How to defeat Temporis? [cWoD] Role Playing/Planning Help!

[fishyfishyfishy]

I have gotten myself into a sticky situation in our groups cWoD game (no, not just VtM-we mix it all up) and now I have to kill an Elder True Brujah who has displayed rank 5 Temporis, Potence, and Fortitude. He also is an extremely potent warrior and probably has other powers I don't know about. He stepped down as Prince and I replaced him. I have access to billions of dollars, and I'm a fairly powerful Ventrue in my own right but this guy terrifies my character. And before you ask, yes he has to die. And I have to be 100% sure that he's dead. I can trust that most of the Kindred in the city are going to stay out of this, and that the few who might interfere will be on my side. He wasn't very popular, but he was feared. The major issue I'm having is how to get around this time reversal crap he can do. It seems that I have to put him down instantaneously or he'll get away!

So I'm turning to you playground. Help me demolish this enemy.

[Astralia123]

This situation seems you can assassinate him whatever way you wish, as no one would help him according to your knowledge. And you have the money, the connections and allies, so you can hire any service you would require. Say you can buy him at least 3 funerals or even hire/manipulate a bunch of vampire slayers to get rid of him.

I do not know much about VtM but usually I would call this an "already-won battle".

Unless he really has connections you know nothing about...My storyteller loves this and it is almost default in any of her "mixed up" WoD campaigns. (I mean, when there really are so many different supernatural beings living in the same city, it is almost certain any powerful individual would have the right cross-template connection that can surprise you in the face.)


So it is important to make sure of your storyteller's world setting and style, I guess.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Not very familiar with classic, but would blowing up the building he's in work?

[Anonymouswizard]

Not very familiar with classic, but would blowing up the building he's in work?

Possibly, depends if he has enough BP to get out.


My suggestion? Use your resources to hire lots of people. Have them scout during the day, locate his haven, and set it on fire. Put some guys in the local sewer with automatic weapons or flamethrowers.

[A_Man]

If its an elder, then it definitely could survive pretty much everything mortals can throw at it, especially with so much fortitude. Only danger is really fire and sunlight. (And fangs.)

Where are you? Are the buildings stone or wood? Is destroying buildings viable? (As cammarilla it may be a problem to stage a fight in daytime). What time period? How many vampires can you bring in?

[fishyfishyfishy]

A few other things I should note: he doesn't know yet that I am trying to kill him. I am sure that he is suspicious though because I accused him of being involved in a Lilin cult. A Justiciar sent several Archons to subdue him, they haven't returned.


This situation seems you can assassinate him whatever way you wish, as no one would help him according to your knowledge. And you have the money, the connections and allies, so you can hire any service you would require. Say you can buy him at least 3 funerals or even hire/manipulate a bunch of vampire slayers to get rid of him.

I do not know much about VtM but usually I would call this an "already-won battle".

Unless he really has connections you know nothing about...My storyteller loves this and it is almost default in any of her "mixed up" WoD campaigns. (I mean, when there really are so many different supernatural beings living in the same city, it is almost certain any powerful individual would have the right cross-template connection that can surprise you in the face.)


So it is important to make sure of your storyteller's world setting and style, I guess.

On the surface it does seem to be heavily stacked in my favor, but the ST has already used Abominations and other things in this game. I'm sure there is something up his sleeve.



Where are you? Are the buildings stone or wood? Is destroying buildings viable? (As cammarilla it may be a problem to stage a fight in daytime). What time period? How many vampires can you bring in?


Dallas, Texas. Modern day. Most of the kindred are terrified of him and would only actively help if I forced them to, so I am unsure on the number.



My suggestion? Use your resources to hire lots of people. Have them scout during the day, locate his haven, and set it on fire. Put some guys in the local sewer with automatic weapons or flamethrowers.

His last known location was outside of the city at some truck stop, just kind of waiting around. He had one of the Archons call me on the phone and request that I come talk to him. I asked to speak to him directly, but I could hear him in the background refusing to use the phone. He has some kind of paranoia about people listening in on his phone conversations.

[JeenLeen]

I read over Temporis a while ago in whatever Dark Ages book it is detailed in, and from my memory of its details and glancing over the description in the White Wolf wiki, rank 5 shouldn't be too terribly powerful. If 7+, you're screwed if you don't instantly kill him, but at 5 you should be safe as long as he doesn't trap you in a time loop (rank 2) or stasis (rank 4). Rank 1 is useless, 3 is a slow spell, and 5 is basically Celerity, so none of those can keep him from dying or instant-kill you directly.

I say use indirect means, so he can't trap you in a time loop and finish you off. Mercenaries, leak info about him to local mages or hunters, etc. If he's low-gen as well as an elder, maybe you can convince an Assamite to take him out for his potent vitae. Or, if he's hurt the Brujah as his clan is prone to do, maybe you can find some that would help you for revenge.

But, mainly, stay out of line of sight.
One possible idea: if you have strong Presence, use the power that compels the target to come to your location. He might know it's a trap, but, well, you know if that matters or not. Have the mercs and others lined up to help you, and you run if needed, leading him through more traps, including possibly explosions with fire.
The big downside of indirect means is that, if he gets away, you can't stop him as easily, nor can you as easily confirm he really did die.

If you think he might have mage allies, try to find one of your own to put a Correspondence shield up in the ambush area, so he can't be teleported away (at least easily) by his ally. (I'm assuming here that, as Prince, you have the knowledge to know this is a risk.) The Tremere might be able to do something similar.

[LibraryOgre]

Personally, I'd start reaching outside of the Clans, and see if you can't find someone to do it for you. A Euthanatos assassin might be willing, and be able to use a combination of Entropy and Time to keep him in place.

[fishyfishyfishy]

I read over Temporis a while ago in whatever Dark Ages book it is detailed in, and from my memory of its details and glancing over the description in the White Wolf wiki, rank 5 shouldn't be too terribly powerful. If 7+, you're screwed if you don't instantly kill him, but at 5 you should be safe as long as he doesn't trap you in a time loop (rank 2) or stasis (rank 4). Rank 1 is useless, 3 is a slow spell, and 5 is basically Celerity, so none of those can keep him from dying or instant-kill you directly.

I say use indirect means, so he can't trap you in a time loop and finish you off. Mercenaries, leak info about him to local mages or hunters, etc. If he's low-gen as well as an elder, maybe you can convince an Assamite to take him out for his potent vitae. Or, if he's hurt the Brujah as his clan is prone to do, maybe you can find some that would help you for revenge.

But, mainly, stay out of line of sight.
One possible idea: if you have strong Presence, use the power that compels the target to come to your location. He might know it's a trap, but, well, you know if that matters or not. Have the mercs and others lined up to help you, and you run if needed, leading him through more traps, including possibly explosions with fire.
The big downside of indirect means is that, if he gets away, you can't stop him as easily, nor can you as easily confirm he really did die.

If you think he might have mage allies, try to find one of your own to put a Correspondence shield up in the ambush area, so he can't be teleported away (at least easily) by his ally. (I'm assuming here that, as Prince, you have the knowledge to know this is a risk.) The Tremere might be able to do something similar.

My best guess is he is gen 6, maybe 5. Not really sure tbh. So he's quite potent. He showed the ability to actually reverse time by about 2 minutes. I'm not sure what rank that is but I know for sure he has at least rank 5. I've tried contact with the Aasimite clan already but they haven't contacted me yet. It seems they're experiencing their own crisis right now.

I only have Presence 3.

A disturbing trend I've noticed, and only recently was able try to rectify, is that during his time as Prince he severely weakened the Camarilla's presence in the city. Tremere are almost unheard of, most of the Brujah and Nosferatu were killed off by the Abominations I mentioned, and the Ventrue were limited to myself and a few others.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Personally, I'd start reaching outside of the Clans, and see if you can't find someone to do it for you. A Euthanatos assassin might be willing, and be able to use a combination of Entropy and Time to keep him in place.

I am unfamiliar with Mage. How would one go about contacting an assassin line this?

[JeenLeen]

My best guess is he is gen 6, maybe 5. Not really sure tbh. So he's quite potent. He showed the ability to actually reverse time by about 2 minutes. I'm not sure what rank that is but I know for sure he has at least rank 5. I've tried contact with the Aasimite clan airway but they haven't contacted me yet. It seems they're experiencing their own crisis right now.

I only have Presence 3.

A disturbing trend I've noticed, and only recently was able try to rectify, is that during his time as Prince he severely weakened the Camarilla's presence in the city. Tremere are almost unheard of, most of the Brujah and Nosferatu were killed off by the Abominations I mentioned, and the Ventrue were limited to myself and a few others.

I'm not sure exactly what rank that is, but that is high (or using a different sourcebook than the one I read.) Scary high.

If you can find a mage with decent Time magic, they might be able to make some time shields that would mess up his powers... but I would think with that high a rank, his power would probably trump the Time Sphere, at least with how most recommendations about having Spheres and Disciplines interact go. Also, Temporis 1 would let the guy realize something is going on with time, which may tip him off.

It sounds like he's eliminated the vampires who would be the biggest routes. No Nosferatu = less scouts/info-gathering to use against him. Brujah are the traditional foes of True Brujah, and no Tremere means no odd magic to deal with. And if he can time travel, you do need to kill him quickly, ideally a one-shot, which is hard with good Fortitude.
With your money, maybe get some powerful rocket launchers (like anti-tank/aircraft powerful), find him, and blast him. Check with your GM what sort of rounds are needed to count as fire.

[fishyfishyfishy]

I looked it up on the wiki. It seems he's using the version from Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand. Which is terrifying because it is listed as a rank 8 power :smalleek:

[JeenLeen]

Having a rank 8 Discipline means he's Generation 6 at least. So, yeah, really scary. His Fortitude and Potence might be up there, too, meaning he might soak damage a lot more than anticipated. Are you sure you're supposed to be able to kill him?


I am unfamiliar with Mage. How would one go about contacting an assassin line this?

You're easiest way is to contact any Tradition mage who's friendly to you (or you can trade with), and ask them to pass the word around. The Order of Hermes might be willing to take him down, too, but they are generally anti-vampire in general so getting one to work with you can be tricky. Any mage familiar with the Net (it is the internet, but also a spiritual realm) could post a contract to some message boards or Spy's Demise (a neutral location in the Net) where you can hire unsavory characters. Your GM might be ticked at metagaming if you try something like this, though, since I highly doubt your vamp knows about the Net like mages do. But asking a Tradition mage to ask around seems reasonable.
But with his power, I question how useful it'd be. Still, Entropy 5 can really mess guys up. That can mess with a guy's destiny and beliefs, as well as enforce a geas.

If you can get ties to the Giovanni, a ghost might be able to get info on him easily (or more easily than most), but having ties/favors owed to the Giovanni can have bad results.
Some Euthanatoi have ghost allies, or you could get any mage with Spirit to help you with spirit allies, at least potentially. Not having corporeal form makes it harder for a powerful vamp to hurt them, so good for info-gathering.

As a rather last-ditch effort, leaking what he is to the Technocracy might work. They would definitely want to kill him, but they'd also want to kill you and other vamps, and they'd be less likely to negotiate. But with his power, I reckon unless he's acting up he'd be able to take anyone willing to fight him unless they do a strong, STRONG scry-and-die.

[Kurald Galain]

Well...

Assuming you have the connections to pull it off, there's a werewolf fetish that shuts off time magic.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Having a rank 8 Discipline means he's Generation 6 at least. So, yeah, really scary. His Fortitude and Potence might be up there, too, meaning he might soak damage a lot more than anticipated. Are you sure you're supposed to be able to kill him?

Absolutely, unfortunately. This isn't your average game. We've been dealing with very powerful threats from the beginning. On the upside one thing I was able to confirm in character is that using Temporis temporarily drains his Fortitude, leaving him more vulnerable. If I can find a way to trick him into over using it, without him getting away, I can weaken him.



You're easiest way is to contact any Tradition mage who's friendly to you (or you can trade with), and ask them to pass the word around. The Order of Hermes might be willing to take him down, too, but they are generally anti-vampire in general so getting one to work with you can be tricky. Any mage familiar with the Net (it is the internet, but also a spiritual realm) could post a contract to some message boards or Spy's Demise (a neutral location in the Net) where you can hire unsavory characters. Your GM might be ticked at metagaming if you try something like this, though, since I highly doubt your vamp knows about the Net like mages do. But asking a Tradition mage to ask around seems reasonable.
But with his power, I question how useful it'd be. Still, Entropy 5 can really mess guys up. That can mess with a guy's destiny and beliefs, as well as enforce a geas.

Yea that's not going to fly. My character is kind of old fashioned when it comes to using tech. It would be totally out of character to know something like this. I wouldn't be above others using tech for my advantage though.



As a rather last-ditch effort, leaking what he is to the Technocracy might work. They would definitely want to kill him, but they'd also want to kill you and other vamps, and they'd be less likely to negotiate. But with his power, I reckon unless he's acting up he'd be able to take anyone willing to fight him unless they do a strong, STRONG scry-and-die.

See I had a potential contact (another player) for the Technocracy and then he decided he had something really important to do in Russia. So he's kind of unavailable atm and I wouldn't know how else to get in touch with them. EDIT: The character, not the player is in Russia.


Well...

Assuming you have the connections to pull it off, there's a werewolf fetish that shuts off time magic.

That is actually feasible. There is a Glass Walker tribe in the city. They helped out with the Abominations that were attacking a few months back. They've kept their distance since but they could be approachable. Do you know what it is called, or what book it appears in?

EDIT: Thank you everyone by the way. This is all very helpful.

[JeenLeen]

That is actually feasible. There is a Glass Walker tribe in the city. They helped out with the Abominations that were attacking a few months back. They've kept their distance since but they could be approachable. Do you know what it is called, or what book it appears in?


A more far-fetched idea would be to use the werewolves' caern (base of operations, spiritual center) as an ambush location. If you knew where it was or got permission. Most (maybe all) caerns, but especially powerful ones, have powerful totem spirits that guard them. If he was threatening the caern, you could get that to help deal with him while you fought as well.
This probably won't help for the current threat, but keep it in mind if one comes that threatens you and the garou (werewolves).


On the thought of his powers, when he went back in time, how did it play out? Were there two of him temporarily, or did he just become his past self (healed but with memories), or something else? The more you know about how his time travel works, the more you can get around how it would stop you from killing him.

[A_Man]

Have you located his ghouls? Dominating them should help.

Ooh, if you have other supernaturals, yeah, a Euthonatos assasin would be perfect. Though youd have to convince it that the true brujah is an affront to the wheel while you arent.

Werewolves are good.

With fortitude I wouldnt touch anything that doesnt do aggravated damage, and even then I'd be worried. You know any abyss mystics? Hungry shades would help immensley, even tho they only do lethal.

If you could start a rumor about brujah being about, it might draw him into an ambush. True Brujah HATE brujah with a mighty passion. Like, darkages tremere tzmisce hatred.

[comicshorse]

A few other things I should note: he doesn't know yet that I am trying to kill him. I am sure that he is suspicious though because I accused him of being involved in a Lilin cult. A Justiciar sent several Archons to subdue him, they haven't returned.


If he's killed Archon's that's good (for you). Killing Archons is a definite No No and the kind of thing any self respecting Justicar is going to have to deal with if they intend to keep their position. If you can gather evidence he has killed or subverted Archons and get it to the relevent Justicar you can bet some pretty big guns will be looking for his scalp in short order

[fishyfishyfishy]

A more far-fetched idea would be to use the werewolves' caern (base of operations, spiritual center) as an ambush location. If you knew where it was or got permission. Most (maybe all) caerns, but especially powerful ones, have powerful totem spirits that guard them. If he was threatening the caern, you could get that to help deal with him while you fought as well.
This probably won't help for the current threat, but keep it in mind if one comes that threatens you and the garou (werewolves).

That's a good idea. I'll keep that in mind.



On the thought of his powers, when he went back in time, how did it play out? Were there two of him temporarily, or did he just become his past self (healed but with memories), or something else? The more you know about how his time travel works, the more you can get around how it would stop you from killing him.

He became his past self with the memories of what took place. At the time this happened, I was there with him and actually witnessed him using the power. This was long before we were enemies. Out of character I knew everything that happened, but in character I "felt" something happen and had a vague deja vu feeling and he explained to me what he did and told me a half truth about the events he reversed. An Int+Occult roll gave me the name of the Discipline, and some research revealed to me the other abilities it is capable of.


Have you located his ghouls? Dominating them should help.
He recently killed all but one of his ghouls. And that one has been surprisingly difficult to locate. I'm guessing he is with him.


Ooh, if you have other supernaturals, yeah, a Euthonatos assasin would be perfect. Though youd have to convince it that the true brujah is an affront to the wheel while you arent.
I'm a Ventrue Prince. Convincing others to do what I want is easy. Actually finding this kind of assassin is the hard part.


Werewolves are good.

With fortitude I wouldnt touch anything that doesnt do aggravated damage, and even then I'd be worried. You know any abyss mystics? Hungry shades would help immensley, even tho they only do lethal. I do not, but a known associate of his does. She's MIA though. I'm going to try a diplomatic approach with the wolves.


If you could start a rumor about brujah being about, it might draw him into an ambush. True Brujah HATE brujah with a mighty passion. Like, darkages tremere tzmisce hatred.

I'll add that to the list of ways to draw him out.

[McStabbington]

The same way you win any fight: you make the bad guy play your game rather than play his. A Trujah isn't that different from a standard Brujah, except less likely to bring riff raff to the party, which is preferable for a Camarilla Prince anyway.

Look, time travel is nice and all, but it doesn't mean anything that much different than any normal Brujah: they're big tough line fighters, but they're never going to come at you laterally, they're always going to be relying heavily on blood, and if they can't hit it with an axe or inspire a mob to blow it up, they've got nothing. By contrast, you can turn his greatest allies against him with a carefully-chosen phrase, you have the entire resources of your Clan behind you, and you have the Camarilla itself behind that.

Long story short, call a blood hunt on him, have your Toreador friends go mind-sift some of his allies until they can tell you what he values most (there has to be something; Trujah are never whimsical), and then capture it and hold it hostage. Then arm a SWAT geam with six or seven RPG's and have at the fellow when he enters the clearing you told him to show up at. If that doesn't finish him, it'll at least soften him up for the Justiciar who is coming to defend the integrity of the Camarilla.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Your words inspire me, McStabbington. Our group plays this coming Sunday, and I will be putting some of these ideas to the test. It may take several sessions for my plans to come to fruition, and our inevitable confrontation to take place, but I have greater confidence due to the assistance of the playground.