Artificer's Item Creation feat - how far does it go?

[ijon]

Alright, hypothetical scenario here. I'm an artificer who just got Craft Wand. I'm running a little homebrew, so I got this at level 5. I've had enough time to pick up a couple feats. I wanna stick some Scorching Ray spells into wands for some hardcore blasting action.

Gonna go from the very bottom here:

0) I need a UMD 23 check to get this thing made, right? If I'm off-base here, then everything past this is pointless.

1) Can I metamagic the spell up as an Artificer when crafting, before it hits the wand itself? For example, Empowered Scorching Ray? If not, then there goes my plans.

2) Do I actually need to *know* the metamagic feats as an Artificer when crafting, or is the UMD check enough? Could I get away with an Empowered Scorching Ray despite not having taken Empower Spell?

3) Does the UMD check get any harder from metamagic? I know caster level doesn't necessarily increase, but would I need to hit a UMD 27 check with Empowered Scorching Ray?

3) Is the adjusted spell level used as the wand limit? Would a Maximized Scorching Ray (adjusted level 5) fit on a wand?

4) Does Arcane Thesis, Easy Metamagic, etc work for metamagic when crafting?

5) Can I use a Metamagic Rod during crafting? And if so, just one, right?

6) Assuming all of this, how many rocks would fall on me for taking Arcane Thesis and Easy Metamagic (Maximize), and making a Energy Substituted (sonic, -1) Invisible (-1) Transdimensional (+0) Bending (+0) Forceful (+0) Empowered (+1) Split (+1) Fell Draining (+1) Maximized (+1) Twinned (rod) Scorching Ray wand?

[Elxir_Breauer]

A little more info would be nice here.

Are you playing in 3.5, Pathfinder (you mentioned homebrew and there's a very good version out there for PF), 3.P?
How lenient is your GM on rules clarification?

The Item Creation Rules http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm tell me nothing about the ability to add Metamagic to a Wand or the like, so that's likely up to the GM to determine. From what I've read here on the boards, there does seem to be some basis in the rules for doing so, however. I would skim through the search results on Magic Item Metamagic for more info.

For what it's worth, as a GM I would allow it, using the modified spell level for the cap on a metamagic spell placed in a wand.
Also, I'm a little more strict on the wording of certain things like Arcane Thesis and Easy Metamagic. I'd probably say their effect is on the overall level modification, rather than individual metamagics applied, and no modification can be reduced below +0 (except in the case of things that normally reduce the spell level, which remain unchanged).

[ZamielVanWeber]

AFAIK you can apply any metamagic when you make the wand. As long as the spell level does not change you are fine. This is probably something you should discuss with your DM, since a wand of twinned, empowered, maximized Scorching Ray should not cost the same as a wand of Scorching Ray.

Edit: for clarity' sake lemme add some detail. Wands go off of spell level, not spell slot to cast it in. A twinned Scorching Ray is a 2nd level spell, same as Scorching Ray, and thus costs the same to make. Since your UMD checks to craft the wand go off of spell level... well...

[ijon]

Are you playing in 3.5, Pathfinder (you mentioned homebrew and there's a very good version out there for PF), 3.P?
How lenient is your GM on rules clarification?
3.5e, and the homebrew is mainly adjustments to the Artificer class. Remove infusions, remove the Metamagic Spell Trigger/Completion feats, remove the bonus feats, add a crapton of ways to reduce crafting costs, and make crafting feats come earlier. Also some stuff involving Fabricate. The Item Creation feat is unchanged.


The Item Creation Rules (can't link yet) tell me nothing about the ability to add Metamagic to a Wand or the like, so that's likely up to the GM to determine. From what I've read here on the boards, there does seem to be some basis in the rules for doing so, however. I would skim through the search results on Magic Item Metamagic for more info.

I never really found anything conclusive. And I didn't find anything at all regarding the artificer's Item Creation feat and metamagic - hell, google it now and this is the first result. So... yeah.

If we go by strict RAW, a metamagicked spell is still the same level as the original spell despite the increased spell slot (barring Heighten Spell), so for the purposes of crafting, metamagic changes nothing.

But that's utterly ridiculous. One Twinned Split Ray Maximized Empowered Enervation wand later... yes, it'd be adjusted to be 15th level normally, but it fits on a wand just fine! That can't be right.

And if we go by strict RAW, there's nothing saying that the Artificer has to actually have the metamagic feat to make a UMD check for a metamagicked spell when crafting. And if we use the "metamagic doesn't affect crafting level" interpretation, that would lead to an Artificer just being able to load every single beneficial metamagic out there onto his wands, scrolls, and magic items to steamroll anything and everything forever. Even assuming you use the adjusted spell slot for crafting, Arcane Thesis and Easy Metamagic allows for silly things, like that 10-metamagic wand of mine.

But I don't know every rule ever published for 3.5. So something might've slipped by me that would make this situation less absurd.



Really, I just want to know how far I can go with this; I don't intend to actually use everything 3.5 lets me get away with. Trivializing a game tends to ruin its fun for everyone involved.

[Jeff the Green]

Alright, hypothetical scenario here. I'm an artificer who just got Craft Wand. I'm running a little homebrew, so I got this at level 5. I've had enough time to pick up a couple feats. I wanna stick some Scorching Ray spells into wands for some hardcore blasting action.

Gonna go from the very bottom here:

0) I need a UMD 23 check to get this thing made, right? If I'm off-base here, then everything past this is pointless.

Yes.


1) Can I metamagic the spell up as an Artificer when crafting, before it hits the wand itself? For example, Empowered Scorching Ray? If not, then there goes my plans.

Yes.


2) Do I actually need to *know* the metamagic feats as an Artificer when crafting, or is the UMD check enough? Could I get away with an Empowered Scorching Ray despite not having taken Empower Spell?

Yes.


3) Does the UMD check get any harder from metamagic? I know caster level doesn't necessarily increase, but would I need to hit a UMD 27 check with Empowered Scorching Ray?


Yes, CL does increase because the spell level increases.


3) Is the adjusted spell level used as the wand limit? Would a Maximized Scorching Ray (adjusted level 5) fit on a wand?

Yes; no. See above. You could use a scepter (Lost Empires of Faerun), though.


4) Does Arcane Thesis, Easy Metamagic, etc work for metamagic when crafting?

Easy/Practical Metamagic don't. Arcane thesis might, but probably doesn't. Plus you don't qualify for it unless you take three levels of wizard.


5) Can I use a Metamagic Rod during crafting? And if so, just one, right?

No. They specify "casting" the spell.


6) Assuming all of this, how many rocks would fall on me for taking Arcane Thesis and Easy Metamagic (Maximize), and making a Energy Substituted (sonic, -1) Invisible (-1) Transdimensional (+0) Bending (+0) Forceful (+0) Empowered (+1) Split (+1) Fell Draining (+1) Maximized (+1) Twinned (rod) Scorching Ray wand?

None, because it doesn't work.

[Elxir_Breauer]

Those are some pretty significant changes. AFAICT you need the Metamagic feat to apply it to whatever spell you're making an item with, just as if you were metamagicing the spell normally. As with nearly everything else in the feats section of nearly every book on the subject, you need the feat to use its effects, except in certain corner cases as with virtual feats (which is a whole other can of worms that I know hardly anything about).

The Artificer's Item Creation (Ex) ability is not a feat however, but a Class Ability allowing it to be treated as a Spellcaster of equal level for purposes of making Magic Items with special rules applied specific to the Artificer class.

Edit: I suppose looking up all the relevant feats would help rather than trying to go from memory on something like this. Good call, Jeff!