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TentacleSurpris
2015-12-16, 11:16 AM
Like many people I'm excited to play a bladesinger. Unlike many people, I actually read the fluff text in the sidebar above the crunch text. From that I've come to the conclusion that whoever wrote this doesn't actually play DND. It's sad that Wizards or the subcontractor hires writers who don't play the game, but it seems to be true. Let me review the styles (which I genuinely wanted to integrate into my character concept).

Bladesinger Styles

Cat.

Lion: Uses a Longsword, which Elves are trained in. They don't favor any particular type of spells. This is all fine, it doesn't say much so there isn't anything to complain about. At least they got the Elven trained weapon right.
Leopard: Focuses on the shortsword and spells of illusion and stealth. That's good, Wizards have plenty of those, and the Shortsword makes a pretty good weapon choice.
Red Tiger: Do Tigers that are Red exist in Forgotten Realms? I've never heard of them. This style favors the scimitar, which is a Finesse Weapon. It makes sense that a non-traditional elven weapon is the newest style, just three centuries old. The whirling dance of defense describes the Bladesinger playstyle pretty well.


At this point, the author takes a dive into the shallow end.

Bird.

Eagle style focuses on the handaxe and fluid ways of throwing the weapon and draw a new one. Why? Elves have proficiency with Longbows and Shortbows, which don't disarm you every time you attack. That aside, no matter how fluid your style, throwing handaxes doesn't work with the Bladesinger's 6th level Extra Attack feature, as you can't draw weapons that quickly in DND. It also doesn't work with any Cantrip. So how or why do you actually use this style in the game of Dungeons and Dragons?
Raven: This style uses a Pick, which isn't even a weapon in the PHB. Next, the Raven style uses "spells which grant the bladesinger more agility in combat." To my knowledge, there aren't plural "spells" which grant agility, there is only one, Enhance Ability: Cat's Grace. Shouldn't this be the favored spell of the Cat style? Even then, this spell gives Advantage on Dexerity checks, such as Acrobatics. But the Bladesinger already has advantage on acrobatics. This is the absolute LAST spell any bladesinger should be using.


Snake

Viper: this style uses a whip which "can keep many foes at bay." Actually whips don't keep foes at bay, that's not how Attacks of Opportunity work. It's a common misconception, but AoOs trigger when leaving a threatened area, not when leaving a threatened square to enter another one. It also says it "allows the bladesinger space to cast the cruel spells of poison and disease favored by the style." There are so many things wrong with this. First, Bladesingers have zero disease spells on their class list. None. They have only a few poison spells, but they all have a range of Touch or 10 ft, and if you're using a whip to somehow keep enemies at bay, are useless.


If the author of this list had actually played DND, the most prominent styles would use the Rapier, which most Bladesingers will use because it's the highest-damage Dexterity based weapon, and the Rapier is what Bladesingers used in 2nd Edition. Elves get a bonus to Dexterity. Every bladesinger PC out there is using a Shortsword or Dagger at level 1 and a Rapier after level 2. Every. Single. One. I include the Dagger because it's on the Wizard starting equipment, unlike the shortsword.

It just bugs me to pay the highest $/page ratio for a DND book in history and get content written by people who don't even play the game, or who aren't thinking about DND when writing it.

I like fluff that enhances roleplaying or that I can incorporate into the game. I like fluff written by people who understand the game they're writing it for. I like it when authors understand if they're writing a sourcebook, unlike a novel, should be geared towards being incorporated into the game.

As an aside, the sidebar also mentions Bladesingers getting tattoos of their styles. Think about that for a second. Do Elves ever have tattoos in any of the novels or fiction or fluff? No they don't, because tattoos turn black and disgusting after about 20 years. You wouldn't want some droopy 500 year old tattoo of a smeared mess on your beautiful elven body.

Cazero
2015-12-16, 11:54 AM
Fluff that doesn't match an optimised use of the game mechanics as they exist? How shocking !

The only thing your Bladesinger is supposed to do in melee is cast melee-range spells. At that point, weapon choice is purely cosmetic, and the 'schools' reflect that by thematically linking a weapon to spells that reflect a way of fighting. Lion is a generalist, like the traditional elven longsword. Leopard is specialised in misinformation and ambush, a perfect match for the concealable shortsword. Viper use vicious control spells such as Toxic Cloud, mirrored in the whip wich is designed to be painful first and lethal second.
Why would I want a rapier on my Bladesinger? It's not like I'm going to use those melee attacks outside of very specific situations where my cantrips are useless. Might as well have reach, free elven proficiency, or the possibility to use my weapon as an improvised tool. Rapiers can't do any of that.

And I'm quite sure magical fantasy tattos don't have the same problem than real world mundane tattoos do.

(Eagle is still bull**** though.)

Corran
2015-12-16, 11:55 AM
I like fluff that enhances roleplaying or that I can incorporate into the game.
This. And ofc I completely agree with everything else in the op.

And as far as the dude(tte) who will stop by and say that s/he plays a bladesinger using a handaxe, yes...... it is only you......, and perhaps a couple more who do sth like that.

And as far as the ones who will say that this kind of thinking is min-maxing, no, it is not min maxing to ask for game design that supports equally different options. This fluff never presented any real choice, it exists just to take some space in the book.

This whole topic was kind of discussed in another thread though, so judging from that I dont think we are going to agree on something here.

SwordChuck
2015-12-16, 11:59 AM
Just a technicality but all weapons are meant to keep foes at bay. I mean, it's not like weapons are about sunshine, hugs, and rainbows.

Dimolyth
2015-12-16, 12:03 PM
As an aside, the sidebar also mentions Bladesingers getting tattoos of their styles. Think about that for a second. Do Elves ever have tattoos in any of the novels or fiction or fluff? No they don't, because tattoos turn black and disgusting after about 20 years. You wouldn't want some droopy 500 year old tattoo of a smeared mess on your beautiful elven body.

For the lore of Forgotten Realms, both drow and wild elves use tattoos. (You can rule that are not "ink under skin" tattoos though, they could be made by special materials (if drow), or just with ochre (if wild elf). Though, neither drow, nor wild elves were ever classic bladesingers. And wild elves even did not detailed as player race in 5e.

This little detail is a pretty much a mark, that the author of that sidebar haven`t played or just knew a lot about D&D and FR. Bladesong is pretty specialised style by itself linked to elven lore / traditions... so there are swords, rapiers, "thinblades"... the most unortodox bladesinger could be maybe a dagger master.
When I first read that sidebar (especially about hand axes), I did imagined a dwarven Rage Mage - Barbarian/Bladesinger with CON/STR/INT build, who is concentrating on spells recklessly attacking (Barbarian Dip for level or two). So, the "styles" as for me are more to make homebrew, than to customize traditional bladesinger.

Rusvul
2015-12-16, 12:19 PM
I find it kind of humorous that Viper specifies you use a whip to keep people at bay- Whips are the only Reach weapon that doesn't work with Polearm Master. With a Pike, you can actually attack someone as they move into range. But not with a whip.

The War-Pick, as well, is almost a straight downgrade from the Warhammer and Battleaxe- The only difference is it deals Piercing damage instead of Slashing or Bludgeoning, and it gives up the Versatile property for that. It's not a very good weapon to use, especially for an agile combatant, as it lacks the Finesse property.

CNagy
2015-12-16, 12:41 PM
Or maybe the author actually knows something about Bladesingers.

Yes, Bladesingers get tattoos and have gotten the animal-motif of their specific weapon guild since the Bladesinger was created back in the Complete Book of Elves.

Yes, Bladesingers use all kinds of weapons. Bladesingers originally chose one type of weapon and practiced exclusively with it, gaining bonuses when they used that weapon. The common weapons for Bladesingers were longswords and shortswords because Elves already received a bonus with such weapons and the bonus from Bladesinger stacked with it. But Bladesingers took all types of weapons because a) this was a time before finesse weapons were a concept and b) Bladesingers were a Fighter/Wizard kit, not a single-class Wizard.

So what really happened is that the people in charge of the crunch had no idea what they were doing.

Bladesong ends if you make a two-handed attack? The original Bladesinger was encourage to learn both one-handed and two-handed weapon styles, the latter being used when the Bladesinger was not casting spells.

Bladesinger as a full wizard? Nonsense. Bladesingers were multiclass by design. I could make a more faithful Bladesinger as a slightly tweaked Ranger subclass than the Bladesinger they foisted on us in the SCAG. Edit: Though to be completely honest, it'd be a lot easier if we had an arcane half-caster basic class in the first place.

Dalebert
2015-12-16, 12:50 PM
Every bladesinger PC out there is using a Shortsword or Dagger at level 1 and a Rapier after level 2. Every. Single. One. I include the Dagger because it's on the Wizard starting equipment, unlike the shortsword.

As an aside, the sidebar also mentions Bladesingers getting tattoos of their styles. Think about that for a second. Do Elves ever have tattoos in any of the novels or fiction or fluff? No they don't, because tattoos turn black and disgusting after about 20 years. You wouldn't want some droopy 500 year old tattoo of a smeared mess on your beautiful elven body.

This is my bladesinger who I just started playing at level 2.
http://i.imgur.com/okPKsvq.jpg

I took the whip because it has reach and though I chose bladesinger to be a little tougher and get concentration help, I don't actually feel tough enough to wade into battle all the time. Meanwhile, their tattoos are made of special fantasy materials that don't deteriorate or that can be renewed with magic or special materials every 20 years or so to keep them looking good. *shrug* This is pure fluff that affects nothing mechanically so I can't see any DM being a douche about it. I don't think you should impose your notion of elves on everyone else. "All elves must look basically the same and fit a certain stereotype!" Uhm... no.


It just bugs me to pay the highest $/page ratio for a DND book in history and get content written by people who don't even play the game, or who aren't thinking about DND when writing it.

I agree. It feels like they were padding the book and it still ended up disappointingly thin. Despite me poking a little fun, you made some very good points.


Just a technicality but all weapons are meant to keep foes at bay. I mean, it's not like weapons are about sunshine, hugs, and rainbows.

Thanks. :) This made me laugh.

SwordChuck
2015-12-16, 02:02 PM
Thanks. :) This made me laugh.

Awesome, your welcome :).

Every time I see your user name it makes me do a double take, my middle name is Dale and I had a username way back when of Dalebert (my avatar was myself drawn as a Dilbert character).

Dalebert
2015-12-16, 03:36 PM
Every time I see your user name it makes me do a double take, my middle name is Dale and I had a username way back when of Dalebert (my avatar was myself drawn as a Dilbert character).

It's my first name and my inspiration for the nickname was that I used to be a big fan of Dilbert. I'm not really still following it.

SwordChuck
2015-12-16, 03:47 PM
It's my first name and my inspiration for the nickname was that I used to be a big fan of Dilbert. I'm not really still following it.

Well, that's a bit creepy*, haha.


*coincidental

Theodoxus
2015-12-16, 03:55 PM
You'd think it wouldn't be so difficult to make a gish, or an arcane warrior, or a bladesinger... in fact, I know it's not, since the Homebrew section, both here and elsewhere, are chock full of interpretations that work (and interpretations that are sheer powergrabs, but that's expected).

What's sad (outside of necessary AL play) is that so many here, even in their personal home games, take WotC concepts as law and poopoo anything else.

Yeah, the SCAG is light, and expensive (if I hadn't bought it with Amazon points, I wouldn't have bought it, as another family in our circle had). Yeah, the Bladesinger as presented is half-assed at best - but it does at least provide a jumping off point - a 'this is what we think the tradition would look like in 5e'. But feel free to scrap it, or mod it, or add crunch to make their fluff work.

Dalebert
2015-12-16, 04:13 PM
What's sad (outside of necessary AL play) is that so many here, even in their personal home games, take WotC concepts as law and poopoo anything else.

I definitely don't do that. In games I run outside of AL, I have a list of house rules. However, most of my games I run and play in are AL so I kinda have to deal with it. I might have a lenient DM one session and a strict on in another so I have to have rules-legal ammo to defend my character build. A lot of us don't usually have the luxury of just homebrewing everything we think is missing from the game.

SwordChuck
2015-12-16, 04:16 PM
I prefer homebrew when it comes to 5e. The core mechanics is great but the balance of the classes and how restrictive some of them are is just too much for anything other than a 1 or 2 shot.

I only play AL because my frienda are DMs and want me in their games.

Rusvul
2015-12-16, 05:08 PM
It's still a vast improvement over 3.5 in terms of balance. I've never played 4e, though, not sure if that was more balanced.

SwordChuck
2015-12-16, 07:06 PM
It's still a vast improvement over 3.5 in terms of balance. I've never played 4e, though, not sure if that was more balanced.

4e is more balanced until you get into the essentials line of 4e (which actually looks a lot like 5e).

3.5 actually can be balanced quite esily if you get rid of core classes like the fighter, wizard, druid, and cleric. Replace them with alternates like the warblade, dread necromancer (and its relatives), totemist, and crusader.

In time 5e may become balanced. Of course just because another game is more balanced doesn't mean that 5e is excused for doing a piss poor job at it. At least 5e for the core correct ideology and math correct (though I typically use a different saving throw set up).

Rowan Wolf
2015-12-16, 08:21 PM
Do Tigers that are Red exist in Forgotten Realms? I've never heard of them.


There was/is an Uthgardt tribe as far back as at least 3rd edition that had a 'snow cat' totem and were called the Red Tigers.

techsamurai5000
2015-12-17, 02:19 PM
Bladesinger as a full wizard? Nonsense. Bladesingers were multiclass by design. I could make a more faithful Bladesinger as a slightly tweaked Ranger subclass than the Bladesinger they foisted on us in the SCAG. Edit: Though to be completely honest, it'd be a lot easier if we had an arcane half-caster basic class in the first place.

Just out of curiosity, (and this probably isn't the best place for this question) how would you go about tweaking the ranger? Very roughly speaking, of course.. not asking for a full on class description.

I took a shot at homebrewing an arcane warrior using the Paladin as the model. Just curious what you would keep and what you would ditch from the Ranger.