Need help with Gestalt character

[843morgan]

Alright guys so I've got a game coming up in a few weeks and I need your help making a character!

Reason I need help is because I feel my knowledge on 3.5 is lacking as opposed to PF(And plus I'm too prideful to ask my current group as I feel like I'm bothering them- But that's not the point of me asking you guys this!)

So whats happening is one of my friends wants to run a Gestalt game- Nothing special, and I wanna do something with Paladin... I had a few ideas and I'd like to ask for suggestions or detailed ideas on how I can do this- But first some ground rules and special things added to this:


Must start out Paladin. Because I like what it has to offer- but it seems lacking.
Must be human(Not my choice, but GM says we must start out as humans)
Alignment restrictions are off(But going to assassin as a paladin would be a big no no. And Codes of Conduct still exist as well.)
I'd like to use Ancestral Relic for the build as I really like what it brings to the table RP wise.
I'd also like to have a focus in Charisma/CHA based things as I wanna try to be a righteous knight.


Alright so now that I addressed that let me get some ideas I had- But feel free to present your own! Any help would be welcomed and I'd appreciate it very much.

My ideas:

Paladin/Warlock(Sounds edgy at first but I like the idea of a dark heritage behind a holy figure- Plus Melee Eldritch blasts sound awesome!)

Paladin/Crusader(I'd mostly focus my maneuvers gained from Crusader into White Raven as with this I'd want to act like a Martial Support whilst doing my own thing. And minor in Iron Heart techniques. I just want to basically lead the charge with my other melee party members so we can wreck house!)

Paladin/Knight(Another more holier than thou thing- I like sword and board fighting and Knight would allow me to be a defender yada yada.)

Paladin/Battle Dancer(Cha into AC sounds awesome and I'd possibly entertain the idea of doing some sort of Sword and fist two weapon fighting combo- But the DEX requirement might kill me.)

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I'm not sure if what I'm asking is too specific and I'm not so sure if I'm sounding like I'm asking for too much but I would appreciate any and all help with this. Thanks for taking the time to read this up!

[Troacctid]

What level are you starting at? Also, are templates allowed, and if so, does the LA take up both sides or just one? Because if you can take a template on one side, you probably should.

I would not recommend Knight. While it is flavorful, it's also underpowered and redundant. You're already getting all the Knight flavor you need from Paladin.

I do like Warlock, especially if your DM lets you use Eldritch Glaive while mounted. The class offers some good utility and works well with Charisma. It would leave you light on skill points, though, which could cut down on your out-of-combat abilities.

Incarnate or Totemist would be a strong choice. They're pretty much always good in gestalt.

Rogue is worth considering. In particular, the variant that trades sneak attack for bonus feats tends to be strong on martial characters.

Binder would be an interesting choice. It's Charisma-based and offers some neat utility.

I actually like Swordsage over Crusader if you've got Paladin on the other side. The chassis lines up a lot better, giving you improved skill points and all good saves, where the Crusader is wasting its good BAB and Fortitude. (Don't get fooled into thinking you need Wisdom for the AC thing, because you don't. You can still just wear armor.) Devoted Spirit stuff is nice, but you can get it from feats or items, or just take a quick dip.

Battle Dancer is mostly a trap as the class is very weak overall. You might dip one level for Cha to AC, but only if your Cha is really high, or else it's not even worth giving up armor.

In general, you want to avoid redundancy as much as possible. Gestalting a class with itself is the same as not gestalting at all. Use the other side to expand your options.

[Aleolus]

I like the Pally//Knight myself. They synergize well mechanically, and the Knight gets a lot of bonus feats and abilities that work well with the Pally stuff (Mounted Combat from the Knight combined with the Paladin Special Mount for one). Another good mixture is Pally//Cleric, I've played one of those and it was pretty fun

[Troacctid]

Knight doesn't really synergize mechanically. The BAB and proficiencies are redundant, it doesn't provide any extra skills, Knight's Challenge doesn't really do anything, the bonus feats are mediocre, and half the levels are dead. Paladins are starved enough for meaningful class features without putting another do-nothing class on the other side.

[Theodred theOld]

Consider paladin//bard for a moment. All the good saves and full BAB plus a nice passive party buff and a bunch of utility from a decent spell list. Perhaps your relic is an enchanted lute/lyre/harp/whatever that is animated to play while you sing and stab evildoers.

[Grod_The_Giant]

You note that Paladin is lacking... And it really is, in 3.5. It's significantly easier to build a holy knight in other ways. Cleric/Ordained Champion/Fist of Raziel does a pretty great job of it, with smiting and martial ability out the wazoo. Cleric//Crusader would make a seriously potent Paladin type all by itself, doubly so if you add on the right PrCs.

Crusader//Bard would work quite well too, with plenty of use for Charisma, spells and holy combat magic, and the most inspiring leadership around.

Warlock makes a decent second half of a gestalt. Knight and Battle Dancer are quite bad, though.

[Cosi]

You note that Paladin is lacking... And it really is, in 3.5. It's significantly easier to build a holy knight in other ways. Cleric/Ordained Champion/Fist of Raziel does a pretty great job of it, with smiting and martial ability out the wazoo. Cleric//Crusader would make a seriously potent Paladin type all by itself, doubly so if you add on the right PrCs.

I'd go with a melee Cleric build on one side (Cleric/RKV/Ordained Champoion, maybe a Prestige Paladin dip) and Crusader/Bard with Song of the White Raven on the other side. That gives you a very solid holy warrior build, with solid stats all around. If you don't/can't go RKV (maneuvers not on the right side, no theurge PrCs, conflicting god requirements), you might drop Crusader for Warblade.

Also, who thought it was a good idea for the two ToB theurges to have hardcoded requirements for ideology?

[Xervous]

I'd go with a melee Cleric build on one side (Cleric/RKV/Ordained Champoion, maybe a Prestige Paladin dip) and Crusader/Bard with Song of the White Raven on the other side. That gives you a very solid holy warrior build, with solid stats all around. If you don't/can't go RKV (maneuvers not on the right side, no theurge PrCs, conflicting god requirements), you might drop Crusader for Warblade.

Also, who thought it was a good idea for the two ToB theurges to have hardcoded requirements for ideology?

You should be able to swing RKV given how it doesn't have much crunch to back up any of its flavor. For crying out loud there's only a tiny class feature that even tangentially relates to Wee Jas, no ACP on sneaking.

[843morgan]

Alright- Its been a long time since I last posted on this thread after so much thinking...

And I wanted to try a new concept if that doesn't sound too demanding.

I now want to build a Paladin/Wilder Gestalt. While not as strong as could be a- Crusader/Wilder Gestalt, or anything- I get access to psionics, which is pretty awesome in 3.5 if I was told right.

Now I'd like to just get to building on the Paladin/Wilder- With the plan of not using Paladin spells as they're Wisdom based.

But first things first if you're interested, here are the character creation rules for this game Im in-

Gestalt

30 point buy
No money or gear except clothes and a spellbook for casters
Option of up to two flaws and two traits(Though I'd prefer just taking the two flaws as Im not a big fan of 3.5 traits)
Must start out as human(As mentioned before in the thread.)


I wanna see what you can do with this- And thanks for helping if ou do

[ExLibrisMortis]

What I'm getting is that you want to be a psionic holy knight, and possibly the party defender. Is that right? Because if it is, you don't want more than two levels of paladin - paladins are no good at defending people, in 3.5 anyway. You can do something like paladin 2/marshal 1/cloistered cleric 1/psychic warrior 2/fighter 2/martial rogue 2/crusader 1/hexblade 2/martial monk 2//wilder 5/anarchic initiate 10. Effectively, you're augmenting a pure wilder/anarchic initiate build with charisma synergy and bonus feats. However, this is just a very rough (non-focused) outline, and you should substitute better abilities where possible.

[morkendi]

as a suggestion, If you want a wisdom based psionic character Pally//psy warrior might be better than wilder. More feats, The over-channel that wilder gives can cause you to be ineffective and especial bad if on the front line and can be replicated with a feat, with the no weapon or equipment part you mentioned, call weapon would be very nice as a first lvl power. You can be decently effective naked with call weapon and inertial armor. Use Pally spells to buff later on and psy warrior powers for offensive attacks and such. Hustle at 2nd lvl is an awesome power to set up charges. Once you get it, you can get a reach weapon and do something like charge and attack for high damage with the right feats then manifest hustle to back off and let them come to you for AOO. With this feat tree as you go up in levels, you will be a powerhouse in melee with this tactic.

Power attack
Combat reflexes
Cleave
Imp bull rush
Leep attack
Imp sunder
Shock trooper
Great cleave
Combat brute

Add your smites and divine favor and such, you will do some major damage.

[Yuki Akuma]

Paladin//Sorcerer would honestly be the best choice. But Paladin//Wilder is okay I suppose.

You should use your Paladin spells entirely for buffs, because those don't require a good save DC. Stick to your Sorcerer or Wilder side for anything like crowd control. Mostly, you should use your Paladin side as your 'passive' side - use it for BaB, awesome saves, immunities and so on. Sorcerer/Wilder is your 'active' side, the one that you use most of your actions on.

[Bobbybobby99]

I personally recommend either a Paladin//Shugenja or a Paladin//Spirit shaman, either one, but if you want to be Psionic, be a Psion and tough out the MAD. Shugenjas and Spirit shamans (both fluffed as being regular shamans in a western setting) are so much more flavorful that sorcerers and psionics. You can bargain with spirits, wield the primal power of the inner planes; what isn't to love? And you can cast in armor!!! Wilders are just mediocre compared to Psions, so I really recommend using Psion if you don't want to be moderately terrible. You have a fairly generous point buy-use it.

[843morgan]

What I'm getting is that you want to be a psionic holy knight, and possibly the party defender. Is that right? Because if it is, you don't want more than two levels of paladin - paladins are no good at defending people, in 3.5 anyway. You can do something like paladin 2/marshal 1/cloistered cleric 1/psychic warrior 2/fighter 2/martial rogue 2/crusader 1/hexblade 2/martial monk 2//wilder 5/anarchic initiate 10. Effectively, you're augmenting a pure wilder/anarchic initiate build with charisma synergy and bonus feats. However, this is just a very rough (non-focused) outline, and you should substitute better abilities where possible.

I really like this whole build concept- But as someone who is- Kinda trash at 3.5 I have no idea how I could execute it. Like what I should pick and what should I stay away from in terms of abilities/Spells/etc. And not sure what combos I could do- I'm sure you get what Im saying(I hope,) because I dont wanna seem stupid or anything like that :T

[Yuki Akuma]

There is a psychic holy knight class already - the Divine Mind.

It sucks though so don't use it.

Maybe Crusader//Ardent would do it better, honestly - you can fluff Ardent abilities as being from divine inspiration, seeing as they have the same basic abilities as Divine Minds (just better), and Crusaders do the 'holy warrior' thing way better than Paladin.