Tongues and sign language

[Psykenthrope]

Here's a bit of an odd question:

Does the tongues spell allow one to communicate in sign language if the entity with which they are attempting to converse is deaf? Or otherwise only understands sign language?

NOTE: I am not saying all deaf people understand sign language or that they can't read lips. This question only cares about sign language.

Further question:

Does the comprehend languages spell allow one to understand sign language being used by another?

EDIT NOTE: Nor am I saying that all deaf people can read lips. This question only cares about the interaction of sign language with fictional spells.

[kopout]

I'd say yes. Both work on written material so we know they aren't strictly sound based.

[Anxe]

I would also say yes for my campaigns, but I'm not sure what the RAW answer would be. Are sign languages spoken or signed? If spoken is the correct verb, it works. If signed is, then it doesn't.

[goto124]

But it's called Tongues. Sign language doesn't involve tongues!

:smalltongue:

Does Comprehend Languages understand code, though? How are codes different from languages? Aren't codes a form of language that only a few people (or a certain type of people) understand?

[Steampunkette]

It must understand Code enough to allow you to understand a language, so I would say it understands codes...

[Segev]

Tongues allows you to converse in all languages. Sign language is a language.

We can argue over whether the verb "speak" is synonymous with "converse," but I don't think a strict RAW argument which comes down to DM decision is useful here. Personally, I'd make it work unless the sign language was explicitly a code. Codes muck with tongues and comprehend languages because they carry double meanings or gibberish meanings in the language they encode. Magic is not science, and can have semi-illogical boundaries such as "it's a language"/"it's a code," even if one could make an argument that a code is just a deliberately-constructed language in a real, non-magical sense.

[Anxe]

But it's called Tongues. Sign language doesn't involve tongues!

:smalltongue:

Does Comprehend Languages understand code, though? How are codes different from languages? Aren't codes a form of language that only a few people (or a certain type of people) understand?

The spells deliberately say they don't translate code.

[goto124]

The GM could also say Comprehend Languages is more like bringing a translator without the hassle of finding one, and translators can't interpret codes.

"Cow cow fish duck penguin... no really, that's what I got. I don't understand the meaning behind it, just the words. Can't help more than that, sorry."

[Khedrac]

The first question has to be - for what game system are you asking? The tongues spell is in lots of them (I think) and this is not a system-specific forum - those are the sub-forums.

The next thing is that normal real-world sign language is not a language - they are different ways of communicating in an already existing language - such as English or French.
There are lots of different versions of sign-language just for English, I have no idea about for other languages.
Some signs may be fairly universal across different base languages (English, French etc.) sign languages but then so are some spoken and written words.
Others will be very different even in the different variants of sign-language for a single base language (e.g. US English).

So, by my interpretation there are three ways to communicate in most major languages - spoken, written and sign.

So, what does this mean for spells that allow communication in other languages? I think it might be a problem if you already know the language in use, but not the sign version of it.
For other languages, it's a part of the language and so should probably be included in the language.
For sign-only languages - it's a language.

One question is "should the spell automatically grant knowledge of sign?"
If the spell takes knowledge from an existing "speaker" of the language then I would think the recipient gets the subject's knowledge - which might not include the written form or the spoken but just the sign!
Even if the spell does grant knowledge of sign, unless the character uses sign a lot they probably should not realize this unless they see it used. It simply won't occur to the character that sign is an option until they see someone make a gesture and know what it means.

[Âmesang]

"Cow cow fish duck penguin... no really, that's what I got. I don't understand the meaning behind it, just the words. Can't help more than that, sorry."
"He's saying 'the world is in need of cow pee (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uZK0A1swGs)'. Does anyone know what that means? Do we want to know what that means?"

(Also I suddenly want to break out Tome of Battle and make a spearman.)

[SpoonR]

Can it translate an adventuring party's shorthand combat talk?
Can the spell translate writing, and can it allow you to write in that other language?
Can it translate ciphers?
Can it interpret an alien's body language?
Can it interpret sign language, semaphore, Morse code, ship flag commands, etc?
Can it let you communicate with a species that only communicates via telepathy?

That is roughly my scale of difficulty, easy at top hardest at bottom. Decide where you want the line to fall.

[DigoDragon]

The GM could also say Comprehend Languages is more like bringing a translator without the hassle of finding one, and translators can't interpret codes.

I agree with this interpretation, translating literally. I know enough Spanish to translate for my friends, but if the speaker starts using codes, I only get what sounds like random words.



"Cow cow fish duck penguin... no really, that's what I got. I don't understand the meaning behind it, just the words. Can't help more than that, sorry."

"I thought he asked me to bring him four candles. I did, and then he angrily threw his broken rake at me."

[Amphetryon]

The GM could also say Comprehend Languages is more like bringing a translator without the hassle of finding one, and translators can't interpret codes.

"Cow cow fish duck penguin... no really, that's what I got. I don't understand the meaning behind it, just the words. Can't help more than that, sorry."

"Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra."