Suggestions for a Swarm

[Doctor Despair]

Off hand I recalled a rule that creatures tiny and smaller can occupy the same square as another creature, so I pose a question: is there a way to control masses of these creatures as individuals, and buff them to actually be harmful in some way? I feel as though having an actual swarm would be less helpful than scores of small creatures, though I could be wrong.


What creatures would be best for this,
what method is most efficient to control them,
and how much can we buff them?



Two things immediately came to mind:

I was curious what the interaction between a low HD creature and animate undead was, since, iirc, there is a feat to have all your undead deal a flat amount of negative energy damage on death and enervate. I'm picturing 25 bats "swarming" around the target, ripe for a quickened AOE spell to trigger yet more AOE damage.

I was wondering about how the mechanics of handle animal function on the battlefield if you have, say, those 25 bats on the battlefield. Is handle animal a move action? Could you handle all of them at once with the simple command to attack?

[PraxisVetli]

I would think at a certain point they would be considered a swarm.
Swarms are treated as single creatures, so it wouldn't work.

However, somewhere, maybe in the MM entry, it dictates how many creatures you need, so theoretically, you could have one less and it wouldn't 'technically' be a swarm.
The books flying might make a swarm though.
The downside is that if they are a swarm, they'd be much easier to manipulate.

[Doctor Despair]

However, somewhere, maybe in the MM entry, it dictates how many creatures you need, so theoretically, you could have one less and it wouldn't 'technically' be a swarm.

Some quick internet searches yielded that a swarm of flying diminuitive creatures is 5,000; they would occupy a 10x10x10 cube, or approximately 625 in each 5x5 square. The rules on movement state that only 25 diminutive creatures can occupy the same square comfortably, while the text on swarms details that individual members are crawling over one another. I'm not sure if 5000 total is the magic number, or 625 in a square, or more than 25, but I think we can safely avoid a swarm if we do not want one.

[nedz]

Swarm

Swarms are dense masses of Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creatures ...

...

A swarm of Tiny creatures consists of 300 nonflying creatures or 1,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Diminutive creatures consists of 1,500 nonflying creatures or 5,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Fine creatures consists of 10,000 creatures, whether they are flying or not. Swarms of nonflying creatures include many more creatures than could normally fit in a 10-foot square based on their normal space, because creatures in a swarm are packed tightly together and generally crawl over each other and their prey when moving or attacking. Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms. A large swarm is completely shapeable, though it usually remains contiguous.

Most swarms have Space 10' (Shapeable) - which means 4 contiguous squares.

[PraxisVetli]

I wasn't sure on the numbers.

[daremetoidareyo]

If you pimp out your handle animal skill you have some options. Vermin trainer will allow you to affect mindless vermin. PHB2 has the ability to teach animals teamwork benefits.

Teamwork benefits for tons of expendible friends
heroes of Battle
Joint bullrush looks good
Joint ram might work if you really argue a lot
Spellcaster defense is ridiculously good. A sparrow swarm of kamikazi protectors from AOO while you cast any spell you flippin want.
PHB2
Cunning ambush could work well with joint bullrush
Foe hunting is fantastic, but the +4 bab might be a problem
You can use this to make epic skill checks at like 5th level. Make a suit and fill it with snakes. If they aid you on your balance checks each turn, you can balance on air molecules if you want to.

[AvatarVecna]

Making a massive swarm of tiny creatures legitimately dangerous? Sounds like you need a H.I.V.E.!

[Hiro Quester]

A Vermin Druid can have a centipede swarm or a locust swarm as their animal companion. That means buff spells, abilities, feats and skills applying to swarms.

Rules for this are here: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040705a


Swarms might be very unusual when thought of as a companion, but the image of a druid pointing and a mass of small creatures moving to attack is too good not to include. A swarm acts as a single creature for purposes of special abilities described below.

Edit: while the swarm can have special abilities, be buffed by spells, and an empathic link with the Druid, it can't have feats or skills.

[Demonic_Spoon]

Off hand I recalled a rule that creatures tiny and smaller can occupy the same square as another creature, so I pose a question: is there a way to control masses of these creatures as individuals, and buff them to actually be harmful in some way? I feel as though having an actual swarm would be less helpful than scores of small creatures, though I could be wrong.


What creatures would be best for this,
what method is most efficient to control them,
and how much can we buff them?

You can make your animal companions and familiars swarm creatures. Beyond that you can make some shredstorm construct swarms to fill out the numbers.
Generally I consider actual swarms superior to just lots of small creatures due to nifty weapon immunity as well as immunity to single target effects.

I favour ephemeral swarms (incorporeality ho!) and the various elemental swarms.

[Doctor Despair]

You can make your animal companions and familiars swarm creatures. Beyond that you can make some shredstorm construct swarms to fill out the numbers.
Generally I consider actual swarms superior to just lots of small creatures due to nifty weapon immunity as well as immunity to single target effects.

I favour ephemeral swarms (incorporeality ho!) and the various elemental swarms.

I was thinking about the logistics of it and how official swarms are treated as one creature. Doesn't that mean it would interact less effectively with different buffing effects? Otherwise, for flavor, an actual swarm would definitely be better for those reasons!

[Demonic_Spoon]

I was thinking about the logistics of it and how official swarms are treated as one creature. Doesn't that mean it would interact less effectively with different buffing effects? Otherwise, for flavor, an actual swarm would definitely be better for those reasons!
For buffing, I think Familiars may be able to get it easily enough via share spells, but other than that it is a problem yeah.

EDIT: Trying to remember where the Swarm Familiar feat is...

[Hiro Quester]

There's also the Vermin Lord PrC in BoVD. Gets swarm armor, a spew swarm breath attack, and can create a hive mind.

I don't recall a vermin/swarm familiar, though.

Edit:
the vermin lord gets a "vermin servant" familiar. But there's no mention of a swarm as a possibility, as I recall. The vermin druid's list seems a reasonable one to use, and it includes swarms.

[nedz]

A Warlock with Summon Swarm can have a swarm 24/7, subject to concentration, and with Dark Discorporation can become a swarm.

[Hiro Quester]

You can't control a Summon Swarm, though. It attacks the nearest creature. Plus concentration on one spell all day would be kind of limiting.

Edit: the verminlord's spew swarm breath attack ability does d6/level damage, and then becomes a summon swarm, like the spell, but the vermin lord can control the swarm.