Quicken Spell - Free or Swift action? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

ShurikVch

2015-12-15, 01:03 PM

Discussion so far:

Do note, though, that free actions "for casting quickened spells" were redefined to be swift actions. From page 86 of Complete Arcane:
Casting a quickened spell is a swift action (instead of a free action, as stated in the Quicken Spell feat description in the Player’s Handbook).
2) Player's Handbook > Complete Arcane
I'm not sure how that's supposed to be helpful. Are you claiming that swift and immediate actions don't exist, because they're not in the Player's Handbook but are in Complete Arcane? :smallconfused:
No, I claiming quickened spell is still a free action because Player's Handbook says so
If splat contradict Core in general - rather than specific - then splat is wrong, and Core is correct
Then you do think that there are no swift or immediate actions actions in D&D, because the change of action type for a quickened spell is part of the rules for introducing swift and immediate actions into the game.
No.
Quicken Dragonmark, Quicken Legacy, Quicken Mystery, Quicken Spell-Like Ability, and Quicken Utterance are all Swift actions, because feat descriptions in their respective books says so

On the other hand, Quicken Spell - along with Quicken Turning, Quicken Breath, and Quicken Manifestation - is a free action, because feat description says so

While splats are able to introduce new types of action, they are shouldn't change action type for Quicken Spell, because:
1) It's nowhere within their authority to change Core material; only Errata is able to change rule in Player's Handbook
2) If we accept that "swift action" rule, than the only ways to use the Multispell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#multispell) feat are Synad's racial Multitask and the Ruby Knight Vindicator's Divine Impetus

Quicken Power originally was undefined type of action, thus fall back to 3.0 rule (free action), but it was clarified in Complete Psionic (swift action); I accept this ruling, because:
1. Expanded Psionics Handbook is not a Core
2. It don't cause any obvious dysfunctions
There is no disagreement involved here. The Complete Arcane text agrees with the actions associated with Quicken Spell and Feather Fall stated in Player's Handbook, and explicitly changes them. This is distinct from simply listing different action types than what's stated in PH, without clear note of the changes.
Take it to a new thread guys.
TLDR, my points:
1. Even if Complete Arcane try to change rules for Quicken Spell, it have no authority to do so, and the only correct rule is in the Player's Handbook
2. Accepting ruling "Quicken Spell is Swift Action" cause direct dysfunction with Multispell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#multispell) feat
3. If we will accept rules from Complete Arcane over the Player's Handbook, does it mean we should accept that one too?
Should a character find herself in a position (because of changed alignment, lost levels, or the like) where she no longer meets the requirements of a prestige class, she loses all special abilities (but not Hit Dice, base attack bonus, or base save bonus) gained from levels of the prestige class.

Zanos

2015-12-15, 01:10 PM

ComaVision

2015-12-15, 01:12 PM

The SRD and Rules Compendium both say Quicken Spell is a swift action.

torrasque666

2015-12-15, 01:14 PM

1. It contains a specific override for the PHB.
2. Multispell is a 3.0 feat and therefore requires an update, subject to DM discretion, to be used with 3.5 material.
3. How is this even relevant to Quicken Spell?
In the PHB it states that its a free action.

And I'll agree with point 1. Unlike the Prestige Class rule, the rule about Swifts/Immediates makes explicit reference to the old rule and then says "we're changing this." The PrC rule just says "this is how it works." in such a way that it assumes that its how its always worked.

Dezea

2015-12-15, 01:14 PM

Before even getting into the debate, I'd like to say that Rules of Sanity (Yeah, i'm overriding RAI here) tell us that no, you can't cast as much spell in a round as you have quickened spells prepared.

Or you'll cast Orcus. Lot's of them.

torrasque666

2015-12-15, 01:16 PM

Zanos

2015-12-15, 01:17 PM

In the PHB it states that its a free action.
I am aware. I am arguing that CA and subsequent printings take precedent because they specifically state that the PHB is wrong, instead of only containing text that is not compatible.

Before even getting into the debate, I'd like to say that Rules of Sanity (Yeah, i'm overriding RAI here) tell us that no, you can't cast as much spell in a round as you have quickened spells prepared.

Or you'll cast Orcus. Lot's of them.
Not relevant. The original PHB printing still indicated that you could only cast one quickened spell per round. This would, however, let you cast a Quickened Spell, use your standard for whatever, then use your swift for something else. Like maybe casting a naturally swift action spell, or activating a swift action item.

Dezea

2015-12-15, 01:17 PM

To be fair, it does state that only one "free-action" spell can be cast per turn.

Oh, my bad.

No Orcus for you, then.

That being said I'll agree with the argument you made about the change of rules.

Kraken

2015-12-15, 01:24 PM

I know that once swift actions were invented, quickened spells started being mentioned as taking a swift action, but where does it actually say 'this is a change to the PHB rules of quicken,' otherwise the mentioning of quickened spells as taking a swift action could be viewed as an editing error.

heavyfuel

2015-12-15, 01:26 PM

I am aware. I am arguing that CA and subsequent printings take precedent because they specifically state that the PHB is wrong, instead of only containing text that is not compatible.

Do you mean the Rules Compendium, or do you have the Special Edition Player's Handbook?

Cerefel

2015-12-15, 01:27 PM

1. Even if Complete Arcane try to change rules for Quicken Spell, it have no authority to do so, and the only correct rule is in the Player's Handbook

That's like claiming the Rules Compendium has no right to change existing rules; Complete Arcane is a source that is more recent than the PHB and is more specifically about magic than the PHB so it overrides the PHB as an existing source.

Zanos

2015-12-15, 01:28 PM

Kraken

2015-12-15, 01:33 PM

Yep, there it is. Seems pretty clear to me then, they're a swift action, unless you're going to play with a DM who will let you get away with technical arguments about the PHB not being overridden due to source rules or somesuch. Which I wouldn't say is impossible, but I imagine a more typical reaction to trying to bring that argument to a real table would be to get hit over the head with a DMG.

Âmesang

2015-12-15, 01:35 PM

This thread reminds me of how torn I am regarding the Complete… series, for while I enjoy the upgrade to Augmented Alchemy I'm none too keen on the downgrade to Automatic Quicken Spell. :smallconfused: Either way, I have a habit of defaulting to the SRD simply out of convenience.

EDIT: Also wouldn't Multispell just act an exception of the rule? Effectively giving you a bonus swift action, but usable only for casting a quickened spell (though I imagine you could spend your initial swift action in whatever way's applicable).

Zanos

2015-12-15, 01:50 PM

ShurikVch

2015-12-15, 02:39 PM

Please note: so-called "Rules change" is not even a proper feat re-print, but just a single string of words on sidebar somewhere

1. It contains a specific override for the PHB.But is it able to override PHB?
2. Multispell is a 3.0 feat and therefore requires an update, subject to DM discretion, to be used with 3.5 material.Was updated (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/files/DnD35_Epic_Handbook.zip) to 3.5 in 2003, thus still legal; also, SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#multispell) is 3.5

3. How is this even relevant to Quicken Spell?Because it's similar situation: CArc attempt to override DMG; either we accept it (poor Dragon Disciple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm)! :smallfrown:), or say CArc overstepped it's authority

The SRD and Rules Compendium both say Quicken Spell is a swift action.Not a primary sources

That's like claiming the Rules Compendium has no right to change existing rulesHint: it isn't! :smallamused:

Yep, there it is. Seems pretty clear to me then, they're a swift action, unless you're going to play with a DM who will let you get away with technical arguments about the PHB not being overridden due to source rules or somesuch.But how about the "Core only" games?

Debatra

2015-12-15, 02:47 PM

fishyfishyfishy

2015-12-15, 02:47 PM

I'm afb right now but I'm pretty sure the newest version of the 3.5 PHB contains the errata in the back of the book which details swift and immediate actions and how a quickened spell is a swift. It is also in the Rules Compendium and the Spell Compendium.

Cerefel

2015-12-15, 02:55 PM

Hint: it isn't! :smallamused:

Except it is. Rules Compendium is the priority source on rules and Complete Arcane is a priority source on magic, so it's a pretty similar situation.

AvatarVecna

2015-12-15, 03:02 PM

Was updated (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/files/DnD35_Epic_Handbook.zip) to 3.5 in 2003, thus still legal; also, SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#multispell) is 3.5

Except no: the SRD is clearly not the 3.5 stuff, because 3.5's version of "Automatic Quicken Spell" was first introduced in Complete Arcane, and only affects a single spell level; the SRD version is the 3.0 version, which applied to multiple spell levels per feat invested. Regardless, whether splatbooks have the authority to override the Player's Handbook is a RAW argument that not even Curmudgeon is willing to listen to (as evidenced by the first post), which means it's either wrong, or it's so needlessly pedantic that no DM will ever allow that reading.

fishyfishyfishy

2015-12-15, 03:07 PM

Except it is. Rules Compendium is the priority source on rules and Complete Arcane is a priority source on magic, so it's a pretty similar situation.

That is not what the rule on primary and secondary sources says.

Errata Rule: Primary Sources
When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees. Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the DUNGEON MASTER's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The DUNGEON MASTER's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.

Italics added for emphasis. The PHB is the primary source for rules about playing the game, which covers feats. When a splat book contradicts the PHB, the PHB is the correct source. That said, the first sentence in this paragraph makes it clear that official errata overrides this. Quicken Spell was given errata that makes it a Swift action.

ShurikVch

2015-12-15, 03:20 PM

Quicken Spell was given errata that makes it a Swift action.Please, can somebody link me that errata?
I have PHB errata from 2006, but it doesn't mentioned Quicken Spell, and don't even have words "Swift Action"

MisterKaws

2015-12-15, 03:25 PM

Please note: so-called "Rules change" is not even a proper feat re-print, but just a single string of words on sidebar somewhere

But is it able to override PHB?Was updated (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/files/DnD35_Epic_Handbook.zip) to 3.5 in 2003, thus still legal; also, SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#multispell) is 3.5
Because it's similar situation: CArc attempt to override DMG; either we accept it (poor Dragon Disciple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm)! :smallfrown:), or say CArc overstepped it's authority
Not a primary sources
Hint: it isn't! :smallamused:
But how about the "Core only" games?

Core-only use core-only rules, but SRD is higher priority than core whenever rules are concerned, and it uses swift actions for quickened spells, thus it was just lack of revision for the epic rules when the SRD was released, so just say multispell gives you a swift action for casting quickened stuff and that's it, even better, use the swordsage's dual-boost rules: whenever you initiate a boost(cast a quickened spell) you can initiate another boost(quickened spell) as a free action.

Âmesang

2015-12-15, 03:26 PM

Whilst attempting to search I got distracted by the PHB web enhancement with its half-orc wizard, Borchuk, and his toad familiar, Lump-Lump.

fishyfishyfishy

2015-12-15, 03:27 PM

As I said before, I think it is in the reprint they made a few years ago. It's also in both the Rules Compendium and the Spell Compendium. You have also been linked to the SRD where it is stated to be a swift action. You can find the downloadable version of the SRD that WotC released on their old website with a quick Google search. What more evidence do you require?

Flickerdart

2015-12-15, 03:27 PM

The SRD is not a primary source, and can't override any book.

MisterKaws

2015-12-15, 03:32 PM

The SRD is not a primary source, and can't override any book.

AFAIK, the SRD has the right to override anything else...

Agincourt

2015-12-15, 03:32 PM

I don't see what hangs in the balance whether or not Quicken Spell is termed a "Free" action or a "Swift" action. The PHB is clear. You can only cast one quickened spell per round.

Complete Arcane introduced the "swift" action spell. (Perhaps they should have termed it a "quickened spell" so that there would be none of this PHB takes precedence debate, but for clarity reasons they introduced a new term.) Complete Arcane makes clear that a swift action spell take the same action as a quickened spell. Whatever rules the PHB used for quickened spells also exist for swift actions.

iDesu

2015-12-15, 03:34 PM

I don't see what hangs in the balance whether or not Quicken Spell is termed a "Free" action or a "Swift" action. The PHB is clear. You can only cast one quickened spell per round.

The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is that if quicken spell is ruled as a free action then you can still a swift action spell that round for up to 3 spells.

With a box

2015-12-15, 03:35 PM

oh, Am I only one thought that quicken spell uses a swift action and a free action?

fishyfishyfishy

2015-12-15, 03:36 PM

The SRD is not a primary source, and can't override any book.

What about the Spell Compendium and Rules Compendium?

The RC has a blurb in the beginning that tells you it is intended to set precedent on all rule interactions and conflicting interpretations.

Agincourt

2015-12-15, 03:37 PM

The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is that if quicken spell is ruled as a free action then you can still a swift action spell that round for up to 3 spells.

No, absolutely not. The same rule that coined the "Swift" action spell makes clear that you cannot cast a quickened spell the same round as a swift action spell.

Endril_69

2015-12-15, 03:41 PM

Rules Compendium takes precedence over all the rules before it:

"The book you hold in your hands is the deﬁnitive guide forhow to play the 3.5 revision of the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS
Roleplaying Game. Years in the making, it gathers resourcesfrom a wide variety of supplements, rules errata, and rulesclarifications to provide an authoritative guide for playingthe D&D game. It updates and elucidates the rules, as well as expanding on them in ways that make it more fun andeasier to play. When a preexisting core book or supplement differs with the rules herein, Rules Compendium is meant to take precedence. If you have a question on howto play D&D at the table, this book is meant to answer that question."

They spell it out pretty clearly. And the RC says quickened spells are swift actions. And to answer your first question, "The only action such a creature can take on its turn isa single move action."

If you really want your template to allow free/swift/immediate actions, and care about that more than following the "official" ruling, you can just agree to do that with your gaming group. I feel like your question has already been answered, multiple times.

TaiLiu

2015-12-15, 03:43 PM

Whilst attempting to search I got distracted by the PHB web enhancement with its half-orc wizard, Borchuk, and his toad familiar, Lump-Lump.
Link? :smallbiggrin:

Flickerdart

2015-12-15, 03:52 PM

AFAIK, the SRD has the right to override anything else...
Why would you think that? The SRD has no such statements about itself, certainly.

Rules Compendium takes precedence over all the rules before it
The Premium Player's Handbook is not before it, and thus takes precedence over RC. Anyone know if it includes the change?

Also, our favourite Curmudgeon's most delightful argument is that Rules Compendium doesn't have the authority to declare itself to have precedence, since it's not a primary source for anything.

Endril_69

2015-12-15, 03:56 PM

Âmesang

2015-12-15, 04:22 PM

Link? :smallbiggrin:
My copy was part of a digital version of the PHB, but hopefully this Wizard's link (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20030718a) (inside a .zip file) should provide one with Lump Lump and the other atypical, pre-generated characters.

Flickerdart

2015-12-15, 04:24 PM

How else would you expect WotC to say "use this book for rules"?
Issuing errata to the PHB, DMG, and MM rules about precedence that says "Rules Compendium is the bee's knees" would be one way. Acknowledging that the RC changes rules and updating them for the premium PHB, DMG, and MM would be another.

Endril_69

2015-12-15, 04:27 PM

Issuing errata to the PHB, DMG, and MM rules about precedence that says "Rules Compendium is the bee's knees" would be one way. Acknowledging that the RC changes rules and updating them for the premium PHB, DMG, and MM would be another.

Didn't they do that with the opening paragraph in the RC?

DarkSonic1337

2015-12-15, 04:32 PM

It's simply a matter of saying it in the wrong book. The player's handbook says that the player's handbook is the primary source for rules of the game, and that any disagreements in other sources are wrong. So you can't put a disagreement like "these are really the rules" in another source....because they'll be wrong.

1. Anything other than 1 is false
2. 1 is false

See the problem?

Anlashok

2015-12-15, 04:39 PM

Yep. WotC lied to you all and published a book that means absolutely nothing because even though it says it contains rules it doesn't actually contains rules because only the PHB can have the rules about the rules.

Endril_69

2015-12-15, 04:43 PM

torrasque666

2015-12-15, 04:50 PM

Does the PHB actually say that? I never read that. Maybe they said that in an FAQ, but the RC would supercede that, wouldn't it? If WotC says one book should be used first, then 3 years later says use this new book first, wouldn't you use the newer one by default?
Its at the beginning of each Errata file. However it does not state that primary sources cannot lose their relevancy on a topic or that a different source other than the PHB, DMG, or MM1 cannot be a primary source.

Endril_69

2015-12-15, 04:59 PM

Segev

2015-12-15, 05:11 PM

If only the authors of Complete Arcane had known how pedantic people would get over whether or not to accept a rules change to one Core PHB feat to bring it more in line with the new action type introduced, they'd have worded their rule as, "You cannot use Quicken Spell in the same round in which you use a Swift action," and thus used less obviously-clear meaning to get the same result.

KillianHawkeye

2015-12-15, 05:22 PM

Also, our favourite Curmudgeon's most delightful argument is that Rules Compendium doesn't have the authority to declare itself to have precedence, since it's not a primary source for anything.

I don't understand the argument here. The RC is an official WotC book, it's licensed; it's not open gaming material. It specifically states all that, and it specifically says it has precedence. How else would you expect WotC to say "use this book for rules"? It says it uses updated material and has errata. Seems legit to me.

I agree.

Yes, the Rules Compendium doesn't have the authority to declare itself anything at all simply because it's a book and not a sentient being. However, that's not what's happening. It was Wizards of the Coast, the authors and publishers of all post-1999 official D&D material, who told us that Rules Compendium takes precedence over other sources. Is anybody actually arguing that the authors lack the authority to do that??

And to continue to be perfectly honest: regarding the issue of publication dates, the "Premium" re-releases of the core books were nothing more than a lazy cash grab. It's pretty obvious that zero effort went into making sure they were updated to be consistent with the latest version of the rules, so they basically shouldn't count.

Flickerdart

2015-12-15, 05:38 PM

I see the paragraph you're referring to, but wouldn't the RC be the same as an official errata file, since it says to use its rules and it's an official WotC book? Or wouldn't it be considered a primary source for rules questions, since that's the purpose the book serves?

Errata is errata. Books are books. There's no "the same."

they basically shouldn't count.
This is a case of document precedence. There's no "basically" here. It's a RAW, legalistic argument, and artful pedantry triumphs over common sense. Yes, it's obvious that RC should trump the PHB, just as it's obvious that CA's revision to Quicken Spell should trump the PHB. But because of precedence rules, they don't.

It's hardly the first time WotC has put out rules that they thought do one thing and actually do another. Throw it on top of the dysfunction pile and move on.

Troacctid

2015-12-15, 05:57 PM

oh, Am I only one thought that quicken spell uses a swift action and a free action?

Me. But to be fair, I never really researched it properly, so I couldn't give you citations to support it.

FWIW, I believe the Premium PHB has it as a swift action.

This is a case of document precedence. There's no "basically" here. It's a RAW, legalistic argument, and artful pedantry triumphs over common sense. Yes, it's obvious that RC should trump the PHB, just as it's obvious that CA's revision to Quicken Spell should trump the PHB. But because of precedence rules, they don't.

It's hardly the first time WotC has put out rules that they thought do one thing and actually do another. Throw it on top of the dysfunction pile and move on.

Specific always trumps general. That's the very foundation of the precedence rules. RC's statement that it trumps books that came before it is more specific than the general primary source rule.

That RC trumps preceding books was never under question. The reason people say the PHB still overrides it is because RC only gives itself the authority to trump books that were printed before it, and the Premium PHB was printed after it.

Agincourt

2015-12-15, 06:00 PM

This is a case of document precedence. There's no "basically" here. It's a RAW, legalistic argument, and artful pedantry triumphs over common sense. Yes, it's obvious that RC should trump the PHB, just as it's obvious that CA's revision to Quicken Spell should trump the PHB. But because of precedence rules, they don't.

I actually don't see how Complete Arcane revises Quicken Spell at all. As near as I can tell, in every way Quicken Spell works the same way whether or not you use Complete Arcane. Complete Arcane only changes the vocabulary, the vernacular if you will. Whether or not you play with Complete Arcane, you are limited to 1 spell per round that takes up the same slot, the "quickened/free action/swift action" spot.

Page 174 of the PHB (bold added):
A spell with a casting time of 1 free action (such as feather fall) doesn't count against your normal limit of one spell per round. However, you may cast such a spell only once per round.

So, whether or not you call them a "swift action" or a "free action" you only get one such spell per round, so I'm entirely confused by this debate. What rule is contingent on the vernacular you choose to employ here?

Flickerdart

2015-12-15, 06:04 PM

So, whether or not you call them a "swift action" or a "free action" you only get one such spell per round
Not so. There are plenty of abilities and spells in the game that are castable as a swift action. If Quicken Spell takes a free action, one could Quicken and then cast, for instance, a channeled pyroburst in the same round.

ComaVision

2015-12-15, 06:05 PM

So, whether or not you call them a "swift action" or a "free action" you only get one such spell per round, so I'm entirely confused by this debate. What rule is contingent on the vernacular you choose to employ here?

You only get one swift action a round, and there are lots of things that can be done with a swift action. If Quicken is a swift, then you can't do any of these other things that round. If it's a free action, then you can also use a swift.

Agincourt

2015-12-15, 06:23 PM

Not so. There are plenty of abilities and spells in the game that are castable as a swift action. If Quicken Spell takes a free action, one could Quicken and then cast, for instance, a channeled pyroburst in the same round.

You didn't even respond to my argument. In no way to you engage with the verbatim quote I put from the Player's Handbook. In order to cast both a Quickened Spell and a Swift Action Spell in the same round you have to ignore the rule in the PHB about only being about to cast one such spell once per round. You seem to be quibbling about the fact that they called it something different.

I think Channeled Pyroburst is a bad example because that is a spell that can be cast as a standard action.

I'm really struggling to see where you're coming from here. Are you arguing that Quickened Spells and Swift Actions can be used in the same round? Or are you arguing that Swift Actions don't exist because the writers made the mistake of trying to "overrule" the PHB?

You only get one swift action a round, and there are lots of things that can be done with a swift action. If Quicken is a swift, then you can't do any of these other things that round. If it's a free action, then you can also use a swift.
Swift actions are free actions. It just so happens that unlike some other free actions, you are strictly limited to one per round.

dascarletm

2015-12-15, 06:36 PM

Why would you think that? The SRD has no such statements about itself, certainly.

The Premium Player's Handbook is not before it, and thus takes precedence over RC. Anyone know if it includes the change?

Also, our favourite Curmudgeon's most delightful argument is that Rules Compendium doesn't have the authority to declare itself to have precedence, since it's not a primary source for anything.

I own a copy. I'll look it up when I get home.

PallentisLunam

2015-12-15, 06:43 PM

Flickerdart

2015-12-15, 07:21 PM

So, you know what the intent is. You know what the ruling would be in any sane rational game. But you're going to pedantically insist that RAW is what's important.
The thread comes out of the RAW Q&A. Every single argument posted in the OP pertains to RAW.

The RAI answer is not important. The RAI answer is not what this thread is for. Nobody disagrees about the RAI answer, so arguing based on RAI in this thread is supremely pointless. You can make another thread asking, do you think I should rule that Quicken Spell is a swift action? And I would be happy to post in that thread that yes, you should, because that's what the designers intended and that's how the game functions least stupid. But this thread is not that thread.

Debatra

2015-12-15, 07:41 PM

I'm really struggling to see where you're coming from here. Are you arguing that Quickened Spells and Swift Actions can be used in the same round? Or are you arguing that Swift Actions don't exist because the writers made the mistake of trying to "overrule" the PHB?

Neither. He's saying you could Quicken and use a Swift action in the same round if Quickened spells were free actions.

Swift actions are free actions.

No they aren't. The RAW is clear that they're different things.

TaiLiu

2015-12-15, 07:58 PM

My copy was part of a digital version of the PHB, but hopefully this Wizard's link (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20030718a) (inside a .zip file) should provide one with Lump Lump and the other atypical, pre-generated characters.
Ah, thank you.

...Why does Borchuk have the Lightning Reflexes feat?

Agincourt

2015-12-15, 08:00 PM

Neither. He's saying you could Quicken and use a Swift action in the same round if Quickened spells were free actions.

No they aren't. The RAW is clear that they're different things.

People keep saying that the Free Action spells in the PHB and Swift Actions are different, but they aren't explaining how. If the RAW is "clear" this should be easy to explain instead of just repeating the conclusion that they're different.

PHB 174:
A spell with a casting time of 1 free action (such as feather fall) doesn't count against your normal limit of one spell per round. However, you may cast such a spell only once per round.

Complete Arcane 137:
You can perform only a single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action at any time you would normally be allowed to take a free action.

No one has yet explained to me how the free action spells, which are limited to being used once per round are "clearly" different to swift action spells, which are limited to being used once per round.

zergling.exe

2015-12-15, 08:08 PM

People keep saying that the Free Action spells in the PHB and Swift Actions are different, but they aren't explaining how. If the RAW is "clear" this should be easy to explain instead of just repeating the conclusion that they're different.

PHB 174:
A spell with a casting time of 1 free action (such as feather fall) doesn't count against your normal limit of one spell per round. However, you may cast such a spell only once per round.

Complete Arcane 137:
You can perform only a single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action at any time you would normally be allowed to take a free action.

No one has yet explained to me how the free action spells, which are limited to being used once per round are "clearly" different to swift action spells, which are limited to being used once per round.

You can take any of the myriad other swift actions in the game in the same turn if quickened spells are free actions. That's it.

Troacctid

2015-12-15, 08:10 PM

Ah, thank you.

...Why does Borchuk have the Lightning Reflexes feat?

To improve his Reflex save, I imagine. It is the most commonly rolled save, after all, and, for a character with a d4 hit die, perhaps the most lethal one if you fail.

DarkSoul

2015-12-15, 08:12 PM

The book you hold in your hands is the definitive guide for how to play the 3.5 revision of the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Roleplaying Game. Years in the making, it gathers resources from a wide variety of supplements, rules errata, and rules clarifications to provide an authoritative guide for playing the D&D game. It updates and elucidates the rules, as well as expanding on them in ways that make it more fun and easier to play. When a preexisting core book or supplement differs with the rules herein, Rules Compendium is meant to take precedence. If you have a question on how to play D&D at the table, this book is meant to answer that question.Emphasis mine. Rules Compendium trumps PHB.

Therefore:

The addition of swift actions to the game means that casting a spell modified by the Quicken Spell metamagic feat is now a swift action instead of a free action that can be performed only during your turn.Quickened Spells are swift actions.

Point 1: Even if you don't think Complete Arcane should supersede the Player's Handbook, see the above.

Point 2: Multispell specifically states that you can cast one additional quickened spell per round. Nothing about quickened spells being swift actions changes this; if you use your swift action for the round, regardless of what you use it on, you can still cast one additional quickened spell for each time you take the multispell feat. No dysfunction there.

Point 3: Yes. Don't disqualify yourself for your prestige classes.

torrasque666

2015-12-15, 08:16 PM

Emphasis mine. Rules Compendium trumps PHB.
But the Premium Reprints!

DarkSoul

2015-12-15, 08:21 PM

But the Premium Reprints!...are reprints of preexisting books with errata incorporated into them (if that, I haven't actually looked through them to see if the errata is there).

Troacctid

2015-12-15, 08:26 PM

...are reprints of preexisting books with errata incorporated into them (if that, I haven't actually looked through them to see if the errata is there).

This is true. You can look in the inside cover and it'll even be like, "Original printing 2003, bitches." (I'm paraphrasing, of course.)

fishyfishyfishy

2015-12-15, 08:26 PM

Finally made it home and I was able to check my books. It seems that the reprint of the PHB did not include the language about Quicken Spell being a swift action after all. However, the reprint of the Spell Compendium does address this on page 4. If you agree that the most recent printing overrides the previous primary source then this solves it.

TaiLiu

2015-12-15, 08:28 PM

To improve his Reflex save, I imagine. It is the most commonly rolled save, after all, and, for a character with a d4 hit die, perhaps the most lethal one if you fail.
Sure, but it's only a plus two bonus.

fishyfishyfishy

2015-12-15, 08:31 PM

...are reprints of preexisting books with errata incorporated into them (if that, I haven't actually looked through them to see if the errata is there).

It is all there. I own all of the reprints. The only one that did not have the errata included is the Spell Compendium. Which is ironic since it was the last of them printed and it has the following statement on page 4:

Casting a quickened spell is a swift action (instead of a free action, as stated in the Quicken Spell feat description Player's Handbook).

EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it, it was the Magic Item Compendium that didn't include the errata. Spell Compendium does have the errata included. Either way the point still stands. Quickened spells are swift actions.

DarkSoul

2015-12-15, 08:34 PM

fishyfishyfishy

2015-12-15, 08:38 PM

The original printing says the same thing on the same page, FWIW.

Yes I know. I specified that it is in the reprint because of those who use the "reprints override previous books" argument.

KillianHawkeye

2015-12-15, 08:49 PM

Except now we will have an argument about whether the Spell Compendium is or is not the primary source for spells. :smallsigh::smallsigh::smallsigh:

Flickerdart

2015-12-15, 08:50 PM

If you agree that the most recent printing overrides the previous primary source than this solves it.
The most recent printing doesn't override the primary source. The argument against RC is as follows:

Even if RC is allowed to be definitive of anything, it only overrides all the books that came before.
The premium PHB did not come before the RC.
The premium PHB, as a PHB, is a definitive source.

The Spell Compendium isn't a definitive source for anything.

KillianHawkeye

2015-12-15, 08:51 PM

Except now we will have an argument about whether the Spell Compendium is or is not the primary source for spells. :smallsigh::smallsigh::smallsigh:

The most recent printing doesn't override the primary source. The argument against RC is as follows:

Even if RC is allowed to be definitive of anything, it only overrides all the books that came before.
The premium PHB did not come before the RC.
The premium PHB, as a PHB, is a definitive source.

The Spell Compendium isn't a definitive source for anything.

Bahahahaha! Can I call it, or what? :smallamused::smallsigh:

Flickerdart

2015-12-15, 08:55 PM

Bahahahaha! Can I call it, or what? :smallamused::smallsigh:
Except there is no argument about the definitiveness of the reprinted SpC.

fishyfishyfishy

2015-12-15, 08:55 PM

The Spell Compendium isn't a definitive source for anything.

Notice how I didn't make a statement of fact. I made a Conditional If Then statement. Take it how you want, I just wanted to make sure all the proper evidence was on the table. In my game it's a swift action. All this pedantic arguing is kind of silly.

KillianHawkeye

2015-12-15, 08:58 PM

Except there is no argument about the definitiveness of the reprinted SpC.

You JUST said it wasn't one. :smallconfused:

DarkSoul

2015-12-15, 08:59 PM

The most recent printing doesn't override the primary source. The argument against RC is as follows:

Even if RC is allowed to be definitive of anything, it only overrides all the books that came before.
The premium PHB did not come before the RC.
The premium PHB, as a PHB, is a definitive source.

The Spell Compendium isn't a definitive source for anything.You said it yourself, the premium PHB is still a PHB, and thus is superseded by the Rules Compendium according to the Rules Compendium. It's not a new edition of the rules, it's not even a "Premium Player's Handbook" on the cover. It doesn't have a new title, it's a Player's Handbook. Thus, the Rules Compendium overrules it. The content of the "premium" PHB didn't "come after" the Rules Compendium. To argue otherwise is simply arguing for argument's sake.

PallentisLunam

2015-12-15, 09:07 PM

If you read the errata text carefully you'll actually see that all of the primary source citations are given as examples. This implies that other books can be primary sources for other topics. Spells are never given a primary source therefore they either don't have one or what makes more sense is that the spell compendium is the primary source for spells. Or we can just dispense with all of this primary source foolishness entirely.

Flickerdart

2015-12-15, 09:07 PM

You said it yourself, the premium PHB is still a PHB, and thus is superseded by the Rules Compendium according to the Rules Compendium.
And the Rules Compendium is superseded by the new PHB because of the new PHB. Except the new PHB isn't pre-existing, so the RC doesn't trump it even if it could, which it can't.

It's not a new edition of the rules, it's not even a "Premium Player's Handbook" on the cover. It doesn't have a new title, it's a Player's Handbook.
Yes it is. The text inside is different.

To argue otherwise is simply arguing for argument's sake.
Rude and uncalled for.

DarkSoul

2015-12-15, 09:10 PM

And the Rules Compendium is superseded by the new PHB because of the new PHB. Except the new PHB isn't pre-existing, so the RC doesn't trump it even if it could, which it can't.

Yes it is. The text inside is different.

Rude and uncalled for.What text is different inside, other than published errata? If that's the extent of the differences, then errata is still a preexisting source and is still trumped by the Rules Compendium. Also, something being rude and uncalled for doesn't make it untrue.

torrasque666

2015-12-15, 09:17 PM

The new information in the "Premium" version of the Player's Handbook is the updated Errata'd rules. Which were published in 2006 (That's when the errata was released) while the Rules Compendium was published 2007. Unless something missed my gaze when I compared the Errata file to my copy of the "Premium" PHB, there is no new information between the 2006 errata and the 2012 reprint. Thus, the Rules Compendium would supersede in this case as there are no new rules being introduced in the 2012 copy.

The version of the Player's Handbook published in 2012 is not a new book. It is a reprint.

Troacctid

2015-12-15, 09:20 PM

Yes it is. The text inside is different.

Look at the book's copyright information and tell me what year it says it was originally printed.

Curmudgeon

2015-12-15, 09:54 PM

What text is different inside, other than published errata?
I don't own a copy of the new PH, but I did note one change that's not in the original PH or its errata:

When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can split your move action in that round in order to move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can't use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.

You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.
The bolded text is an addition: a useful clarification.

DarkSoul

2015-12-15, 10:12 PM

I don't own a copy of the new PH, but I did note one change that's not in the original PH or its errata:

The bolded text is an addition: a useful clarification.That's an interesting change. I see the difference from the original wording, but I wonder what was confusing about the original wording? I've never encountered anyone having trouble with it.

Curmudgeon

2015-12-15, 11:14 PM

That's an interesting change. I see the difference from the original wording, but I wonder what was confusing about the original wording? I've never encountered anyone having trouble with it.
Some people have claimed that you get to move as part of the attack action, and thus it doesn't cost a move action.

DarkSoul

2015-12-15, 11:54 PM

Some people have claimed that you get to move as part of the attack action, and thus it doesn't cost a move action.That's... creative, I guess?

BowStreetRunner

2015-12-16, 12:26 AM

I have several pages that I print out every time I DM that state clearly all of the rules sources that are used when I run a game, along with any house rules in use. On page 3 in the second to the last paragraph it clearly states "the rules printed in this handout supersede all rules printed in any other source and are subject to amendment and correction as needed to maintain the integrity of the game at any time without prior notice." Note that this is in writing! On PAPER! So it trumps every other rule mentioned in this entire thread! Because it says so right there on page 3! I don't think you can get any clearer than that.

By the way, it was last printed in 2014 so that is more current than pretty much anything WOTC has published for 3.5.

animewatcha

2015-12-16, 12:56 AM

Are we really arguing this stuffagain? Does the spell of Streamers need to be brought into it for further insight in this thread of "This is how I read the rules therefore it should be followed by all" thread?

Heliomance

2015-12-16, 06:27 AM

Question: What authority does the Errata have to declare itself to take precedence over the books?

Curmudgeon

2015-12-16, 07:42 AM

Question: What authority does the Errata have to declare itself to take precedence over the books?
The company web site (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata) lists them as "Official D&D Updates", so it's a public declaration by the D&D copyright holders.

By contrast, that there has never been (to my knowledge, and I've looked fairly thoroughly) any WotC declaration that Rules Compendium is, or was supposed to be, other than a collation of existing rules — except inside the book itself.

Troacctid

2015-12-16, 08:03 AM

By contrast, that there has never been (to my knowledge, and I've looked fairly thoroughly) any WotC declaration that Rules Compendium is, or was supposed to be, other than a collation of existing rules — except inside the book itself.

Couldn't have been that thorough--a search of the Wizards website for "Rules Compendium" brought up this (https://web.archive.org/web/20130510212628/http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/dramp/20100813) as the first result.

As we worked to clear up as many rules as possible, we also came across portions of the game that needed more than a new example or a fresh turn of phrase. Some pieces begged for revision, particularly subsystems that were overcomplicated or simply no fun to play. For example, we have tightened up the rules for flight, and those rules now appear with the other movement rules, not in a DM-only section. Similarly, we have tweaked how mounted combat works so that it is easier and more fun to include in an encounter.

And this is from the third result (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:B9qHVU_vWTYJ:archive.wizards.com/default.asp%3Fx%3Ddnd/4spot/20071005a&hl=en&gl=us&strip=0&vwsrc=0):

This book also attempts to clear up rules issues that have existed in 3E up until now. It’s not just a rules compilation that includes errata—developers, such as Stephen Radney-MacFarland, helped me refine rules, and I worked to make the language clearer in places. It should answer some vexing problems.

What can it do for the DM and the player? If you’ve prepared your adventure ahead of time, as a DM, Rules Compendium should be all you need at the table assuming you could borrow a player’s Players Handbook if you needed to look up a spell description. For anyone who plays the D&D game, Rules Compendium is the authoritative source for rules. This means if a rule in Rules Compendium contradicts a rule in an earlier source, Rules Compendium is correct.

So there you go--it's intended to contain clarifications and revisions, and to be the most current, most authoritative version of the game's rules.

Not that you need any declaration of this intent outside of the book itself, since RC is obviously the primary source for itself.

EldritchWeaver

2015-12-16, 08:14 AM

The company web site (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata) lists them as "Official D&D Updates", so it's a public declaration by the D&D copyright holders.

By contrast, that there has never been (to my knowledge, and I've looked fairly thoroughly) any WotC declaration that Rules Compendium is, or was supposed to be, other than a collation of existing rules — except inside the book itself.

So the fact that WotC didn't add the RC to the "Official D&D Updates" - which the RC arguably isn't because it compiles those pre-existing updates along with the other rules - makes it invalid for WotC to state inside the RC that the RC supersedes anything. They would have been required to publish such note in the "Official D&D Updates", because only that is the official place for these updates.

My counter for this is: Where did WotC state that "Official D&D Updates" is the only source for such statements? Why can't the RC supersede that "Official D&D Updates" channel as well?

Debatra

2015-12-16, 09:24 AM

simply arguing for argument's sake.

That's... creative, I guess?

Welcome to the Playground.

Duke of Urrel

2015-12-16, 03:40 PM

Welcome to the Playground.

I confess that I don't see the point of this whole discussion. Here are my reasons.

1. With the help of fellow Playgrounder Andezzar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?389369-Simple-RAW-Thread-for-3-5-Score-and-Nine&p=19056267#post19056267), I have learned that free actions, as actions, can be taken only during one's turn, not outside of one's turn, unless a specific rule states otherwise.

2. The text of the Quicken Spell feat on page 98 of the last edition of the Player's Handbook identifies a the act of casting a quickened spell as a free action, but also stipulates: "You may cast only one quickened spell per round."

3. Other rulebooks, notably the Rules Compendium, refer to this special kind of free action – one that you can take only once per round – as a swift action. But this is only a new term for an old concept, which was already fully developed in the Player's Handbook. The Rules Compendium changed absolutely nothing about this concept.

What are we arguing about?

4. Now, let's look at the text of the Feather Fall spell on page 229: "Casting the spell is a free action, like casting a quickened spell, and it counts toward the normal limit of one quickened spell per round. You may even cast this spell when it isn’t your turn."

5. Other rulebooks, notably the Rules Compendium, refer to this special kind of free action – one that you can take only once per round, but may take outside of your turn – as an immediate action. But once again, this is only a new term for an old concept that was already fully developed in the Player's Handbook. The Rules Compendium changed absolutely nothing about this concept.

So again, what are we arguing about here? What is the point?

Curmudgeon

2015-12-16, 03:47 PM

Couldn't have been that thorough--a search of the Wizards website for "Rules Compendium" brought up this (https://web.archive.org/web/20130510212628/http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/dramp/20100813) as the first result.
That's excellent research — if you were interested in the 4e Rules Compendium. :smallsigh:

As for the other result, I'm amazed that you found it. For me it displays black text on a fade-to-black background; it's entirely unreadable after "A good portion of the book is just plain entertaining to read, and ...".

Troacctid

2015-12-16, 03:59 PM

That's excellent research — if you were interested in the 4e Rules Compendium. :smallsigh:

As for the other result, I'm amazed that you found it. For me it displays black text on a fade-to-black background; it's entirely unreadable after "A good portion of the book is just plain entertaining to read, and ...".

Whoops. I guess the first is for 4e and the second is for 3.5.

The text is readable if you highlight it.

zergling.exe

2015-12-16, 04:05 PM

I confess that I don't see the point of this whole discussion. Here are my reasons.

1. With the help of fellow Playgrounder Andezzar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?389369-Simple-RAW-Thread-for-3-5-Score-and-Nine&p=19056267#post19056267), I have learned that free actions, as actions, can be taken only during one's turn, not outside of one's turn, unless a specific rule states otherwise.

2. The text of the Quicken Spell feat on page 98 of the last edition of the Player's Handbook identifies a the act of casting a quickened spell as a free action, but also stipulates: "You may cast only one quickened spell per round."

3. Other rulebooks, notably the Rules Compendium, refer to this special kind of free action – one that you can take only once per round – as a swift action. But this is only a new term for an old concept, which was already fully developed in the Player's Handbook. The Rules Compendium changed absolutely nothing about this concept.

What are we arguing about?

4. Now, let's look at the text of the Feather Fall spell on page 229: "Casting the spell is a free action, like casting a quickened spell, and it counts toward the normal limit of one quickened spell per round. You may even cast this spell when it isn’t your turn."

5. Other rulebooks, notably the Rules Compendium, refer to this special kind of free action – one that you can take only once per round, but may take outside of your turn – as an immediate action. But once again, this is only a new term for an old concept that was already fully developed in the Player's Handbook. The Rules Compendium changed absolutely nothing about this concept.

So again, what are we arguing about here? What is the point?

I answered this question earlier in the thread, but I'll answer it again.

The changes to making quickened spells swift-actions and feather fall an immediate action changes how they interact with other swift and immediate actions. You may only take either a swift or immediate action once per round, with immediate actions used not on your turn using up your swift or immediate for your next turn. Without changing the action type from the PHB, you could effectively take 3 of these actions a round (1 quickened, 1 swift or immediate, and feather fall).,

Curmudgeon

2015-12-16, 04:22 PM

The text is readable if you highlight it.
You have to have a reason to highlight it. I searched for "chang" ("change", "changed", "changing") on that page and found nothing. Hence my amazement.

Agincourt

2015-12-16, 04:52 PM

I answered this question earlier in the thread, but I'll answer it again.

The changes to making quickened spells swift-actions and feather fall an immediate action changes how they interact with other swift and immediate actions. You may only take either a swift or immediate action once per round, with immediate actions used not on your turn using up your swift or immediate for your next turn. Without changing the action type from the PHB, you could effectively take 3 of these actions a round (1 quickened, 1 swift or immediate, and feather fall).,

This answer suggests to me you don't really understand the argument of Duke of Urrel (and my argument also). Under the PHB rules, it was already impossible to cast a quickened spell and feather fall in the same round. The PHB refers to those types of spells as "free action spells." There is a hard limit of 1 free action spell per round. (PHB 174).

The introduction of swift actions did not change that hard limit of 1 free action spell per round. It just introduced new terminology. And then it said—in effect—quickened spells and feather fall and every other "free action spell" are going to be called "swift actions" now.

Nothing about the introduction of the term "swift action" changed the way "free action spells" operate. It just started using a new term.

It also introduced non-spell ways to use the once-a-round "free action." Through feats and magic objects, non-casters can also use swift actions, but don't let the name fool you. Swift actions are the same concept that always existed in 3.5. They just got a new name.

dascarletm

2015-12-16, 05:12 PM

You have to have a reason to highlight it. I searched for "chang" ("change", "changed", "changing") on that page and found nothing. Hence my amazement.

I think by highlight he means left-clicking with the mouse and running it along the text. It'll give a blue background and white text, no matter the source formatting. Selecting the text is another way of saying it.

zergling.exe

2015-12-16, 05:46 PM

This answer suggests to me you don't really understand the argument of Duke of Urrel (and my argument also). Under the PHB rules, it was already impossible to cast a quickened spell and feather fall in the same round. The PHB refers to those types of spells as "free action spells." There is a hard limit of 1 free action spell per round. (PHB 174).

The introduction of swift actions did not change that hard limit of 1 free action spell per round. It just introduced new terminology. And then it said—in effect—quickened spells and feather fall and every other "free action spell" are going to be called "swift actions" now.

Nothing about the introduction of the term "swift action" changed the way "free action spells" operate. It just started using a new term.

It also introduced non-spell ways to use the once-a-round "free action." Through feats and magic objects, non-casters can also use swift actions, but don't let the name fool you. Swift actions are the same concept that always existed in 3.5. They just got a new name.

Here is what you seem to be missing: any other swift or immediate action other than a quickened spell can be used in conjunction with a quickened spell. Using the PHB rules on quickened spells would allow you to cast a quickened spell and swift fly in the same round, since one is a "once per round free action" and the other is a "once per round swift (or immediate) action". That is why they updated (or at least tried to update) the rules for quickened spells.

PallentisLunam

2015-12-16, 05:50 PM

Zanos

2015-12-16, 05:58 PM

zergling.exe

2015-12-16, 06:01 PM

Or, stepping away from spells, you could both quicken a spell and activate a belt of battle in the same around. Or do one of the other many, many things you can do with a swift.

Yeah, I was blanking on specific things to cite that are swift actions.

Curmudgeon

2015-12-16, 06:37 PM

Is the publishing of a book somehow not a public declaration by the D&D copyright holders?
The subject is errata files, which have (until the Premium book line) never been in book form.

EldritchWeaver

2015-12-16, 06:42 PM

The subject is errata files, which have (until the Premium book line) never been in book form.

So previous reprints are complete duplicates of the first PHB, with no other corrections?

PallentisLunam

2015-12-16, 06:58 PM

The subject is errata files, which have (until the Premium book line) never been in book form.

That's irrelevant to my question. You accept the errata files, in whatever format you please, to be authoritative because they are declared by WotC to be so. How is a book published by WotC that specifically proclaims itself to be authoritative, less so.

Agincourt

2015-12-16, 07:07 PM

Here is what you seem to be missing: any other swift or immediate action other than a quickened spell can be used in conjunction with a quickened spell. Using the PHB rules on quickened spells would allow you to cast a quickened spell and swift fly in the same round, since one is a "once per round free action" and the other is a "once per round swift (or immediate) action". That is why they updated (or at least tried to update) the rules for quickened spells.

Or, stepping away from spells, you could both quicken a spell and activate a belt of battle in the same around. Or do one of the other many, many things you can do with a swift.

This isn't even engaging my argument. It's repeating your conclusion without explaining your argument.

I'm going to restate my argument very simply. Swift Actions are the exact same thing as free action spells. They just expanded the number of things that can be done as free action spell, and then changed the terminology for clarity.

Kindly explain your position as to why swift actions and free action spells should be considered two different things, hopefully with specific citations.

squiggit

2015-12-16, 07:12 PM

Kindly explain your position as to why swift actions and free action spells should be considered two different things, hopefully with specific citations.

Because if you can do something as a free action, you have not used up your swift action for that turn.

The fact that the concept of swift actions is a broadening and clarifying of ideas created in the PHB doesn't change the fact that swift actions now exist distinct from free actions, and doing something as a free action means you aren't doing it as a swift action.

Yes. you're right. The idea is an evolution of the idea from the PHB. Instead of defining them as free actions that are slightly distinct from normal free actions, they came up with a new name and now they're called swift actions. That's literally entirely irrelevant though, because now free actions and swift actions are distinct concepts.

Curmudgeon

2015-12-16, 07:15 PM

How is a book published by WotC that specifically proclaims itself to be authoritative, less so.
Because Wizards of the Coast has previously created this rule which says only an errata file can have authority to disagree with a primary source rule:
Errata Rule: Primary Sources

When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees.

Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.

Agincourt

2015-12-16, 07:19 PM

Because if you can do something as a free action, you have not used up your swift action for that turn.

The fact that the concept of swift actions is a broadening and clarifying of ideas created in the PHB doesn't change the fact that swift actions now exist distinct from free actions, and doing something as a free action means you aren't doing it as a swift action.

Yes. you're right. The idea is an evolution of the idea from the PHB. Instead of defining them as free actions that are slightly distinct from normal free actions, they came up with a new name and now they're called swift actions. That's literally entirely irrelevant though, because now free actions and swift actions are distinct concepts.

You're still not making specific citations.

Spells with casting time of 1 free action were already distinct concepts from free actions because they do not follow the rules of free actions. Casting a spell with a casting time of "1 free action" is limited to once-a-round (PHB 176) unlike true free actions, which are only limited by DM fiat. (PHB 139).

PallentisLunam

2015-12-16, 07:28 PM

So the errata can claim itself to be authoritative because it's published by WotC, but a book published by WotC that says it overrides all previous publications can't override the errata, even though the errata is a previous publication, because the errata says that it can't?

The errata no longer has the authority to declare that it cannot be overridden because WotC, via the Rules Compendium, says so.

zergling.exe

2015-12-16, 07:49 PM

You're still not making specific citations.

Spells with casting time of 1 free action were already distinct concepts from free actions because they do not follow the rules of free actions. Casting a spell with a casting time of "1 free action" is limited to once-a-round (PHB 176) unlike true free actions, which are only limited by DM fiat. (PHB 139).

A line telling us that two actions are equivalent:

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn.

This means that if nothing says otherwise, using one type of action (a move action, for example) does not prevent another (a standard). Full-round actions tell you that you cannot use either a move or a standard action in the same turn you use one. Swift actions don't say that using free actions (any kind of free action) uses up your swift action, so using a quickened spell (a special type of free action) would not use up your swift action (a distinct type of action).

Troacctid

2015-12-16, 07:56 PM

Because Wizards of the Coast has previously created this rule which says only an errata file can have authority to disagree with a primary source rule:

Specific trumps general. The rule that grants RC its authority is more specific than the primary source rule in the errata document. You can even argue it constitutes an exception to the primary source rule, which gives it an even higher precedence.

Furthermore, RC is a primary source for its own introductory chapter. It would be quite silly to claim otherwise.

Curmudgeon

2015-12-16, 09:24 PM

The company web site (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata) lists them as "Official D&D Updates", so it's a public declaration by the D&D copyright holders.

So the errata can claim itself to be authoritative because it's published by WotC ...

No, I've already covered this; see the quote above. It's not the claim inside the errata providing the authority, but the company declaration that these errata files are official updates of the D&D game. The Primary Sources Errata Rule provides additional specifics of how the game rules can be updated (as well as cases in which changes are disallowed).

PallentisLunam

2015-12-16, 09:32 PM

No, I've already covered this; see the quote above. It's not the claim inside the errata providing the authority, but the company declaration that these errata files are official updates of the D&D game. The Primary Sources Errata Rule provides additional specifics of how the game rules can be updated (as well as cases in which changes are disallowed).

Okay, my bad I misunderstood you.

So the errata's authority comes from WotC stating that the contents of the errata actually apply to the rules. But when WotC published the Rules Compendium they forgot to explicitly state elsewhere that the contents of the Rules Compendium actually apply to the rules and therefore they don't... I still don't understand how this argument is supposed to work.

Duke of Urrel

2015-12-16, 09:57 PM

Or, stepping away from spells, you could both quicken a spell and activate a belt of battle in the same around. Or do one of the other many, many things you can do with a swift.

I appreciate Agincourt's vote of confidence, but now that I've waded a little farther into this thread (something that I told myself I didn't want to do), I can see that Zanos and others have a point.

The failure of the rule writers to update the final 2012 printing of the Player's Handbook with the revised terms swift action and immediate action may not have been an oversight. The rule writers may actually have intended to create two classes of actions: on the one hand, all Quickened spells, which are special free actions; and on the other hand, all swift and immediate actions that are not spellcasting actions.

This would be advantageous primarily to gishes who specialized in maximizing their action economy. They would be able to take up to one full-round action, one swift or immediate action, and one Quickened spell in a single round.

And it's all possible. If you're the dungeon master and you believe that my player should be able to cast a Quickened spell as well as take a swift or immediate action in one round, I'll say okay and build a gish.

However, I don't think this interpretation of the rules is very plausible. I don't believe the rule writers waited until 2012 to reverse the revised rule, stated in the Rules Compendium, the Spell Compendium, and elsewhere, that redefined Quickened spells and the Feather Fall spell as either swift or immediate actions, respectively. I think the rule writers simply didn't bother to update the Player's Handbook in 2012. I think they assumed that we players and dungeon masters would read the core books first and the splat-books later, so that we would read the original rule and then the revised rule and then leave it at that. I don't believe the rule writers intended the Player's Handbook of 2012 to be a last-minute revision of their revision. If they had intended this, I think they would have added a sidebar somewhere defending their decision (as they have done elsewhere, notably in the Rules Compendium), or maybe they would have appended a new section like the "Polymorph Subschool" section on page 320.

Troacctid

2015-12-16, 10:10 PM

No, I've already covered this; see the quote above. It's not the claim inside the errata providing the authority, but the company declaration that these errata files are official updates of the D&D game. The Primary Sources Errata Rule provides additional specifics of how the game rules can be updated (as well as cases in which changes are disallowed).

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand--are you contending that Rules Compendium is not an official D&D source? Because if that's not your claim, I don't see why this is relevant.

Curmudgeon

2015-12-16, 10:57 PM

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand--are you contending that Rules Compendium is not an official D&D source?
No, it's an official source — except where it disagrees with a primary source rule. The only primary source rulebooks defined by WotC are Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual.

Troacctid

2015-12-16, 11:09 PM

No, it's an official source — except where it disagrees with a primary source rule. The only primary source rulebooks defined by WotC are Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual.

The errata document cites those as examples. It's very explicitly not a comprehensive list of primary sources. A given book is the primary source for its own unique content. Even if the core books were the only primary sourcebooks, RC's clause allowing it to supersede preexisting sources would be a specific exception to the general primary source rule, unless you're going to tell me now that book and topic precedence means specific doesn't trump general anymore.

P.F.

2015-12-16, 11:31 PM

My understanding is that, if one plays Core-Only, Quickened spells are free actions, swift actions don't exist, and no further discussion is required.

If one plays with rules from Complete Arcane which use swift actions, the "Swift and Immediate Actions" rules preempt the normal free action rules, and under those rules Quickened spells are swift actions.

The only sticking point is if one uses a supplement which includes swift actions, and one also explicitly excludes Complete Arcane, then one has also excluded the rule which makes Quickened spell work with the "Swift and Immediate Actions" rules.

Actually, I couldn't find the "Swift and Immediate Actions" rules section in any of the other (unindexed) Complete Something books (which don't include sidebars in the table of contents) so I can't even verify that the "Swift and Immediate Actions" boilerplate doesn't have Complete Arcane's caveat that Quickened spells are swift actions.

But to sum up, if you use swift actions from the Complete Arcane, then you are using the "Swift and Immediate Actions" rules from that book making Quickened spells swift actions; if you choose not to use these alternate rules, then swift actions don't exist and by extension neither do any of the supplemental rules which rely upon them.

Auron3991

2015-12-17, 12:05 AM

Except RAW clearly answers this on pages 6, 14, and 18 of the DMG and natural extension of the statement on page 64 of the PHB.

animewatcha

2015-12-17, 01:38 AM

ShurikVch

2015-12-17, 10:49 AM

So proponents of the quicken spell = free action will be more than happy to be on the receiving on end of character with arcane spellsurge active that is slinging ( through metamagic shenanigans, acfs, etc. ) a quickened ( thus free action ) persisted streamers spell, a normal casted ( thus made swift through arcane spellsurge ) persisted streamer spell, and a full-round ( and thus made standard through arcane spellsurge ) persisted streamers spell?Streamers?! :smallamused:
Oooh scary!..
B!@#h please!
One full attack will get rid of all those streamers.
Yes, you will lose one round.
But the enemy sorcerer already lost it, and 4 spell slots too!

So anytime you do anything, even breatheBreathing is not an action, thus wouldn't affected by the streamers; even the 5' step (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#take5FootStep) wouldn't endanger the target

you get hit 3 times3 times? :smallconfused:
Usual party size is 6, may be from 4 to 8
Assuming 14 level, 3 casts would produce 6 streamers.
If you spread them evenly per party, it will be 1 - 2 times at most; if you concentrate them on one character, then why not a 6 times?

with a spell that doesn't go away after the first hit because it isn't RAW thanks to WOTC forgetting to add that in there to balance the spell.As I pointed earlier, one full attack would eliminate all streamers - AC 20 is a joke at ECL 14, and magical weapon is common as wet water
But even if some streamers would actually hit somebody, there is no guaranty they don't miss - BAB +7 at ECL 14 is kinda low even for touch attacks

DarkSoul

2015-12-18, 12:44 AM

This isn't even engaging my argument. It's repeating your conclusion without explaining your argument.

I'm going to restate my argument very simply. Swift Actions are the exact same thing as free action spells. They just expanded the number of things that can be done as free action spell, and then changed the terminology for clarity.

Kindly explain your position as to why swift actions and free action spells should be considered two different things, hopefully with specific citations.
Your argument is correct. However for brevity's, and clarity's, sake they made free- and immediate action spells their own distinct categories, for two reasons: to avoid having to put something similar to this into every free-action spell description:

You can cast this spell with an instant
utterance, quickly enough to save yourself
if you unexpectedly fall. Casting the spell
is a free action, like casting a quickened
spell, and it counts toward the normal
limit of one quickened spell per round.
You may even cast this spell when it isn’t
your turn.

(that has the same line breaks in it as what's in the PHB... takes up a lot of page space doesn't it?

...and to avoid confusion when they printed more spells with a casting time of less than a standard action (but still only able to be cast once per round, unlike a true free action which can be normally be taken a reasonable number of times per round).

I appreciate Agincourt's vote of confidence, but now that I've waded a little farther into this thread (something that I told myself I didn't want to do), I can see that Zanos and others have a point.

The failure of the rule writers to update the final 2012 printing of the Player's Handbook with the revised terms swift action and immediate action may not have been an oversight. The rule writers may actually have intended to create two classes of actions: on the one hand, all Quickened spells, which are special free actions; and on the other hand, all swift and immediate actions that are not spellcasting actions.

This would be advantageous primarily to gishes who specialized in maximizing their action economy. They would be able to take up to one full-round action, one swift or immediate action, and one Quickened spell in a single round.

And it's all possible. If you're the dungeon master and you believe that my player should be able to cast a Quickened spell as well as take a swift or immediate action in one round, I'll say okay and build a gish.

However, I don't think this interpretation of the rules is very plausible. I don't believe the rule writers waited until 2012 to reverse the revised rule, stated in the Rules Compendium, the Spell Compendium, and elsewhere, that redefined Quickened spells and the Feather Fall spell as either swift or immediate actions, respectively. I think the rule writers simply didn't bother to update the Player's Handbook in 2012. I think they assumed that we players and dungeon masters would read the core books first and the splat-books later, so that we would read the original rule and then the revised rule and then leave it at that. I don't believe the rule writers intended the Player's Handbook of 2012 to be a last-minute revision of their revision. If they had intended this, I think they would have added a sidebar somewhere defending their decision (as they have done elsewhere, notably in the Rules Compendium), or maybe they would have appended a new section like the "Polymorph Subschool" section on page 320.
You're correct in that they didn't bother to update the action types in the 2012 reprints, because doing so would have necessitated including descriptions of those action types, which would completely change the layout of the books. Incorporating the errata and very minor clarifications to rules (such as Spring Attack according to Curmudgeon) is one thing, adding entire new sections to a reprint of a book is another.

My understanding is that, if one plays Core-Only, Quickened spells are free actions, swift actions don't exist, and no further discussion is required.

If one plays with rules from Complete Arcane which use swift actions, the "Swift and Immediate Actions" rules preempt the normal free action rules, and under those rules Quickened spells are swift actions.

The only sticking point is if one uses a supplement which includes swift actions, and one also explicitly excludes Complete Arcane, then one has also excluded the rule which makes Quickened spell work with the "Swift and Immediate Actions" rules.

Actually, I couldn't find the "Swift and Immediate Actions" rules section in any of the other (unindexed) Complete Something books (which don't include sidebars in the table of contents) so I can't even verify that the "Swift and Immediate Actions" boilerplate doesn't have Complete Arcane's caveat that Quickened spells are swift actions.

But to sum up, if you use swift actions from the Complete Arcane, then you are using the "Swift and Immediate Actions" rules from that book making Quickened spells swift actions; if you choose not to use these alternate rules, then swift actions don't exist and by extension neither do any of the supplemental rules which rely upon them.
If you would like to play core only, then yes, quickened spells and Feather Fall are fine like they are. With experienced players who have seen the rules for swift and immediate actions, you can see such a casting time on a spell and know how to translate that into the free action terminology of the PHB. For less experienced players, you should probably use the swift/immediate rules...because you're already using them anyway. It's easier on the brain to remember "Quicken = swift, feather fall = immediate" than to retcon every single swift and immediate action back to PHB rules.

Every Complete book has the explanations for swift and immediate Actions, either in sidebars or in the text itself, except Complete Warrior and Complete Divine, both of which were published (or at least shipped to the printers) prior to the new actions: Swift actions first appeared in the Miniatures Handbook and immediate actions arrived in the Expanded Psionics Handbook. If it's in a sidebar it's likely in the introduction to the book, and if it appears in the text, it's in the beginning paragraphs of the spells chapter.

Regarding the "primary source" hair-splitting: What's the primary source for the Abjurant Champion? How about the Scout? Not the Player's Handbook. Are their respective sourcebooks primary sources? By any reasonable definition of the term, yes. Wizards of the Coast, being the authors and publishers of every single book being "discussed", could print, reprint, revise, supersede, and overrule any of their books with any other of their books. Being the last rule book dealing with the core rules, and explicitly stating that it is the definitive, authoritative reference on the basic rules of the game, the Rules Compendium's wording (or any errata to that specific book) is the final say on any matter it directly addresses.

ShurikVch

2015-12-18, 09:40 AM

Your argument is correct. However for brevity's, and clarity's, sake they made free- and immediate action spells their own distinct categories, for two reasons: to avoid having to put something similar to this into every free-action spell description:

You can cast this spell with an instant
utterance, quickly enough to save yourself
if you unexpectedly fall. Casting the spell
is a free action, like casting a quickened
spell, and it counts toward the normal
limit of one quickened spell per round.
You may even cast this spell when it isn’t
your turn.

(that has the same line breaks in it as what's in the PHB... takes up a lot of page space doesn't it?

...and to avoid confusion when they printed more spells with a casting time of less than a standard action (but still only able to be cast once per round, unlike a true free action which can be normally be taken a reasonable number of times per round).Except by changing the Feather Fall's action to Immediate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#immediateActions), they made the spell essentially useless:
You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#flatFooted).And what is, exactly, "flat-footed"?
A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm).Thus, if you're still don't acted during a combat (or not in combat at all :smallamused:), you incapable to cast the Feather Fall - unless you are under the effect of Foresight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foresight.htm)/Dark Foresight, have Mark of Stars (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061106a&page=3) feat, or Natural Cunning SQ (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/minotaur.htm)

If you would like to play core only, then yes, quickened spells and Feather Fall are fine like they are. With experienced players who have seen the rules for swift and immediate actions, you can see such a casting time on a spell and know how to translate that into the free action terminology of the PHB. For less experienced players, you should probably use the swift/immediate rules...because you're already using them anyway. It's easier on the brain to remember "Quicken = swift, feather fall = immediate" than to retcon every single swift and immediate action back to PHB rules.One more time, what's about the Multispell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#multispell)? :smallconfused:

Agincourt

2015-12-18, 10:45 AM

Except by changing the Feather Fall's action to Immediate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#immediateActions), they made the spell essentially useless:And what is, exactly, "flat-footed"?Thus, if you're still don't acted during a combat (or not in combat at all :smallamused:), you incapable to cast the Feather Fall - unless you are under the effect of Foresight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foresight.htm)/Dark Foresight, have Mark of Stars (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061106a&page=3) feat, or Natural Cunning SQ (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/minotaur.htm)

Free actions have to be performed on your turn. (PHB 139). Speaking is an exception (PHB 144) and casting a spell is not. By your logic, casting Feather Fall can never be cast by someone who is flat-footed, regardless of whether it's a free action or an immediate action.

This is likely an instance of a specific rule trumping a general rule. Nerveskitter can be cast when you are flat-footed because the spell (or the spell errata) specifically says you can. Likewise, your DM should let you cast Feather Fall when you are flat-footed because the text strongly implies you can. "You can cast this spell with an instant utterance, quickly enough to save yourself if you unexpectedly fall." (PHB 229).

ShurikVch

2015-12-18, 10:57 AM

Free actions have to be performed on your turn. (PHB 139). Speaking is an exception (PHB 144) and casting a spell is not.Via helpful spoiler from the DarkSoul, you can see: Feather Fall is/was another exception

Agincourt

2015-12-18, 11:05 AM

Via helpful spoiler from the DarkSoul, you can see: Feather Fall is/was another exception

I don't follow. Feather Fall, whether a free action or an immediate action, can only be cast when you are flat-footed because the spell implies you can. It never explicitly says so. If your DM lets you cast it flat-footed, they should do so regardless of whether it is a free action or an immediate action.

DarkSoul

2015-12-18, 11:29 AM

One more time, what's about the Multispell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#multispell)? :smallconfused:Page 3, first post (#61).

ShurikVch

2015-12-18, 11:29 AM

I don't follow. Feather Fall, whether a free action or an immediate action, can only be cast when you are flat-footed because the spell implies you can. It never explicitly says so. If your DM lets you cast it flat-footed, they should do so regardless of whether it is a free action or an immediate action.In red underline:
The affected creatures or objects fall slowly, though faster than feathers typically do. Feather fall instantly changes the rate at which the targets fall to a mere 60 feet per round (equivalent to the end of a fall from a few feet), and the subjects take no damage upon landing while the spell is in effect. However, when the spell duration expires, a normal rate of falling resumes.
The spell affects one or more Medium or smaller creatures (including gear and carried objects up to each creature’s maximum load) or objects, or the equivalent in larger creatures: A Large creature or object counts as two Medium creatures or objects, a Huge creature or object counts as two Large creatures or objects, and so forth.
You can cast this spell with an instant utterance, quickly enough to save yourself if you unexpectedly fall. Casting the spell is a free action, like casting a quickened spell, and it counts toward the normal limit of one quickened spell per round. You may even cast this spell when it isn’t your turn.
This spell has no special effect on ranged weapons unless they are falling quite a distance. If the spell is cast on a falling item, such as a boulder dropped from the top of a castle wall, the object does half normal damage based on its weight, with no bonus for the height of the drop. (See the Dungeon Master’s Guide for information on falling objects.)
Feather fall works only upon free-falling objects. It does not affect a sword blow or a charging or flying creature.

ZamielVanWeber

2015-12-18, 11:32 AM

Great. That doesn't mean you can cast it when you are flat footed. Free actions cannot be taken when you are flat footed (except for talking). Feather Fall does not exempt itself from this rule.

Agincourt

2015-12-18, 11:37 AM

In red underline:
I suspect there is a language barrier here because you are explaining your position poorly.

You underlined a line. I read and understood the line before your post. What you are not explaining is your logic. What prevents someone from casting Feather Fall flat-footed if you call it an immediate action?

Whatever answer you give, the same logic will apply to Feather Fall if you call it a free action.

DarkSoul

2015-12-18, 11:50 AM

Why not house rule Feather Fall like this, then? My changes are in green.

Feather Fall

Transmutation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#transmutation)

Level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#level):
Brd 1 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/bardSpells.htm#firstLevelBardSpells), Sor/Wiz 1 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#firstLevelSorcererWizardS pells)

Components (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#components):
V

Casting Time (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#castingTime):
-

Range (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#range):
Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)

Targets (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#targetorTargets):
One Medium or smaller freefalling object or creature/level, no two of which may be more than 20 ft. apart

Duration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#duration):
Until landing or 1 round/level

Saving Throw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow):
Will negates (harmless) or Will negates (object)

Spell Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#spellResistance):
Yes (object)

The affected creatures or objects fall slowly. Feather fall instantly changes the rate at which the targets fall to a mere 60 feet per round (equivalent to the end of a fall from a few feet), and the subjects take no damage upon landing while the spell is in effect. However, when the spell duration expires, a normal rate of falling resumes.

The spell affects one or more Medium or smaller creatures (including gear and carried objects up to each creature’s maximum load) or objects, or the equivalent in larger creatures: A Large creature or object counts as two Medium creatures or objects, a Huge creature or object counts as two Large creatures or objects, and so forth.
You can cast this spell with an instant utterance, quickly enough to save yourself if you unexpectedly fall. Casting the spell is not an action, allowing you to cast this spell even when it isn’t your turn or when flat footed. This spell counts as a quickened spell.

This spell has no special effect on ranged weapons unless they are falling quite a distance. If the spell is cast on a falling item the object does half normal damage based on its weight, with no bonus for the height of the drop.

Feather fall works only upon free-falling objects. It does not affect a sword blow or a charging or flying creature.

If someone feels the need to house rule the spell back to a free action, they might as well take it one step further and reconcile it with both sides of the argument.

Agincourt: The rules for Immediate Actions prevent the use of Feather Fall when flat-footed. Regarding free actions when flat-footed, you're right, you can't take them before you've acted unless you're speaking.

Agincourt

2015-12-18, 12:21 PM

Agincourt: The rules for Immediate actions prevent you from casting Feather Fall when flat-footed, because they say you can't, and Feather Fall doesn't actually contradict that. Free actions have no such restrictions on their use while flat footed, regardless of whether you use immediate and swift actions or not.

Actually, flat-footed only affects your AC and prevents you from making attacks of opportunity. It doesn't prevent you from taking free actions. Being surprised doesn't even prevent free actions; it limits you to a move or standard action, but specifically says that the only limit on free actions while surprised is DM's discretion. You can actually cast a free-action feather fall while flat-footed or surprised, but a strict reading of the surprise rules prevents an immediate action feather fall while you're surprised.

That is simply wrong. You cannot use free actions when it is not your turn. Speaking is the only listed exception. From PHB 144:

Speak
In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn. Some DMs may rule that a character can only speak on his turn, or that a character can’t speak while flat-footed (and thus can’t warn allies of a surprise threat until he has a chance to act). Speaking more than few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action; to communicate more information than that, your DM may require that you take a move action or even a fullround action."

Otherwise, you can only use a free action on your turn because that is the only time you are allowed to use actions. ("When a character’s turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round’s worth of actions.") (PHB 138).

ShurikVch

2015-12-18, 12:24 PM

Free actions cannot be taken when you are flat footed (except for talking).O RLY?
Prove it! :smalltongue:
Meantime I will disprove it:
Flat-Footed
A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.Where it say anything about Free Actions? :smallconfused:

What prevents someone from casting Feather Fall flat-footed if you call it an immediate action?Flat-Footed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#flatFooted) condition prevent use of Immediate Actions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#immediateActions)

Page 3, first post (#61).OK, let's see...
Point 2: Multispell specifically states that you can cast one additional quickened spell per round. Nothing about quickened spells being swift actions changes this; if you use your swift action for the round, regardless of what you use it on, you can still cast one additional quickened spell for each time you take the multispell feat. No dysfunction there.And which action you will use to cast second(/third/fourth/...) Quicken Spell? :smallconfused:
Once more time, what kind of action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm) you will use?!
However, you can perform only a single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take.Where you will take another Swift action (outside of very specific examples such as Synad and RKV, both of which also appeared years later than Complete Arcane)?

Point 3: Yes. Don't disqualify yourself for your prestige classes.My point 3 refer to the very bad case of Lazy Writer Syndrome
It actually was a RAW in 3.0
But later, with advent of numerous PrCs which disqualified itself at some point (such as Dragon Disciple, Ur-Priest, and even Survivor) forced WotC to revise that rule
So, it wasn't a thing even before the 3.5
But authors of Complete Arcane used lazy copypasta from old DMG and "necromancied" old dysphunction

EDIT:
That is simply wrong. You cannot use free actions when it is not your turn. Speaking is the only listed exception. From PHB 144:

Otherwise, you can only use a free action on your turn because that is the only time you are allowed to use actions. ("When a character’s turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round’s worth of actions.") (PHB 138).Reply #130, red text :smallsigh:

ZamielVanWeber

2015-12-18, 12:27 PM

Actually, flat-footed only affects your AC and prevents you from making attacks of opportunity. It doesn't prevent you from taking free actions. Being surprised doesn't even prevent free actions; it limits you to a move or standard action, but specifically says that the only limit on free actions while surprised is DM's discretion. You can actually cast a free-action feather fall while flat-footed or surprised, but a strict reading of the surprise rules prevents an immediate action feather fall while you're surprised.

On the contrary:
Free Action
Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free.

What actions can you take normally while flat-footed?

Agincourt

2015-12-18, 12:29 PM

Flat-Footed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#flatFooted) condition prevent use of Immediate Actions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#immediateActions)

Flat-footed condition prevents taking free actions. You have no initiative sequence so you cannot take any actions.

("When a character’s turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round’s worth of actions.") (PHB 138).

ShurikVch

2015-12-18, 12:30 PM

What actions can you take normally while flat-footed?All the same as when you are not flat-footed except AoO

Agincourt

2015-12-18, 12:33 PM

All the same as when you are not flat-footed except AoO

Source please? I'm beginning to think you are not even reading my citations.

ZamielVanWeber

2015-12-18, 12:33 PM

All the same as when you are not flat-footed except AoO

So you are not using a swift, immediate, standard (since your initiative has not come up), move (as before), or full (as before). How are you taking one of these actions normally while flat-footed? It says "You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally." So you need to be using one of the listed actions normally while flat-footed before you can use a free.

ShurikVch

2015-12-18, 12:37 PM

So you are not using a swift, immediate, standard (since your initiative has not come up), move (as before), or full (as before).Why the heck "not"? :smallconfused:

Source please?Player's Handbook 3.5

Agincourt

2015-12-18, 12:43 PM

Why the heck "not"? :smallconfused:
Player's Handbook 3.5

I gave the specific citation saying you can only take actions on your initiative count. (Player's Handbook page 138). Since you did not give a meaningful citation, I must assume you cannot give one.

ZamielVanWeber

2015-12-18, 12:43 PM

Why the heck "not"?

In order to use a free action, you must be taking any other action normally. What action (that is not free) are you taking while you are flat-footed so that you can take a free action?

ShurikVch

2015-12-18, 01:06 PM

I gave the specific citation saying you can only take actions on your initiative count. (Player's Handbook page 138). Since you did not give a meaningful citation, I must assume you cannot give one.OK, if you insisting...
Player's Handbook 3.5, page 229, Feather Fall:
You may even cast this spell when it isn’t your turn.

In order to use a free action, you must be taking any other action normally.Proof? :smallconfused:

Why not house rule Feather FallWe speaking about the RAW, not about housrules
Do you familiar with term "Oberoni Fallacy" (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Oberoni_Fallacy)?

ZamielVanWeber

2015-12-18, 01:11 PM

Proof? :smallconfused:

The text I already quoted... in this thread... on this page. Here is the rule again:
Free Action
Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free.

and there is where I originally said it: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20208431&postcount=136

ShurikVch

2015-12-18, 01:24 PM

The text I already quoted... in this thread... on this page. Here is the rule again:

and there is where I originally said it: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20208431&postcount=136It's not original text; correct description is:
FREE ACTIONS
Free actions don’t take any time at all, though your DM may limit the number of free actions you can perform in a turn. Free actions rarely incur attacks of opportunity. Some common free actions are described below.

Agincourt

2015-12-18, 02:03 PM

It's not original text; correct description is:

You're looking in the wrong spot in the Player's Handbook. Look at page 139:

Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort, and over the span of the round, their impact is so minor that they are considered free. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, the DM puts reasonable limits on what you can really do for free. For instance, calling out to your friends for help, dropping an object, and ceasing to concentrate on a spell are all free actions. (Bold added.)

Anlashok

2015-12-18, 02:22 PM

That says can, not must. Zamiel said "must". Seems like a pretty big difference.

ShurikVch

2015-12-18, 02:27 PM

You're looking in the wrong spot in the Player's Handbook. Look at page 139:

(Bold added.)Keyword is "Normally"
It says you able to take Free Action even while performing other action
It, however, doesn't say you are unable to take Free Action unless you also take some other action; otherwise, which action you take while talking, (or falling, or dropping your weapon)?
Honestly, the very idea is just silly!
"You can talking while you walking, thus you unable to walking unless you are talking"
Are you even serious?

ZamielVanWeber

2015-12-18, 03:02 PM

Keyword is "Normally"
It says you able to take Free Action even while performing other action
It, however, doesn't say you are unable to take Free Action unless you also take some other action; otherwise, which action you take while talking, (or falling, or dropping your weapon)?
Honestly, the very idea is just silly!
"You can talking while you walking, thus you unable to walking unless you are talking"
Are you even serious?

A few points here:
Last but first this entire thread is about the RAW of quickened actions when the RAI is clear (it is a swift) and you are complaining that RAW is silly? Color me confused.
Next DnD is not a system of what rules don't say, but what rules do say. By your logic a concentration check can give me a fly speed because it doesn't not say that it cannot give me a fly speed.
Lastly you have appear misread or misinterpreted the statement itself. The normally refers to the other action you are taking other than the free action.

ShurikVch

2015-12-18, 03:56 PM

By default, you able to take any and all actions, unless some rule prevent you to take it
Otherwise, whereis the rule which allow you, for example, to breath?

Lastly you have appear misread or misinterpreted the statement itself. The normally refers to the other action you are taking other than the free action.Please, claify the last point

DarkSoul

2015-12-18, 03:59 PM

Agincourt and Zamiel: You're right about free actions not being taken when flat-footed. I didn't read thoroughly enough and stand corrected.

You can perform one or more free actions during your turn.

Emphasis mine. If you're flat-footed, it's definitely not your turn, therefore no free actions until you've acted at least once, barring speaking which is a specific exception. This takes care of ShurikVch's "O RLY?" challenge nicely as well.

You can't use an immediate action when you're flat-footed.

No immediate-action Feather Fall when flat-footed. If you're bull-rushed off a cliff when you're flat-footed, pray you survive the impact. Reinforces the case for moving to "not an action, limit 1 casting per round".

And which action you will use to cast second(/third/fourth/...) Quicken Spell? :smallconfused:
Once more time, what kind of action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm) you will use?!

The additional swift action granted by Multispell explicitly giving you the ability to cast more than one quickened spell per round. It doesn't have to say "You get an additional swift action every round that can only be used to cast a quickened spell." to work.

You may cast one additional quickened (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickenSpell) spell in a round.

Quickened spells could be standard actions and Multispell would grant you the ability to cast another one. It doesn't need a bunch of legalese about granting additional actions to do so.

In order to use a free action, you must be taking any other action normally.

I disagree with this portion of your post. Put in the "while flat-footed" context it makes sense, but since this seems to be the contentious part, perhaps it would be better said as "In order to use a free action, you must be allowed to take any other action normally"? That, I would agree with, because I can stand still on my turn and not take a move or standard action, but still take free actions; drop a held item, drop prone, speak something short, etc.

We speaking about the RAW, not about housrules
Do you familiar with term "Oberoni Fallacy" (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Oberoni_Fallacy)?

Speaking strictly about RAW, Quickened spells are swift actions and Feather Fall has an immediate action cast time. Anything else is a house rule. I never claimed there wasn't a problem with these rules because you could just houserule the problems away. The root of the problem is people not wanting to accept the fact that Quickened spells and Feather Fall are no longer free actions:

Quickened spells are swift actions: Usable only on your turn, and only once per turn (Unless, like most things in the game, a specific exception is made. In this case, that specific exception is Multispell).
Feather Fall is an immediate action: Usable any time, even when it isn't your turn as long as you aren't flat-footed (your turn hasn't come up on the initiative count yet). If you use it during your turn it counts as your swift action. If you use it when it isn't your turn it counts as your next turn's swift action, and therefore you cannot take a swift action on your next turn (Again, unless a specific exception is made, that being Multispell).

Those are the rules. I'm not looking for a way to houserule them, so I'm not sure why you're talking about the Oberoni Fallacy. My suggested change to Feather Fall was to appease the "It should still be a free action" argument. Though even as a free action Feather Fall still can't be cast while flat-footed, unless it's intended to fall under the free action "speak".

DarkSoul

2015-12-18, 04:07 PM

If your DM lets you cast it (feather fall) flat-footed, they should do so regardless of whether it is a free action or an immediate action.I agree completely with this.

Duke of Urrel

2015-12-18, 04:23 PM

I have two things to say.

Firstly, if you're concerned that you can't cast the Feather Fall spell while you're surprised – for example, if you accidentally step into a pit before you have acted on your initiative count – then the easiest solution is to buy yourself a Ring of Feather Falling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#featherFalling).

This ring is crafted with a feather pattern all around its edge. It acts exactly like a feather fall spell, activated immediately if the wearer falls more than 5 feet.

Faint transmutation; CL 1st; Forge Ring, feather fall; Price 2,200 gp.

The bold text is mine. Actually, a Ring of Feather Falling doesn't work "exactly like a feather fall spell." It works more like the Feather Fall spell with the Contingency spell added. It's quite a good deal, and perfectly legal according to the RAW.

Secondly, I believe if we're talking about surprise, we are moving on to a new topic. There isn't any action that you can take while you're surprised: not a swift action, not an immediate action, and not a free action – unless a specific rule (such as the Combat Reflexes feat) states otherwise.

Instead, I believe we're talking about what we should or should not consider to be a reaction, that is, a nonaction that you can take in response to something that happens to you, such as a saving throw or a Spot or Listen check.

Debatra

2015-12-18, 04:39 PM

Instead, I believe we're talking about what we should or should not consider to be a reaction, that is, a nonaction that you can take in response to something that happens to you, such as a saving throw or a Spot or Listen check.

Actually, I think we've drifted a little off-topic here. Isn't this thread supposed to be about Quicken Spell?

Taelas

2015-12-18, 04:50 PM

Emphasis mine. If you're flat-footed, it's definitely not your turn, therefore no free actions until you've acted at least once, barring speaking which is a specific exception. This takes care of ShurikVch's "O RLY?" challenge nicely as well.

The problem is, prior to immediate actions, you could cast feather fall while flat-footed, as it explicitly allowed you to cast it when it was not your turn. The limitation on casting while flat-footed only appeared when immediate actions were introduced, since under normal circumstances, the issue wouldn't have come up--outside the specific case of feather fall. (You can't cast when it's not your turn, and if you are flat-footed, it is not your turn.)

With feather fall changed to an immediate action, you suddenly can't cast it while flat-footed, which you could before.

ShurikVch

2015-12-19, 08:28 AM

Emphasis mine. If you're flat-footed, it's definitely not your turn, therefore no free actions until you've acted at least once, barring speaking which is a specific exception. This takes care of ShurikVch's "O RLY?" challenge nicely as well.ZamielVanWeber said being Flat-Footed somehow preventing you from taking Free Actions; I called a bluff
There are some conditions which prevent taking various actions:
Confused (actions are determined by rolling d%)
Cowering (no actions)
Dazed (no actions)
Dead (no actions)
Disabled (single Move Action or Standard Action)
Dying (no actions)
Fascinated (no actions other than to pay attention to the fascinating effect)
Grappling (see Grapple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple))
Helpless (see Paralyzed)
Nauseated (can't do anything requiring attention; single Move Action + Free Actions)
Panicked (flee at top speed; if cornered, - cowers)
Paralyzed (purely mental actions)
Petrified (see Unconscious)
Staggered (single Move Action or Standard Action)
Stunned (no actions)
Unconscious (see Helpless)Being Flat-Footed is not so restricting: the only thing you unable to do is AoO
Also:
1) You may be flatfooted even during your turn, if you making Balance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/balance.htm) check
2) Even outside of your turn, you still able to take some Free Actions - such as talking, or casting Feather Fall spell

The additional swift action granted by Multispell explicitly giving you the ability to cast more than one quickened spell per round.Quote, please?
It doesn't have to say "You get an additional swift action every round that can only be used to cast a quickened spell." to work.

Quickened spells could be standard actions and Multispell would grant you the ability to cast another one. It doesn't need a bunch of legalese about granting additional actions to do so.Are you sure?

I'm not looking for a way to houserule them, so I'm not sure why you're talking about the Oberoni Fallacy.It was a warning call: use of houserules in RAW discussion may lead to it...

Though even as a free action Feather Fall still can't be cast while flat-footed, unless it's intended to fall under the free action "speak".BOLD.
RED.
UNDERLINED.
TEXT.

The affected creatures or objects fall slowly, though faster than feathers typically do. Feather fall instantly changes the rate at which the targets fall to a mere 60 feet per round (equivalent to the end of a fall from a few feet), and the subjects take no damage upon landing while the spell is in effect. However, when the spell duration expires, a normal rate of falling resumes.
The spell affects one or more Medium or smaller creatures (including gear and carried objects up to each creature’s maximum load) or objects, or the equivalent in larger creatures: A Large creature or object counts as two Medium creatures or objects, a Huge creature or object counts as two Large creatures or objects, and so forth.
You can cast this spell with an instant utterance, quickly enough to save yourself if you unexpectedly fall. Casting the spell is a free action, like casting a quickened spell, and it counts toward the normal limit of one quickened spell per round. You may even cast this spell when it isn’t your turn.
This spell has no special effect on ranged weapons unless they are falling quite a distance. If the spell is cast on a falling item, such as a boulder dropped from the top of a castle wall, the object does half normal damage based on its weight, with no bonus for the height of the drop. (See the Dungeon Master’s Guide for information on falling objects.)
Feather fall works only upon free-falling objects. It does not affect a sword blow or a charging or flying creature.

Zombimode

2015-12-19, 08:54 AM

BOLD.
RED.
UNDERLINED.
TEXT.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but the point seems to be that free action Feather Fall has the same limitations as immediate action Feather Fall - in that neither free actions nor immediate actions can be (normally) use while being flat-footed. The text you quoted, especially the line you marked, does not contradict this point. Being flat-footed is not the same or even related to to being your turn. You can be flat-footed while its your turn, and it can be not your turn without you being flat-footed.

Do I miss something here?

ShurikVch

2015-12-19, 09:32 AM

Maybe I'm missing something here, but the point seems to be that free action Feather Fall has the same limitations as immediate action Feather Fall - in that neither free actions nor immediate actions can be (normally) use while being flat-footed. The text you quoted, especially the line you marked, does not contradict this point. Being flat-footed is not the same or even related to to being your turn. You can be flat-footed while its your turn, and it can be not your turn without you being flat-footed.

Do I miss something here?Explanation:
They say you can't take Free Actions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#freeActions) when you are Flat-Footed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#flatFooted).
My point: nothing in the description of the Flat-Footed condition prevent you from taking Free Actions

They say you being Flat-Footed mean it's not your turn, thus you can't take Free Actions (except speaking).
My points:
1) Sure as heck, you may still be Flat-Footed even during your turn;
2) The very spell description allow to cast it outside of your turn.

DarkSoul

2015-12-19, 01:30 PM

ZamielVanWeber said being Flat-Footed somehow preventing you from taking Free Actions; I called a bluff
There are some conditions which prevent taking various actions:
Confused (actions are determined by rolling d%)
Cowering (no actions)
Dazed (no actions)
Dead (no actions)
Disabled (single Move Action or Standard Action)
Dying (no actions)
Fascinated (no actions other than to pay attention to the fascinating effect)
Grappling (see Grapple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple))
Helpless (see Paralyzed)
Nauseated (can't do anything requiring attention; single Move Action + Free Actions)
Panicked (flee at top speed; if cornered, - cowers)
Paralyzed (purely mental actions)
Petrified (see Unconscious)
Staggered (single Move Action or Standard Action)
Stunned (no actions)
Unconscious (see Helpless)Being Flat-Footed is not so restricting: the only thing you unable to do is AoO
Also:
1) You may be flatfooted even during your turn, if you making Balance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/balance.htm) check
2) Even outside of your turn, you still able to take some Free Actions - such as talking, or casting Feather Fall spell
Quote, please?Are you sure?

It was a warning call: use of houserules in RAW discussion may lead to it...
BOLD.
RED.
UNDERLINED.
TEXT.

Your bold red underlined text only applies if the spell is a free action, because they needed to make sure you knew you could use this particular free action when it's not your turn. The immediate action version of the spell that appears in the SRD says:

Casting the spell is a immediate action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#immediateActions), allowing you to cast this spell even when it isn’t your turn.

Because it is an immediate action, you are allowed to cast it when it's not your turn. Unless you are flat-footed, because the rules for immediate actions say so.

You're right. You can be flat-footed even on your own turn, and being flat-footed doesn't prevent you from speaking (which appears to be the only free action you can normally take outside your turn). Being surprised does prevent free actions though, because it specifically says anyone not taking an action in the surprise round can't take any actions at all, and that they're also flat-footed. So, if you're flat-footed, you can't cast immediate action feather fall, but you could cast it if it were still a free action (which it isn't unless you're playing strictly core only). If you're surprised, you can't even cast free action feather fall, because you can't take any actions at all, not even free actions (including speaking).

As for "Quote, please": Go re-read Multispell.

"Are you sure?": Yes, I am. Multispell lets you cast one additional quickened spell per round. Black and white, no gray area there. A clear, specific exception to the "one quickened spell per round" rule. If you can cast one quickened spell in a round, Multispell says you can cast two. Obviously anything preventing you from taking swift actions at all prevents any quickened spells and therefore prevents Multispell from working.

Again, quickened spells could be standard actions and you'd still get to cast another one because the feat says so.

ZamielVanWeber

2015-12-19, 01:40 PM

ZamielVanWeber said being Flat-Footed somehow preventing you from taking Free Actions; I called a bluff

1) I explained exactly how it prevents you from taking actions. Multiple times.

2) Do you have any proof that I lied? If not then please do not accuse me of acting dishonestly.

Taelas

2015-12-19, 07:55 PM

1) I explained exactly how it prevents you from taking actions. Multiple times.

flat-footed
Especially vulnerable to attacks at the beginning of a battle. Characters are flat-footed until their first turns in the initiative cycle. A flat-footed creature loses its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.

I see absolutely nothing that "prevents you from taking actions". You can't make attacks of opportunity. That's it.

Before Immediate actions were introduced, casting feather fall was a free action, one which could be taken when it was not your turn. Being flat-footed does not prevent you from taking free actions. The only actions the condition prevents are attacks of opportunity.

ZamielVanWeber

2015-12-19, 08:08 PM

Before Immediate actions were introduced, casting feather fall was a free action, one which could be taken when it was not your turn. Being flat-footed does not prevent you from taking free actions. The only actions the condition prevents are attacks of opportunity.

And as I pointed out multiple times free actions must be taken alongside other actions when they are taken normally. No one has shown me any actions they can take normally while flat footed.

Duke of Urrel

2015-12-19, 09:13 PM

Explanation:
They say you can't take Free Actions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#freeActions) when you are Flat-Footed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#flatFooted).
My point: nothing in the description of the Flat-Footed condition prevent you from taking Free Actions

They say you being Flat-Footed mean it's not your turn, thus you can't take Free Actions (except speaking).
My points:
1) Sure as heck, you may still be Flat-Footed even during your turn;
2) The very spell description allow to cast it outside of your turn.

I see absolutely nothing that "prevents you from taking actions". You can't make attacks of opportunity. That's it.

Before Immediate actions were introduced, casting feather fall was a free action, one which could be taken when it was not your turn. Being flat-footed does not prevent you from taking free actions. The only actions the condition prevents are attacks of opportunity.

The prevailing interpretation of the RAW is that you cannot take actions of any kind while you are surprised, with the exception of special cases, such as attacks of opportunity if you have the Combat Reflexes feat.

I say while you are surprised, because being surprised is a condition that entails more than mere flat-footedness. I can understand your confusion about this, because for a long time, I was confused about this, too. The term "flat-footed" is used to denote several different conditions, of which being surprised is the most restrictive.

Immediately below, I have copied the SRD rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm#surprise) that you need to know. In particular, pay attention to the bold-faced italic text below, indicating emphasis that I have added.

The Surprise Round
If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. […] If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.

Unaware Combatants
Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

From the foregoing text, it follows that being surprised is actually a more restrictive condition than being flat-footed.

Being flat-footed and being surprised are two different things. You may be flat-footed without being surprised. For example, if you have fewer than five ranks of Balance skill, then while you stand on a narrow surface, you are always flat-footed, but not necessarily surprised.

By itself (that is, in the absence of surprise), flat-footedness entails two drawbacks, which I call attack-impairment and dodge-impairment.

1. Being attack-impaired means being unable to make attacks of opportunity.

2. Being dodge-impaired means being denied the Dexterity bonus that you add to your Armor Class, if any, as well as being denied any Dodge bonus, if any (because the former condition necessarily entails the latter). While you are flat-footed, you still add your Dexterity bonus to Reflex saves, as usual.

Being surprised entails a third restriction that being flat-footed does not necessarily entail, namely: (3) being unable to act. This restriction includes all actions, even free actions. However, it does not include any so-called nonaction that you take in reaction to an event, such as a saving throw or a granted Spot or Listen check. You will often notice that a check or a save is described as taking "no action" or "none"; these are all nonactions that you can take while surprised (except for those nonactions that are modifications of other actions, which you cannot take while you are surprised). But you cannot take any actions while you are surprised, not even free actions.

Taelas

2015-12-20, 05:28 PM

The prevailing interpretation of the RAW is that you cannot take actions of any kind while you are surprised, with the exception of special cases, such as attacks of opportunity if you have the Combat Reflexes feat.

I say while you are surprised, because being surprised is a condition that entails more than mere flat-footedness. I can understand your confusion about this, because for a long time, I was confused about this, too. The term "flat-footed" is used to denote several different conditions, of which being surprised is the most restrictive.

Immediately below, I have copied the SRD rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm#surprise) that you need to know. In particular, pay attention to the bold-faced italic text below, indicating emphasis that I have added.

From the foregoing text, it follows that being surprised is actually a more restrictive condition than being flat-footed.

Being flat-footed and being surprised are two different things. You may be flat-footed without being surprised. For example, if you have fewer than five ranks of Balance skill, then while you stand on a narrow surface, you are always flat-footed, but not necessarily surprised.

By itself (that is, in the absence of surprise), flat-footedness entails two drawbacks, which I call attack-impairment and dodge-impairment.

1. Being attack-impaired means being unable to make attacks of opportunity.

2. Being dodge-impaired means being denied the Dexterity bonus that you add to your Armor Class, if any, as well as being denied any Dodge bonus, if any (because the former condition necessarily entails the latter). While you are flat-footed, you still add your Dexterity bonus to Reflex saves, as usual.

Being surprised entails a third restriction that being flat-footed does not necessarily entail, namely: (3) being unable to act. This restriction includes all actions, even free actions. However, it does not include any so-called nonaction that you take in reaction to an event, such as a saving throw or a granted Spot or Listen check. You will often notice that a check or a save is described as taking "no action" or "none"; these are all nonactions that you can take while surprised (except for those nonactions that are modifications of other actions, which you cannot take while you are surprised). But you cannot take any actions while you are surprised, not even free actions.

I am aware of all of this. But we were not speaking of being surprised, we were speaking of being flat-footed. Being surprised is only relevant in that it occurs at the same time as the most common way to become flat-footed--if you are surprised, you are also flat-footed, because it means someone acts before you. But being surprised is not directly linked to being flat-footed. You are flat-footed until your first action, regardless of whether or not you act in the surprise round.

What I wanted to make clear was this: You are not restricted from taking actions while flat-footed (with a few exceptions, such as attacks of opportunity, or Immediate actions). That's all.

P.F.

2015-12-20, 05:41 PM

And as I pointed out multiple times free actions must be taken alongside other actions when they are taken normally. No one has shown me any actions they can take normally while flat footed.

Normally, one can take any action while flat-footed because acting is how one removes the flat-footed condition. The flat-footed condition itself in fact has only two effects:

A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.

But you are correct that the rules dysfunction under discussion here begins before swift and immediate actions were crowbarred into the game. Take the free action:

You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally ... In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn.

This rule was printed before the existence of swift and immediate actions, but implies that there are other actions you could normally take when it isn't your turn, and that you could speak while doing them. However, there are no actions that can "normally" be taken out-of-turn except for free actions, which must be performed "while taking another action." Moreover, the rules go on to say,

Some DMs may rule that a character can only speak on his turn, or that a character can’t speak while flat-footed (and thus can’t warn allies of a surprise threat until he has a chance to act).

So you "may" not be able to take that free action out-of-turn after all. But what about attacks of opportunity? Can't I speak or cast feather fall as part of an attack of opportunity as I am being bull-rushed off a cliff, as long as I'm not flat-footed? No, because

An attack of opportunity is a free melee attack that does not use up any of your actions.

An attack of opportunity is not an action at all, and therefore doesn't allow free actions to be taken at that time either!

So under a narrow reading of Core-Only Rules-As-Written, no free actions can be taken when it is not your turn, even if the free action says it can be taken when it is not your turn, because it must be taken as part of another action which cannot be take out-of-turn. However, since there are no actions which can "normally" be taken out-of turn, we should probably interpret out-of-turn free actions such as speaking and casting feather fall as cases of Specific-Trumps-General, allowing them to be taken out-of-turn even though normally you could not do.

The addition of swift and immediate actions complicates the issue by introducing a class of actions which can be completed when it is not your turn. This means that unless you have the ability to take an immediate action, you cannot use certain free actions such as speaking when it is not your turn. The rules then classify immediate actions as being unusable while flat-footed, presumably for the same reasons that "some DMs" bar flat-footed speech. This creates a more consistent rule set overall, but has the result of making feather fall uncastable while flat-footed.