I'm not sure how readily available wands and the like would be, but I do like the idea of the war domain because between the weapon focus and being small it would cancel out the -2 from TWF.

Though would celebrity be a bad choice? I like the idea of 30 speed on a halfling or 40 on the whisper gnome.

[Darrin]

Ive found out its going to be a low magic item campaign so I'm not sure how readily available wands and the like would be, but I do like the idea of the war domain because between the weapon focus and being small it would cancel out the -2 from TWF.


I'm not really seeing anything in the Halfling or Gnome pantheons with War and Travel. Is this for any particular campaign world or a generic campaign world?



Though would celebrity be a bad choice? I like the idea of 30 speed on a halfling or 40 on the whisper gnome.

The third domain after Travel and Knowledge is kinda just gravy, so Celerity is a decent pick. Makes your Travel Devotion more useful.

[TheTomikaze15]

I'm not really seeing anything in the Halfling or Gnome pantheons with War and Travel. Is this for any particular campaign world or a generic campaign world?

The third domain after Travel and Knowledge is kinda just gravy, so Celerity is a decent pick. Makes your Travel Devotion more useful.

It's just a generic campaign world created by the DM. I'm going to try to put a lvl by lvl build together tonight and come back for some advice on that.

I've not got too much knowledge on all of the deities either so Im still up for recommendations on that lol