[3.5] Bloodlines. After a week of research, I still don't get them.

[D4rkh0rus]

I've been looking at Bloodlines for like a week now, and I'm still not entirely sure I understand them correctly.
The main point I don't get is Character level, Bloodline levels and Exp.

For example, Lets say I have a lvl 1 Binder. To get to lvl 2, I need 1,000 Exp. I then gain exactly 1k exp. So, Now Im lvl 2, And choose to take a level in Sorcerer. To get to lvl 3, I need to get 2,000 Exp.

Now, here comes the questions:

I gain exactly 2,000 Exp, Putting me to lvl 3, I then choose to take my first bloodline level.
What happens now?

What level do I count as?
My interpretation is that Bloodline Levels don't Increase your ECL, but other say they do.

What amount of Exp will I need to get to my 3rd Class level?
My interpretation is that I need to get another 2,000 Exp, since I count as a 2nd level for next lvl exp, but Others Say that it would be 3,000 instead (the amount needed to get from 3rd lvl to 4th level).

Can I reach 20 Class levels while having 3 Bloodline Levels without being counted as Epic?


And Finally, Casters and Bloodlines.
I know that for example, a Wizard or Sorcerer, only gets a higher Caster Level from a bloodline, but what about Prestige Classes?

If I have Bloodline levels and I take a prestige Class that grants Spellcasting levels every level, Do I get as many spellcaster levels in the class I chose as I have bloodline levels as well?

(For example, Wizard 3, Master Specialist 1. With 1 Bloodline level (of any type) Would the Wizard be a 4HD character with 4th lvl wizard stuff a CL of 5, or would it be a 4hd character with 5th level wizard stuff and a CL of 5?



Thank you all in advance for any help you may provide :P

[Swaoeaeieu]

many interpretations exist. all of them are by some degree a logical interpretation.
however, there has never been any kind of clarification of what the true one is. so while the forums go to war on occasion to fight it out over who is right, no one will ever get a consensus.

that leaves you with only one advise you can use: ask your dm, he decides in the end.

[Beheld]

It's super mega hyper clear that bloodline levels do not count as ECL "Class levels of “bloodline” do not increase a character’s character level the way a normal class level does,"

So you are still a level 2 character who needs the amount of XP you normally needed to get to level 3. You are spending XP to gain benefits that don't count against ECL, which is always and forever dumb, whether it is LA buyoff, crafting items to get double WBL, Bloodline Levels, or spending XP to get more class features, but that is how they work.

You can reach 20 without being epic, but you have to spend more XP to get there. Although, since you gain more XP for being lower level, you'll probably end up getting there nearly the same times as everyone else.

Prestige class Caster level could easily be argued either way, but basically, do you want to play a game in which a Wizard 3/Master Specialist 2/Mindbender 1/Divine Oracle 1/Mage of the Arcane Order 1/Sacred Exorcist 1/ect. at level 11 has a CL of 21? Because I don't.

[AmberVael]

The "Bloodlines don't add to ECL" interpretation really just doesn't have any basis in the rules.

I mean, okay. I get where it comes from. Its this really stupid line:

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).

But the problem with interpreting this as "it doesn't add to ECL" comes in with trying to figure out how that works. The bloodline rules give absolutely no provisions for such a situation, no explanation for its functioning. It doesn't push your needed experience higher (which would just be adding to ECL). It doesn't cost experience either, otherwise something like that would be stated, like it was with the LA buyoff rules in the same book. Which leaves you with the interpretation "you take this level of bloodline, it doesn't add to your ECL, and it costs nothing because you just immediately level up normally too since your exp is the same." Which is pretty ridiculous.
In short, with this interpretation you either need to accept that bloodlines are entirely costless, or houserule in a cost, because one doesn't exist as is.

The exact rules are kind of a mess, but I think it makes the most sense to just interpret it as somewhat weird, scaling LA. Which admittedly is costly.


As for what this does to a spellcaster, it increases your caster level but doesn't give you more spells known, per day, or higher spell levels. See:

For example, a 2nd-level sorcerer with a major bloodline takes a bloodline level when earns enough XP to advance in level. He is treated as a 3rd-level spellcaster for the purpose of spell durations, caster level checks, and so forth. But he doesn't gain a 3rd-level sorcerer's spells per day or spells known.

[Cosi]

Not super on topic, but in any discussion of bloodlines it's worth mentioning that every bloodline gives a benefit several levels before you have to pay for it. That makes bloodlines (admittedly minor) power for nothing in any game you expect to end before your first bloodline level.

[D4rkh0rus]

I see, So there is no cleat way of determining ><

[Telonius]

The rules are a pretty heaping mess, but here's what I've been able to piece together as how it's supposed to work. This is my interpretation only; your DM will have to rule on whatever you come up with. I'm assuming a regular PHB race, with nothing weird like Racial Hit Dice, Templates, or any kind of Level Adjustment.

Level
1 Binder1 (ECL 1)
- Gain 1000 xp -
2 Binder2 (ECL 2)
- Gain 2000 xp -
(3) Major Bloodline/I'mNotActuallyARealLevel1 (ECL 2)
- Gain 3000 xp
3 Binder3 (ECL 3)

I'mNotActuallyARealLevel does give you a few things. It allows you an additional +1 to your maximum ranks in class skills (when you take you next real level). It increases your Caster Level by 1 for all spells. (Note that this is Caster Level only; it doesn't give you any additional spells known or spells per day. It mostly matters to spell damage and duration, as well as a couple of other things). Effective Character Level is defined as Character Level plus racial hit dice plus level adjustment. INAARL does not actually grant a level, and isn't a racial hit die or a level adjustment, so it doesn't count against it.

If you take a Bloodline, you will not reach Epic before you get to level 21. You'll need a higher XP total than usual to hit 21, since you'll have spent some amount of XP reaching INAARL 3.

Most Prestige Classes advance the casting of the original class, rather than granting a list of their own. The PrC isn't affected by INAARL. If you had a Wizard15/Archmage4/INAARL3, both the Archmage and INAARL modify Wizard; so the caster level would be 22. There are some Prestige Classes that don't work like that - Ur-Priest, and any of the others that give a unique spell list. Those classes would count just as though they were their own spellcasting class. So if you were to somehow get a Bard10/Assassin8/INAARL3, you'd have a caster level of 13 for the Bard and 11 for the Assassin.


EDIT: The closest parallel I've been able to figure for it would be something like the MM1 Half-races. While they have a static Level Adjustment, their CRs vary depending on how many hit dice they have. Increasing the CR doesn't do much for them, it's just a bookkeeping thing. Similar thing going on with Bloodlines. At various hitdice, you wait a bit longer to level up; but they throw you a bone on caster level and skill point cap so it doesn't hurt quite so bad.

[Beheld]

The exact rules are kind of a mess, but I think it makes the most sense to just interpret it as somewhat weird, scaling LA. Which admittedly is costly.

You think the most sensible interpretation of the rules explicitly stating that bloodline levels don't add to ECL, is that they do add to ECL? That's a unique definition of sensible.

If you are confused at how the poorly worded XP cost from taking Bloodline level is accounted, that's fine. It's poorly written nonsense. But to claim that the most sensible interpretation is that Bloodline levels add to ECL when the entire purpose of Bloodline levels is to design a system that recognizes the benefits aren't worth an actual class level is weird.

[rrwoods]

Oh hey, I was just asking about these the other day.

The most confusing part is how they interact with XP. From what I gather, it works like this:

The XP *increment* you need to get from level N to the next level is 1000*n. Add this to the last number you needed to level, and you'll get the *total* amount you need to get to the next level. WITHOUT any bloodline levels, this gets you to the table listed in the core rules: 1000 for level 2, 3000 for level 3, etc.

Enter bloodline levels. Bloodline levels are not levels, except for the ways explicitly listed in the bloodline rules. Notably, they aren't levels when determining the XP increment needed to achieve the next level. So let's say our level 2 character reaches 3000 XP and decides to take a bloodline level. Now, that character is still level 2, so the XP increment needed to gain another level is 2000, meaning their total must reach 5000. (Note that you can take bloodline levels early if you want to; this has the effect of reducing all your XP "costs" for taking those levels at the expense of a delayed class progression.)

All of this is clear as mud in the SRD article on bloodlines, of course, and it's one of two valid interpretations. However I think it's the accepted one, if the Optimization Showcase is anything to go by.

EDIT: Bloodline levels' interaction with CL is easy enough. Say you have a wizard 4 with one bloodline level. You prepare spells as a 4th level wizard (because your spell progression is defined in the class feature table, and bloodline levels don't advance your class feature) but you cast at CL 5 (because bloodline levels add to caster level). Okay? Okay.

Some systems respond a little differently though. Look at Binder's prestige classes: it's their text that specifies their class levels stack with Binder for determining your EBL. So if you are, for example, Binder 7 / Knight of the Sacred Seal 1 with one bloodline level, your EBL is 10. 8 from Binder, 2 from KOSS.

Other prestige classes may behave this way as well, I haven't looked. I'd also not be surprised if a DM house ruled this away.

[Bronk]

The biggest problem with the way the rules for bloodlines are written is that they don't mesh with the official way of accumulating XP.

Normally you accumulate XP as an ever growing number that you keep track of, and you gain levels as you tick past certain milestones.

The problem with bloodlines is that you're clearly supposed to be paying or otherwise using XP to get them. So, say you pass level two, and you finally gain enough xp to level up again. If you take level three, there's no problem. If instead you take bloodline level 1, you get the benefits of bloodline level 1, but then what? It's not a real level, so you're still level two, but with enough XP for level three. So, rules as written, now you're level 3, and just got a free bloodline level.

This is especially troublesome once you realize there's nothing stopping you from taking more than one set of bloodlines! RAW, you could take, just, all the bloodlines for free.

So, people (DMs) try to come up with various ways to make it actually work in a game. You could treat it as LA or ECL, which captures the use of XP, but I think that goes too far by making it so that your levels are stunted in a game that only goes to level 20.

In my games, I treat bloodlines as costing as much XP as it would take to get to the next level, and then the XP disappears, like spending XP for a spell, because I think it causes fewer headaches.

[Darrin]

All of this is clear as mud in the SRD article on bloodlines, of course, and it's one of two valid interpretations. However I think it's the accepted one, if the Optimization Showcase is anything to go by.

There are two methods to make the XP cost functional:

1) Reduce your XP by N, where N = amount of XP to level up for your next level. This makes it similar to LA Buyoff or wizards crafting magic items, where we already have a grasp of how the mechanics work. This means you're "falling behind" the rest of the party, but it also allows you to use the same XP table as everyone else. Essentially you "repeat" earning XP for certain levels, and if you do this early on then the cost is much lower than if you do it in your later levels. The UA text never mentions reducing or losing XP this way, so it's probably not RAW but it's easier bookkeeping.

2) Increase the amount needed to level up for all your future levels by N, where N = amount spent on Bloodline levels. This means you have to calculate a new XP chart specifically for this character whenever he levels up. While this means the character still has the same amount of XP as everyone else in the party, the bookkeeping is more of a mess. Assuming the designers intended for bloodline levels to not count towards ECL, this method is closer to matching the text, but is much more confusing and annoying.

[rrwoods]

@Darrin: I'd probably use your method 1, as it's easily the cleanest way almost all the time. There is, however, the question of how losing a level works in that system (or at all, actually). One could argue that the same text that stipulates that bloodline levels aren't real levels means they can't be lost; in that case you'd lose your last gained class level instead. But if you wanted to rule that a bloodline level is lost, I think you simply wouldn't lose any XP (you already lost the XP when you took the bloodline level).

[Segev]

"It doesn't raise your level like normal class levels" doesn't mean "it doesn't count as a level nor raise your ECL." The two statements are not (necessarily) equivalent. The latter COULD be one way the former is true, but there are other ways the former can be true.

Such as, "This doesn't behave like a normal level, in that it doesn't give you a new hit die nor skills nor BAB nor saves."

If "bloodline levels" didn't count as an actual level in your ECL, there would be no reason for them to give the "lesser" benefits they do grant (advancing CL, etc.).

In fact, if they do all of that and cost you nothing but a couple thousand XP, then they're flat-out better than regular levels, so taking a Bloodline is 100% positive with no drawback. D&D's game design does not typically work that way (at least not intentionally).

It is very clear that the intent (yes, yes, RAI is not RAW) was to have the "bloodline levels" be a cost paid by the PC for the powers of the bloodline. Since there is disagreement over what the RAW means, and given the discussion I opened this post with, the clear intent actually is a useful guideline for how to interpret the RAW.

That is, that bloodline levels ARE levels, they DO increase your ECL and DO make you unable to gain 20 HD pre-Epic. They are not "like normal levels" because they don't offer HD, skills, BAB, feats, or stat boosts. They were written before "monster progressions," or they might have been likened to the levels of monster progressions that don't come with HD advancement.

Bloodline levels are actually really useful for some builds. They boost some class features which are normally limited by the cap on the PrC's level. They can advance multiple CLs and other "class level" counters simultaneously (letting you advance, as a less-than-optimal example, the monk's stunning fist and the sorcerer's caster level and the paladin's smite evil level-based bonus with a single level). But they ARE levels.


Essentially, you have two valid readings of the RAW. One is in line with the clear intent of what was written, treating bloodline levels as at least a mild sacrifice to "pay" for the bloodline. The other only makes Bloodlines more powerful and less balanced. Which do you think is the correct reading to go with?

[rrwoods]

Personally I don't think bloodline levels not advancing character level is unbalanced. They advance each of your classes "level counters", so yeah, level-dependent effects get increased. But you don't gain new class features or hit dice or lots of other things. I'd be hard pressed to say that makes them strictly better than class levels.

However I don't have practical experience with bloodlines, so my thoughts could be way off base here.

[Beheld]

In fact, if they do all of that and cost you nothing but a couple thousand XP, then they're flat-out better than regular levels, so taking a Bloodline is 100% positive with no drawback. D&D's game design does not typically work that way (at least not intentionally).

You mean like LA buyoff that literally comes right before that and has the same qualities?

There really aren't two viable interpretations, there is one interpretation, and then people who really really really really really wish that wasn't what it said, and so choose to do something that completely contradicts the relevant rule on purpose because they don't want all their characters to slap on a bloodline for free power.

But you can just not allow them to do that, because it's an optional rule to make up for how bad LA and Half Dragon templates and stuff are.

[AmberVael]

You think the most sensible interpretation of the rules explicitly stating that bloodline levels don't add to ECL, is that they do add to ECL? That's a unique definition of sensible.

If you are confused at how the poorly worded XP cost from taking Bloodline level is accounted, that's fine. It's poorly written nonsense. But to claim that the most sensible interpretation is that Bloodline levels add to ECL when the entire purpose of Bloodline levels is to design a system that recognizes the benefits aren't worth an actual class level is weird.
I think the most sensible interpretation is to assume that the sentence was them stupidly putting their foot in their mouths while trying to say "this doesn't give the normal benefits of class levels" rather than completely making up a new system of adding a cost to it that is mentioned nowhere in the rules. Because there is no "poorly worded XP cost." Its not poorly worded, it doesn't exist. It is fabricated entirely, a houserule popularized by a guide that passed it off as fact.

[Segev]

You mean like LA buyoff that literally comes right before that and has the same qualities?

There really aren't two viable interpretations, there is one interpretation, and then people who really really really really really wish that wasn't what it said, and so choose to do something that completely contradicts the relevant rule on purpose because they don't want all their characters to slap on a bloodline for free power.

But you can just not allow them to do that, because it's an optional rule to make up for how bad LA and Half Dragon templates and stuff are.

No. LA Buyoff is actually a cost, still.

1) LA is, by itself, a cost: you start behind in real levels, and have to earn EXP as if you were of-a-level.
2) LA Buyoff allows you to mitigate this somewhat, but it costs you XP to do so, and you can only do it after a certain number of levels.
3) All LA Buyoff gets you for the spent XP is a lower ECL so that you can earn future levels for less.

Bloodline levels, on the other hand:

1) Come AFTER you've already received the first few benefits 100% for free.
2) Give you something upon taking them (increased CL, etc.)


LA Buyoff doesn't suddenly make your LA into extra bonuses. Bloodline levels that don't add to ECL are just plain extra bonuses.


Nobody would take LA just to get the privilege of LA buyoff. I can think of builds where, if Bloodline Levels didn't increase ECL, people would want to take them even without a bloodline attached!

[Troacctid]

There really aren't two viable interpretations, there is one interpretation, and then people who really really really really really wish that wasn't what it said, and so choose to do something that completely contradicts the relevant rule on purpose because they don't want all their characters to slap on a bloodline for free power.

I think saying a viable interpretation exists is pretty generous. I don't think any interpretation of the RAW for bloodlines is viable. It's a pile of nonsense and the only way to make it work is to handwave the problems away.

[Beheld]

No. LA Buyoff is actually a cost, still.

1) LA is, by itself, a cost: you start behind in real levels, and have to earn EXP as if you were of-a-level.
2) LA Buyoff allows you to mitigate this somewhat, but it costs you XP to do so, and you can only do it after a certain number of levels.
3) All LA Buyoff gets you for the spent XP is a lower ECL so that you can earn future levels for less.

LA Buyoff doesn't suddenly make your LA into extra bonuses. Bloodline levels that don't add to ECL are just plain extra bonuses.


Nobody would take LA just to get the privilege of LA buyoff. I can think of builds where, if Bloodline Levels didn't increase ECL, people would want to take them even without a bloodline attached!

Uh... yes they would. If you are a level 4 character in a game with LA buyoff it is objectively better to have an LA then not. People take that LA just to use LA buyoff all the time. It doesn't matter if you do it as an Arcane Caster who gets Vecna Blooded or a DFA that gets Lolth Touched, either way, if you are higher than level 4, LA is objectively free power. You spend some XP, and you get huge bonuses, and then you end up with the same amount of XP a level and a half later.


I think saying a viable interpretation exists is pretty generous. I don't think any interpretation of the RAW for bloodlines is viable. It's a pile of nonsense and the only way to make it work is to handwave the problems away.

Let me clear, I'm not saying there is a viable interpretation of everything about Bloodlines, only that a character with 3 character levels and a bloodline level is not a level 4 character.

[Telonius]

Again, just my own interpretation here, but I think the major cost of Bloodlines was supposed to be the real-world delay in class progression. As in, you'd have to spend several additional sessions' worth of XP earning before you'd get your extra HP, skills, spells known, BAB, or whatever, from your regular (non-Bloodline) levels. While the non-Bloodline Cleric has been casting multiple Level 9 spells per day for three levels, the Major-Bloodline Wizard will only barely crack 9th-level spells before the game breaks up at 20th (and the Sorcerer's just plain out of luck). I'd consider that a tradeoff. Maybe worth it, maybe not; but you aren't getting something for nothing.

[Necroticplague]

They way I always interpreted bloodlines, they were essentially pre-bought off LA. So if you're level 2, and have the XP to go to level three, you can instead lose all that XP to drop down to the XP you started the level with.
The bloodline 'level' doesn't increase your ECL, so you're a level 2 character, need the normal XP to go from 2 to three, and you're not epic until you have 18 more class levels.

As for the pRC+base class mess..... It appears that you can double dip like that. After all, the bloodline class level increases things calculations based on your class level by one. Having a full-casting PRC and a base class means that essentially, your CL formula is (Base Class+ PRC). Since Bloodlines act on top of Class Levels in general, it would increase Base Class and PRC each by one, providing a total increase of two.

[Segev]

Uh... yes they would. If you are a level 4 character in a game with LA buyoff it is objectively better to have an LA then not. People take that LA just to use LA buyoff all the time. It doesn't matter if you do it as an Arcane Caster who gets Vecna Blooded or a DFA that gets Lolth Touched, either way, if you are higher than level 4, LA is objectively free power. You spend some XP, and you get huge bonuses, and then you end up with the same amount of XP a level and a half later.


You misunderstand me.

I said "even with no bloodline attached, people would take your version of bloodline levels."

Saying, "People would take a free template" is a total negation of the point I was making.

Nobody would take LA just to buy it off if there were no template they were getting. I am saying there are builds that would absolutely take your version of bloodline levels even if they got no bloodline out of it. They'd gleefully spend the exp for the free boosts to level-counters without having to increase their ECL alone.

[Andorn]

Uh... yes they would. If you are a level 4 character in a game with LA buyoff it is objectively better to have an LA then not. People take that LA just to use LA buyoff all the time. It doesn't matter if you do it as an Arcane Caster who gets Vecna Blooded or a DFA that gets Lolth Touched, either way, if you are higher than level 4, LA is objectively free power. You spend some XP, and you get huge bonuses, and then you end up with the same amount of XP a level and a half later.


Hmm, I'm not really sure your point is valid, but I'm not clear what you mean by this. Could you explain your thinking, preferably with a concrete example? Especially, what do you mean by "LA is objectively free power", and "you end up with the same amount of XP a level and a half later".

I've looked at the level buyoff rules, and they pretty much suck. If you start with a group at level 1, with a LA > 3, you're getting less XP than anybody else in the group from the get go because your ECL is so much higher. Sure, you can dominate low level critters, but by the time you have enough XP for level 2 (5,000 XP for LA+4), probably everyone else in the group has leveled 3 times (1,000, 3,000, 6,000, at faster XP gain rate).

At that point, you still have level 1 HP (maybe level 2), are fragile compared to the rest of the group, and haven't gained any abilities at all. Your ability edge is now gone, as everybody else has leveled up to a comparable power level. The difference is, they have hit dice, saving throw bonuses, spells, BAB, feats, special abilities, and their first stat increase.

While feats, spells, and special abilities may balance out, your deficits in HP, BAB, and saving throws probably won't, and as monsters get tougher this will matter more and more.

Eventually (depending on your LA) you will get to buy off at least one level. Lets run some actual numbers to see what happens:

If your LA is +4, you get your first buyoff at level 12, for 15,000 XP ((ECL - 1) x 1,000). This will reduce the XP it costs you to level by 1,000 per level, so it will take you 15 levels (until level 24) to break even on the XP cost. Granted, you'll gain XP a bit faster by reducing your ECL by 1. You can buy off a second level at level 15, for a cost of 17,000 XP. It will take you until level 32 to break even on that one. You can buy off a 3rd level at level 18 (19.000 XP), which will take you until level 37 to break even.

If your LA is +5 you'll get to buy off a grand total of ONE level before you reach epic amounts of XP, at level 15. This will cost you ((ECL-1) x 1,000) = 19,000 XP, and will take you until level 34 to break even. You do get to buy off another level at CL 18, but that is ECL 22, an epic level. that level costs 21,000 xp, and will take you until level 40 to pay for itself in reduced xp costs/level. At level 21 (23,000 XP), 23 (25,000 XP) and 25 (27,000 XP) you can buy off your last 3 levels. You'll have to level to 52 just to break even.

If your LA is +6, fagedaboudit. First buyoff is CL 18 (ECL 24), for a cost of 23,000 XP. You've got 5 fewer HD (and con bonuses), 5 less BAB, 3-4 less on each save, you're just weak. You'll have to fight stuff weaker than your ECL in order to be on par, which means slower advancement. Further buyoffs are 21, 24, 27, 30, and 33, with a break even point of level 66. Even then, you are STILL behind all your compatriots by those 5 HD, 5 bab, saves, feats, stat points, and abilities.

Consider a pixie with a 20 charisma and Otto's Dance (LA +6). The party will be level 6 and you'll still be a level 1 sorcerer, with 4-6 HP. So the party meets a level 7 wizard, who chucks an ice storm at you. You have spell resistance of 16, but for the specialist wizard with spell penetration he only needs to roll a 6 on D20 to affect you, and there is no save---5d6 averages to 17.5 damage, and fey cannot be raised.

Basically, the rules for higher levels of ECL are pretty broken. You have a tougher time leveling because once you are out of the lower levels you are always behind the power curve, and you level slower because of your high ECL and relative fragility.

As written, high-LA characters are fun at level 1 when you have a lot of free abilities, but as part of an ongoing campaign they are seriously broken. It seems to me the big problem is making characters wait so long before they start paying XP to buy down those level adjustments. I don't have a problem with the concept of paying extra XP as an investment, but the RAWs just don't work.

By making buydown available at level 1, and every 3 levels after that, characters with high starting ECL can reach leveling and power parity somewhere in the teens to early 20's, which is much more balanced and playable in a long term campaign. A character pays an amount of XP equal to what they need to gain their next level in order to buy down a level.

With this system, a LA+4 character pays 5,000 XP at level 1 to become ECL 4, while the party levels to level 4. The character then levels at par with the group, for 4,000, 5,000, and 6,000, to CL 4. The group will have 7 hit dice, the level-adjusted character will have 4. They will gain XP at the same rate, being the same ECL. At this point the level-adjusted character can buy down another level, for 7,000 XP. The group will reach level 8, while the level-adjusted character becomes ECL 6 (4 HD + LA2).

At this point the level-adjusted character will start to gain XP faster, being 2 levels behind, and lower level. So, while the party gains levels 9, 10, and 11, for 30,000 XP, the level-adjusted character gains character levels 5, 6, and 7, for 7,000, 8,000, and 9,000 XP. With the remaining 6,000, plus extra for being lower level than the group, the adjusted character buys off their 3rd level, and is now ECL 8 (7 HD + LA+1).

So now, the group gains levels 12, 13, and 14, for 39,000 XP. The LA character is ECL 8 so gains XP faster, and gains character levels 8, 9, and 10, for 9,000, 10,000, and 11,000 XP respectively, and buys off their last level. So, they end up 3 levels behind the group, but can now gain XP and level normally.

By the time the group hits level 17 the LA character has probably gained a level on them, being only 2 levels back. By the time the group hits level 21 the LA character may reach character level 20.

This mechanic keeps the group playing together.

A higher LA character will end up farther behind the group before they gain XP parity. The level difference will allow them to gain ground, over time. This is the price they pay for their early fun, I guess.

[bekeleven]

Did you just say that bloodline levels are a better deal than LA by comparing them to an LA+6 race?

Beheld just compared bloodlines to LA Buyoff "at level 4" giving examples of LA+1 templates.

Please try to use serious examples. Nobody takes LA +6 templates in optimization discussions unless they're getting something gamebreaking out of it. With LA like that even Phaerimm wouldn't be playable until mid-double digits.

[zergling.exe]

-snip-

RAW LA reduction is actually worse than that. It's LAx3 at every step. LA 3 is bought off at level 9, 15 and lastly at 18. With a LA of 4, you buy off the first one at level 12, then have to wait until level 21 to buy off the next one.

And that's not even figuring racial HD into this.

[Beheld]

Hmm, I'm not really sure your point is valid, but I'm not clear what you mean by this. Could you explain your thinking, preferably with a concrete example? Especially, what do you mean by "LA is objectively free power", and "you end up with the same amount of XP a level and a half later".


The LA buyoff rules are absolutely terrible. One of them is that the more LA you have (and thus the more you need buyoff) the longer before you can use it. So a +6 LA race can literally never buyoff even one LA, so obviously +6 LA is not the way you compare LA buyoff, since it's literally identical to no LA buyoff.

LA buyoff is free power for nothing at 1 LA.

You are a Wizard 1 with no LA. You take Wizard 2, then Wizard 3. Now you are a level 3 character with X XP. In a world of LA buyoff, when you get enough XP, instead of taking a level, what you should do instead is turn yourself into a Vecna Blooded. That's a +1 LA template, but you immediately buy it off. So you gain the same XP as someone with no LA at levels 1-3, and then you gain more XP than them, because you are level 3 and they are level 4, and then, you keep gaining more XP than them until you catch up. And then, when they are a Wizard 5 you are a Wizard 5 with Vecna Blooded.

LA Buyoff is free power because you can slap a +1 LA template on and buy it off, and then catch up to everyone, not because it makes +4 LA playable.

That's poor design on many levels. It's poor design in that +1 LA is free after a certain point, and it's poor design in that +4 LA is still always and forever worthless. Which is why I don't use LA buyoff rules and don't advocate anyone else use them, and I instead work on custom monster classes or races if someone wants to be a monster.

[Ruethgar]

I'm going B to have to agree with Beheld's interpretation here, however technically the EXP isn't expended so you immediately level up again, but that needs to be remedied and the simplist and nearest RAW is to spend the EXP like a magic item or what have you.

It does not increase ECL because of the oft quoted line about not increasing character level normally, but because later it specifically forbids it to advance non-class abilities, which would include ECL.

[Segev]

LA buyoff rules are a little open to interpretation, because they're deliberately fuzzy. That said, they generally state that you can buy off the LA 3xLA levels after you gain that LA.

For most creatures, that means your first LA buyoff is 3xLA levels into your build. So the LA +4 guy can buy it off at level 12+4, or 16. And that gets him down to LA +3, with character level 12. He now has to wait another 9 levels to buy off his new LA of +3.

Your hypothetical Wizard who adds the Vecna-blooded template voluntarily at level 3 now has a +1 LA, which he gained at level 3 (and is now ECL 4). He must gain 3 levels (putting him at ECL 7) before he can buy it off (dropping him to ECL 6, but behind on XP compared to the party that is ECL - and probably character level - 7).



As for Bloodlines, the thing about them NOT actually raising your ECL is that they give specific benefits when you take the Bloodline levels. These benefits are meant to be mere consolation prizes compared to actually gaining real levels, but they do have some merit in and of themselves. Most importantly, they grant +1 level to all class features that rely on class level directly. So anything that references caster level, class level, etc. in its formulae gets increased by one. This includes things like Eldrich Blast, Hellfire Blast, maximum Essentia investment, bonus PP from high Ability score, all caster and manifester levels, some classes' sneak attack (and equivalent), and other things from PrCs with their own unique resources that are usually limited by the PrC's limited number of levels.

This is good enough to be worth having on its own, even if it costs you a legitimate hit die by being, in effect, a level adjustment. i.e. a single bloodline level on a 3-HD creature makes it an ECL 4 character. At least for certain builds. If it literally just is some XP cost at level 3, so you're a few XP behind until you "catch up," but you gain all of that? It's a no-brainer benefit. And that's ignoring whatever goodies the bloodline itself gives you.

[Beheld]

LA buyoff rules are a little open to interpretation, because they're deliberately fuzzy. That said, they generally state that you can buy off the LA 3xLA levels after you gain that LA.

For most creatures, that means your first LA buyoff is 3xLA levels into your build. So the LA +4 guy can buy it off at level 12+4, or 16. And that gets him down to LA +3, with character level 12. He now has to wait another 9 levels to buy off his new LA of +3.

Your hypothetical Wizard who adds the Vecna-blooded template voluntarily at level 3 now has a +1 LA, which he gained at level 3 (and is now ECL 4). He must gain 3 levels (putting him at ECL 7) before he can buy it off (dropping him to ECL 6, but behind on XP compared to the party that is ECL - and probably character level - 7).


Except that the rules don't say any of that anywhere at any point and they say exactly what I said they say:


Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1.

Do your 3 class levels count as 3 times your 1 LA? Congratulations, you can reduce your LA to zero. The rules for how to reduce LA a second time don't apply to reducing it the first time, so you can't use them that way. Which is probably why they make no sense if you try to apply them that way.


As for Bloodlines, the thing about them NOT actually raising your ECL is that they give specific benefits when you take the Bloodline levels. These benefits are meant to be mere consolation prizes compared to actually gaining real levels, but they do have some merit in and of themselves. Most importantly, they grant +1 level to all class features that rely on class level directly. So anything that references caster level, class level, etc. in its formulae gets increased by one. This includes things like Eldrich Blast, Hellfire Blast, maximum Essentia investment, bonus PP from high Ability score, all caster and manifester levels, some classes' sneak attack (and equivalent), and other things from PrCs with their own unique resources that are usually limited by the PrC's limited number of levels.

This is good enough to be worth having on its own, even if it costs you a legitimate hit die by being, in effect, a level adjustment. i.e. a single bloodline level on a 3-HD creature makes it an ECL 4 character. At least for certain builds. If it literally just is some XP cost at level 3, so you're a few XP behind until you "catch up," but you gain all of that? It's a no-brainer benefit. And that's ignoring whatever goodies the bloodline itself gives you.

Yes, Either Bloodlines are free power for nothing (Which by the way, they always are, what happens if you start play at level 1 with a minor bloodline? Answer: You get free power and the campaign ends before you ever take a Bloodline level) or they are mediocre garbage.

The claim that Bloodline levels are good because they advance PrC class features past the point they are even written is both specious, because there is no actual rules argument that they do that (also no rules argument they don't, it's just "make up whatever you want" in both cases) and also a really bad argument for why it was supposed to be balanced as scaling LA by intention, since Hellfire Warlock and Abjurant Champion didn't exist, and no other PrC actually grants anything you could even being to care about scaling higher than the 10 or whatever that they already have.

In either case, Bloodline advancement is poorly written and poorly designed, and you should either just give everyone one at no cost, or never ever use them at all.

[Andorn]

I'm going B to have to agree with Beheld's interpretation here, however technically the EXP isn't expended so you immediately level up again, but that needs to be remedied and the simplist and nearest RAW is to spend the EXP like a magic item or what have you.

It does not increase ECL because of the oft quoted line about not increasing character level normally, but because later it specifically forbids it to advance non-class abilities, which would include ECL.

Well, that's how I treat it, but that is how I treat gaining a level, too, not as a running total. I'm working on a gestalt system, where you can have multiple gestalt classes but pay for them, at a reduced rate of XP since you don't get additional hit dice, save bonuses overlap, can only get int bonus on skills once per level, etc. Your XP goes into a "bank", and you expend it, for level buyoff, gaining a level, for rituals, item creation, casting certain spells, etc. It is more intuitive, and consistent.

[Andorn]

"The creature loses all distinguishing
characteristics, hair, and other traits, keeping only a small,
thin mouth, the faintest trace of a nose, and eyes. These
changes are permanent and remain even after the creature
loses this template."

I think someone watched too many Harry Potter movies, that sounds like Voldemort.

To gain Vecna-Blooded, you have to "unravel the Seven Riddles of Vecna". I don't even know what those are, but no player in my game is going to do it at first level. In fact, the entry says you have to have 2nd level spells (yeah, yeah, Precocious Apprentice, fine, burn a feat for a 2nd level spell slot, in the long run it would be a poor trade, except for the +2 spellcraft, to make counter-spelling easier).

Hmm, if everybody forgets about you, you have no friends/contacts. Any time you need help, you have nobody to aid you. That's a pretty big weakness.

[Andorn]

Some systems respond a little differently though. Look at Binder's prestige classes: it's their text that specifies their class levels stack with Binder for determining your EBL. So if you are, for example, Binder 7 / Knight of the Sacred Seal 1 with one bloodline level, your EBL is 10. 8 from Binder, 2 from KOSS.

Other prestige classes may behave this way as well, I haven't looked. I'd also not be surprised if a DM house ruled this away.

Well, I'd look at bloodline levels as a level bonus, it cannot stack with itself. It does apply to prestige classes, for those abilities where prestige class level determine how effective a prestige power is, but it is a bonus, not an actual level. Some prestige classes have spell tables, you don't get more spells, or more abilities, but your spells/abilities are one (or more) level(s) better.

That is extremely powerful in the long run.

[Ruethgar]

To gain Vecna-Blooded, you have to "unravel the Seven Riddles of Vecna". I don't even know what those are, but no player in my game is going to do it at first level. In fact, the entry says you have to have 2nd level spells (yeah, yeah, Precocious Apprentice, fine, burn a feat for a 2nd level spell slot, in the long run it would be a poor trade, except for the +2 spellcraft, to make counter-spelling easier).

Hmm, if everybody forgets about you, you have no friends/contacts. Any time you need help, you have nobody to aid you. That's a pretty big weakness.

Except that savage species means any ol' wish or wizard can apply the template to you. Pazuzu I choose you!

[Beheld]

"The creature loses all distinguishing
characteristics, hair, and other traits, keeping only a small,
thin mouth, the faintest trace of a nose, and eyes. These
changes are permanent and remain even after the creature
loses this template."

I think someone watched too many Harry Potter movies, that sounds like Voldemort.

To gain Vecna-Blooded, you have to "unravel the Seven Riddles of Vecna". I don't even know what those are, but no player in my game is going to do it at first level. In fact, the entry says you have to have 2nd level spells (yeah, yeah, Precocious Apprentice, fine, burn a feat for a 2nd level spell slot, in the long run it would be a poor trade, except for the +2 spellcraft, to make counter-spelling easier).

Hmm, if everybody forgets about you, you have no friends/contacts. Any time you need help, you have nobody to aid you. That's a pretty big weakness.

Not being able to take the Template at level 1 is a bonus not a penalty if you are using it as free power by LA buyoff. You take it at level 3 (you know, when you can cast 2nd level spells) and then immediately buy it off, so you always gain the same or more XP as everyone else in the party (allowing you to catch up).

I mean, you can do that same thing with inherited +1 LA template, but you gain XP slower before the LA buyoff, so it takes longer to catch up. Once you catch up, you are still free extra power, but templates you can apply at a specific level for +1 LA, like level 3, ideally, are the free power for nothing templates, since you never even gain XP slower at all.

[Andorn]

"It doesn't raise your level like normal class levels" doesn't mean "it doesn't count as a level nor raise your ECL." The two statements are not (necessarily) equivalent. The latter COULD be one way the former is true, but there are other ways the former can be true.


That's not what it says. It says "Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below)."



Such as, "This doesn't behave like a normal level, in that it doesn't give you a new hit die nor skills nor BAB nor saves."


Again, not what it says. "A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks.

Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level)."



If "bloodline levels" didn't count as an actual level in your ECL, there would be no reason for them to give the "lesser" benefits they do grant (advancing CL, etc.).


That doesn't hold water. There are plenty of feats and class abilities that advance caster level, without adding to ECL.



In fact, if they do all of that and cost you nothing but a couple thousand XP, then they're flat-out better than regular levels, so taking a Bloodline is 100% positive with no drawback. D&D's game design does not typically work that way (at least not intentionally).


I think that is overstating the case. You have to spend the XP, and you don't get a hit die (and con bonus), saves, BAB, etc for it.



It is very clear that the intent (yes, yes, RAI is not RAW) was to have the "bloodline levels" be a cost paid by the PC for the powers of the bloodline. Since there is disagreement over what the RAW means, and given the discussion I opened this post with, the clear intent actually is a useful guideline for how to interpret the RAW.

That is, that bloodline levels ARE levels, they DO increase your ECL and DO make you unable to gain 20 HD pre-Epic. They are not "like normal levels" because they don't offer HD, skills, BAB, feats, or stat boosts. They were written before "monster progressions," or they might have been likened to the levels of monster progressions that don't come with HD advancement.


Since the text explicitly states what is affected, I don't think we should read into it things that aren't there. Since it explicitly states "levels of 'bloodline' do not increase a character's character level', we should take it at it's word, especially when it also says "a static level adjustment doesn't truly reflect this difference". Clearly, the intent is to NOT apply an increase in ECL, since the abilities are gained gradually. Instead, the power from the bloodline levels is paid for by cumulative XP costs.



Bloodline levels are actually really useful for some builds. They boost some class features which are normally limited by the cap on the PrC's level. They can advance multiple CLs and other "class level" counters simultaneously (letting you advance, as a less-than-optimal example, the monk's stunning fist and the sorcerer's caster level and the paladin's smite evil level-based bonus with a single level). But they ARE levels.


Essentially, you have two valid readings of the RAW. One is in line with the clear intent of what was written, treating bloodline levels as at least a mild sacrifice to "pay" for the bloodline. The other only makes Bloodlines more powerful and less balanced. Which do you think is the correct reading to go with?

The real problem is taking all your bloodline levels at level 1, when the XP cost is 1K a pop. If you have to spread them out (and take them later), you'll pay more XP total for the power boost you get. For example, if you take your bloodline levels at levels 3, 6, and 9, you'll pay a total of 18,000 XP for the power you get. Also, it keeps people from stacking all the skill rank gains at level 1, so it can't be abused for PrC entry.

[Andorn]

Did you just say that bloodline levels are a better deal than LA by comparing them to an LA+6 race?


No, that is not what I said. I said I was confused by his post, I couldn't see any relevance between him talking about level buyoff and the bloodline levels stuff. I gave a hard example of level buyoff both to illustrate what *I* meant about it, and secondarily to demonstrate how broken it is. Off-topic, but perhaps useful all the same.



Beheld just compared bloodlines to LA Buyoff "at level 4" giving examples of LA+1 templates.


Which I wasn't clear about, and was even more muddied by his apparent view that level buyoff was somehow free (or at least a super duper deal) in the long run.



Please try to use serious examples. Nobody takes LA +6 templates in optimization discussions unless they're getting something gamebreaking out of it. With LA like that even Phaerimm wouldn't be playable until mid-double digits.

Well, nobody takes a LA+6 because the rules are so broken, that was my point. A LA+6 can be a lot of FUN (remember FUN?), but in a long-term campaign it is a dead end, as written.

Since D&D is a *game*, designed for *FUN*, then people should be able to do stuff that is *FUN*, and the rules should make it workable, but maintain balance.

Taking 3 bloodline levels at level 1, and providing radical early entry to a lot of PrCs is *FUN*, but somewhat broken. Such a character isn't going to become Pun Pun, but it is a bit over the top.

Specifying that you can't stack bloodline levels via the PrC mechanism, and having to spread out taking BL so you pay more XP for them seem like sensible changes that prevent abuse, while maintaining the coolness of having an interesting ancestor or two in the family tree.

[AmberVael]

Since the text explicitly states what is affected, I don't think we should read into it things that aren't there.
How can you say this...


Instead, the power from the bloodline levels is paid for by cumulative XP costs.
...and hold this view?

Nothing in the description of bloodlines indicate that they cost XP to acquire.

[dascarletm]

Not being able to take the Template at level 1 is a bonus not a penalty if you are using it as free power by LA buyoff. You take it at level 3 (you know, when you can cast 2nd level spells) and then immediately buy it off, so you always gain the same or more XP as everyone else in the party (allowing you to catch up).
Minor Nitpick
Technically you can buy it off at 4. You can choose to delay the leveling upon leveling up to buyoff the LA, not after you have leveled. If you acquire the template after gaining level 3, and the ability to get 2nd level spells you have already taken the level.

[Andorn]

The LA buyoff rules are absolutely terrible. One of them is that the more LA you have (and thus the more you need buyoff) the longer before you can use it. So a +6 LA race can literally never buyoff even one LA, so obviously +6 LA is not the way you compare LA buyoff, since it's literally identical to no LA buyoff.

LA buyoff is free power for nothing at 1 LA.

You are a Wizard 1 with no LA. You take Wizard 2, then Wizard 3. Now you are a level 3 character with X XP. In a world of LA buyoff, when you get enough XP, instead of taking a level, what you should do instead is turn yourself into a Vecna Blooded. That's a +1 LA template, but you immediately buy it off. So you gain the same XP as someone with no LA at levels 1-3, and then you gain more XP than them, because you are level 3 and they are level 4, and then, you keep gaining more XP than them until you catch up. And then, when they are a Wizard 5 you are a Wizard 5 with Vecna Blooded.

LA Buyoff is free power because you can slap a +1 LA template on and buy it off, and then catch up to everyone, not because it makes +4 LA playable.

That's poor design on many levels. It's poor design in that +1 LA is free after a certain point, and it's poor design in that +4 LA is still always and forever worthless. Which is why I don't use LA buyoff rules and don't advocate anyone else use them, and I instead work on custom monster classes or races if someone wants to be a monster.

Well, it sounds like your problem is more with the mechanics of LA+1, because it can be comparatively easy to deal with, than the concept as a whole. So, what if you can buyoff right away, but at a more meaningful price, like 2X level? Suppose you have to wait a minimum number of levels? That would make the XP cost higher, when the option finally becomes available.

BTW, on the whole, I still can't see why anybody would take Vecna-Blooded. Sure, being ignored 50% of the time in combat is powerful. But it only lasts for 60 seconds. The other costs, like being forgotten by everybody, can be a detriment. Your wizard guild no longer has you listed as a member, so you don't get your bonus spells for being a Collegiate Wizard, for example. Yech.

Why do monsters never RUN AWAY for a few minutes, when they are faced with a caster who activates powers? Just stay away until the spells expire. Go through a door, close it, and spike it shut. Come back in 10 minutes and kill the wimp whose spells are now down.

[Segev]

Do your 3 class levels count as 3 times your 1 LA? Congratulations, you can reduce your LA to zero. The rules for how to reduce LA a second time don't apply to reducing it the first time, so you can't use them that way. Which is probably why they make no sense if you try to apply them that way.If you apply your logic this way, the rest of the rules that the section you quote from go on to give are contradictory, since, for instance, if you have an LA of +2 and have 6 class levels, you can buy off a level of LA to get to +1. By your logic, you don't now have to wait another 3 levels (despite the examples saying you do; examples are not rules) to buy off the +1; go ahead and do it now. After all, your 6 class levels are more than three times your +1 LA.




The claim that Bloodline levels are good because they advance PrC class features past the point they are even written is both specious, because there is no actual rules argument that they do thatExcept they do. They explicitly advance anything determined by class level. Hellfire Blast, the Fate points of the Fatebinder, and even things like sneak attack in some PrCs all have, in the TEXT of the ability, "you gain X per Y levels of [PrC]."


and also a really bad argument for why it was supposed to be balanced as scaling LA by intention, since Hellfire Warlock and Abjurant Champion didn't exist, and no other PrC actually grants anything you could even being to care about scaling higher than the 10 or whatever that they already have.Oh, sure. I wasn't arguing intention. I am, however, arguing that it is the proper way to read it, and that it is also the more balanced way to read it.

Though since there existed PrCs already which advanced other things (heck, I think the Fatebinder was already out, though I could be wrong), it's not impossible - merely highly unlikely - that the authors of Bloodlines took them into account.


In either case, Bloodline advancement is poorly written and poorly designed, and you should either just give everyone one at no cost, or never ever use them at all.The first part, I agree with. The second part is your opinion, to which you are welcome, but with which I do not agree.


That's not what it says. It says "Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below)."Note how the complete clause is "do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does," not (as it would have to be for the point against which I am arguing to be true) "do not increase a character's effective character level at all."

My point is simply that a character with, say, 3 levels of Wizard and a gold dragon bloodline level is ECL 4, and earns XP as a 4th level and has to have enough XP to reach 5th level before he can take a 4th level of Wizard or multiclass to any other class.




Again, not what it says. "A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks.

Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level)."The second paragraph in your quote says exactly what I'm alleging: you include bloodline levels when calculating character abilities based on class levels. It goes on to list examples, but "such as" does not mean nor even imply an exhaustive list. So anything a class says you calculate based on levels in that class counts your bloodline levels.

If you have one Fate point per level of Fatebinder according to Fatebinder, and have 5 levels of Fatebinder and 3 Bloodline levels, you have 8 Fate points. If Sneaky Bastard gives you +1d6 sneak attack per level of that class, and you have 5 levels of Sneaky Bastard as well as your 5 levels of Fatebinder and 3 Bloodline levels, you have 8 Fate points and 8d6 Sneak Attack.



Since the text explicitly states what is affected, I don't think we should read into it things that aren't there. Since it explicitly states "levels of 'bloodline' do not increase a character's character level',we should take it at it's word, especially when it also says "a static level adjustment doesn't truly reflect this difference". Clearly, the intent is to NOT apply an increase in ECL, since the abilities are gained gradually. Instead, the power from the bloodline levels is paid for by cumulative XP costs.Except that's not what it says, nor does the intent even imply as such. What it says, which you cut off with your selective editing, is that it does not increase character level like a normal level. It then lists what things a normal level gives that it does not, as well as what things it does give, including things which a normal level would not.

To whit: it doesn't increase HD, grant skill points, or any class features of its own. It does increase skill rank cap (an important hint on its own that it increases ECL, since otherwise it would be a prime candidate for early entry tricks relying on dodging skill rank prerequisites), and for all class features which calculate their numbers on levels in said class, he counts the Bloodline as part of that class.

That last part is the only thing that's acknowledged as even remotely an active plus (rather than a mitigation of a minus) for a bloodline level over a normal class level. Everything else is phrased as if it were just trying to avoid having this "empty" level interrupt normal advancement mechanics (e.g. having enough ranks of a skill to get into a particular PrC at its intended time).

The intent is pretty clear to me, and the rules more thoroughly support without having to read words that aren't there, that a "bloodline level" is, in fact, a LEVEL, and counts as such in your ECL. It may not raise your character level in the same way that other levels do, but it definitely raises it. It just does specifically-listed things differently than a normal one would.



The real problem is taking all your bloodline levels at level 1, when the XP cost is 1K a pop. If you have to spread them out (and take them later), you'll pay more XP total for the power boost you get. For example, if you take your bloodline levels at levels 3, 6, and 9, you'll pay a total of 18,000 XP for the power you get. Also, it keeps people from stacking all the skill rank gains at level 1, so it can't be abused for PrC entry.This has its own drawbacks, most notably being that you are effectively stalling yourself out at low level. A DM would be within his rights to insist that a character built at a higher level take bloodlines at the last level possible before suffering penalties. Otherwise, if a player wants to do this in actual play...meh. That's their choice. They're playing a level 1 PC with a level adjustment of +1 to +3 in a level 2-4 game, and barely anything more to show for it over being a raw level 1 PC.

[Beheld]

Minor Nitpick
Technically you can buy it off at 4. You can choose to delay the leveling upon leveling up to buyoff the LA, not after you have leveled. If you acquire the template after gaining level 3, and the ability to get 2nd level spells you have already taken the level.

You can buy it off at level 3, you can't buy it off at level 4 (well you can, but that would require gaining enough XP to be level 5 without LA for no reason). If you acquire the template before you hit level 4, then when you get enough XP to level you have enough XP to buy it off.

You hit 3, you do some adventuring and get XP, and before you hit level 4, you get LA and buy it off. Why you would refuse to buy it off until you are a level 4 Wizard ECL 5 I have no idea.


Well, it sounds like your problem is more with the mechanics of LA+1, because it can be comparatively easy to deal with, than the concept as a whole. So, what if you can buyoff right away, but at a more meaningful price, like 2X level? Suppose you have to wait a minimum number of levels? That would make the XP cost higher, when the option finally becomes available.

No, it sounds like my problem is with every aspect of LA buyoff, since I just now in this thread called LA Buyoff bad design because of how it applies later to higher LA as well.

Buyoff is either free power for nothing, or it's absolute garbage. Making it absolute garbage all the time wouldn't make it better.

XP costs are never a workable balance mechanic, because you gain more XP if you spend XP in the past.


BTW, on the whole, I still can't see why anybody would take Vecna-Blooded. Sure, being ignored 50% of the time in combat is powerful. But it only lasts for 60 seconds. The other costs, like being forgotten by everybody, can be a detriment. Your wizard guild no longer has you listed as a member, so you don't get your bonus spells for being a Collegiate Wizard, for example. Yech.

Because you want to be immune to Divination? Because you if people can't remember you than they can't hold grudges either, and that's a lot more important to your average Wizard than having friends (since you can make friends)?


Why do monsters never RUN AWAY for a few minutes, when they are faced with a caster who activates powers? Just stay away until the spells expire. Go through a door, close it, and spike it shut. Come back in 10 minutes and kill the wimp whose spells are now down.

Uh... They do... This seems completely unrelated to the rest of the thread, but the obvious answer is because they do when they are in a situation where that is both useful and possible, except that most people run monsters like idiots on purpose because otherwise the party will die.


If you apply your logic this way, the rest of the rules that the section you quote from go on to give are contradictory, since, for instance, if you have an LA of +2 and have 6 class levels, you can buy off a level of LA to get to +1. By your logic, you don't now have to wait another 3 levels (despite the examples saying you do; examples are not rules) to buy off the +1; go ahead and do it now. After all, your 6 class levels are more than three times your +1 LA.

The rules for how to reduce LA a second time don't apply to reducing it the first time, so you can't use them that way. Which is probably why they make no sense if you try to apply them that way.

The rules explicitly state that for reducing the adjustment the second time you have to calculate from the characters current adjustment and level. But a character who gains a template at some advanced level cannot possibly ever calculate from his current level, because additional levels from his last buyoff is a null value. You are choosing to make up that is from when he gained the LA, but that both isn't what the rules say, and also would make the rules cease to function altogether, because they still gained all their LA at the same time.


Except they do. They explicitly advance anything determined by class level. Hellfire Blast, the Fate points of the Fatebinder, and even things like sneak attack in some PrCs all have, in the TEXT of the ability, "you gain X per Y levels of [PrC]."

But the bloodline level text does not in fact, grant you the ability to exceed the actual cap of the PrC. Whether or not you can do that is basically nonsense. You can't say the rules allow you to do that, because they don't, and you can't say the prohibit it, because they don't. Instead they just do not compute.

What happens when you are Hellfire Warlock 4 is not that you have 8d6 hellfire blast, it's that you are never hellfire warlock 4. So you can't say that class features that only apply to 3 levels by RAW apply past that, they just require you to make up content, which fine, whatever, you have to do that so you do that, but it's not RAW.

[torrasque666]

The rules explicitly state that for reducing the adjustment the second time you have to calculate from the characters current adjustment and level. But a character who gains a template at some advanced level cannot possibly ever calculate from his current level, because additional levels from his last buyoff is a null value. You are choosing to make up that is from when he gained the LA, but that both isn't what the rules say, and also would make the rules cease to function altogether, because they still gained all their LA at the same time.

Actually, for all playable creatures other than humans (who don't actually have a statblock anywhere) they have an LA, even if its +0. Go ahead, look through the Monster Manual. Even the races from the Player's Handbook have an LA (again, except for humans because they don't have a statblock) So if you take an acquired template later on it does in fact set it to the level it was taken at.

[Beheld]

Actually, for all playable creatures other than humans (who don't actually have a statblock anywhere) they have an LA, even if its +0. Go ahead, look through the Monster Manual. Even the races from the Player's Handbook have an LA (again, except for humans because they don't have a statblock) So if you take an acquired template later on it does in fact set it to the level it was taken at.

If you increase your LA from 0 to 1, you still didn't buyoff LA in the past, so you can't possibly gain three class levels from the last time you bought off LA. Because the last time you bought off LA was never.

[Andorn]

Yes, Either Bloodlines are free power for nothing (Which by the way, they always are, what happens if you start play at level 1 with a minor bloodline? Answer: You get free power and the campaign ends before you ever take a Bloodline level) or they are mediocre garbage.


Hmm, I think we have different ideas about what "campaign" means. My last campaign ran for 4 years. Players started at 3rd level, and were in the mid-20's when people went their separate ways because of RL issues.

I don't see how +2 on a single skill check (1st level benefit of a major bloodline) is going to break the game balance. At second level they get a feat (A human warrior has gotten 3 already at level 2, and he's not what I'd call a world-shaker).

I can sympathize with putting value on principles of game design, but when push comes to shove it's a game, and letting the players have fun trumps ideology. Might as well complain about a level 1 wizard being able to cast spells, he didn't pay for those abilities either. In a fantasy world, in a fantasy game with dozens of races open to players, it is conceivable that half the population has bloodline levels of some sort, who knows?



The claim that Bloodline levels are good because they advance PrC class features past the point they are even written is both specious, because there is no actual rules argument that they do that (also no rules argument they don't, it's just "make up whatever you want" in both cases) and also a really bad argument for why it was supposed to be balanced as scaling LA by intention, since Hellfire Warlock and Abjurant Champion didn't exist, and no other PrC actually grants anything you could even being to care about scaling higher than the 10 or whatever that they already have.


I didn't see anybody claim they were "good". It is clear from the writing that they do advance certain character abilities that can make entering PrCs easier. I honestly think the game designers intended this. After all, they COULD have put fixed character level limits on entering PrCs, but they have chosen not to; instead, most PrCs are entered based on the character's in-game abilities (rather like real life in that respect, some people become qualified for jobs earlier in life than others).



In either case, Bloodline advancement is poorly written and poorly designed, and you should either just give everyone one at no cost, or never ever use them at all.

All or nothing, huh? That's a false dichotomy. Most people who like the spirit of a feature, but not its implementation, discuss the mechanics and the merits, and find a way to alter it so it works for them.

Bloodline level mechanics could certainly have benefited from some critical thought up front. What is even worse, how they integrate with various lines of HERITAGE feats is even murkier. There are literally dozens of draconic feats, for example. Does having bloodline levels qualify a player to take them? What is the difference between a half-dragon, a draconic character, a dragonblooded character, someone with the dragonblood subtype, and someone with a dragon bloodline?

[Andorn]

Not being able to take the Template at level 1 is a bonus not a penalty if you are using it as free power by LA buyoff. You take it at level 3 (you know, when you can cast 2nd level spells) and then immediately buy it off, so you always gain the same or more XP as everyone else in the party (allowing you to catch up).


I *think* I see your point? If the player is level 3, they are pre-qualified to buy off LA+1, because they have already gained the levels. However, it will cost them 3,000 XP, while the rest of the party gains level 4, leaving them a level behind. Over time they will gain ground, but it is only LA+1, not that big a deal.



I mean, you can do that same thing with inherited +1 LA template, but you gain XP slower before the LA buyoff, so it takes longer to catch up. Once you catch up, you are still free extra power, but templates you can apply at a specific level for +1 LA, like level 3, ideally, are the free power for nothing templates, since you never even gain XP slower at all.

Suffering under a level adjustment while you try to gain the XP to level is a LOT harder.

That "free" power was paid for with the XP you spent to buy that level off. The only difference between that and gaining a level is you now XP a little faster (but that speed is only relative to the rest of the group). But typically the powers you get for a LA+1 template ought to be less than what you get when you gain an actual level, so that seems fair to me.

If the power you got for that LA+1 turns out to be worth more, then maybe the level adjustment was too low. Maybe your Vecna thing ought to be LA+2. Or LA+3. After all, the person is automatically informed of lots of information about anybody attempting to scry them, no saving throws or anything. Information disappears out of books and memory all over the multiverse, no saves allowed. The scope of those changes is gargantuan, well beyond wish magic in my book, LA+1 is too low.

What if the person doing the scrying is an agent of someone else? What if they are wearing a disguise? What if they are under a mind blank or non-detection? What if they are wearing a lead-lined helmet? What if they are polymorphed? What if they are a multiclass charlatan who is advanced enough to defeat alignment detection?

How would someone even try to scry them, if all memory of the person has been removed from the multiverse? That is internally inconsistent.

[Beheld]

Hmm, I think we have different ideas about what "campaign" means. My last campaign ran for 4 years. Players started at 3rd level, and were in the mid-20's when people went their separate ways because of RL issues.

I don't see how +2 on a single skill check (1st level benefit of a major bloodline) is going to break the game balance. At second level they get a feat (A human warrior has gotten 3 already at level 2, and he's not what I'd call a world-shaker).

Uh... Did you see me say Minor Bloodline? You don't have to take a Bloodline level at all for 12 levels. Most campaigns (and even more, most characters in those campaigns) don't last 12 levels. Instead of different definitions of campaign, maybe I'm drawing from a larger sample size than one campaign.


I can sympathize with putting value on principles of game design, but when push comes to shove it's a game, and letting the players have fun trumps ideology. Might as well complain about a level 1 wizard being able to cast spells, he didn't pay for those abilities either.

Except that he did, he paid a class level into Wizard to get the Wizard abilities.


I didn't see anybody claim they were "good". It is clear from the writing that they do advance certain character abilities that can make entering PrCs easier. I honestly think the game designers intended this. After all, they COULD have put fixed character level limits on entering PrCs, but they have chosen not to; instead, most PrCs are entered based on the character's in-game abilities (rather like real life in that respect, some people become qualified for jobs earlier in life than others).

Well, except they basically did fix character level limits on all PrCs in the form of skill ranks that can only be reached by specific character level PCs. (Except maybe Bloodline levels, but literally nothing else).

But I didn't say anything about qualifying for PrCs earlier, I said advancing PrCs beyond their level caps is the thing that they couldn't have been balancing bloodlines for.


All or nothing, huh? That's a false dichotomy. Most people who like the spirit of a feature, but not its implementation, discuss the mechanics and the merits, and find a way to alter it so it works for them.

Uh... No, it's not a false dichotomy, it's a statement about what you should do with bloodline levels. I have discussed the mechanics and the (lack of merits) of both possible interpretations of Bloodline level advancement. I'm recommending that people not use them, or that if they use them, they use them as costless things that everyone has. Bloodlines aren't worth LA, so that's too much. XP costs as a balancing mechanic are always terrible, so those don't work. Result: Bloodline can't be balanced against levels in the Wizard class, so don't balance them that way.

[Andorn]

How can you say this...


...and hold this view?

Nothing in the description of bloodlines indicate that they cost XP to acquire.

You have to take levels. How do you take a level without an XP cost???

[Beheld]

Suffering under a level adjustment while you try to gain the XP to level is a LOT harder.

...

The only difference between that and gaining a level is you now XP a little faster (but that speed is only relative to the rest of the group).

One the one hand you claim that leveling with LA is SOOOO Painful, on the other hand you immediately say that leveling faster from being a level lower is "only a little faster." Those are literally the same thing, they catch up to you when you have 1 LA exactly as fast as you catch up to them when you are one level down.

You don't catch up eventually, you catch up in a 2 levels. You spend half that time at the same level as them.


But typically the powers you get for a LA+1 template ought to be less than what you get when you gain an actual level, so that seems fair to me.

Uh what? No, a +1 LA template ought to be exactly what you get for an actual level, because it counts as a level!


If the power you got for that LA+1 turns out to be worth more, then maybe the level adjustment was too low. Maybe your Vecna thing ought to be LA+2. Or LA+3. After all, the person is automatically informed of lots of information about anybody attempting to scry them, no saving throws or anything. Information disappears out of books and memory all over the multiverse, no saves allowed. The scope of those changes is gargantuan, well beyond wish magic in my book, LA+1 is too low.

Except that no one would ever take it at 2 LA, and most people wouldn't even take it at 1 LA, it's only worth taking when it's free power because LA Buyoff.


You have to take levels. How do you take a level without an XP cost???

Taking levels in Wizard doesn't have an XP cost. When you have Y XP, and you are level 3 and then you become level 4, you still have Y XP.

[Andorn]

My point is simply that a character with, say, 3 levels of Wizard and a gold dragon bloodline level is ECL 4, and earns XP as a 4th level and has to have enough XP to reach 5th level before he can take a 4th level of Wizard or multiclass to any other class.


I disagree, for two reasons. First, because they enumerated everything else it did. If it had this effect, they would have said so. Second, at the very beginning it says "Because the power gain is gradual over a span of twenty levels, a static level adjustment doesn't truly reflect this difference." It is clear they specifically intended to avoid giving an ECL adjustment.



The second paragraph in your quote says exactly what I'm alleging: you include bloodline levels when calculating character abilities based on class levels. It goes on to list examples, but "such as" does not mean nor even imply an exhaustive list. So anything a class says you calculate based on levels in that class counts your bloodline levels.


But this isn't (usually) much more powerful than feats or class abilities that also give higher effective caster levels. Those feats/abilities don't give an ECL adjustment when the character gets them. Of course, the feat is usually part of gaining a full level, but that level comes with a lot of other stuff...hit points, saving throws, BAB, more spells, higher level spells, etc. Someone with a bloodline level doesn't get all that stuff, so they don't get treated as being a higher level.

As a concrete example, consider a caster who gains a level, and takes the feat Focused Specialist. Now they can expend their focus while casting a spell, for +1 CL. So, they gained one CL on their spell when they levelled, but also a second effective level because of the feat. Yet they didn't gain two levels to their ECL, only one.

Other examples:
Initiate of Boccob: +1 CL on divinations.
Initiate of Selune: Augury and Divination, +5 CL
Superior Summons: +1 CL with summoning spells
Sanctum Spells: +1 CL within your sanctum
Arcane Thesis: +2 CL with a single spell (wish makes a whole lot of sense for Dwoemerkeeper)
Spell Thematics: +1 CL to one spell for each level of spells (probably stacks with feats like Thesis)
Ship's Mage: +1 CL on bonded ship
Storm Magic: +1 CL in a storm (control weather, anybody?)

There are numerous feats for expending bardic song to gain caster levels for you or your allies. I think there are feats to expend turning attempts, too. None of these give an ECL.



If you have one Fate point per level of Fatebinder according to Fatebinder, and have 5 levels of Fatebinder and 3 Bloodline levels, you have 8 Fate points. If Sneaky Bastard gives you +1d6 sneak attack per level of that class, and you have 5 levels of Sneaky Bastard as well as your 5 levels of Fatebinder and 3 Bloodline levels, you have 8 Fate points and 8d6 Sneak Attack.


Wow, synergy! Rock on! Errr, did you make those classes up? Soooo many PrCs, even google can't find them all.



Except that's not what it says, nor does the intent even imply as such. What it says, which you cut off with your selective editing, is that it does not increase character level like a normal level. It then lists what things a normal level gives that it does not, as well as what things it does give, including things which a normal level would not.


Well, I wasn't trying to be nefarious or deceptive, I got tired typing. Normal levels raise your CL, bloodline levels don't. That is the only difference possible, unless you're going to apply a LA (and let people buy it off?). I think the meaning is clear, even if the literary skills of the writer left something to be desired.

I hope you aren't going to argue that their intent was to make you spend XP for a level, be treated as a character of one level higher, but NOT get a hit die, BAB, saving throws, class abilities, an allotment of skill points? If you are going to treat the character as one level higher on their CL after getting a bloodline level, then that is exactly what you are doing.



To whit: it doesn't increase HD, grant skill points, or any class features of its own. It does increase skill rank cap (an important hint on its own that it increases ECL, since otherwise it would be a prime candidate for early entry tricks relying on dodging skill rank prerequisites), and for all class features which calculate their numbers on levels in said class, he counts the Bloodline as part of that class.


No. See my previous paragraph. You've made them take a full level, and gotten far less than a real level gives. That makes even less sense than other stuff people have argued, or the text itself.



That last part is the only thing that's acknowledged as even remotely an active plus (rather than a mitigation of a minus) for a bloodline level over a normal class level. Everything else is phrased as if it were just trying to avoid having this "empty" level interrupt normal advancement mechanics (e.g. having enough ranks of a skill to get into a particular PrC at its intended time).


Well, real character levels give them more ranks. If you are going to treat bloodline levels as real levels, then the character should get the HD, BAB, saves, skill points, and levels of class skills. Since they don't, it's not a character level.

[Andorn]

XP costs are never a workable balance mechanic, because you gain more XP if you spend XP in the past.


Well, XP is the main mechanic for D&D. You gain XP, you train, you gain levels for that XP. However you do the accounting to keep track of what level you are and how much you need to gain the next level (one big total or level by level expenditure) the effect is identical. You gain levels, higher levels require more XP, and encounters give more XP. So, you get more XP in the future for having gained XP in the past to get better abilities. That is how it works.



But the bloodline level text does not in fact, grant you the ability to exceed the actual cap of the PrC. Whether or not you can do that is basically nonsense. You can't say the rules allow you to do that, because they don't, and you can't say the prohibit it, because they don't. Instead they just do not compute.


Good point to bring up. What makes sense to me is PrCs with 10+ levels can be extended once you reach epic level. At that point, I guess their abilities could be extended by bloodline levels, but not until a player reaches level 21.

[Andorn]

One the one hand you claim that leveling with LA is SOOOO Painful, on the other hand you immediately say that leveling faster from being a level lower is "only a little faster." Those are literally the same thing, they catch up to you when you have 1 LA exactly as fast as you catch up to them when you are one level down.


No, they aren't the same thing. Consider a level 1 pixie sorcerer. When you adventure under the burden of a level adjustment, you gain less XP than the group you are with, AND you require more XP to gain a level. THEN you spend a bunch of XP to buy the LA down, putting you even farther behind. All to achieve XP parity. This leaves you multiple levels behind for an extended period.

In your example, where you already have the levels at the time you acquire a template and associated level adjustment, you can just spend the XP immediately. You gained the XP at parity with the group. You gained the levels at their lowest XP cost. At most you lose 1 level in comparison to the party when you buy off the LA+1. You will now XP faster, being a level lower than the party. However, if you were 2, 3, 4 levels behind the party, that is a much bigger problem. Lacking a significant number of hit dice, you are a lot more fragile.

The difficulty of the two situations is radically different.

[Beheld]

No, they aren't the same thing. Consider a level 1 pixie sorcerer. When you adventure under the burden of a level adjustment, you gain less XP than the group you are with, AND you require more XP to gain a level. THEN you spend a bunch of XP to buy the LA down, putting you even farther behind. All to achieve XP parity. This leaves you multiple levels behind for an extended period.

In your example, where you already have the levels at the time you acquire a template and associated level adjustment, you can just spend the XP immediately. You gained the XP at parity with the group. You gained the levels at their lowest XP cost. At most you lose 1 level in comparison to the party when you buy off the LA+1. You will now XP faster, being a level lower than the party. However, if you were 2, 3, 4 levels behind the party, that is a much bigger problem. Lacking a significant number of hit dice, you are a lot more fragile.

The difficulty of the two situations is radically different.

Once again, you keep using huge LA instead of actually comparable numbers.

If you are a Aasimar... well obviously, you get literally nothing for that LA, because that LA is garbage, but you as a level 1 Wizard with 1 LA gain XP slightly slower than the other party members. If on the other hand, you are a level 3 Wizard and they are they are a level 4 Wizard, then you gain XP faster at the exact same rate that you got it slower at level 1. Since 1-3 is 3000XP, and 4-5 is 5000XP, you will have caught back up all the XP you lost for a slower progression before LA buyoff before they even get to level 5. You still have to catch up the actual LA buyoff amount (3000XP), but since you will be gaining XP faster at all points that you aren't the same level as them from now on, you will catch that up pretty quick too, certainly I expect you to spend most of level 7 adventureing with a level 7 party.

Of course, it may also be the case that according to the rules, an Aasimar level 1 Wizard starts the game with 1000XP, the rules are somewhat unclear on whether those rules apply to the player or not.

[bekeleven]

No, that is not what I said. I said I was confused by his post, I couldn't see any relevance between him talking about level buyoff and the bloodline levels stuff. I gave a hard example of level buyoff both to illustrate what *I* meant about it, and secondarily to demonstrate how broken it is. Off-topic, but perhaps useful all the same.So we're discussing how broken options are. Basically, their power levels. OK.

Well, nobody takes a LA+6 because the rules are so broken, that was my point.Yeah. That's why nobody takes LA+6 in optimization exercises, cool to see that we're on the same page.

A LA+6 can be a lot of FUN (remember FUN?), but in a long-term campaign it is a dead end, as written.

Since D&D is a *game*, designed for *FUN*, then people should be able to do stuff that is *FUN*, and the rules should make it workable, but maintain balance.ok, I'm just going to not respond to the rest of this post.

[Pluto!]

This thread uses a lot of words to say that "This pie doesn't taste like the last one did" can - but doesn't necessarily - mean "This pie is flavorless."

[Darrin]

To simplify, as I stated earlier in this thread, there are two methods to "pay" for bloodline levels, assuming the designers did not intend them to count towards ECL. We'll call "count towards ECL" as the third method:

1) Reduce your current XP total by the amount necessary to level up at that level. Similar to LA buyoff or magic item crafting. Easier bookkeeping and less annoying than the second method.

2) Increase the amount of XP you need to level up by N, where N = the total amount of XP you needed to level up when you chose to add your bloodline levels. Requires you to recalculate the standard XP table, so it's confusing and annoying.

3) Bloodline levels count towards ECL. Given how the text makes absolutely no mention of spending/reducing XP or recalculating the XP tables, I'm inclined to consider this as the only 100% RAW method, even if the designers playtested or intended some other method that didn't quite get into print.

I think all avenues of discussion have been thoroughly explored. There is no "One True Interpretation" that is going to make everyone happy. The only thing that remains: Pick which method works best for your group and try it out. In this case, empiricism is likely to trump rationalism, although a universal objective truth will probably remain elusive.

[Crake]

The most sensible interpretation of bloodlines is to just not use them.

[ComaVision]

1) Reduce your current XP total by the amount necessary to level up at that level. Similar to LA buyoff or magic item crafting. Easier bookkeeping and less annoying than the second method.

This is what my group does. I'm currently playing with a Minor bloodline, which I'll pay for with my first "level-up". I bet it won't effect anything in the game, it's just a RP point for me.

I totally would use it for early Mystic Theurge entry in another game though. Bloodlines being potentially broken isn't really a detracting point because I'm playing D&D 3.5 and there wouldn't be any game left if we removed all the potentially abusive parts.

[Andorn]

Once again, you keep using huge LA instead of actually comparable numbers.



I keep talking about huge LA because it is huge LA that is especially broken. An LA of +1 isn't a huge burden, the player can integrate with a party of comparable levels without being woefully behind in HP, BAB, saving throws, skill points, etc. A character with an LA > 3 can't, not very effectively, because of their deficits. They do have some advantages to compensate, but it is really tough to compensate for a lack of hit points, especially.

[Andorn]

3) Bloodline levels count towards ECL. Given how the text makes absolutely no mention of spending/reducing XP or recalculating the XP tables, I'm inclined to consider this as the only 100% RAW method, even if the designers playtested or intended some other method that didn't quite get into print.


If a bloodline level is going to raise the character's level, then why wouldn't they give HP, BAB, saving throws, skill points, and class abilities/new spells with it? That makes no sense. You're making the character a level higher, but with only a minor gain in power, far less than a character would get with a real level. Avoiding that is clearly the intent behind bloodline levels; the text even says so, in a round-about way.

[Beheld]

I keep talking about huge LA because it is huge LA that is especially broken. An LA of +1 isn't a huge burden, the player can integrate with a party of comparable levels without being woefully behind in HP, BAB, saving throws, skill points, etc. A character with an LA > 3 can't, not very effectively, because of their deficits. They do have some advantages to compensate, but it is really tough to compensate for a lack of hit points, especially.

You claim to be contradicting my point that LA buyoff rules are free power for nothing, or non functional, you can't use the nonfunctional parts as proof that I am wrong, because that mean's I'm right.

LA buyoff rules are free power for nothing at LA 1, they are basically non functional at LA 3, at LA 2, they are just like any other dumb thing that is free power at high levels and a crippling handicap at low levels, like the slow trait on Wizards and Sorcerers, or being an Anthrobat Druid (except that the break point is later than level 6), or being an Ancient Druid who only gets bonuses and no penalties.

LA rules suck. LA buyoff rules don't fix any of the problems with LA rules, and introduce a new problem of their own. They also take the obvious worst possible system of LA reduction, making high LA's take forever to reduce or literally never reduce, but giving the low LAs free power for nothing immediately, even though literally reversing that would be better in every way.

Saying "But being a level 1 character with 4 LA still sucks!" doesn't prove me wrong about any of that, it doesn't even contradict anything I said. You can refuse to address anything I said if you want, but if that's your goal, why are you quoting me when you are talking to some other person (or no one) and not addressing anything I said?

[tsj]

The way I interpret bloodlines from reading about them just now is...

Major bloodline : just are forced to take 3 bloodlines levels as part of your 20 levels

Intermediate bloodline : as above but 2 bloodline levels

Minor : as above but 1 level

For example... a major bloodline :

3, 6 and 12 are bloodline levels

So a PC with a class/classes and a major bloodline looks like this

Levels 1 & 2 = regular class levels
Level 3 = bloodline level (with no HD)
Levels 4 & 5 = regular class levels
Level 6 = bloodline level (with no HD)
Levels 7, 8, 9, 10 & 11 = regular class levels
Level 12 = bloodline level (with no HD)
Levels 13+ = regular class levels

So any PC with a major bloodline
and an ECL of 13+ effectively
has a LA of 3 due to his bloodline

So it's like LA but it is enforced at
specific levels

The way I read it, a bloodline does & must affect ECL.

However... the rules seem to indicate that if you skip a bloodline level, you don't get the get new benefits but
you still get to keep the benefits you already got....

So this could in theory allow for free stuff at levels 1 and 2... However as a GM I would rule that a PC MUST take at least the first bloodline level in order to keep any of the benefits...

[rrwoods]

Thinking that LA +1 is free power under the buy off rules tells me you don't have experience with a party containing an LA +1 character. I do, and my experience is that the level adjust and buy off thereof keeps the character pretty much in line with the rest of the party.

Maybe you do have experience with it and it's drastically different for some reason. *shrug*

[Beheld]

Thinking that LA +1 is free power under the buy off rules tells me you don't have experience with a party containing an LA +1 character. I do, and my experience is that the level adjust and buy off thereof keeps the character pretty much in line with the rest of the party.

Maybe you do have experience with it and it's drastically different for some reason. *shrug*

Having played more than one game that started at or went to level 7, I can see that the Difference between a White Dragonspawn Spellscale Sorcerer 7 and a Spellscale Sorcerer 7 is the difference between free power and not free power.

Or a Wizard 5 versus a Lolth Touched Wizard 5 is the difference between not free power, and free power.

[Segev]

But the bloodline level text does not in fact, grant you the ability to exceed the actual cap of the PrC. Whether or not you can do that is basically nonsense. You can't say the rules allow you to do that, because they don't, and you can't say the prohibit it, because they don't. Instead they just do not compute.

What happens when you are Hellfire Warlock 4 is not that you have 8d6 hellfire blast, it's that you are never hellfire warlock 4. So you can't say that class features that only apply to 3 levels by RAW apply past that, they just require you to make up content, which fine, whatever, you have to do that so you do that, but it's not RAW.The Hellfire Warlock class feature - in the text, not the table (and text trumps table) - specifies that you gain +2d6 per class level. It does not specify a cap. Therefore, if you somehow can count as a 4th level Hellfire Warlock, you do, in fact, have 8d6 Hellfire Blast. For a "PrC cap" to limit this, it would have to be explicitly stated. Or the ability would have to read, "At level 1, you get 2d6. At level 2, it increases to 4d6. At level 3, it increases to 6d6." Which would (technically) leave level 4+ undefined. That isn't how they're written, however. Level 4 is defined by the progression specifying +2d6 per level. That there are only 3 levels of the class doesn't mean you can't have effective levels that are greater; the Bloodline level mechanics are one such way to have more effective levels.


I disagree, for two reasons. First, because they enumerated everything else it did. If it had this effect, they would have said so. Second, at the very beginning it says "Because the power gain is gradual over a span of twenty levels, a static level adjustment doesn't truly reflect this difference." It is clear they specifically intended to avoid giving an ECL adjustment.Quite the contrary. If they intended to avoid that, there would have been no reason to spell out that it gave anything. Just have an XP cost at the minimum levels and move on. The only reason to spell out "bloodline levels" as actually being LEVELS is if they take up "space" in your 20-level progression.

Specific trumps general, so where the Bloodline Level rules say something is different, that is different. Where they say something is not different, that something is the same as for a "normal" level. Where they are silent, then again, anything about which they are silent remains the same as for a "normal" level, because there is no specific to trump general.

Therefore, the bloodline levels ARE levels and DO factor into ECL, XP-minima-for-next-level, etc. Only where it explicitly spells out a difference does that difference exist.



As a concrete example, consider a caster who gains a level, and takes the feat Focused Specialist. Now they can expend their focus while casting a spell, for +1 CL. So, they gained one CL on their spell when they levelled, but also a second effective level because of the feat. Yet they didn't gain two levels to their ECL, only one.True, but irrelevant. They didn't gain a "Focused Specialist Level." They gained a feat which gave them +1 to a calculation of effective level for a specific purpose.

"Bloodline levels" are, quite explicitly, levels. They behave differently in a number of ways, but those ways are expressly enumerated. "Does not raise ECL" is not one of them. It is not stated nor even implied. The closest it comes is saying that it doesn't do everything that normal class levels do.


There are numerous feats for expending bardic song to gain caster levels for you or your allies. I think there are feats to expend turning attempts, too. None of these give an ECL.Of course not. They're feats, not levels. Note that you expend a resource - a feat - to gain these bonus to level-based calculations. If bloodline levels are not levels, you do not expend any such resource. (In fact, bloodline levels never even say you spend xp on them. Because it is one of those things on which the rules are silent, you DO spend XP on them just as you would a normal level, just as they raise your ECL as would a normal level.)




Errr, did you make those classes up? Soooo many PrCs, even google can't find them all.The Fatebinder (which I may be misnaming) is in C. Arcane. "Sneaky Bastard" I made up because I'm too lazy to look up the PrCs that grant consistent sneak attack bonuses to see which ones are worded how.




Normal levels raise your CL, bloodline levels don't.There is no text supporting this assertion.


That is the only difference possible, unless you're going to apply a LA (and let people buy it off?).This statement is false. There are a number of possible differences; the ones which apply are enumerated (and include "no increase to HD or BAB"). I am not sure what level adjustment has to do with anything, here.


I think the meaning is clear, even if the literary skills of the writer left something to be desired.Obviously not, since you're reading it and coming to a conclusion that is not supported by the text presented in the rules.


I hope you aren't going to argue that their intent was to make you spend XP for a level, be treated as a character of one level higher, but NOT get a hit die, BAB, saving throws, class abilities, an allotment of skill points?I am. It's what the rules explicitly say happens. I mean, how much clearer can they be than to say:

"A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#bloodlineLevels)


If you are going to treat the character as one level higher on their CL after getting a bloodline level, then that is exactly what you are doing.It is exactly what the rules say to do, assuming you mean "CL" to mean "Character Level."



No. See my previous paragraph. You've made them take a full level, and gotten far less than a real level gives.That is exactly what the rules say to do. Explicitly.


That makes even less sense than other stuff people have argued, or the text itself.Er, it's what the text itself says. And I don't see why it fails to make sense; the whole point of "bloodline levels" is clearly to pay for the bonuses given by the bloodline. It is SUPPOSED to be a cost to the PC. Paying a level to partially pay for all those bonuses (or fully pay, in the case of minor bloodlines).




Well, real character levels give them more ranks. If you are going to treat bloodline levels as real levels, then the character should get the HD, BAB, saves, skill points, and levels of class skills. Since they don't, it's not a character level.The rules disagree with you. It's a character level. It just doesn't increase things the way a normal character level would. It says as much. It does not give HD, BAB, saves, or skill points. It does give skill ranks, does not count for multiclass penalties, and does count for any class-level-based calculations (such as CL or other features which are calculated directly on class level) for all classes the character has.

The rules are explicit on this.

You seem to be objecting that, despite it saying that it doesn't behave like a normal character level, it has to behave like a normal character level to raise the ECL. But it's a LEVEL. It says so. If you can arbitrarily decide that it doesn't count as your level for that XP band, then you can arbitrarily decide it costs no XP. The same leaps of logic apply. This is clearly not intended.

Bloodline levels are MEANT to be a cost to pay for those bloodline bonuses.
That's why they have so many normal-level-things they do not give you. They ARE stand-ins for LA, but the creators decided to throw a bone in class-level-based calculations and skill rank caps, for some reason.

Bloodline levels are intended to be a "penalty." Paying for your Bloodline bonuses by giving up HD, BAB, skill points, and slowing down acquisition of new class features.

You cannot calculate a cost for them if they're not levels. Not without inventing far more complicated, unwritten rules to handle it.

Gaining a level doesn't cost XP, so there's no way to "pay" XP for a Bloodline level that isn't a level and doesn't count towards your ECL. The rules provide no special way to handle this. The rules instead call them "bloodline levels," and refer to "taking" them. "Taking a level" means that you HAVE gained a level, it counts for XP purposes as a level you've taken.

And though this came before Savage Species, I believe, Savage Species provides further precedent for levels that don't grant HD, BAB, skill points, etc.: monster advancement levels. And the "empty" levels there serve exactly the same purpose: increasing effective character level as a form of payment for abilities and powers, without gaining everything that increasing your character level normally would.

[dascarletm]

It's only (mostly) free power if you can acquire the LA at-will. Most sources of LA are from something inherent to your race. The grand majority will be with your character from day 1. Taking that into account, LA buy-off does exactly what it means to do. That is, it removes the penalty at higher levels of play when the benefits from the LA source will most likely be less significant.

For a level 1 party including one player with a +1 LA race. here is the breakdown, Player A has the template, Player B does not.

Levels 1, 2, and 3 play out the same as a normal game. Everyone gets the same experience.

Player A: 6000 XP, reached level 3 (ECL4).
Player B: 6000 XP, reached level 4(ECL4).

Now things will change, player A pays 3,000xp and has no more LA.

Player A: 3000XP, level 3 (ECL3)
Player B: 6000XP, level 4 (ECL4)

Power-wise they are both the same as a game without LA reduction, the only difference is that player A now gains extra XP.

I'm going to assume a party of 4 and they fight CR 4 challenges until the party levels up. if you think this is unfair I'm only doing it for simplicity.

After 9 challenges Player A levels. The party now looks like this

Player A: 6042XP, level 4.
Player B: 8700XP, level 4.

Player A is now rocking his/her level 4 abilities. Something that the party has had for 9 encounters thus far. I hope those racial abilities were worth it. Now A is better than his/her party. That is until 5 encounters roll by.

Player A: 7542XP, level 4.
Player B: 10200XP, level 5.

Player A is now rocking those sweet level 4 abilities, but his/her buddies just got their level 5s. As DnD is a bit swingy in power gained it could be absolutely nothing, or access to level 3 spells. Lets say everyone is now fighting CR 5 challenges. It is going to take 7 encounters for player A to level up, at that point.

Player A: 10342XP, level 5
Player B: 12825XP, level 5

After 6 encounters the rest of the party is leveling up while player A is staying behind.

Player A: 12592XP, level 5
Player B: 15075XP, level 6

I think we can see where I am going with this. I'll stop now because I don't want to keep on doing the math. Someone can pick up where I left off if they want.

The point is, they are going to be fluctuating. Player A is going to sometimes be the same level, and the rest will be ahead of him/her most of the time (though that will depend on what CR challenges you fight). However, at some point this is going to even out. I'm going to guess around level... 10ish?

At that point most CR 1 templates are not going to be worth 1 level. Sure you can say, "it's still free power," but it isn't. You still are at varying fractions of levels behind the party, and that is something. Saying it is free is just objectively wrong.

[Darrin]

If a bloodline level is going to raise the character's level, then why wouldn't they give HP, BAB, saving throws, skill points, and class abilities/new spells with it? That makes no sense. You're making the character a level higher, but with only a minor gain in power, far less than a character would get with a real level. Avoiding that is clearly the intent behind bloodline levels; the text even says so, in a round-about way.

It's very difficult to tell what the designers thought would be a minor or major gain in power. There's an argument that the list of special abilities that bloodlines grant over the course of the PC's career is an adequate trade-off for losing HP/BAB/saves/skills/class abilities. These are, after all, the same designers who thought that Dragon Disciple was a sorcerer-friendly PrC, or that a sorcerer would want to spend five of his precious feat slots on Draconic Legacy to get three crappy spells added to his spells known. There are countless examples of the designers misunderstanding the cost of, say, a caster level, bonus feat, SLA, etc.

Bloodline levels appear to be an alternative to imposing crippling LA or slapping on wonky templates for players that wanted a "descended from {X}" character concept. Gaining HP/BAB/saves/skills along with the entire package of level-dependent abilities may have been a step too far for the designers. They may have been trying to mimic the effects of LA +1/+2/+3, and felt more comfortable that PCs were giving up HP/BAB/saves/skills/etc. Or they may have just been trying to avoid arguments about, "Wait, why does a major red dragon bloodline only give me 1d4 for HPs? Shouldn't I get 1d12 for being descended from a dragon?"

Personally, I prefer method #1, but without any specific text that describes how XP totals are adjusted, I have to conclude that the only RAW interpretation is that bloodlines count towards ECL, and giving up the HP/BAB/saves/skills/etc. was supposed to be part of the cost to balance out all of the new abilities gained.

[Andorn]

You claim to be contradicting my point that LA buyoff rules are free power for nothing, or non functional, you can't use the nonfunctional parts as proof that I am wrong, because that mean's I'm right.


Sigh. This isn't about being right, it is about understanding correctly. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that at level 1, if you have a level adjustment, you are getting powers that you haven't paid for or worked for in some way. Do I have that correct?

Well, if that is what you are trying to communicate, then I *agree* with you. But, I don't think it is particularly important, because very few games make players start with truly nothing and earn their first class level, though, so everybody starts with *something* that was "free". Games that start with characters at higher levels got ALL their early levels for "free", so what? That doesn't mean the system is broken.

If you have a level adjustment at level 1, you pay for it later in reduced XP gain relative to a group of people who don't have any level adjustments. You pay for it again if you buy off level adjustments later. Sure, LA+1 isn't *much* of a burden, but it isn't much of a gain, either, compared to gaining a full level, or a higher LA.

If you have already gained enough levels to qualify for buyoff, you can avoid the XP reduction penalty in those early, and buy it off immediately when you acquire it, so that will reduce your costs (although you also didn't get the benefit of the abilities for those early levels, either). That comes somewhat closer to "free" power, but really it isn't totally "free", is it?

As for being non-functional, how can you say that? If you have a level adjustment you XP slower than if you didn't, because you get less XP for the same encounters. If you buy the level off, that is a permanent loss of XP that otherwise you could use to gain a level. You may feel the amount of XP is too little to matter, but there *is* a cost. You may not like how it functions, but it does function.

Personally, I'm not too concerned about LA+1, because I don't think it has that much of an impact, either for in-game character power or for cost. I'm more concerned about higher LA, because I think the mechanics are broken. I've already given concrete examples of the mechanics, and pointed out that it makes characters too fragile to stay with a group in a long campaign. I've outlined a method of LA buyoff that I think makes the problem more manageable, so players can keep a group together in long-lasting campaigns.



LA buyoff rules are free power for nothing at LA 1, they are basically non functional at LA 3, at LA 2, they are just like any other dumb thing that is free power at high levels and a crippling handicap at low levels, like the slow trait on Wizards and Sorcerers, or being an Anthrobat Druid (except that the break point is later than level 6), or being an Ancient Druid who only gets bonuses and no penalties.

LA rules suck. LA buyoff rules don't fix any of the problems with LA rules, and introduce a new problem of their own. They also take the obvious worst possible system of LA reduction, making high LA's take forever to reduce or literally never reduce, but giving the low LAs free power for nothing immediately, even though literally reversing that would be better in every way.


Well, I agree with you that the buyoff rules suck, but I don't think they should be completely reversed. It's not all or nothing with me, there is a middle road. Let ALL characters buy off a level immediately. Treat each source of adjustment separately. So, if you have a LA+4 and a LA+2, you can buy off one level from each immediately, if you want to pay the XP. Then you are +3 and +1. A few levels later, buy off some more. That way you pay for the extra abilities over time, as you make use of them.



Saying "But being a level 1 character with 4 LA still sucks!" doesn't prove me wrong about any of that, it doesn't even contradict anything I said. You can refuse to address anything I said if you want, but if that's your goal, why are you quoting me when you are talking to some other person (or no one) and not addressing anything I said?

Well, I don't think you understood my points at all, if that is all you got out of what I have written.

[Andorn]

The way I read it, a bloodline does & must affect ECL.

However... the rules seem to indicate that if you skip a bloodline level, you don't get the get new benefits but
you still get to keep the benefits you already got....

So this could in theory allow for free stuff at levels 1 and 2... However as a GM I would rule that a PC MUST take at least the first bloodline level in order to keep any of the benefits...


So, you think they intended to make the character 1 level higher with each bloodline level, but deny that character the hit die, BAB, saving throw bonuses, skill points, and new spells per level, feats, stat increases, and class abilities?

That makes no sense.

The character is either a level higher or it isn't. If you aren't getting all the stuff I just mentioned, it makes no sense to treat the character as 1 level higher when it is XP award time.

As for the "free stuff" at level 1 and 2, if you don't take the bloodline level, you forever after suffer a 20% penalty to XP. What's "free" about that?

[Beheld]

Sigh. This isn't about being right, it is about understanding correctly. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that at level 1, if you have a level adjustment, you are getting powers that you haven't paid for or worked for in some way. Do I have that correct?

No, you do not have me right. You have no where within a billion miles of me.


If you have a level adjustment at level 1, you pay for it later in reduced XP gain relative to a group of people who don't have any level adjustments. You pay for it again if you buy off level adjustments later. Sure, LA+1 isn't *much* of a burden, but it isn't much of a gain, either, compared to gaining a full level, or a higher LA.

Once again. 1) If you have 1 LA, you may actually start with 1000 more XP than everyone else. 2) Even if you don't, the amount you lose from being higher level from 1-3 is less than the amount you gain from 4-5. Less. You earn back three levels of reduced XP gain in one level.


If you have already gained enough levels to qualify for buyoff, you can avoid the XP reduction penalty in those early, and buy it off immediately when you acquire it, so that will reduce your costs (although you also didn't get the benefit of the abilities for those early levels, either). That comes somewhat closer to "free" power, but really it isn't totally "free", is it?

Yes, it's totally free. You get some LA, and then you are the same level as everyone else for 95% of the rest of the game. That's free power.

[Andorn]

Quite the contrary. If they intended to avoid that, there would have been no reason to spell out that it gave anything. Just have an XP cost at the minimum levels and move on. The only reason to spell out "bloodline levels" as actually being LEVELS is if they take up "space" in your 20-level progression.

Specific trumps general, so where the Bloodline Level rules say something is different, that is different. Where they say something is not different, that something is the same as for a "normal" level. Where they are silent, then again, anything about which they are silent remains the same as for a "normal" level, because there is no specific to trump general.

Therefore, the bloodline levels ARE levels and DO factor into ECL, XP-minima-for-next-level, etc. Only where it explicitly spells out a difference does that difference exist.


Except the text specifically says "Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's level the way a normal class does, but they do provide certain benefits."

It explicitly says it doesn't increase their class level. And, to apply a level increase without the Hit Dice, BAB, saves, skill points, increase in spells known/usable, or class skills just doesn't make any sense.



"Bloodline levels" are, quite explicitly, levels. They behave differently in a number of ways, but those ways are expressly enumerated. "Does not raise ECL" is not one of them. It is not stated nor even implied. The closest it comes is saying that it doesn't do everything that normal class levels do.


"Does raise ECL" is not one of them, either. However, given all the things they don't do, it makes more sense that they don't raise character level than that they do, along with the telling phrase "do not increase a character's level".



Of course not. They're feats, not levels. Note that you expend a resource - a feat - to gain these bonus to level-based calculations. If bloodline levels are not levels, you do not expend any such resource. (In fact, bloodline levels never even say you spend xp on them. Because it is one of those things on which the rules are silent, you DO spend XP on them just as you would a normal level, just as they raise your ECL as would a normal level.)


Sure you did, you expended the time and effort to gain the XP that went into the ability. And, people expend XP on other things that aren't levels, so not all XP expenditures are character levels.



The Fatebinder (which I may be misnaming) is in C. Arcane. "Sneaky Bastard" I made up because I'm too lazy to look up the PrCs that grant consistent sneak attack bonuses to see which ones are worded how.


Ah, you are referring to the "Fatespinner". "Each day, a fatespinner can use a number of points of spin equal to his fatespinner class level."

Sounds like luck points from the luck feats in Complete Scoundrel, or action points from Eberron. So, a 1 level dip in Fatespinner and 3 bloodline levels gets you 4 spin points to use. Wow, I think we have a new build concept: 3 bloodline levels, and one level dips in a ton of PrCs. Talk about versatility.

If you have two bloodlines, you can take 6 bloodline levels. A one level dip in Warlock gives you a 4d6 EB. One level dip in sorcerer gives you 4d4+4 magic missiles, but why bother?



There is no text supporting this assertion.


Yeah, there is, see above. You can try to twist it, but I think the most obvious meaning is the intended one. It says it doesn't raise character level, "the way a normal class level does." You are inferring that it must raise class level in some other way. I think you're working it too hard. The fact it doesn't give any of the normal class level benefits is a clear indication how we should read it.



This statement is false. There are a number of possible differences; the ones which apply are enumerated (and include "no increase to HD or BAB"). I am not sure what level adjustment has to do with anything, here.


Well, every time you gain an actual class level, you get hit dice. Always. There are no exceptions. You also always get skill points. Always, no exceptions. You usually get BAB and/or saving throws. Even with classes with slow progression, you almost always get at least one of those. Even racial paragon levels give hit dice, skill points, BAB and saves.

So, bloodline levels aren't real class levels. The only other mechanism for raising a character's level is a level adjustment. The text explicitly says bloodline levels aren't "a static level adjustment". You could try to read that as some sort of non-static level adjustment, but again I think you'd be reading more into it than is actually there.



Obviously not, since you're reading it and coming to a conclusion that is not supported by the text presented in the rules.

I am. It's what the rules explicitly say happens. I mean, how much clearer can they be than to say:

"A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#bloodlineLevels)


It also says they "do not increase the character's character level the way a normal class does but they do provide certain benefits".



It is exactly what the rules say to do, assuming you mean "CL" to mean "Character Level."


Yes, character level is exactly what I meant. It is exactly what the rules say not to do. The rules explicitly say a bloodline level does not increase a character's class level the way a normal class level does. You are reading into the phrasing that they must increase the character level in some other way. I disagree with that interpretation. If they had intended it to be a real level, then why deny the character all the standard benefits of a class level?



That is exactly what the rules say to do. Explicitly.

Er, it's what the text itself says. And I don't see why it fails to make sense; the whole point of "bloodline levels" is clearly to pay for the bonuses given by the bloodline. It is SUPPOSED to be a cost to the PC. Paying a level to partially pay for all those bonuses (or fully pay, in the case of minor bloodlines).


Well, for "all those bonuses" it is 3 levels worth of XP, not just one, or a 20% XP penalty for life.



The rules disagree with you. It's a character level. It just doesn't increase things the way a normal character level would. It says as much. It does not give HD, BAB, saves, or skill points. It does give skill ranks, does not count for multiclass penalties, and does count for any class-level-based calculations (such as CL or other features which are calculated directly on class level) for all classes the character has.


The rules are explicit, it does not raise a character's character level. You just seem to not want to believe it, and so you keep insisting it reads some other way, which just isn't there.



The rules are explicit on this.

You seem to be objecting that, despite it saying that it doesn't behave like a normal character level, it has to behave like a normal character level to raise the ECL. But it's a LEVEL. It says so. If you can arbitrarily decide that it doesn't count as your level for that XP band, then you can arbitrarily decide it costs no XP. The same leaps of logic apply. This is clearly not intended.


Well, the game has different types of level. Spells have a spell level, and a caster level. Classes have a class level. Characters have a character level. Encounters have an encounter level. Saying it is a LEVEL doesn't mean it is a character level. Again, it explicitly says it doesn't increase a character's character level.



Bloodline levels are MEANT to be a cost to pay for those bloodline bonuses.
That's why they have so many normal-level-things they do not give you. They ARE stand-ins for LA, but the creators decided to throw a bone in class-level-based calculations and skill rank caps, for some reason.
[quote]

Well, that cost is the XP cost of this pseudo-level. (my word).

[quote]
Bloodline levels are intended to be a "penalty." Paying for your Bloodline bonuses by giving up HD, BAB, skill points, and slowing down acquisition of new class features.


The cost is the XP you spend. Making the character a full level higher, without benefit of all the stuff you always get with a real level, for the few bonuses you have at the time you take your bloodline level is not justified, and trying to read that into it makes no sense.

If we follow your way of reading it, a 1st level character, with one hit die, gains XP for level two. He has gained a +2 bonus on one skill check from his bloodline. So now he takes the bloodline level. All he gets is an increase in his skill cap, but has no skill points to take advantage of it. He has no hit die, no BAB, no saves, no feats, no new spells. Very few class abilities are going to increase with a single class level, not at level 1. To get XP parity he's going to have to fight level 2 monsters, though. That makes no sense. If he waits until level 2, and then takes level 3 as a bloodline level, well, he will get some minor increases, an extra d4 on his magic missile, for example.



You cannot calculate a cost for them if they're not levels. Not without inventing far more complicated, unwritten rules to handle it.


Granted, they should have made the cost explicit, but it isn't much of a stretch to say it is however much XP you need for your next class level.



Gaining a level doesn't cost XP, so there's no way to "pay" XP for a Bloodline level that isn't a level and doesn't count towards your ECL. The rules provide no special way to handle this. The rules instead call them "bloodline levels," and refer to "taking" them. "Taking a level" means that you HAVE gained a level, it counts for XP purposes as a level you've taken.


The language is a mess, no doubt about it. So we have to look at what the text says, take it as close to face value as we can, and fill in the holes with what seems most consistent with the established game balance. In other words, pretty much what people always have to do with some product that got rushed out the door to get it to market.



And though this came before Savage Species, I believe, Savage Species provides further precedent for levels that don't grant HD, BAB, skill points, etc.: monster advancement levels. And the "empty" levels there serve exactly the same purpose: increasing effective character level as a form of payment for abilities and powers, without gaining everything that increasing your character level normally would.

But racial paragon levels in UA give hit dice and BAB and saves and skill points. The stuff in SS had to fit in with the existing starting hit dice of creatures already in the books.

[Andorn]

It's only (mostly) free power if you can acquire the LA at-will. Most sources of LA are from something inherent to your race. The grand majority will be with your character from day 1. Taking that into account, LA buy-off does exactly what it means to do. That is, it removes the penalty at higher levels of play when the benefits from the LA source will most likely be less significant.

For a level 1 party including one player with a +1 LA race. here is the breakdown, Player A has the template, Player B does not.


I'm sorry, but your example is incorrect. The player with the LA+1 is going to get less XP per encounter than the level 1 characters in the group. When those folks hit 6,000 Xp, the person with the LA+1 will be at 5K and change, or maybe a bit less, depending on what they fight.

[Andorn]

I just found an FAQ from WotC, dated from June of 2008:

www.adnd3egame.com/documents/mainfaq.pdf

It makes a couple of points about bloodline levels. The first is that since rogue sneak attack damage isn't a level formula, that bloodline levels don't advance it. Looking at Warlock, this is also true, so bloodline levels will not advance EB (Hellfire Warlock is a different matter). While the text says that EB gets stronger with level, it gives no formula. It is all in the class table. Also, the progression changes at level 13.

The second is this:

"Bloodline levels don’t stack with class levels for the purpose of meeting prerequisites (such as the minimum fighter level for selecting Weapon Specialization)."

Unfortunately, it doesn't address the overall character level issue. The other stuff definitely nerfs the power of bloodline levels a bit, though.


Some stuff from Andy Collins:

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20040207a

Interesting quote:
"Andy: Unearthed Arcana didn't undergo anything like "traditional" playtesting. In a sense, though, Unearthed Arcana has been in playtesting for years, as it includes many rules subsystems first published in other d20 games, as well as never-before-published house rules and other personalized variants contributed by designers from their own house games. As the foreword advises, DMs and players cracking open this book should go in with their eyes open -- it's not for the faint of heart."

Discussion thread in which Andy Collins answers some questions:

http://gameschat19968.yuku.com/topic/2348#.VqsvL7ZMFpg

[Segev]

So, you think they intended to make the character 1 level higher with each bloodline level, but deny that character the hit die, BAB, saving throw bonuses, skill points, and new spells per level, feats, stat increases, and class abilities?

That makes no sense.

The character is either a level higher or it isn't. If you aren't getting all the stuff I just mentioned, it makes no sense to treat the character as 1 level higher when it is XP award time.It makes perfect sense. LA does the exact same thing: it increases ECL without granting even skill rank caps. Bloodline levels do increase ECL, just "not the way that normal character levels do." But they do "provide some benefits."


As for the "free stuff" at level 1 and 2, if you don't take the bloodline level, you forever after suffer a 20% penalty to XP. What's "free" about that?I believe his point is that, if the game only lasts until 2nd level or even 3rd level, you never pay anything by not taking the bloodline level.


Except the text specifically says "Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's level the way a normal class does, but they do provide certain benefits."You have to read the whole sentence. You keep insisting on ignoring "the way a normal class does." That doesn't mean nothing. It means that it DOES increase a character's level, just not exactly the same way normal class levels do. If it meant "does not increase character's level at all," it would say either that, or at least stop after "level," because the rest is extraneous.


It explicitly says it doesn't increase their class level.No, it says it does "not increase a character's level the way a normal class does." Technically, it uses the phrase "character level," which, by itself, would be a stronger support for your position. However, "the way a normal class does," undermines your point.


And, to apply a level increase without the Hit Dice, BAB, saves, skill points, increase in spells known/usable, or class skills just doesn't make any sense.It makes perfect sense. It may seem a silly thing to do, but it is a concept that is easily done (as evidenced by Savage Species and LA, the latter of which predates UA by a fair bit). So it makes sense in that it is something that can be done without too much confusion.

Your character level is the level you are on the XP chart. Bloodline levels count as one of your levels on that chart. They do not grant HD, BAB, save bonuses, or skill points. This doesn't make taking up space on the level chart meaningless; a Bloodline level fills a range on your XP chart. They mean that you must get to the NEXT range band on the XP chart to gain a new level in another class. This is a clear mechanical meaning. It's the meaning held by level adjustment and by savage species progressions which don't advance BAB or HD or the like.

You don't have to LIKE it, but you can't correctly argue that it makes no sense. It makes perfect sense, in that it both has mechanical meaning and it suits the role as a cost. A level that doesn't grant HD, BAB, saves, or skill points is definitely a cost compared to a level that would grant those things.




"Does raise ECL" is not one of them, either. However, given all the things they don't do, it makes more sense that they don't raise character level than that they do, along with the telling phrase "do not increase a character's level".It specifically enumerates the things it "does not do." The things that make it fail to raise character level "the way normal class levels do." Anything it doesn't enumerate has no specific rule, so the general rule takes over. The general rule says that a level raises your ECL.




Sure you did, you expended the time and effort to gain the XP that went into the ability. And, people expend XP on other things that aren't levels, so not all XP expenditures are character levels.Nowhere do the rules on Bloodline Levels say "expend XP." You don't expend XP when you level up.

No, seriously. Look at how the rules for leveling up work:

Once you have a certain amount of XP accumulated, you gain a level. Rules that require you to expend XP delay level acquisition. Level loss causes XP loss in order to drop you to the XP band that corresponds to your new level. But actually gaining levels never, ever involves SPENDING experience points! It involves accumulating them.

Bloodline levels don't say that you expend XP. The house rules that treat Bloodline levels as if they do have you expend your XP when you should level up to drop yourself down to the bottom of your current level, prior to leveling up. But that procedure is nowhere spelled out, referenced, or even suggested by the RAW. The RAW would state that you're expending XP if you were.

You're not. You're gaining a level. If you are taking a Bloodline level as your third level, you have just gotten to 3000 XP. You take a Bloodline level as your third level. You still have 3000 XP, and earn more. When you hit 6000 XP, you level up to level 4. It is literally the only mechanical meaning of "taking a level" in D&D 3.5.

Every example of spending XP to reduce your effective level refers explicitly to "spending XP." LA buyoff, reducing your level permanently, even magic item creation and the like refers to SPENDING XP, not to "leveling up without raising your ECL."

Put it another way: If you "take a bloodline level," but it doesn't raise your ECL, at what XP total do you actually gain a new level? Note again that nowhere in the RAW does it say to reduce your XP total, nor to spend XP, when you take a Bloodline level. So when you take a Bloodline level, your XP total does not change.

Do you immediately gain both the Bloodline level AND a normal level, because you've enough XP to level up?

THAT is nonsensical.

The only sensible reading of the rules is that a Bloodline level is a level. It occupies space on your level-up chart.




Ah, you are referring to the "Fatespinner". "Each day, a fatespinner can use a number of points of spin equal to his fatespinner class level."

Sounds like luck points from the luck feats in Complete Scoundrel, or action points from Eberron. So, a 1 level dip in Fatespinner and 3 bloodline levels gets you 4 spin points to use. Wow, I think we have a new build concept: 3 bloodline levels, and one level dips in a ton of PrCs. Talk about versatility.

If you have two bloodlines, you can take 6 bloodline levels. A one level dip in Warlock gives you a 4d6 EB. One level dip in sorcerer gives you 4d4+4 magic missiles, but why bother?Indeed. But more to the point, Fatespinner doesn't say you have a maximum of 5 spin points. (Thanks for looking that up for me, by the way.) So if your Fatespinner level is 8, because, for example, you've taken 3 Bloodline levels, then you get 8 spin points per day.




Yeah, there is, see above. You can try to twist it, but I think the most obvious meaning is the intended one. It says it doesn't raise character level, "the way a normal class level does." You are inferring that it must raise class level in some other way. I think you're working it too hard. The fact it doesn't give any of the normal class level benefits is a clear indication how we should read it.See my discussion with several bolded lines above. Your reading requires inventing rules that aren't there, or a completely degenerate, nonsensical set of consequences (e.g. gaining a bloodline level also immediately gains you a class level, because your XP total is unchanged and you have not officially gained a level, somehow).

To reiterate: The rules don't say you expend XP on Bloodline levels. They do call them "levels." They do say that you "take" them. Taking levels doesn't change your XP value; it fills a certain band of XP with a given level. When you take a Bloodline level, therefore, you have increased your level, because you're in a new band on the XP chart.




Well, every time you gain an actual class level, you get hit dice. Always. There are no exceptions. You also always get skill points. Always, no exceptions. You usually get BAB and/or saving throws. Even with classes with slow progression, you almost always get at least one of those. Even racial paragon levels give hit dice, skill points, BAB and saves.Which is all irrelevant, since Bloodline levels explicitly say they do not behave the same way normal class levels do. It's in the line you keep quoting and then ignoring the "the way normal class levels do" part.


So, bloodline levels aren't real class levels.Correct. They're Bloodline levels. Which are still levels.


The only other mechanism for raising a character's level is a level adjustment.Not entirely true. Unless you want to take back your "no exceptions" statements above and say that Savage Species monster-class-levels are "class levels."


The text explicitly says bloodline levels aren't "a static level adjustment". No, they say that the power of a bloodline cannot be represented by a static level adjustment. That's quite a different statement. If it could be, a bloodline would have an LA of +1, +2, or +3, paid up front, like other monster races and templates.


You could try to read that as some sort of non-static level adjustment, but again I think you'd be reading more into it than is actually there.I'm reading what is explicitly there. You're reading things into it that are not because you're hung up on the idea that HD, BAB, saves, and skill points are essential to something being a "level." This is patently untrue, as numerous examples and the very way the rules are written for Bloodlines demonstrate. All something needs to do to be "a level" is fill a "slot" on the list of range bands of XP. It makes you count as a level higher and therefore need more XP than you currently have to gain a new level of any sort.

[dascarletm]

I'm sorry, but your example is incorrect. The player with the LA+1 is going to get less XP per encounter than the level 1 characters in the group. When those folks hit 6,000 Xp, the person with the LA+1 will be at 5K and change, or maybe a bit less, depending on what they fight.

My example is in fact not incorrect. At least in this example, since ECL levels 1-3 receive the same experience (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/).

[Beheld]

My example is in fact not incorrect. At least in this example, since ECL levels 1-3 receive the same experience (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/).

Wow, you are right (well I haven't looked at the DMG charts to check, but at least according to that encounter calculator) +1 LA even from character creation is just as much free power for nothing as later applied templates, since you get the same XP from 1-4 no matter what level you are.

[dascarletm]

Wow, you are right (well I haven't looked at the DMG charts to check, but at least according to that encounter calculator) +1 LA even from character creation is just as much free power for nothing as later applied templates, since you get the same XP from 1-4 no matter what level you are.

Well, then you look at the rest of the work I did and see that it isn't free. LA reduction turns you from being 1 level behind the party 100% of the time, to a decreasing % as you gain levels.

It is a better deal than no LA buyoff.

It isn't free.

Alternatively here is another source (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/DnD_DMG_XPFinal.asp).

[Segev]

Wow, you are right (well I haven't looked at the DMG charts to check, but at least according to that encounter calculator) +1 LA even from character creation is just as much free power for nothing as later applied templates, since you get the same XP from 1-4 no matter what level you are.

It's free power at level 1. If you assume that it really IS fair, then it's no longer free power by level 2; when everybody else is level 2, they've caught up to the LA+1 1-HD character. In practice, they're usually more powerful than he is, given that LA is usually not as strong as the levels it adjusts through.

[ComaVision]

Query: From the example in UA, it's clear that Bloodline Levels do not count as character levels for the purposes of gaining the benefits of a bloodline (ex. a level 2 sorcer/bloodline 1 character can't have a 3rd level bloodline bonus). If bloodline levels count as character levels for ECL, then why do the bloodline charts go to 20? You'd have to be level 23 to have all the benefits of the chart, assuming bloodline levels count for ECL.

[Segev]

Query: From the example in UA, it's clear that Bloodline Levels do not count as character levels for the purposes of gaining the benefits of a bloodline (ex. a level 2 sorcer/bloodline 1 character can't have a 3rd level bloodline bonus). If bloodline levels count as character levels for ECL, then why do the bloodline charts go to 20? You'd have to be level 23 to have all the benefits of the chart, assuming bloodline levels count for ECL.

I am afraid I only have the SRD from which to work; I do not see examples in there.

However, example characters are OFTEN built incorrectly in 3.5 books, sadly. And though they CAN help show intent, they do not necessarily do so.

The RAW provide for bloodline bonuses being based on character level. It would mean, then, that you would, in fact, get them when you gain any sort of level, even a bloodline level.

The core point remains that there is literally no provision in the general rules nor the specific bloodline level rules for losing XP. It speaks solely of "taking" a bloodline level. That means it MUST fill the "level slot" you have available when you take it; if it does not, then you immediately gain ANOTHER level of any sort you like, and the bloodline level didn't cost a thing. At all. It in fact just gave you MORE bonuses. If that was the intent, there would be no penalty for failing to take bloodline levels. In fact, you should take them all at level 1, because you can and they cost you nothing and they let you push your skill rank caps and any CL you might get from your very first class level up by 3.

Now, "it would be broken" isn't a RAW argument. But it is a point to keep track of when discussing whether something would really work that way.

The RAW state that you take a bloodline level. When you take a level, your ECL increases. It has to, because your XP doesn't decrease when you level up; your XP determines what level you ARE.



One more time:

A major red dragon bloodline human warlock reaches 3000 XP, having taken 2 levels of Warlock. He chooses, as his third level, to take a bloodline level.

His CL increases to 4 for Warlock invocations. His class skill rank cap increases to 6 (though he has no skill points with which to help reach that cap at this time). He gains no new invocations, no new class features, no BAB, HD, or save bonus increases.

If, as you say, the Bloodline level does NOT increase his level, then what happens?

No rules say he loses XP, so he's still at 3000 XP. That's enough to gain a third level. Does he immediately also gain a 3rd level (which he could put into Warlock)? Does he lose XP? Where do the rules say he does? How many? 2000, to put him at the bottom of 2nd level? Where do the rules say so?

The rules don't say so. They say he takes a bloodline level. That bloodline level is his third level. He gains a fourth level at 6000 XP, which he probably will put into Warlock.

This preserves the notion of balance purported in paying for the bloodline powers with bloodline levels, because it is a legitimate cost (hit points, BAB, save bonuses, skill points). It avoids awkward questions about how to adjust XP when no XP adjustment is listed, or how to handle a level that isn't a level when the XP says you should have a certain number of levels. It is similar to Savage Species approaches to monster "class" levels, and has the same motive as a Level Adjustment. And it is 100% consistent with the RAW, requiring no extra words be read into it that are not there, and no extra rules be invented to handle things that arise from it.

[Beheld]

Well, then you look at the rest of the work I did and see that it isn't free. LA reduction turns you from being 1 level behind the party 100% of the time, to a decreasing % as you gain levels.

You showed that by level 5 you are spending more than half of each level as the same level as everyone else. Since you can only buyoff at ECL 4 anyway, that means that within one (of their) level(s) you are already spending half the time at the same level as them. That's pretty much totally free power for nothing, since by level 6 it is even more, level 7 like 80-90% and level 8, all the time.

That's free power for nothing, Turning LA 1 into LA .5 would already be worth it if that was all it did, and it does more than that after they've leveled once. You get an LA, and you lose basically nothing.

Also all your math ignored the rules for Starting a character with LA (the rules say that you start with 1k XP if you have +1 LA).


It's free power at level 1. If you assume that it really IS fair, then it's no longer free power by level 2; when everybody else is level 2, they've caught up to the LA+1 1-HD character. In practice, they're usually more powerful than he is, given that LA is usually not as strong as the levels it adjusts through.

Once again. I'm not talking about level 1 being free power (sure it is) I'm talking about how you buy it off and then are just exactly the same as another character but with LA.

However you are completely wrong about them catching up by level 2. By the time everyone else is level 2 you are 1000xp away from level 3 and they are 2000XP away.

Also, frankly, aside from new spell levels, LA is usually worth as much as a level (if it's one of the ones worth taking). So when they hit level 3 and you are still a level 2 +1LA character, that's actually the first time you are ever noticeably weaker than them, and even that doesn't last long. And as I said before, when they are level 5, you spend more than half of that level as a level 5 character with a free +1 LA.

[ComaVision]

I am afraid I only have the SRD from which to work; I do not see examples in there.
For example, A 1st-level character with a major bloodline (silver dragon) receives a +2 bonus on Sense Motive checks as a bloodline trait. When he reaches 2nd character level, he gains the Alertness feat as a bloodline trait. Before he reaches 3rd character level, he must take a level of bloodline in order to continue gaining bloodline traits. if he reaches 3rd character level and has no bloodline levels, he does not gain the bloodline trait due him at 3rd character level (Strength +1) and must take a 20% reduction on all future XP gains. If he later meets the minimum required bloodline levels, he gains his 3rd-level trait at that time (as well as any other traits he may have failed to receive for not taking his bloodline level right away), and the XP reduction no longer applies to future gains. Before reaching his 6th character level, he must have taken two levels of bloodline in order to keep gaining bloodline traits. If he takes his third bloodline level before reaching 12th character level, he becomes eligible to gain all the traits of his bloodline (as they become available when he reaches new character levels).

It seems that the most reasonable interpretation is that your experience progression is permanently off-set. I'd rather "pay" it just for ease of book-keeping. It doesn't contribute to ECL and you don't get a free level.

[dascarletm]

You showed that by level 5 you are spending more than half of each level as the same level as everyone else. Since you can only buyoff at ECL 4 anyway, that means that within one (of their) level(s) you are already spending half the time at the same level as them. That's pretty much totally free power for nothing,
Being behind in level a % of the time =/= nothing.
If I told you that your character is going to be 20% of the game 1 level behind the other members of the party, and you get nothing in return. If that is, according to you nothing, then you would have no problem with that. I mean you're saying it doesn't matter at all, but it does matter. We just disagree that LA +1 equals a level at all levels. The point of LA buyoff is that you assume as your level increases the difference decreases

since by level 6 it is even more, level 7 like 80-90% and level 8, all the time.
Maybe, you'll have to do the math to prove it.



That's free power for nothing, Turning LA 1 into LA .5 would already be worth it if that was all it did, and it does more than that after they've leveled once. You get an LA, and you lose basically nothing.
Again, being behind in level a % of the time =/= nothing. You can argue that it is not as large of a drawback as what an LA+1 race gives you, but it isn't nothing.

It's an optional rule, if you don't believe in the premise behind it then don't use it. If you do believe, then it delivers on what it seeks out to do.

Also all your math ignored the rules for Starting a character with LA (the rules say that you start with 1k XP if you have +1 LA).
...
However you are completely wrong about them catching up by level 2. By the time everyone else is level 2 you are 1000xp away from level 3 and they are 2000XP away.

Never seen that, I'd like to know where it says that. Either way, that's a problem with a DM not starting all players with the same XP. This is not a problem with LA buyoff, and I don't see it being a particularly interesting/worthwhile avenue to follow.



Once again. I'm not talking about level 1 being free power (sure it is) I'm talking about how you buy it off and then are just exactly the same as another character but with LA.



Also, frankly, aside from new spell levels, LA is usually worth as much as a level (if it's one of the ones worth taking). So when they hit level 3 and you are still a level 2 +1LA character, that's actually the first time you are ever noticeably weaker than them, and even that doesn't last long. And as I said before, when they are level 5, you spend more than half of that level as a level 5 character with a free +1 LA.

Except not all levels are equal. In general in DnD levels are worth more as you level up. (Yes, there are exceptions. No, you don't need to point them out). The point of this is at high levels LA is theoretically the power gap between n and n-1 increases as n increases. Since most sources of LA provide static benefits you need something to bridge the gap. Since half levels don't exist this delivers on that.

Sure, at certain points of the campaign LA guy will be the same level. Other times he/she will be one level lower with a LA source which has benefits that are... possibly relevant at this level.

Either way, if you disagree on the basic premise, "LA is worth less the higher you go in level." Then it is obviously not for you.

[Segev]

However you are completely wrong about them catching up by level 2. By the time everyone else is level 2 you are 1000xp away from level 3 and they are 2000XP away.How do you figure? If you start at the same XP level as everybody else (0) in a level 1 game, but you're playing a 1 HD 1 LA character, you are still gaining XP at the same rate. When everybody hits level 2 at 1000 XP, you are also still ECL 2 with 1000 XP.

Having a Level Adjustment doesn't magically give you XP. See the Lycanthropy rules for backup: afflicted Lycanthropes get a bunch of HD and LA, but their XP doesn't jump. They just don't get to gain any more levels until their XP catches up with their ECL.


For example, A 1st-level character with a major bloodline (silver dragon) receives a +2 bonus on Sense Motive checks as a bloodline trait. When he reaches 2nd character level, he gains the Alertness feat as a bloodline trait. Before he reaches 3rd character level, he must take a level of bloodline in order to continue gaining bloodline traits. if he reaches 3rd character level and has no bloodline levels, he does not gain the bloodline trait due him at 3rd character level (Strength +1) and must take a 20% reduction on all future XP gains. If he later meets the minimum required bloodline levels, he gains his 3rd-level trait at that time (as well as any other traits he may have failed to receive for not taking his bloodline level right away), and the XP reduction no longer applies to future gains. Before reaching his 6th character level, he must have taken two levels of bloodline in order to keep gaining bloodline traits. If he takes his third bloodline level before reaching 12th character level, he becomes eligible to gain all the traits of his bloodline (as they become available when he reaches new character levels).

It seems that the most reasonable interpretation is that your experience progression is permanently off-set. I'd rather "pay" it just for ease of book-keeping. It doesn't contribute to ECL and you don't get a free level.

Actually... the example supports my position.

It says, "if he reaches 3rd character level and has no bloodline levels, he does not gain the bloodline trait due him at 3rd character level (Strength +1) and must take a 20% reduction on all future XP gains."

That's a big "if."

If he takes, as his third level, a bloodline level, then that whole clause about not receiving his Strength +1 bloodline bonus is invalidated because he has his bloodline level by level 3.

[ComaVision]

Actually... the example supports my position.

It says, "if he reaches 3rd character level and has no bloodline levels, he does not gain the bloodline trait due him at 3rd character level (Strength +1) and must take a 20% reduction on all future XP gains."

That's a big "if."

If he takes, as his third level, a bloodline level, then that whole clause about not receiving his Strength +1 bloodline bonus is invalidated because he has his bloodline level by level 3.

If he has not taken a bloodline level by his 3rd character level. The bloodline level doesn't count as a character level except for some express purposes.

Don't you think the examples would be written differently if bloodline levels counted for bloodline traits? It doesn't say, "if the character takes a bloodline level as his 3rd level, he then gains the bloodline trait due to him" or "if the character doesn't take a bloodline level as his 3rd level, he does not gain the bloodline trait due to him".

Your interpretation is incredibly weak mechanically, even by WotC design standards.

[Segev]

If he has not taken a bloodline level by his 3rd character level. The bloodline level doesn't count as a character level except for some express purposes.Incorrect. It does not raise character level in the same fashion as a normal class level. It is, however, still a character level. The ways in which it does not behave like a normal level are explicitly listed. "Does not increase your ECL" isn't one of them.

To accomplish the "offset" in XP you suggested would require an express statement in the rules. No such statement is present. Your interpretation still requires adding text; mine does not.


Don't you think the examples would be written differently if bloodline levels counted for bloodline traits? It doesn't say, "if the character takes a bloodline level as his 3rd level, he then gains the bloodline trait due to him" or "if the character doesn't take a bloodline level as his 3rd level, he does not gain the bloodline trait due to him".

Your interpretation is incredibly weak mechanically, even by WotC design standards.Er...

No?

My interpretation is expressly what the rules say, relying on general rules where the specific ones are silent.

The example you quoted says that he only fails to get the bonus if he has not taken it by his third level. It doesn't say "as" his third level because he has the option of taking it earlier. He could have taken it as his second level. (He can't as his first because, with 0 HD, he'd be dead.) It is, in fact, possible for him to take a Bloodline level as his second, third, AND fourth level, and thus meet all requirements for having taken sufficient bloodline levels by the deadlines in his build.

That's why they're written as they are. It says "by" not "as," because it doesn't require him to wait. That's all. You're reading into it something that isn't there.

[Andorn]

My example is in fact not incorrect. At least in this example, since ECL levels 1-3 receive the same experience (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/).

Doh! You are correct, sir. Yeah, that makes LA+1 a lot easier to bear. LA+3 is a different matter, though.

That's kinda weird, when you think about it. I mean, a level 3 character is a lot more capable than a level 1. In particular, more hit points, and much better spells and damage dealing. Plus, a level 3 is going to have much better gear than someone with base gold. They really ought to be treated differently.

[Andorn]

It seems that the most reasonable interpretation is that your experience progression is permanently off-set. I'd rather "pay" it just for ease of book-keeping. It doesn't contribute to ECL and you don't get a free level.

Exactly. As Andy Collins admitted, this stuff wasn't playtested. In his campaign, where this rule came from, everybody had bloodlines, and they were free. No XP costs, and no levels. He slapped a cost on them in order to stick them in the book, and didn't work through the mechanics.

Clearly, in his mind they aren't real levels. Otherwise, they'd have all the stuff you get with a real level, hit dice, BAB, saves, skill points, class ability advancements, more spells, yada yada yada. He has also stated that they don't count for your level-based feats and stat increases. His racial paragon levels give all that stuff.

The text says a static LA isn't right. And the text says (infamously, now):

"Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below)."

Some people insist this sentence means that they increase a character's character level anyway, just in some other fashion. Let's try on a couple other sentences:

"An ice cube doesn't increase the temperature of your food the way a normal stove does, but it does have certain effects."

Or something a little closer:

"A warming tray doesn't cook your food the way a normal stove does, but it does provide the benefit of keeping your food warm."

"The Arcane Thesis feat doesn't raise your character's character level the way a normal class level does, but it does provide certain benefits."

Clearly, just because there is a qualifier, it doesn't mean you must read extra stuff into the sentence. An ice cube doesn't increase the temperature of your food in some other fashion, a warming tray doesn't actually cook your food in some other fashion, and the Arcane Thesis feat doesn't raise your character level in some other fashion.

Bloodline "levels" don't provide ECL, the introduction rules out the intent of providing a static level increase. We are told specifically where to include benefits from bloodline levels: "calculating any character ability based on class levels" and as a class level for calculating maximum skill rank. That's clearly an error, because max skill ranks are calculated based on character level, not class level. Gee, I'm *shocked* to find another error here.

But that's it. It does not generally include abilities that are calculated based on character level, such as the number of essentia points you can put into an essentia feat or a soulmeld. Andy Collins has said they don't count for getting character level-based feats and stat points, either. FAQ from WotC has pointed out that sneak attack damage isn't actually a formula, so they don't increase things like that (which must include EB damage from Warlock).

The fact he gave them out in his campaign for free ought to be enough to tell us that he didn't view them as real character levels.

Of course, a DM is free to impose any penalty they want on their players. But having them count as a character level, when all you are getting is some minor power bumps, without the stuff that comes with a real level, goes against the wording, and the expressed intent of the designer.

[ComaVision]

Incorrect. It does not raise character level in the same fashion as a normal class level. It is, however, still a character level. The ways in which it does not behave like a normal level are explicitly listed. "Does not increase your ECL" isn't one of them.

To accomplish the "offset" in XP you suggested would require an express statement in the rules. No such statement is present. Your interpretation still requires adding text; mine does not.


Bold is your added text and is not said anywhere in the Bloodline section.


Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).

It doesn't say "not in the same fashion, is says you do not get a character level BUT you do get some benefits.

I don't think there's anything to be said that hasn't been said in the thread already though, so I'll refrain from further commentary.

[Segev]

Bold is your added text and is not said anywhere in the Bloodline section.
It doesn't need to be. It is the general rule. There is no specific text saying it does not add to your ECL, that your ECL remains the same as it was before you took it, nor to explain how to handle XP not changing despite you having not gained a level when taking a level.


It doesn't say "not in the same fashion, is says you do not get a character level BUT you do get some benefits.That's not what it says. It says it doesn't raise it in the same way.


I don't think there's anything to be said that hasn't been said in the thread already though, so I'll refrain from further commentary.Fair enough.



To the examples given a couple posts up, none of those actually make sense, because the language isn't used that way.

A warming tray isn't a stove, normal or otherwise. Arcane Thesis isn't a level; it's a feat. Saying "Apples don't give you vitamin C the way normal oranges do" is technically true, but carries an utterly false implication that Apples are Oranges, just abnormal ones.

The Bloodline Levels text says that they don't raise your level the way normal levels do, implying that they ARE levels, but that they don't do it quite the same way. (Hint: they're CALLED bloodline LEVELS. They're levels. They behave like levels except as noted. It says they don't give BAB, HD, saves, or skill points. IT does NOT say that they leave your ECL the same as it was before you took them. It even says you take them. Taking a level increases your ECL.)

[Andorn]

Also all your math ignored the rules for Starting a character with LA (the rules say that you start with 1k XP if you have +1 LA).


Where on earth does it say that???

[Andorn]

The core point remains that there is literally no provision in the general rules nor the specific bloodline level rules for losing XP. It speaks solely of "taking" a bloodline level. That means it MUST fill the "level slot" you have available when you take it; if it does not, then you immediately gain ANOTHER level of any sort you like, and the bloodline level didn't cost a thing. At all. It in fact just gave you MORE bonuses. If that was the intent, there would be no penalty for failing to take bloodline levels. In fact, you should take them all at level 1, because you can and they cost you nothing and they let you push your skill rank caps and any CL you might get from your very first class level up by 3.


Actually, there are lots of provisions in the rules for losing XP. You spend XP for certain spells, like wish. You spend XP to make magic items. You lose XP when you lose a level after being raised from the dead, and for negative levels that become permanent. If I looked hard, I'd probably find some other ones I can't think of off the top of my head. Spending XP for a bloodline level isn't much of a stretch.



Now, "it would be broken" isn't a RAW argument. But it is a point to keep track of when discussing whether something would really work that way.


Yes, it is, it is one of the arguments I've been making. Scoring a bloodline level as a full character level, with only meager benefits, would be a very broken way of interpreting what the designer tried to do.



The RAW state that you take a bloodline level. When you take a level, your ECL increases. It has to, because your XP doesn't decrease when you level up; your XP determines what level you ARE.


Yeah, except everything else about this, from the way it is written, from the exclusions provided, to the game balance effect, to comments from the designer himself, indicate it isn't a real level.



If, as you say, the Bloodline level does NOT increase his level, then what happens?


The rules leave a big gaping hole on how to handle the player's XP total. As I see it, there are two choices:

A) adjust all the values at which future real character levels are gained.
B) just subtract off the amount of XP needed to gain the next level from the player's total. They "paid" for the bloodline level with a level's worth of XP, without affecting their character level.

I recommend B, as it is easier, and not without precedent, as players spend XP for other things as well. Either way, it is balanced, the player earned XP that went to pay for the benefits of the bloodline level. The player didn't get the benefit of a full level, so they don't have to suffer the price of gaining a real level...slower XP gain from future encounters, and higher XP cost for gaining the next real level.



This preserves the notion of balance purported in paying for the bloodline powers with bloodline levels, because it is a legitimate cost (hit points, BAB, save bonuses, skill points). It avoids awkward questions about how to adjust XP when no XP adjustment is listed, or how to handle a level that isn't a level when the XP says you should have a certain number of levels. It is similar to Savage Species approaches to monster "class" levels, and has the same motive as a Level Adjustment. And it is 100% consistent with the RAW, requiring no extra words be read into it that are not there, and no extra rules be invented to handle things that arise from it.

A lot of that is true, but imposing a full level for the meager powers of a bloodline level isn't worth it, why would anybody do it? They become a level higher, without the vast majority of benefits that come from a real level. Why would anybody ever choose a bloodline level, vs. taking a full class level, with the full benefits of a class level? It makes no sense. Game designers make mistakes, they're human. But they do try to make the rules make sense. If something doesn't, then we should chose the interpretation that works best.

[Beheld]

Where on earth does it say that???


Having a Level Adjustment doesn't magically give you XP. See the Lycanthropy rules for backup: afflicted Lycanthropes get a bunch of HD and LA, but their XP doesn't jump. They just don't get to gain any more levels until their XP catches up with their ECL.

Gaining a LA template doesn't magically grant XP, but having a level adjustment at character creation does:


Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level: To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels. The monster is considered to have experience points equal to the minimum needed to be a character of its ECL.

[Andorn]

The Bloodline Levels text says that they don't raise your level the way normal levels do, implying that they ARE levels, but that they don't do it quite the same way.


No, it doesn't imply that.



(Hint: they're CALLED bloodline LEVELS. They're levels. They behave like levels except as noted. It says they don't give BAB, HD, saves, or skill points. IT does NOT say that they leave your ECL the same as it was before you took them. It even says you take them. Taking a level increases your ECL.)

Spell levels are levels, too, but they aren't character levels, they are spell levels. Vestige levels aren't character levels, class levels, spell levels, encounter levels, or any other kind of levels. Utterance levels aren't character levels, class levels, caster levels, spell levels, vestige levels, encounter levels, or any other kind of levels. More powerful utterances from the Lexicon of the Perfected Map, that characters gain access to at higher levels, are numbered from 1st to 4th level.

So, screaming that a LEVEL is a LEVEL isn't accurate. Lots of things in the game are called levels, but they aren't all apples. Clearly, bloodline levels aren't real class levels. All the exceptions make it clear they are something else, and should be viewed as something else, not shoehorned into a slot where they don't fit properly. It clearly isn't written properly. The best thing we can do is treat them based on the power of the benefits they provide. They don't provide enough benefit to be treated as full class levels.

No, it doesn't say explicitly that they don't leave your ECL the same. However, twice it implies it: it says they don't raise a character's character level, and in the intro it says a static level adjustment isn't appropriate, because of the very gradual power gain over a span of 20 levels.

Also, the designer has said they don't provide for feat gain or character stat gain. So, are you going to bump up the levels at which characters gain feats and stat points? Are you going to bump up the level at which characters become epic, and qualify for epic feats? because, if they don't provide level progression to get level-based feats and stat increases, then they probably don't provide level progression to qualify for epic feats and abilities, either.

[Segev]

Actually, there are lots of provisions in the rules for losing XP. You spend XP for certain spells, like wish. You spend XP to make magic items. You lose XP when you lose a level after being raised from the dead, and for negative levels that become permanent. If I looked hard, I'd probably find some other ones I can't think of off the top of my head. Spending XP for a bloodline level isn't much of a stretch.None of which are relevant here, except to accentuate the fact that the rules HERE provide no such provision. This has been my point all along: there are no rules provided by the Bloodline level section for reducing your XP amount; the rules for doing so everywhere that it is needed are printed. You list some examples here. Given the lack of rules saying to do so, you don't here.




Yes, it is, it is one of the arguments I've been making. Scoring a bloodline level as a full character level, with only meager benefits, would be a very broken way of interpreting what the designer tried to do.Alright. If you wish to make this argument...

No. You are 100% backwards on this. It is broken to NOT treat it like a level. If you do not have it increase ECL, you are giving free bonuses to skill rank cap and to a number of class feature calculations for literally free.

Premise: Bloodline levels are meant to "pay" for the perks of the Bloodline.
1) To pay for something, you must be giving something up.
2) Gaining rank cap increases and +1 to the level of various classes for purposes of calculating things based on class level is a bonus, not a penalty.
3) Not gaining an HD, BAB for that HD, save bonuses for that HD, and skill points for that HD is a cost only if you would normally receive an HD and all the rest of it.
4) You only "pay" something that would normally give you an HD if you count the bloodline level as a level for purposes of seeing how much XP you need to gain your next level (and its attendant HD).
Conclusion: The Bloodline level is only a cost that you pay if you count it as a level towards your ECL; if you do not, it is 100% free power (per point 2) on top of the free power from the bloodline.




Yeah, except everything else about this, from the way it is written, from the exclusions provided, to the game balance effect, to comments from the designer himself, indicate it isn't a real level.False. Everything listed (except possibly the comments from the designer, which I cannot verify nor see in context) says exactly the opposite, that a bloodline level is a level. The fact that it's called a "bloodline level" and that it is referred to as being "taken" as a level indicates it is a level.




The rules leave a big gaping hole on how to handle the player's XP total.Only if you read into it a rule that isn't there. If you read it as written, with it being a level, there is no gaping hole at all. You treat it like any other level on your XP chart.


As I see it, there are two choices:

A) adjust all the values at which future real character levels are gained.
B) just subtract off the amount of XP needed to gain the next level from the player's total. They "paid" for the bloodline level with a level's worth of XP, without affecting their character level.

I recommend B, as it is easier, and not without precedent, as players spend XP for other things as well. Either way, it is balanced, the player earned XP that went to pay for the benefits of the bloodline level. The player didn't get the benefit of a full level, so they don't have to suffer the price of gaining a real level...slower XP gain from future encounters, and higher XP cost for gaining the next real level.In other words, you acknowledge you need house rules to make your reading work.

I point out again that you only need house rules because your reading introduces rules that are not there, and those rules cascade to create more holes in the system that need patching.

Now, having added this, you've re-introduced a cost...but it's a negligible one that would still be well worth paying on its own any number of times for the increases it gives to power without raising ECL. This is hardly balanced.



A lot of that is true, but imposing a full level for the meager powers of a bloodline level isn't worth it, why would anybody do it?Er... why would anybody take a race with a punitive LA? The designers overvalue bonuses. Though, frankly, the designer clearly agrees that full levels are too much to pay; that's why they give some bonuses with them. If they weren't meant to actually take the place of levels, they would not need to increase rank caps and give +1 effective level to class-based calculations.


They become a level higher, without the vast majority of benefits that come from a real level.That is correct. Because it's paying that HD, BAB, etc. for the bloodline perks that they get throughout their 20-level career.


Why would anybody ever choose a bloodline level, vs. taking a full class level, with the full benefits of a class level?Why would anybody take a half-dragon template?


Game designers make mistakes, they're human. But they do try to make the rules make sense. If something doesn't, then we should chose the interpretation that works best.I agree. However, it is very clear that game designers have repeatedly - especially early in 3.5 - over-valued various bonuses when they come from "race," and thus made LAs and other, similar things which are too costly for what they give. If you feel that's the case with Bloodlines, that's not surprising. But Bloodline levels absolutely are meant to be exactly as big a cost as you have outlined, here, and, per the RAW, they ARE that big of a cost. If you don't feel it's worth it, that's fair enough. But that doesn't change that what you propose turns a cost into an additional benefit.

It's like saying, "Well, since nobody would give up whole levels for the Half Dragon template, clearly the Level Adjustment is how many extra class levels they start with at 0 XP for having taken the template. That makes it worth having!"

It's MEANT to be a cost. Yes, the cost is relatively high. Yes, it's fair to look at hte perks and say, "that's not worth it." But that doesn't change what it is. You just value the perks lower than the designer did.

[rrwoods]

It's pretty apparent to me what the (main) problem is with bloodline's RAW. The ways in which they act like levels (or don't) fall under three categories:
* ways they explicitly DO act like levels (raise skill rank maximum, effects that count levels count them)
* ways they explicitly DON'T act like levels (no HD, no BAB/saves)
* ways they helpfully leave out for us to argue about

It's that third category that's a problem (obviously) and the rest of the text is nowhere near as clear as it needs to be to determine what's what in that regard. Many people here seem to think it is, for some reason, but really it's just not clear enough to give us what the "right" ruling is.

[Andorn]

No. You are 100% backwards on this. It is broken to NOT treat it like a level. If you do not have it increase ECL, you are giving free bonuses to skill rank cap and to a number of class feature calculations for literally free.


They aren't free. That is disingenuous of you. They are paid for with XP, just like you pay for certain spells you cast, and magic items you create. You're right, it isn't spelled out in the rules, but it is the easiest way to deal with it, that maintains balance, and conforms to the intent expressed by the designer.



Premise: Bloodline levels are meant to "pay" for the perks of the Bloodline.
1) To pay for something, you must be giving something up.
2) Gaining rank cap increases and +1 to the level of various classes for purposes of calculating things based on class level is a bonus, not a penalty.
3) Not gaining an HD, BAB for that HD, save bonuses for that HD, and skill points for that HD is a cost only if you would normally receive an HD and all the rest of it.
4) You only "pay" something that would normally give you an HD if you count the bloodline level as a level for purposes of seeing how much XP you need to gain your next level (and its attendant HD).
Conclusion: The Bloodline level is only a cost that you pay if you count it as a level towards your ECL; if you do not, it is 100% free power (per point 2) on top of the free power from the bloodline.


<rolls eyes>




False. Everything listed (except possibly the comments from the designer, which I cannot verify nor see in context) says exactly the opposite, that a bloodline level is a level. The fact that it's called a "bloodline level" and that it is referred to as being "taken" as a level indicates it is a level.


I posted links to the designer's comments. Yeah, it is sort of a level, but it is not a character level, the rules say so. If it was a real level, you'd get all the real benefits you get when you take a real level. Since you don't get the real benefits of a level, it isn't a real level. And, it's not a level adjustment, the text excluded that at the very beginning of the rules section.

So, the only thing left that makes any sense is to treat it as a cost of some sort, and just deduct the XP from the player's total. It is the only thing that maintains actual play balance, and is most consistent with the intent expressed by the designer.



Only if you read into it a rule that isn't there. If you read it as written, with it being a level, there is no gaping hole at all. You treat it like any other level on your XP chart.


If you read it as written, you get the abilities and everything for no actual cost, since no actual cost is specified. That makes no sense, either.



In other words, you acknowledge you need house rules to make your reading work.


I've been saying that all along. The writing is messed up, and in some cases flat out wrong (like class levels for skill rank cap, when skill rank cap is based on character level, not individual class levels). The only thing to do is find a simple mechanism that makes it work. That mechanism is to just deduct XP when a bloodline "level" is "taken", as the cost of gaining the abilities. A cost that is paid incrementally as the character gains levels, and gains the abilities, incrementally. A cost that doesn't otherwise stick it to the player, by taking up 1-3 real character levels without all the essential things that real character levels give: hit points, skill points, actual new class abilities, BAB, saving throws, and advancement towards level-based feats and stat points.

If you aren't getting the essential things that come with a real level, then you will be woefully handicapped in power when it comes to combat with actual foes of your ECL. That would be a very broken interpretation.



I point out again that you only need house rules because your reading introduces rules that are not there, and those rules cascade to create more holes in the system that need patching.


Nonsense. If you adopt your rule interpretation, then characters will suffer all the handicaps I have spelled out, for mostly minor gains in power which will not offset the deficits or the cost.



Now, having added this, you've re-introduced a cost...but it's a negligible one that would still be well worth paying on its own any number of times for the increases it gives to power without raising ECL. This is hardly balanced.


What cost have I "re-introduced"???



Er... why would anybody take a race with a punitive LA?


Errr, roleplaying reasons? FUN? Why make the LA punitive? Let the players enjoy themselves. Provide a mechanism to make it work, rather than making the cost so obnoxious that nobody would ever be willing to do it. Honestly, sometimes game designers and rules lawyers who are just looking for reasons why something can't be done should all have "Killjoy" tattooed on their foreheads.



The designers overvalue bonuses. Though, frankly, the designer clearly agrees that full levels are too much to pay; that's why they give some bonuses with them. If they weren't meant to actually take the place of levels, they would not need to increase rank caps and give +1 effective level to class-based calculations.


Well, since you acknowledge that the designer didn't want the cost to be a full level, why do you keep insisting that the price be a full level (or three, for a major bloodline)?



That is correct. Because it's paying that HD, BAB, etc. for the bloodline perks that they get throughout their 20-level career.


So, you think that giving up 3 full levels worth of benefits (hit dice, skill points, BAB, saving throws, new spells/class features, advancement for level feats and skill points, and probably a delay in reaching epic abilities) in exchange for what you get is balanced?



It's MEANT to be a cost. Yes, the cost is relatively high. Yes, it's fair to look at hte perks and say, "that's not worth it." But that doesn't change what it is. You just value the perks lower than the designer did.

No, you are valuing the benefits higher than the designer did, so you are reading things into what the designer wrote that aren't there so you can impose a higher cost.

Game balance means the cost/benefit either way is equivalent, so you can do it or not, and not be influenced by power balance. If it is balanced, then players can choose bloodline levels or not, as their sense of fun dictates. If you set it up so the cost is prohibitive, then why bother? It becomes a forgone conclusion that nobody would ever choose to play with those features because the cost is too high. That reduces the fun of the game. What do you get out of that?

If you read the interviews with Andy Collins, you'll see that he imposed NO COSTS for bloodline levels in his own game. I guess he figured there should be some cost to it in the general rules, but he didn't want to impose full level costs. If that had been his intent, he could have just said they were full on levels, like the paragon system.

[Andorn]

Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level: To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels. The monster is considered to have experience points equal to the minimum needed to be a character of its ECL.


Ah, I see. I had to look at that for a few minutes to wrap my head around it, but then I realized it just doesn't matter. Why, you may ask?

Because it makes no real difference if you start at 0 and have to go to 2000 to gain your first class level, or if you go from 1,000 to 3,000. Either way, your next level is +2000 XP.

Maybe you could argue that having 1000 XP in the bank is better, in case you cast something that has an XP cost. But at character level 1? I can't think of anything offhand.

Oh, wait. I think there are some methods where characters can share XP costs for magic item creation. In that case, finding a bunch of level 1 monsters with base XP might be exploitable. So it's probably better to start XP at 0, in spite of what WotC's dumb accounting system says.

[Andorn]

It's pretty apparent to me what the (main) problem is with bloodline's RAW. The ways in which they act like levels (or don't) fall under three categories:
* ways they explicitly DO act like levels (raise skill rank maximum, effects that count levels count them)
* ways they explicitly DON'T act like levels (no HD, no BAB/saves)
* ways they helpfully leave out for us to argue about

It's that third category that's a problem (obviously) and the rest of the text is nowhere near as clear as it needs to be to determine what's what in that regard. Many people here seem to think it is, for some reason, but really it's just not clear enough to give us what the "right" ruling is.

Pretty succinct.

Ways they act like real levels:
* raise skill rank maximum
* raise class abilities that are based on class level
* uses the word "level" in text that refers to the mechanics

Ways they don't act like real levels
* No hit dice
* No BAB
* No saving throw bonuses
* No skill points
* No progression on spell tables
* No new class abilities
* No advancement of class abilities whose advancement is tabularized (sneak attack, EB, etc)
* No progression for feats based on character levels
* No progression for stat points based on character levels
* No advancement of character abilities based on character level
* If you don't take a bloodline level on schedule, you suffer a 20% XP penalty until you do
* RAW specifically argues against a static level adjustment
* RAW specifically says bloodline levels don't increase a character's character level, like a normal class level does

Things being argued about:
* Should we read into the qualifiers in the text that they raise character level in some other way?
* Should costs/benefits of different approaches affect reaching a consensus on whether or not BL affect ECL?

Things we *could* argue about (which would be more productive):
* How should we evaluate designer's statements that bloodline levels were totally free in his campaign?
* Since BLs don't count for gaining level-based feats and stat increases, should they also postpone epic entry?
* Since a bloodline represents some ancestral cuckoo in the family tree, is it possible to have more than one bloodline?
* What is the difference between minor, intermediate, and major bloodlines? Number of generations? Strength of the ancestor? Some combination of the two?


My position in a nutshell:
1) Bloodline levels are so different in the way they work from normal levels that they are clearly NOT normal levels. So, despite the fact they are called "levels", they are not character levels, or class levels, but some other type of level. This isn't spelled out in the text, but when it comes to looking at their features, it is pretty clear, at least to me.

2) There are significant costs associated with a higher character level:
A) your next level is more expensive.
B) being a level higher, you gain less XP from the encounters that you fight. To gain parity, you have to fight tougher stuff. To be considered a level high while being denied the benefits normally gained from a character level is wrong.
C) the cumulative effects of multiple BLs makes these costs grow as the character progresses.

Incurring these costs without gaining the benefits you gain with a normal level is too high a price, game balance wise, for what you get from having a bloodline. Whether you have a minor, intermediate, or major bloodline, the system is set up so that you have to pay the BL before you get the 3rd ability. So, you get a +2 to one skill check somewhere, and a specified feat (which if you already have you'd then get no benefit from). Then you either take the bloodline level, or pay a 20% XP penalty for the rest of the character's life. To impose a full character level without the character getting all the standard benefits of a real level, for the minor benefits a bloodline grants, is too much.

If you take the bloodline level, you get a slightly higher skill cap (which has little to no combat effect,) and a +1 level to calculated class abilities, which is a significant benefit, but these benefits are far less in total than you get from a real class level, or from a template that is good enough to come with a level adjustment.

3) The designer has stated that they do not advance character level for the purpose of gaining level-based feats or stat increases. To treat them as a character level would require adjusting the levels at which the character would then get feats and stat points. That is unsupported by RAW anywhere else, it is complicated, unnecessary, and downright silly.

4) The facts that the designer gave them out in his game for free, that the RAW states he didn't want a static level adjustment, and that they don't advance character level the way a normal class level does do, that they provide no advancement for getting level-based feats or stat points, are sufficient for me to believe they do not affect ECL.

5) So we are left with an implementation problem, a gaping hole you can drive a truck through: How to handle the XP? I believe the easiest way to do it is to just deduct the XP from the player's total. It is not without precedent, as other things also cause XP to be deducted from a player's total. Nothing in the game has ever caused the XP level chart to be revised, so just deducting the XP is far less troublesome.

5) In my opinion, it is easier to deduct the XP than it is to treat it as a character level. it is more balanced cost vs benefit than it would be to make it a character level of some sort, and it is more consistent with the intent the designer has expressed.

[tsj]

So, you think they intended to make the character 1 level higher with each bloodline level, but deny that character the hit die, BAB, saving throw bonuses, skill points, and new spells per level, feats, stat increases, and class abilities?

That makes no sense.

The character is either a level higher or it isn't. If you aren't getting all the stuff I just mentioned, it makes no sense to treat the character as 1 level higher when it is XP award time.

As for the "free stuff" at level 1 and 2, if you don't take the bloodline level, you forever after suffer a 20% penalty to XP. What's "free" about that?

I see nothing about a 20% XP penalty anywhere?
What I do see, is strong evidence that a major bloodline has an alternate LA of 3.

Alternate LA vs regular LA: The only difference that I can see, is that instead of paying the 3 levels upfront as you would do with a regular LA, the alternate LA is instead spread across levels 3, 6 & 12 in the case of a major bloodline.

Other than that I agree with other posters that everything has been said already.

Suggestion for house rule:
Add HD & saves to bloodline levels and LA in your games if you feel that you give up to much to gain the benefits. ...
D20 et al are just game systems, their role is to
support role play, when or if rules get in the way of that, house rule it away using your awesome DM power! :)

[Rijan_Sai]

Alright, so both sides have been argued, debated, bullet-pointed, and whatever else to death and back again. Multiple times. For many years.

The way I see it, (and this is just my view strictly from reading through this thread,) is that there are two ways to look at it:

(Assuming no LA/RHD; using the Exp formula rather then the table.)

Option 1:
0xp: Class Level 1 (ECL 1, feat)
+1000xp: CL 2 (ECL 2)
+2000xp: Bloodline Level 1 (ECL 3, no feat)
+3000xp: CL 3 (ECL 4, feat, no stat)
+4000xp: CL 4 (ECL 5, stat)
etc.

Option 2:
0xp: CL 1 (ECL 1, feat)
+1000xp: CL 2 (ECL 2)
+2000xp: CL 2 + BL 1 (ECL 2)
+2000xp: CL 3 + BL 1 (ECL 3, feat)
+3000xp: CL 4 + BL 1 (ECL 4, stat)
etc.

Option 1 does weird things to the feat and stat gains, Option 2 does weird things to the Xp amounts.

You're the DM. You choose to allow Bloodlines in your game. Choose the option that works best for you, go with it, have fun.
You're the player. The DM has allowed Bloodlines in his/her game. Respect his/her decision, go with it, have fun.


I see nothing about a 20% XP penalty anywhere?
Bloodline Levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#bloodlineLevels), third paragraph:

if he reaches 3rd character level and has no bloodline levels, he does not gain the bloodline trait due him at 3rd character level (Strength +1) and must take a 20% reduction on all future XP gains.

[animewatcha]

When it comes to buyign these bloodline levels. Only at specific levels for each or can you pay for all 3 when xp allows and wind up be x-class 2 / x-bloodline 3?

[Andorn]

When it comes to buyign these bloodline levels. Only at specific levels for each or can you pay for all 3 when xp allows and wind up be x-class 2 / x-bloodline 3?

The RAW doesn't say anything about that, the only requirement is you take them before certain levels or suffer XP penalties and don't get any more of the BL abilities/bonuses until you do. Strictly RAW, you could take all 3 levels at level 1. If you have two bloodlines, you could take 6 levels.

You'd have a level 7 magic missile, but still be level 1. You'd have no more spells than a level 1 wizard or sorc, you'd get no feats or stat points or hit points or anything. Your max skill rank would be 10, but that doesn't help if you don't gain a real level, because BL levels don't give any skill points to actually raise your skills. You'd be a level 1 character who spent 6,000 XP and has a really great magic missile.

Of course, while gaining 6000 xp you've probably expanded your spell book quite a bit, and gained some gear. If you are a sorc on the other hand, gear is good, but you haven't gained any versatility at all, no new spells.

Something new to wonder about: how do you actually train up a bloodline level? Does it even require training?

[Andorn]

Option 1 does weird things to the feat and stat gains, Option 2 does weird things to the Xp amounts.


Option 2 is easy if you just subtract off the XP. Then nothing changes.

[Rijan_Sai]

Option 2 is easy if you just subtract off the XP. Then nothing changes.

Oh I know, that's why I used the fomula rather then totals. Whether you subtract the "spent" xp, or keep a running total, it still takes 5000 total xp to reach level 3 with option 2.

As for the question of when to take them, yes you could potentially take all three at 1->2, but (personally) I believe it's the most "balanced"* to take them at the given breaker points, (3, 6 and 12, respectively.)

(If anyone wants to know, I play by option 2, but I do see and understand the way 1 could work.)

*As "balanced" as anything else in 3.5 is...

[Segev]

I was all set to try a detailed response, but I found myself, honestly, getting bored with reading the rebuttal. Especially when a (literally) logically presented argument was replied to with "<rolls eyes>." This tells me that we're not going to make any progress, since anything that can't be made into a straw man or ignored is going to be dismissed without thought. I am...disappointed.

You're welcome to continue to insist that your reading of it is "right" despite admitting that multiple extra rules that are not in any way present must be invented to handle your way, while mine is "wrong" despite working without needing to invent nor add anything, just because you feel what I point to the RAW to find is too high a cost, in your opinion.

Honestly, we're past the point where even agreeing about the RAW matters. If you want to call your house rule (which has to be, by definition, since your reading requires inventing XP-expenditure rules, if only to define how much XP to spend) the RAW, that's fine. If you want to call my reading of the RAW "house rules," that's fine. If you think my "house rules" are brokenly underpowered, thta's also fine.

None of us are playing, to my knowledge, at each others' tables, so in practice, this argument no longer matters. Minds are made up, so things will be run as the mind in charge of the table says. Enjoy your game; I am sorry we could not convince each other, as I really like coming to agreement on what is and is not true. However, it really doesn't matter beyond understanding each others' positions. I believe I understand yours to my satisfaction. I hope you understand mine, despite disagreeing with it. If you do not, I apologize for my failure to express it clearly enough. But I literally cannot think of any other way to phrase it than I already have. So if my reasoning is not clear, then I have failed to express myself well. Either way, I can contribute nothing more to this conversation, barring somebody new coming in and not having read what I already wrote.

[tsj]

Rian sai:
Ah yes thanks, I did not notice that last time.



As for the "free stuff" at level 1 and 2, if you don't take the bloodline level, you forever after suffer a 20% penalty to XP. What's "free" about that?

You are correct. I did not read that part. So basically the bloodline stuff is bulletproof
As in no free stuff. ..

I still see the actual "bloodline levels" as a kind of LA, the stuff you get at each level in a bloodline is not part of the LA per say.

For a major bloodline i.e.:

If you do not take the LA at levels 3, 6 & 12 you gain no more bloodline stuff and pay for the current stuff by losing 20% of your XP

So yes, you always have these options with bloodline levels:

Major :

benefits at levels 1&2 + 20% XP penalty or

benefits at levels 1&2&3 + LA 1 or

benefits at levels 1, 2, 3, 4 & 5
+ LA 1 + 20% XP penalty or

benefits at levels 1-6 + LA 2 or

benefits at levels 1-11 + LA 2 + 20% XP penalty or

benefits at levels 1-20 + LA 3

Same system with the 2 other types of bloodline levels, ie. Minor bloodline you pay just one LA OR 20% XP penalty