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ruy343
2015-12-15, 01:18 PM
Hey all,

As you likely know from my other posts on this forum, I'm playing a 4-elements monk, and having a grand time. We just leveled from level 14-15, and I was severely disappointed by what monks get upon gaining that level: 1 more ki point, one more hit dice, and... immunity to magical aging...? I mean, it's really flavorful, and it means that my monk will never grow weaker as he grows older (though I always envisioned him as an old man from the start), but it's rather... niche.

I'm debating whether to multiclass. Is it worth it to tack on another class to monk this late, or should I just finish it out?

Also, a story from our latest gaming session:

After interacting with a deck of many things, our rogue has apparently made himself an inadvertent enemy of a very, very powerful demon. As a result, we were ambushed by a lesser demon that was sent to destroy him. our party was already in a shambles thanks to that deck of many things, so things weren't going too well. It didn't help that the demon was only attacking the rogue (since that was the only person he really needed to kill).

The rogue was down, with one death saving throw failure, and was likely to die next round, since the demon was hovering over him. Fezim up until this point has been attempting to stun the enemy with his punches with no success (high-CR monsters always have really high bonuses to their saves). Seeing the desperate situation, Fezim, my monk, does the only thing a sensible monk would do; run like the dickens. He uses a bonus action to disengage, picks up the unconscious rogue (with a STR 16 monk, this is a cakewalk), and dashes 110 feet. All the party has to do is slow the demon (ray of frost) or knock it prone, and I can run away from it forever. Suffice, to say, we succeed, the rogue survives, and everyone's happy.

Later, our party of heroes is searching for a magical gem, and we have a map that indicates the position thereof, as well as the position of a gem we currently possess. following the map, we come to a small lake, 300 feet across that appears quite deep. The area around the lake has few trees left standing, as they appear to have all been broken by some terrifyingly powerful monster, though we don't know what.

To ensure that the stone is in the lake, my monk grabs the stone that we have, and tells the others to watch the map as he runs around the perimeter of the destruction zone around the lake (which is an additional 300 feet beyond the shores of the lake on all sides). He returns shortly thereafter (yay monk movement speed!) and we successfully ascertain that the stone is, in fact, in the lake.

Fezim, runs out across the lake (monks can run on water) and peers down inside the lake to spot any sort of shrine or other protective, submerged edifices. Once in the middle of the lake, 150 feet away from the shore, a huge green dragon erupts form the water and severely damages Fezim. However, Fezim, who is fearless (and who succeeded on his save against fear), rolls a 27 on an acrobatics check to leap onto the dragon as it takes off into the air.

Now, Fezim has a problem: he's a long ways away from the party, a dragon isn't likely to be affected by a stunning strike, he's low on hit points, and a few punches aren't likely to deal significant damage against a dragon of this size. What's a monk to do?

Help action.

Fezim "helped" the archer fighter get a clear shot (we joked that Fezim tickled the dragon's wings to grant the fighter advantage), allowing him to deal 92 damage in one round (6 shots - sharpshooter -5/+10, action surge, and advantage), and then he used his bonus action to dodge. The dragon didn't like that. However, when the dragon attempted to bite me, I reminded the DM that monks are immune to poison, which is more than half of the damage that it deals with a bite attack.

In the end, we defeated the dragon (barely), but that initial surge of damage is really the only thing that made it possible, since we barely scraped away with that victory at the end (three of our party went down against it, some multiple times).

In short: monks are fun. Then end.

Ninja_Prawn
2015-12-15, 01:41 PM
In short: monks are fun. Then end.

Also: don't mess with a Deck of Many Things. :smalltongue:

ruy343
2015-12-15, 02:00 PM
Also: don't mess with a Deck of Many Things. :smalltongue:

I figured that a wisdom 18 monk would have no desire to participate in drawing from the deck; turns out that was a great idea. However, I was the only party member who had a halfway decent wisdom score, so everyone else drew, and everyone else suffered (two party members actually "died", so their players re-rolled quickly with the DM's help to create thematically appropriate characters before we continued onward).

Blood of Gaea
2015-12-15, 02:12 PM
The Deck of Many Things is honestly bad design to me, the downsides Far outweigh the positives.

Malifice
2015-12-16, 01:34 AM
The Deck of Many Things is honestly bad design to me, the downsides Far outweigh the positives.

I always draw three.

I always regret doing it.

Desamir
2015-12-16, 01:41 AM
Hey all,

As you likely know from my other posts on this forum, I'm playing a 4-elements monk, and having a grand time. We just leveled from level 14-15, and I was severely disappointed by what monks get upon gaining that level: 1 more ki point, one more hit dice, and... immunity to magical aging...? I mean, it's really flavorful, and it means that my monk will never grow weaker as he grows older (though I always envisioned him as an old man from the start), but it's rather... niche.

I'm debating whether to multiclass. Is it worth it to tack on another class to monk this late, or should I just finish it out?

In three more levels you get Empty Body, which is just plain awesome. If you're gonna stick it out until at least then, I'd stay with Monk.

MaxWilson
2015-12-16, 02:20 AM
Now, Fezim has a problem: he's a long ways away from the party, a dragon isn't likely to be affected by a stunning strike, he's low on hit points, and a few punches aren't likely to deal significant damage against a dragon of this size. What's a monk to do?

Help action.

Fezim "helped" the archer fighter get a clear shot (we joked that Fezim tickled the dragon's wings to grant the fighter advantage), allowing him to deal 92 damage in one round (6 shots - sharpshooter -5/+10, action surge, and advantage), and then he used his bonus action to dodge.

The way you write that makes it sound like the monk gave advantage to the archer fighter on all of his shots, instead of just the first one. If so, that is a violation of the rules for Help on PHB 192.


The Deck of Many Things is honestly bad design to me, the downsides Far outweigh the positives.

You're not supposed to draw from the Deck personally. You're supposed to offer random peasants the chance to draw from the Deck, split the monetary proceeds with them, and buy off any uses of Fates that they get so you can use it to draw from the Deck yourself without fear of Donjon/Void/Euryale.

I love the Deck, but I also fear it.

Blood of Gaea
2015-12-16, 03:00 AM
You're not supposed to draw from the Deck personally. You're supposed to offer random peasants the chance to draw from the Deck, split the monetary proceeds with them, and buy off any uses of Fates that they get so you can use it to draw from the Deck yourself without fear of Donjon/Void/Euryale.

I wouldn't allow it as a DM, so I won't do that to another DM. Turning something that's balanced badly to not be worth using it, doesn't get made better by making it overpowered...

MaxWilson
2015-12-16, 03:16 AM
I wouldn't allow it as a DM, so I won't do that to another DM. Turning something that's balanced badly to not be worth using it, doesn't get made better by making it overpowered...

Out of curiosity, how would you disallow it as a DM? Make the Deck disappear after one person draws from it? Even then you're still probably better off making that one person be an NPC or a freshly-rolled PC with no possessions...

Edit: in case my position isn't clear, no sane PC that I play would ever draw from the deck. But not all my PCs are sane.

Blood of Gaea
2015-12-16, 03:27 AM
Out of curiosity, how would you disallow it as a DM?

Well option 1 is for the deck to never enter the game in the first place. Otherwise, I would just fluff the deck to be tied by "fate" or some such to a certain person, or group of people. Anyone else who drew a card would simple get a plain playing card, and cause no change to the deck itself.

While I find the basic Idea of the deck interesting, I think it would done better by lessening the extremes. Most of the rewards and penalties should be minor (a couple gems, an illness, etc.) with only 2-4 cards being really impactful (fight death, loyal fighter follower).

Cybren
2015-12-16, 07:09 AM
Not to get too distracted talking about the deck of many things, but I played in a campaign once that used one well, but only because on the meta-level the DM pre-chose which cards each of us drew, as it was a narrative showdown with a big bad that was more meant to set up future plot threads and allow us to demonstrate how badass we are (my epic level fighter/wizard made short work of the dread wraith, but it was thematically appropriate that the party member that died about 11 times be one the one to draw that card)

RulesJD
2015-12-16, 01:49 PM
Mechanically, taking a Monk past level 11 is pretty bad. You get much more use out of multiclassing at that point. Some favorites of mine are:

Rogue 3 (2d6 sneak, save on Ki for dashing/disengaging, expertise for Stealth/Perception, the subclasses of either Assassin, Arcane Trickster, and Swashbuckler all pair nicely)

Warlock 2 (Invocations that generally are super helpful for a Monk, Hex + Flurry = huge DPR increase)

Cleric 1 (War oddly enough because Divine Favor + Flurry = huge DPR increase AND it doesn't keep eating a bonus action, you also get Bless to concentrate on something which Monk's usually aren't, plus some decent Rituals for flavor, slight DPR increase if you're using a weapon)

Supah Ewok
2015-12-16, 03:27 PM
Mechanically, taking a Monk past level 11 is pretty bad. You get much more use out of multiclassing at that point.

Respectfully disagree, you'll want to get at least Monk 14 for one of the best defensive abilities in the entire game. (Proficiency in ALL saving throws, AND you can spend a ki point to automatically succeed on any saving throw. Edit: I misremembered, the second part just lets you reroll your saving throw. Still good, since it can stack on advantage if you can manage to get it)

After that it depends. Four Ways Monks are extremely ki hungry, and need all the points they can get. Open Hand gets Quivering Palm at 17, which is probably the single best monk offensive ability, but it's not really necessary, especially if you can figure out some good multi-class options.

Shadow Monks, however, don't have a great ability at 17, and none of the general monk stuff past 14 is great for them either. They also, in my opinion, have the best multi-class potential of all monks. The free teleport meshes great with all sorts of other class' abilities.


Warlock 2 (Invocations that generally are super helpful for a Monk, Hex + Flurry = huge DPR increase)

In particular, Devil's Sight Invocation. Pairs really well with the Shadow Monk's ability to cast Darkness. All of a sudden, you've got free advantage on attacks against a wide variety of enemies, and they've got disadvantage to hit you. It doesn't work against everything, (beware of Blindsight, Truesight, and Devilsight) but it does work on so many things it's ridiculous.

Also, a benefit you forgot to mention: having a level in Warlock lets you use items that require Spellcaster attunement. Shadow Monk teleporting around with a Wand of Lightning Bolts, able to line up the perfect shot on a whim? It's the best feeling.

RulesJD
2015-12-16, 06:28 PM
The proficiency in all saves isn't really all that spectacular. Just pick up Resiliency (Wis or Con) and you're pretty much all the way there already. Your dex save is going to be laughably good (especially with evasion). You can get SO much more out of 3 levels in Rogue/Warlock/Fighter(Battlemaster for Riposte with Hex + Sneak Attack) than missing out on +4/+5 proficiency bonus to some saves.

But yes, his biggest mistake was going Elemental Monk. Flavor wise they are super cool. Mechanically they just aren't even comparable to Open Hand or Shadow (my personal favorite).

Supah Ewok
2015-12-16, 06:59 PM
I'd rather get Defensive Duelist than Resiliency + Riposte. My experience with my Shadow Monk is that, past level 8, 18 AC isn't good for much but the trash mobs. If you've got Rogue and Warlock levels, you're gonna be using a finesse weapon anyway, and a bad hit can totally wreck your Concentration on Hex. There's enough Wisdom saving throw spells flying around that for this build, I'm gonna want both Con and Wis save profs, and the extra ki doesn't hurt.

I suppose it comes down to personality. I'd rather have a chunk of survivability buffering my Shadow Monk up, particularly since he has to be alone to use Devil's Sight + Darkness. But more offensively minded players may disagree.

choryukami
2015-12-18, 07:34 AM
Deck of Many Things. Try Augury.

TheTeaMustFlow
2015-12-18, 03:28 PM
Deck of Many Things. Try Augury.

I swear, the things must have some sort of aura that makes people forget they have divination magic - my DM's reaction after I did that way back when was priceless.

MrStabby
2015-12-18, 07:21 PM
So I play in a campaign with a guy playing a monk. He was also a bit worried about the lack of progress in the later levels. I was wondering if advancing into light cleric would be worthwhile?

He has 20 wis so warding flare would be 5X per day disadvantage on attacks against him, lots more out of combat abilities from spells like guidance. Even at high levels some of the cleric/light spells are pretty solid. Faerie fire and bless spring to mind.

georgie_leech
2015-12-18, 07:31 PM
I swear, the things must have some sort of aura that makes people forget they have divination magic - my DM's reaction after I did that way back when was priceless.

Worth noting that given the random chance associated with the Deck of Many Things, the DM is entirely within rights to just give Weal and Woe to any question pertaining to the Deck.