Help needed with a 3.5 cleric

[Klorox]

Hey everybody. I'm new to 3.5. I played a ton of 1e, 2e, a bit of 3.0, took a long hiatus, and now I love 5e.

Anyway, I just joined a 3.5 game. I want to play a character who can handle himself in combat, but who is a primary spellcaster.

When I quit 3e, I played a dwarf cleric of Haela Brightaxe (Luck/War). I had a ton of fun with this character.

Is that optimal?

Is there a better way to build a fun cleric?

I have the option of using 32 point buy for stats, or rolling in front of the DM (4d6, drop the lowest).

I was reading clerics are a little MAD. What stats are most important for a cleric? If I use point buy, what is a good stat array with 32 points?

IIRC, the cleric I played had a low CHA, and couldn't care less about turning undead (she'd rather slice them in half with her greatsword).

If I switch to a different type of Cleric, I think I'd like to still be a dwarf (or human). I'm not a fan of elves. A cleric similar to Durkon would be cool with me too.


I know it's a lot of questions, but I'm unfamilar with this system.

Thank you so much for helping me!

[GilesTheCleric]

Hey everybody. I'm new to 3.5. I played a ton of 1e, 2e, a bit of 3.0, took a long hiatus, and now I love 5e. Welcome back to 3.X! Not much has changed from 3.0 to 3.5.

Anyway, I just joined a 3.5 game. I want to play a character who can handle himself in combat, but who is a primary spellcaster.

When I quit 3e, I played a dwarf cleric of Haela Brightaxe (Luck/War). I had a ton of fun with this character.

Is that optimal?
That's a perfectly fine way to build. If your goal is maximizing your weapon damage output, there's additional tricks you can apply with books outside of core, but even just core can be fine for melee.


Is there a better way to build a fun cleric?What kind of role do you like to play in the party? The cleric can be any of them (ranged attacker, melee attacker, spell support, rogue, etc) with a high degree of proficiency. What do you most enjoy doing in your games?


I have the option of using 32 point buy for stats, or rolling in front of the DM (4d6, drop the lowest).

I was reading clerics are a little MAD. What stats are most important for a cleric? If I use point buy, what is a good stat array with 32 points?Point buy will net you a reliably strong character, while rolling really only makes your character more average across the board (not something that's useful for clerics). Clerics are wis-SAD, though you could build them with a str or cha secondary (or even primary) focus. Str of course is War Domain+Power attack; Cha is Divine Metamagic+casting. Zen Archery and Intuitive Attack allow for you to need only wis and con in your build, though. You can even be a powerful wis-SAD melee combatant by focusing on the Ice Axe spell if you don't want to play a LG character.

(Edit: A good 32 PB could be: str 8, dex 8, con 14, int 8, wis 18, cha 8. That leaves you with 10 points to spend as you please -- str or cha are probably good choices, but a build could be constructed around any of the other stats as well. You could even go flat 10s, 14 con, 15 wis [with level-up increases into wis] and still end up doing just fine. The trick to that statline is avoiding spells that require saves and focusing on buffs and BFC.)


IIRC, the cleric I played had a low CHA, and couldn't care less about turning undead (she'd rather slice them in half with her greatsword).

If I switch to a different type of Cleric, I think I'd like to still be a dwarf (or human). I'm not a fan of elves. A cleric similar to Durkon would be cool with me too.Turning undead is one of the weaker uses of the turn undead class feature. You'll find more frequent use from it if you pick up a devotion feat (Complete Champion), or any of the other [divine] feats that run on turn uses (like the perennially-popular Divine Metamagic).


I know it's a lot of questions, but I'm unfamilar with this system.

Thank you so much for helping me!

No worries! How familiar are you with book abbreviations? Will you want sources for things folks mention? How familiar are you with 3.X terminology? (Edit: what book access do you have/ are allowed? Complete Champion, Complete Divine, and Spell Compendium are the most usefully-dense books outside of core.)

[Klorox]

Wow, thank you for such a kind and fast response!

I want my role to be a support caster and melee combatant. This makes me think my stats should be STR > CON > WIS (making sure there's enough WIS to cast a spell of that level, of course), CHA > DEX > INT. But I think I'd be okay with DEX as long as it's 10, and I could probably survive with CHA and INT lower than 10 (but if it's an option, a higher CHA would be nice too).

I'm totally unfamiliar with sourcebooks, but I think my library has most of them. I am using the SRD as my rulebook right now. My DM says he's pretty lenient with what's allowed, but I need to see if I can get a copy.

Thanks again!

[GilesTheCleric]

Now, when you say support caster, you mean out of combat? So, utility spells like Zone of Truth, Scrying, Divination, Plane Shift, etc?

The statline doesn't matter too much (15 wis is the minimum to cast all spells with level-up points; I'd still recommend 18 especially in 32 pb). 14 con is probably plenty since you have heavy armor, and 16 str is more efficient than 18 in terms of point buy, while still being acceptable (and can be raised via race). If you want to use a physical weapon to hit foes, you've got a few choices that are easy to do:

1) take the Intuitive Attack (BoED 44) feat to replace your reliance on str with wis (requires LG) for attack, and focus on:
a) debuffing with your melee attacks
b) getting a whole lot of attacks per turn
c) crit-fishing
d) power attack damage via high strength anyway (if you expect to cast spells that require saves)
e) take Divine Might (CW 106) and pump cha instead of str, then power attack
f) combine a-d

2) focus on Ice Axe (SC 118) for your damage instead of a mundane weapon and one or more of
a) debuff
b) deal huge damage with metamagic
c) deal huge damage with CL increases
d) combine a-c

3) ignore Intuitive Attack and pump str for both to-hit and damage
a) power attack for lots of damage
b) use other special combat actions like trip AND plenty of damage

4) focus on buff spells and
a) combine with power attack
b) combine with other party members
c) combine a-b

5) focus on battlefield control (BFC) and
a) go in after the enemies are debilitated with any of options 1-4
b) watch your party mop up

6) build into smites and buff cha for effective power attacking
a) combine with Divine Might for lots of damage
b) combine with Battle Blessing to gish even harder
c) combine a-b

7) prepare fights ahead of time by
a) using scrying/ divination to determine which fights you want to take
b) using scrying/ divination to prepare for fights differently
c) using augury/ divination/ wall of X to prepare the battlefield in your favour ahead of time
d) any combination of 1-6 and 7a-7c.

Now if none of those sound like you want to do, then there's plenty of other ways to play, but they'll require going beyond the easy choices and doing a bit more specific research.

Books: Book of Exalted Deeds (BoED), Spell Compendium (SC), Complete Warrior (CW).

Edit: It might be a good idea for you to have a general understanding of clerics so that you can make a more informed decision by reading through a handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0) (also (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?450575-The-Cleric-Handbook) these (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10961)).

[Klorox]

The alternatives to using STR sound pretty cool, but I'd still suffer in actually carrying and wearing heavy armor, wouldn't I?

I'm not sure what I really meant with the support thing. I guess buffing the party (bless?) and running in.

[Klorox]

Are there alternatives to the basic dwarf in the PHB?

I'm pretty sure I want to go dwarf, unless I totally change my character concept. If I did, I'd probably go for a spellcastery sun worshipping human or Aasimar.

[GilesTheCleric]

Str does not affect the armour you wear, beyond your ability to carry it. Fullplate weighs 50lbs, and with str 10 your max load is 100lb. You'll move at 20 ft per turn instead of the normal 30, but there's spells, class features, items, and weapons that get around that.

You could support the party in combat (with BFC spells), or out of combat (with things like Zone of Truth), so I wondered which was more important to you.

Keep in mind during all of these discussions that clerics are not limited to what you decide you want to do. Because a 3.5 cleric has access to its entire spell list (1100+ spells) and can change the spells prepared at the beginning of each day, you can fulfill any role you want with some advance notice. Many spells are versatile enough to let you fill multiple roles with a single spell, meaning you can be ready for many situations with the same prepared spells.

Picking out feats and your intended role will only help to make you better at it, and does not exclude you from doing anything else (also to a high degree of competence).

Edit: There's dwarf subraces scattered about in many books; Races of Faerun (RoF) has a good number of them; there's also general subraces that any race can have in UA (Unearthed Arcana). Gold Dwarf (RoF 11) is my recommendation for a subrace, because it synergizes very well with a melee-oriented cleric via Gold Dwarf Dweomersmith (RoF 163). Dwarfs also have benefits for unarmed builds, but it sounds like that's not the route you're going.

Feel free to use the edit post button if you have more to add.

[ZamielVanWeber]

There are a lot of dwarf variants actually. If you go onto the Master Race List III there is a full list of dwarves you can pick from. I personally recommend the Dream Dwarf from Races of Stone.

[Klorox]

Str does not affect the armour you wear, beyond your ability to carry it. Fullplate weighs 50lbs, and with str 10 your max load is 100lb. You'll move at 20 ft per turn instead of the normal 30, but there's spells, class features, items, and weapons that get around that.

You could support the party in combat (with BFC spells), or out of combat (with things like Zone of Truth), so I wondered which was more important to you.

Keep in mind during all of these discussions that clerics are not limited to what you decide you want to do. Because a 3.5 cleric has access to its entire spell list (1100+ spells) and can change the spells prepared at the beginning of each day, you can fulfill any role you want with some advance notice. Many spells are versatile enough to let you fill multiple roles with a single spell, meaning you can be ready for many situations with the same prepared spells.

Picking out feats and your intended role will only help to make you better at it, and does not exclude you from doing anything else (also to a high degree of competence).

Wow, so I could pull off a Cleric of Pelor or Moradin, have a STR of 10 and use my WIS *instead* of STR and be just as good in combat *and* spellcasting as if I had a high (say, starting 18) in both?

That's amazing!

Is there anything that makes intuitive attack and ice axe better or worse than each other?

[GilesTheCleric]

Wow, so I could pull off a Cleric of Pelor or Moradin, have a STR of 10 and use my WIS *instead* of STR and be just as good in combat *and* spellcasting as if I had a high (say, starting 18) in both?

That's amazing!

3.5 is my favourite edition because of the breadth of content and the complexity of options it provides. I think that you could build a cleric to deal damage from any of the six stats (int might be a bit tricky, but I think I know a way; con is easy to do but cheesy). It really allows you to build any kind of character you can dream up, provided you have sufficient system mastery (or know the right questions to ask on a place like the playground, where there's myriad folks who all know the system intimately).

[ZamielVanWeber]

Wow, so I could pull off a Cleric of Pelor or Moradin, have a STR of 10 and use my WIS *instead* of STR and be just as good in combat *and* spellcasting as if I had a high (say, starting 18) in both?

That's amazing!

Intuitive Attack applies only to attack rolls. Your damage will be lower, but being a cleric lets you easily fix that. It also only applies to simple weapons, but that is not as big a problem.

[Klorox]

There are a lot of dwarf variants actually. If you go onto the Master Race List III there is a full list of dwarves you can pick from. I personally recommend the Dream Dwarf from Races of Stone.

Where can I find this master race list?

[Xervous]

The alternatives to using STR sound pretty cool, but I'd still suffer in actually carrying and wearing heavy armor, wouldn't I?

I'm not sure what I really meant with the support thing. I guess buffing the party (bless?) and running in.

In combat your actions are valuable. Most buffs will be applied at the start of the day (long duration) or when you anticipate combat around the corner (Hello dungeon archway, now is a good time to buff). When things are toe to toe with the kobolds, mind flayers, or cultists of demogorgon you'll be better served throwing out a spell that severely hinders your opponents instead of one that will give your party members a little boost (exceptions exists for amazing situational spells).

As for carrying load that only is a primary worry if your dm is super strict over just how much you're carrying. Though here's another thing to remember: the penalties for heavy armor and carrying lots of stuff are quite similar and do not stack. Carrying a heavy load while wearing full plate imposes no penalties compared to just wearing full plate.

[Klorox]

Are there any domains I should be on the look out for?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Where can I find this master race list?
Here: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1281.0. Sorry I cannot create a proper link. It is difficult to link from my phone. Go ogling "Master Race List III" will also give the result.

[Klorox]

Here: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1281.0. Sorry I cannot create a proper link. It is difficult to link from my phone. Go ogling "Master Race List III" will also give the result.

Thanks!

Just glancing here: how is it an optimizer wouldn't just choose lesser aasimar? +2 WIS and CHA? No penalties! Wow!

[Klorox]

In combat your actions are valuable. Most buffs will be applied at the start of the day (long duration) or when you anticipate combat around the corner (Hello dungeon archway, now is a good time to buff). When things are toe to toe with the kobolds, mind flayers, or cultists of demogorgon you'll be better served throwing out a spell that severely hinders your opponents instead of one that will give your party members a little boost (exceptions exists for amazing situational spells).

As for carrying load that only is a primary worry if your dm is super strict over just how much you're carrying. Though here's another thing to remember: the penalties for heavy armor and carrying lots of stuff are quite similar and do not stack. Carrying a heavy load while wearing full plate imposes no penalties compared to just wearing full plate.
Thanks.

It's funny: I always loved dwarves anyway, but I thought it was cool that they're not slowed by heavy armor.

But that means they move 20, which is the same as a tall race in heavy armor. Haha.

[Klorox]

Intuitive Attack applies only to attack rolls. Your damage will be lower, but being a cleric lets you easily fix that. It also only applies to simple weapons, but that is not as big a problem.

Interesting.

This makes me more likely to take it if I choose to be a casting Cleric, rather than a tanky Cleric.

The caster would still wear heavy armor, but wouldn't be too as concerned with actual damage output.

[Xervous]

Thanks!

Just glancing here: how is it an optimizer wouldn't just choose lesser aasimar? +2 WIS and CHA? No penalties! Wow!

You need to be conscious to play your character. A constant rain of books to the face might knock you out.

This Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1238) has a bunch of nice pointers for clerics: feats, spell selection, and domains.

Reading off the top ranked goodies...
Planning domain gets you Extend Spell (Prereq for Persistent Spell, and it's a good feat by itself)
Pride domain lets you reroll nat 1s on saving throws (once per saving throw). How do you like the sound of not dying?
Undeath domain: free extra turning, amazing if you're feeding TU attempts into lots of devotion feats or Divine Metamagic

Of course there are many other spectacular choices, some of which are better suited to enabling niche cleric builds.

[GilesTheCleric]

Is there anything that makes intuitive attack and ice axe better or worse than each other?

Intuitive attack will have lower damage output, but requires less investment. Ice Axe can return effectively any amount of damage you want (from good to +yes) depending on how much you want to invest in it (read: how much cheese you're willing to use).


Are there any domains I should be on the look out for?

Domains have both a granted power and small list of spells you can cast from. The spells lists of most of them are either repeats of spells you already have; contain one or two amazing spells that make them worth taking; or have some neat, flavourful spells that can help define your character. I would focus on the granted power for now, and think about flavourful spells over amazing spells (because to be honest, clerics already have all the amazing spells they could ever want). Here's a short list of domains I have marked as having either a good granted power, or a good power+spells:

Take some of these with a grain of salt; many qualify as "good" because for clerics they're free, and some grant feats that are pre-reqs for Prestige Classes (PrCs).

Bestial BoVD 80
Craft SC 272
Darkness SC 272
Deathbound LM 60
Destiny RoD 163
Domination SC 273
Dragon Below ECS 106
Dream SC 273
Dwarf SC 273
Drow SC 273
Elf SC 273
Fate SC 274
Gluttony SC 274
Hatred LoM 207
Hunger SC 275
Hunt Drag342 89
Incarnum MoI 96
Inquisition SC 275
Knowledge PHB 187
Luck PHB 187
Magic PHB 188
Meditation ECS 107
Metal SC 276
Night Drag342 89
Oracle CD 140
Planning SC 278
Pleasure BoED 87
Portal (alt) Und 53
Pride SC 287
Revered Ancestor FoE 149
Rune SC 279
Seafolk Sw 110
Shadow ECS 108
Slime SC 280
Time SC 281
Travel PHB 188
Trickery PHB 188
Undeath SC 281
War PHB 189

Frankly, the PHB ones (bolded) are all pretty great. Most of the others are just good if you're doing something tricky with your build. Pride and Planning are two of the best outside of core, generally.

[Klorox]

Intuitive attack will have lower damage output, but requires less investment. Ice Axe can return effectively any amount of damage you want (from good to +yes) depending on how much you want to invest in it (read: how much cheese you're willing to use).



Domains have both a granted power and small list of spells you can cast from. The spells lists of most of them are either repeats of spells you already have; contain one or two amazing spells that make them worth taking; or have some neat, flavourful spells that can help define your character. I would focus on the granted power for now, and think about flavourful spells over amazing spells (because to be honest, clerics already have all the amazing spells they could ever want). Here's a short list of domains I have marked as having either a good granted power, or a good power+spells:

Take some of these with a grain of salt; many qualify as "good" because for clerics they're free, and some grant feats that are pre-reqs for Prestige Classes (PrCs).

Bestial BoVD 80
Craft SC 272
Darkness SC 272
Deathbound LM 60
Destiny RoD 163
Domination SC 273
Dragon Below ECS 106
Dream SC 273
Dwarf SC 273
Drow SC 273
Elf SC 273
Fate SC 274
Gluttony SC 274
Hatred LoM 207
Hunger SC 275
Hunt Drag342 89
Incarnum MoI 96
Inquisition SC 275
Knowledge PHB 187
Luck PHB 187
Magic PHB 188
Meditation ECS 107
Metal SC 276
Night Drag342 89
Oracle CD 140
Planning SC 278
Pleasure BoED 87
Portal (alt) Und 53
Pride SC 287
Revered Ancestor FoE 149
Rune SC 279
Seafolk Sw 110
Shadow ECS 108
Slime SC 280
Time SC 281
Travel PHB 188
Trickery PHB 188
Undeath SC 281
War PHB 189

Frankly, the PHB ones (bolded) are all pretty great. Most of the others are just good if you're doing something tricky with your build. Pride and Planning are two of the best outside of core, generally.

Thank you so much.

Travel and Luck really appeal to me, but Fharlangn is the only deity with both, and he doesn't seem very interesting to me.

I'll need to check out some other sources to see if I can find a deity with both.

Or I can go back to my STR based dwarf of Haela Brightaxe. :)

[nedz]

Travel and Luck really appeal to me, but Fharlangn is the only deity with both, and he doesn't seem very interesting to me.
That depends upon your pantheon, and you can always play a Cleric of a concept.

I'll need to check out some other sources to see if I can find a deity with both.
Here you go
Forgotton Realms
Oghma (F&P p052) (DR323 p65) N Charm, Balance, Knowledge, Luck, Pride, Travel, Trickery
Tymora (F&P p077) (DR323 p65)(DR355 p26) CG Chaos, Generosity, Good, Luck, Protection, Sloth, Travel

Asgard
Hermod (D&D p182) CN Chaos, Luck, Travel

Olympic
Hermes (D&D p123) CG Chaos, Good, Luck, Travel, Trickery
Tyche (D&D p130) N Luck, Protection, Travel

Halfling
Bandobaris (F&P p138)(RotW p53) N Halfling, Luck, Travel, Trickery

Sandstorm
Aurifar (Sand p45) N Fire, Luck, Summer, Sun, Travel

Also Taiia – Creator Aspect (D&D p203) but this one has a large bucket of domains.

Ed:
found three more, no references for these I'm afraid - and I'm not sure Sovereign Host counts, but apparently you can worship the entire pantheon.

Aasterinian CN Chaos, Charm, Dragon, Illusion, Luck, Trade, Travel, Trickery

Sovereign Host (pantheon) NG Air, Animal, Artifice, Celerity, Chaos, Charm, Commerce, Community, Competition, Creation, Earth, Family, Feast, Fire, Force, Glory, Good, Healing, Knowledge, Law, Liberation, Life, Luck, Magic, Metal, Mind, Oracle, Pact, Plant, Protection, Retribution, Sin-Pride, Spell, Strength, Sun, Trade, Travel, War, Warforged, Wealth, Weather

Tymora CG Chaos, Good, Luck, Protection, Sin-Sloth, Travel

[GilesTheCleric]

There's plenty of options in D&D; you'll have to know what setting you're in and which deities your GM allows.


CD 109, 111, DaD 58, 67, Drag350 69, PHB 32, 107 Fharlanghn Celerity, Luck, Protection, Travel, Weather, Water
Drag283 56 God of Revelry Chaos, Luck
RoS 65 Goliath Pantheon Animal, Death, Destruction, Earth, Fire, Healing, Knowledge, Luck, Magic, Plant, Protection, Strength, Sun, Travel, Trickery, War, Water
FaP 119, FRCS 238, FRCSWE 6, DA5 104, RoD 162 Haela Brightaxe Chaos, Destiny, Dwarf, Good, Luck, War
FaP 142, FRCS 236, FRCSWE 7, DA5 104 Hathor Family, Fate, Good, Moon
DaD 100, 120, Drag283 34 Hera Community, Nobility, Healing, Luck, Protection, Strength, Trickery
DaD 100, 122 Hercules Chaos, Good, Luck, Strength
DaD 100, 124, Drag283 34 Hermes Chaos, Good, Luck, Magic, Travel, Trickery
DaD 164, 182 Hermod Chaos, Luck, Travel
DaD 100, 125, Drag283 34 Hestia Community, Good, Luck, Healing, Protection
Drag287 36 Hypnatia Law, Luck, Protection, Strength
LGD 84, LGG 172, CD 121, 122 Istus Celerity, Chaos, Destiny, Knowledge, Law, Luck, Mind, Oracle
Drag290 48 Jarilo Chaos, Luck, Plant, Protection
Drag290 48 Jurate Healing, Luck, Travel, Water
Drag286 15 Khnum Good, Earth, Luck, Water
Ss 47 Ki Animal, Luck, Plant
LGD 96, LGG 174, LGCS 11 Kord Chaos, Competition, Courage, Good, Luck, Nobility, Strength
LGD 98, LGG 174 Kurell Chaos, Greed, Luck, Madness, Trickery
LGD 99 Kuroth Chaos, Luck, Trickery
CD 109, 113, DaD 58, 79, DotF 93, 94, RotD 48, RotD WE, MM1 Errata 6 Kurtulmak Evil, Law, Luck, Trickery, Kobold
Drag283 35 Lugh Knowledge, Luck, Magic, Sun
CW 147 Lyris Fate, Luck, War
RoS 66 Manethak Animal, Knowledge, Luck
Drag329 36, 42, Ss 47 Marduk Air, Good, Fire, Law, Luck, Protection, War
FaP 222, FRCS 234, 246, RoD 162 Mask City, Darkness, Evil, Luck, Trickery
Drag359 121 Mellifleur Death, Evil, Luck, Magic
Drag290 48 Meness Luck, Travel, Trickery, War
CW 147 Nadirech Chaos, Evil, Luck, Trickery
Ss 47 Nanna-Sin Chaos, Luck, Good
LGD 123 Nazarn Luck, War
Drag283 38 No Cha Knowledge, Luck, Trickery
LGD 127, LGG 177 Norebo Chaos, Competition, Courage, Luck, Trickery
FaP 222, FRCS 234, 247, Drag280 30 Oghma Charm, Knowledge, Luck, Travel, Trickery
CD 109, 116, DaD 58, 88, PHB 32, 108, RoD 162 Olidammara Celerity, City, Chaos, Luck, Mind, Trickery
FoE 149, 31, ECS 69, 35, PGtE 139 Olladra Feast, Good, Healing, Luck, Pride
DaD 100 Olympic Pantheon Air, Animal, Artifice, Chaos, Charm, Community, Creation, Death, Destruction, Earth, Evil, Fire, Good, Healing, Knowledge, Law, Luck, Madness, Magic, Nobility, Plant, Protection, Strength, Sun, Travel, Trickery, War, Water, Weather
Drag350 89 Oversoul Knowledge, Luck, Mind, Strength
Gw 79, 86 Phaant Evil, Law, Luck
Drag287 36 Phantasia Chaos, Luck, Good, Destruction
DaD 137 Pharonic Pantheon Air, Artifice, Chaos, Community, Creation, Destruction, Earth, Glory, Good, Healing, Knowledge, Law, Luck, Magic, Nobility, Plant, Protection, Repose, Rune, Strength, Sun, Travel, Trickery, War, Water
LGD 136, LGG 180, CD 121, 123 Procan Animal, Chaos, Luck, Travel, Water, Weather
LGD 139, LGG 181 Ralishaz Chaos, Destruction, Liberation, Luck, Madness, Oracle
LGD 144, LGG 182 Rudd Chaos, Competition, Destiny, Good, Luck
Drag283 38 Shan Hai Ching Air, Luck, Water
DCS 128, DCS 45 Shinare Law, Luck, Travel
RoD 75 Soorinek Evil, Luck, Trickery
Drag290 48 Svantovit Divination, Luck, Plant, War
DaD 203 Taiia (creator aspect) Air, Chaos, Earth, Good, Healing, Knowledge, Law, Luck, Magic, Protection, Sun, Travel
Gw 79, 87 Tephaneron Chaos, Luck, Strength, War
RoS 20 Thautam Earth, Luck, Magic
DaD 136, 156, Drag283 36, Ss 47 Thoth Knowledge, Luck, Magic, Travel
DaD 100, 130 Tyche Luck, Protection, Travel
FaP 222, FRCS 234, 253 Tymora Chaos, Good, Luck, Protection, Travel
Drag283 39 Uller Animals, Chaos, Luck, Travel
LGD 175 Uvot Community, Creation, Good, Knowledge, Luck, Plant, Protection
FaP 123, FRCS 238, FRCSWE 12 Vergadain Dwarf, Luck, Trade, Trickery
Drag290 48 Volos Animal, Luck, Plant, Travel
Drag358 89 Xipetotec Earth, Law, Luck, Plant
Drag283 37 Xochipilli Knowledge, Luck, Trickery
LGD 196, Drag298 87 Zinzerena Chaos, Luck, Trickery

Edit: swordsage'd.

[Troacctid]

Thanks!

Just glancing here: how is it an optimizer wouldn't just choose lesser aasimar? +2 WIS and CHA? No penalties! Wow!

Lesser Aasimar use a variant rule that won't be in place in every game. The variant precludes the existence of the standard Aasimar, so if your DM wishes to use the original version, the lesser version should be unavailable.

That said, if they are available, they are certainly very strong, and they definitely exceed the normal benchmarks for a LA +0 race.

[Klorox]

My bad, guys.

The game is in Greyhawk.

The DM says he's pretty forgiving though. I guess I just don't know how I'd really pull off a Cleric of Fharlangn.

"Hey guys, I'm going to go with you because you're on a journey, and my God likes that kind of stuff"

"The power of Fharlangn sends to undead abominations away"

[LudicSavant]

Thanks!

Just glancing here: how is it an optimizer wouldn't just choose lesser aasimar?

Because things like Humans, Deep Dwarves, Strongheart Halflings, Whisper Gnomes, Illumians, and Warforged exist.

Lesser Aasimar are indeed one of the good races, but they shouldn't be making a strong race like a Deep Dwarf (from the Monster Manual) feel bad with their +3 to most important saves (+4 for Fort) and bag of other useful goodies (like Stonecunning or Darkvision that's longer than other people's Darkvision). Take a look at that if you're interested in playing a dwarf besides the one in the PHB.

Dwarves can also take feats like Ancestral Knowledge, which is handy with Knowledge Devotion.

[nedz]

My bad, guys.

The game is in Greyhawk.

The DM says he's pretty forgiving though. I guess I just don't know how I'd really pull off a Cleric of Fharlangn.

"Hey guys, I'm going to go with you because you're on a journey, and my God likes that kind of stuff"

"The power of Fharlangn sends to undead abominations away"

Well the Sandstorm and Halfling options may still be open, though the last one is possibly not ideal for combat.

Still, Fharlangn:
I do find the concept of this god a bit flat, but there are options.
You just need to find a profession which involves travelling: Gypsy, Trader, Merchant, Guide, Tax Collector, Salesman, Stamp Collector, ..., Hmmph

"You're going where ? Well it looks like we are heading the same way, may as well tag along for mutual protection"

"By the power of Fharlangn I grant these undead a ticket on the next train to oblivion"

It's hard isn't it.

[Xervous]

To snag a quote from Wikipedia...

Fharlanghn insists that everyone travel in order to discover and learn new things. He urges people to look to the horizon for inspiration.

As a cleric of the god of Travel, Horizons, and Distance... where would you reasonably expect to find lots of travel that takes you across vast spans of terrain to multitudes of exotic environments, spelunking through dungeons and exploring the latest ruin or forest you happened to come across? Oh right, as part of an adventuring party! You're the traveling cleric, your party is the vehicle your ride to future travel and exploration helping everyone within it along in the pursuit of similar goals. Big F is telling you it's important to go out and see the world. Here you are helping others do it too!

[SirNMN]

Interesting.

This makes me more likely to take it if I choose to be a casting Cleric, rather than a tanky Cleric.

The caster would still wear heavy armor, but wouldn't be too as concerned with actual damage output.

the other thing that is often missed is intuitive attack only works with simple weapons, you would to better to fight at range with zen archery,

[LudicSavant]

What level is your cleric?

[Klorox]

Intuitive Attack applies only to attack rolls. Your damage will be lower, but being a cleric lets you easily fix that. It also only applies to simple weapons, but that is not as big a problem.

What did you mean by "being a Cleric lets you easily fix that"?

[GilesTheCleric]

What did you mean by "being a Cleric lets you easily fix that"?

Clerics have a bevy of buffing spells that allow their damage to easily surpass that of other classes. Divine Might, Righteous Might, and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful are the "holy trinity" of buff spells, but there's more.

[Klorox]

What level is your cleric?

Level 4.

I'm stuck between lesser aasimar of Fharlanghn and dwarf of Haela Brightaxe.

They're radically different types of characters.

Fharlanghn Cleric would be more of a caster first, combat 2nd.

The Kaxanar (that's what clerics of Haela Brightaxe are called) is more of a buff herself up and charge into the fray kind of Cleric.

I have strong feelings towards both. On one hand, I think the dwarf would be more effective at this lower level. On the other, supporting the team Barbarian and bear shaped Druid as an aasimar Cleric doesn't steal any of their glory.

[Klorox]

Let's say I have a WIS of 20 and a STR of 13.

Would I be able to use the feats Intuitive Attack and Power Attack together (using WIS to hit, adding bonus damage from Power Attack)?

[Andezzar]

Yup, that works.

From level 7 onwards Divine Power also is a staple of the melee cleric. BAB of a fighter and +6 STR. With Divine Metamagic CD p. 80 (Persistent Spell CArc p. 81) you can even do that all day long.

@GilesTheCleric: are you sure it isn't Divine Favor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divineFavor.htm) in that damage buffing trinity?

[GilesTheCleric]

@GilesTheCleric: are you sure it isn't Divine Favor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divineFavor.htm) in that damage buffing trinity?

Yes, that's the one.

[Klorox]

Am I doing this correctly?

32 point buy, level 4

Lesser Aasimar Cleric of Fharlanghn (Travel and Luck)

60' dark vision

Languages: common, celestial

S 14
D 10
C 14
I 10
W 19
C 16

Skills (not adding any bonuses here): 14 total skill points

Concentration 7
Diplomacy 3
Know religion 1
Know planes 1
Spellcraft 1
Survival 1

+2 spot and listen (racial bonus)

Feats: I'm really unsure what to do here. Improved initiative was always a favorite of mine.

I plan on using a long spear, if that make any difference.

[GilesTheCleric]

I'm not going to check your point buy, but I'll assume you spent points, then added your racial mods, then added your +1 from level 4. Stats look like a good array; with a good cha like that you'll benefit more than others from investing in Devotion or [divine] feats (Complete Divine, Complete Champion, Libris Mortis).

The skills look good -- you've put 1 rank into each of the trained-only skills, which lets you make checks with them after buffing. Concentration is rightfully the highest one. Putting more points in diplomacy over spellcraft is your choice, and I see nothing wrong with that -- the only time you'll be using spellcraft without buffing it first is if you're attempting to dispel (not a very good use of an action), or trying to recognize what your foe has cast (important info, but they've already cast it, so... not much you can do).

Improved Initiative is never a waste of a feat, so no worries there. With a 14 strength you can still benefit from Power Attack (you're at 18 str after bull's strength, which is a +6 to damage on a 2h weapon, or more than that after power attack). If dragon magazine is open, Initiate of Fharlanghn (Drag342 51) gives you +10 base speed so you can be at 30' even in heavy armour, and also some more spells. Otherworldly (PGtF 41) or Human Heritage (source? the-site-that-shall-not-be-named is down) allow you to count as an outsider or human respectively, which affects some spells and other effects (enlarge person, alter self, polymorph, etc). Ability Enhancer (DC 91) gives you an extra +2 stat to your buffing spells (bull's strength for +6!). Scribe Scroll/ Craft Wondrous Item (PHB) are great for allowing you to have access to more spells on-demand (need to cure some poison right now but didn't prepare remove poison? No problem!). A [reserve] feat (CC, UA) can give you all-day spellcasting if you don't want to swing your sword. Most metamagic (lots of books; CAr, CM, and PHB have good ones) is good.

The choice of a weapon is a personal thing; some weapons are better than others, but I encourage you to pick whichever you like. The differences aren't that great.

[Andezzar]

Points are distributed correctly.

Intuitive Attack is nice for level 3. Nothing wrong with power attack.

If the DM allows Divine Metamagic, I would start the feat chain extend spell, persistent spell, DMM, add Extra Turning to taste.

Does the DM allow Flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm)? If so, you can get up to two more feats that way.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Given how feat hungry clerics can be I would recommend not taking Improved Initiative and instead using items to boost your initiative mod.

[Klorox]

Given how feat hungry clerics can be I would recommend not taking Improved Initiative and instead using items to boost your initiative mod.

What feats would you recommend?

[Klorox]

Points are distributed correctly.

Intuitive Attack is nice for level 3. Nothing wrong with power attack.

If the DM allows Divine Metamagic, I would start the feat chain extend spell, persistent spell, DMM, add Extra Turning to taste.

Does the DM allow Flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm)? If so, you can get up to two more feats that way.

The problem is I can't take both intuitive attack and power attack, since my BAB is 0 at level 1.

Thanks for the other feat suggestions.

[Klorox]

I'm not going to check your point buy, but I'll assume you spent points, then added your racial mods, then added your +1 from level 4. Stats look like a good array; with a good cha like that you'll benefit more than others from investing in Devotion or [divine] feats (Complete Divine, Complete Champion, Libris Mortis).

The skills look good -- you've put 1 rank into each of the trained-only skills, which lets you make checks with them after buffing. Concentration is rightfully the highest one. Putting more points in diplomacy over spellcraft is your choice, and I see nothing wrong with that -- the only time you'll be using spellcraft without buffing it first is if you're attempting to dispel (not a very good use of an action), or trying to recognize what your foe has cast (important info, but they've already cast it, so... not much you can do).

Improved Initiative is never a waste of a feat, so no worries there. With a 14 strength you can still benefit from Power Attack (you're at 18 str after bull's strength, which is a +6 to damage on a 2h weapon, or more than that after power attack). If dragon magazine is open, Initiate of Fharlanghn (Drag342 51) gives you +10 base speed so you can be at 30' even in heavy armour, and also some more spells. Otherworldly (PGtF 41) or Human Heritage (source? the-site-that-shall-not-be-named is down) allow you to count as an outsider or human respectively, which affects some spells and other effects (enlarge person, alter self, polymorph, etc). Ability Enhancer (DC 91) gives you an extra +2 stat to your buffing spells (bull's strength for +6!). Scribe Scroll/ Craft Wondrous Item (PHB) are great for allowing you to have access to more spells on-demand (need to cure some poison right now but didn't prepare remove poison? No problem!). A [reserve] feat (CC, UA) can give you all-day spellcasting if you don't want to swing your sword. Most metamagic (lots of books; CAr, CM, and PHB have good ones) is good.

The choice of a weapon is a personal thing; some weapons are better than others, but I encourage you to pick whichever you like. The differences aren't that great.

Do you think I should put a rank into my other trained only skills? I haven't put ranks into craft, know (arcane), know (history), profession, or heal.

I like the idea of the longspear, because I think the reach mechanics are fun.

[Andezzar]

The problem is I can't take both intuitive attack and power attack, since my BAB is 0 at level 1.Power Attack only requires STR 13, so you could take it at level 1 and Intuitive attack at level 3.

[Klorox]

Power Attack only requires STR 13, so you could take it at level 1 and Intuitive attack at level 3.

Oh, I thought it required +1 BAB. You're right though!

About the skills, the Cleric guide that was linked to on page 1 says all I need is spellcraft and concentration. Is that true?

[GilesTheCleric]

Oh, I thought it required +1 BAB. You're right though!

About the skills, the Cleric guide that was linked to on page 1 says all I need is spellcraft and concentration. Is that true?

Those are the only two necessary skills, yes. However, I'd put at least one rank in all of the knowledges (no rush on that, but sooner is better than later). Craft and profession aren't very useful; Heal has few benefits, mostly related to some spells and feats (if you're focusing on healing, having healing ranks can unlock different options). If you do a lot of roleplay, ranks in heal could be quite useful, though.

(Edit: Do note that having 5 ranks in each knowledge skill gives you a "synergy bonus" of +2 to another skill - religion increases your turning ability, but how often are you ever going to use it on undead?)

@Zamiel: Why do you feel clerics are feat-starved? Do you mean when using DMM, or generally?

[Klorox]

Alright, cool.

It looks like I'm just about done then.

I just want to heartily thank y'all who helped me with this little project. Very cool! It's much appreciated!

[ZamielVanWeber]

@Zamiel: Why do you feel clerics are feat-starved? Do you mean when using DMM, or generally?

DMM definitely, but I find when I play casters there are simply a lot of good feats that take up my attention and I am never simply able to take them all.

[GilesTheCleric]

DMM definitely, but I find when I play casters there are simply a lot of good feats that take up my attention and I am never simply able to take them all.

Haha, I understand your pain. I think clerics are nice in that there aren't any feats that are absolutely necessary (like PA for fighters or Natural Spell for druids), but a whole host of feats that would be nice to have.

[Klorox]

What's DMM?

[GilesTheCleric]

What's DMM?

Divine Metamagic, one of the [divine] feats. It lets you trade turn attempts to pay for metamagic. It's free metamagic, essentially. It's one of the easiest ways to greatly increase the power of a clerics -- a playgrounder above listed it as part of a suggested feat progression (extend spell, persist spell, DMM: persist).

[Klorox]

Divine Metamagic, one of the [divine] feats. It lets you trade turn attempts to pay for metamagic. It's free metamagic, essentially. It's one of the easiest ways to greatly increase the power of a clerics -- a playgrounder above listed it as part of a suggested feat progression (extend spell, persist spell, DMM: persist).

Sorry. It's just so much new stuff, I guess I'm not grasping it all.

I'm not understanding the feat though. Let's say I take Extend Spell, then I take DMM (extend spell). What's the point, since I already have extend spell?

[GilesTheCleric]

Sorry. It's just so much new stuff, I guess I'm not grasping it all.

I'm not understanding the feat though. Let's say I take Extend Spell, then I take DMM (extend spell). What's the point, since I already have extend spell?

No worries. 3.5 is possibly the most complex D&D game (PF might be equally as complicated; I couldn't say). When you use extend spell, say on Divine Power, it increases the level of the slot you cast it out of -- Divine Power is normally a 4th level spell, and thus requires a 4th level slot. If it's an Extended Divine Power, then you need to cast it out of a 5th level slot (as a 5th level spell). DMM: extend lets you instead spend 2 turn attempts (it costs turns equal to the increase, plus one) to cast Extended Divine Power at 4th as usual. Since you get fewer higher-level spell slots, this is a great savings.

Edit: When it comes to Persist, DMM:P is an incredible bargain. It will let you trade 7 turn attempts to entirely negate the +6 level cost of Persist. So, a spell like Divine Power would normally have become a 10th level spell (something that PCs simply cannot cast at all, since they have a limit of 9th level spells). With DMM:P, suddenly your Divine Power lasts 24 hours from a 4th-level spell slot. For spells that have a normal duration of rounds/ caster level (usually 20 at max), this means you can keep your buffs up literally all day instead of 20 rounds (2 minutes).

[Klorox]

No worries. 3.5 is possibly the most complex D&D game (PF might be equally as complicated; I couldn't say). When you use extend spell, say on Divine Power, it increases the level of the slot you cast it out of -- Divine Power is normally a 4th level spell, and thus requires a 4th level slot. If it's an Extended Divine Power, then you need to cast it out of a 5th level slot (as a 5th level spell). DMM: extend lets you instead spend 2 turn attempts (it costs turns equal to the increase, plus one) to cast Extended Divine Power at 4th as usual. Since you get fewer higher-level spell slots, this is a great savings.

Huh, interesting.

[ZamielVanWeber]

One other useful part about Divine Metamagic is that it is a free action that you take after you prepare the spell. DMM (Quicken) let's you quicken on the fly. This is true of anything you use DMM with. It gives a much greater level of control over your metamagic at the cost of a large number of turn attempts.

[GilesTheCleric]

One other useful part about Divine Metamagic is that it is a free action that you take after you prepare the spell. DMM (Quicken) let's you quicken on the fly. This is true of anything you use DMM with. It gives a much greater level of control over your metamagic at the cost of a large number of turn attempts.

That's an excellent point, Zamiel. It's worth noting that, like almost everything in 3.5, there's a way to obviate or effectively lessen the cost (by investing more resources somewhere else in your character build; for example, by spending gold on Nightsticks (LM) that give you extra turning attempts, picking up the Extra Turning feat (PHB), increasing cha via items, or getting additional turning from prestige classes).

Edit: I did make an edit to my earlier post about DMM:persist in case you missed it.

[Andezzar]

So if you want to persist more than one spell, you will need lots of Turn undead attempts. Extra Turning is one source for four more (can be taken more than once)
Each Nightstick (LM p. 78) gives you four more for 7500 gp. This is such a bargain, that many DM's ban that item.