What do classes NEED to be Teirs 3 or 4? Or im Homebrewing stuff and seek Knowledge

[Blackhawk748]

Ok theres no actual Homebrew in here, as i havent made the classes yet, im just trying to figure out what they all need. Firstly, the goal here is to make sure everyone is around Tiers 3-4 base, Secondly this will be E6 so the classes would only be 6 levels long. Now to the concepts:

The Warrior:
Effectively the Fighter crossed with the UA Warrior, can take feats or certain Abilities at most levels. Will have 4+ Int skills. Sneak Attack, Skirmish, and the Knights Challenge Abilities will be on the Ability list, not sure what else to add.

The Berzerker
Its the Barbarian you all know and love, except you choose a Totem at character creation, and you get a few abilities based on that. So no more automatic Jaguar Barbarian.

The Hunter
Ranger/Scout Hybrid

The Rogue
Normal Rogue, except he automatically gains Poison Use and Death Attack from the Assassin at lvl 5 and 6 respectively. Thinking about adding Insightful Strike in at lvl 3

The Bard
You normal everyday Bard

The Monk
Getting a complete overhaul, Full BaB, can wear Light armor, add Wis to a few things.

The Mage
Inspired from the UA Spellcaster, this will fill all casting needs not filled by the Bard. Will use a Power Point based system.

The Guardian
The Paladin fused with the Soulborn. They make magical gear with the power of their souls and use it to protect others.

These are the classes at their most basic, so what do they need (or cant have) to be around Tier 3-4?

[Der_DWSage]

Hm. The quintessential Tier 3-ness requires that you be able to have a tool-not even a particularly good one, just a tool-for every situation. This can include skills, but that's on shaky ground. So I'd say that a tier 3. Let's look at the 3 situations JaronK described with the original tier list.

1.Deal with a Black Dragon that has been plaguing the area. His cave is filled with traps. (In other words, be able to deal with combat and environmental dangers.)
2.Make contact with the leader of a local rebellion, and get him to trust you. (Information gathering and social encounters.)
3.A huge army of orcs is going to attack the city. (Combat situation against a group so large it stops being 'a single opponent' and more becomes 'a force of nature.')

I'm ignoring the 'single combat' portion, as most people tend to focus too much on that, and you seem to have it fairly well covered already. And balancing for combat is a whole other beast that I don't feel like going into at the moment. So in essence, a Tier 3 character needs the following.

1.A way of dealing with social encounters. Whether this is having Diplomacy/Bluff/Sense Motive as class skills, class features or spells that let you find things out, or some other method of talking to people is irrelevant. The Warrior, Berzerker, and Guardian seem to lack this, unless they have the aforementioned skills.

2.A way of discovering information. Spot/Listen/Search/Sense Motive, class features, etc. The same three are lacking here.

3.Environmental dangers. Spot/Listen/Search again, as well as some means of dealing with traps. This tends to be the most easily overlooked, as all you really need is a single person with the means of dealing with this. It should be noted that most tier 3 classes also have a way of dealing with magical threats, whether through the Rogue's means of disabling magical traps, Dispel Magic, Detect Magic, or things of that nature.

4.Force of nature. A tricky one, but it's worth looking into. What do your classes bring to the table when they can't fight directly? Whether it's being able to get into the source of the issue (Assassinating leaders, disabling the source of a magical storm, etc.) or being able to help others avoid the fallout, (Evacuating civilians, tanking enough hits to be a platoon of army regulars by themselves, enhancing the mundanes assisting them) it's interesting to see what you can think of the class adding when it's not a strict combat encounter.

I hope this is helpful, even with the rambling nature of the last portion.

[Blackhawk748]

It is helpful, thanks. I think the easiest solution is to make sure that every class has at least Diplomacy/Listen/Sense Motive/Spot on their skill lists. Ive never actually thought it to be particularly unreasonable that everyone can be good at these things if they try.

4. is the tricky one here. The Guardian (if it works out well) should be able to handle the tanking part, as thats the whole shtick of the class. Warrior could easily have the Marshall's Aura as an option. Berzerker.... Other than the Lion Totems Roar, or just being a Tripbarian, ive got nothing.

[Der_DWSage]

I'd just like to point out that having those as class skills is the minimum they need in order to contribute in such situations. After all, the Rogue has all those as class skills, and the skill points to back them up, and is still tier 4.

[johnbragg]

From Jaronk's original essay on the Tier system,


Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area

Note that in my opinion or in my gaming experience, JaronK's tier system over-emphasizes skills and under-emphasizes combat. It's a rare campaign where an Expert is going to keep up with a full BAB Tier 5 class.

Your Mage looks like a Tier 2. But at low levels, that's not as big a problem. At level 6 you have an invisible flyer, but he or she's not planar binding minions to planar bind more minions.

I see you've given the Warrior the Rogue's classic Sneak Attack. If you're poaching the Rogue's specialty, can I suggest a new twist on the Rogue?
The Rogue believes in luck. But the Rogue also intuits the "red pill" of Matrix fame, and how to bend the world in his or her favor.
1. For any d20 roll, the Rogue can instead choose to roll 3d6. No critical hits, no fumbles, no "I ROLLED A FOUR!" on Moving Silently.
2. If the Rogue chooses, he can spend power points to roll more d6.

[johnbragg]

I'd just like to point out that having those as class skills is the minimum they need in order to contribute in such situations. After all, the Rogue has all those as class skills, and the skill points to back them up, and is still tier 4.

Actually, from a quick look, most of the classes are Tier 4-5 more than Tier 3. Which is fine--before 3rd edition, we played Tier 5 classes all the time and had a blast. The problem is being overshadowed by the Tier 1's. So the 'brew stands or falls on what happens with the spellcaster.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Skills are nice, but... If you look at existing T3s, there's one common element: options. Pretty much all of them have the ability to pick options from a large, versatile list. Spells, powers, maneuvers, soulmelds, whatever.

[GilesTheCleric]

Note that in my opinion or in my gaming experience, JaronK's tier system over-emphasizes skills and under-emphasizes combat. It's a rare campaign where an Expert is going to keep up with a full BAB Tier 5 class.

I think it might be because combat is easy to build for, and has a whole lot of options. The non-weapon skills in 3.X aren't as well supported, nor as fleshed-out a system. Thus, being capable in non-combat situations is a much narrower field. I'd argue that an Expert could certainly do just fine in a game that's 50% combat and 50% non-combat. Even for the combat sections, she can leverage her skills in trapmaking or diplomacy or hide or alchemy or any other number of more creative solutions. In short, skills can translate to combat with some chicanery, but combat doesn't translate to skills quite as easily (unless your idea of non-combat is shotgun diplomacy, which does have its place).

If a game is 90% combat, then the expert is going to have a trickier time, of course, but isn't entirely left out of the game. It just means she needs to think like a kama and come at a problem from the side, not like a rapier going head-on.

[Blackhawk748]

Your Mage looks like a Tier 2. But at low levels, that's not as big a problem. At level 6 you have an invisible flyer, but he or she's not planar binding minions to planar bind more minions.

I see you've given the Warrior the Rogue's classic Sneak Attack. If you're poaching the Rogue's specialty, can I suggest a new twist on the Rogue?
The Rogue believes in luck. But the Rogue also intuits the "red pill" of Matrix fame, and how to bend the world in his or her favor.
1. For any d20 roll, the Rogue can instead choose to roll 3d6. No critical hits, no fumbles, no "I ROLLED A FOUR!" on Moving Silently.
2. If the Rogue chooses, he can spend power points to roll more d6.

Im probably gonna do a bit of an overhaul on the Spell List, but yes, if the Mage went past lvl 6 they would totally be Teir 2, as it is id say they are a solid 3.

While the Warrior has Sneak Attack as an Option its one of many, basically the Warrior is Build a Bruiser. Still i may give the Rogue Assassin spells in recompense for swiping their shtick.


I'd just like to point out that having those as class skills is the minimum they need in order to contribute in such situations. After all, the Rogue has all those as class skills, and the skill points to back them up, and is still tier 4.

This is true, but its also the easiest solution, and the first one i could think of. Mostly i cant see what else you give a Warrior type to make them function in a Social encounter, as that is where other classes should shine.

I guess while im not against Martial types being decent at Social stuff, i feel they shouldnt be the best at it. I mean they're supposed the be good at combat, and hopefully that will be true for these :smalltongue:

[Cosi]

I don't think a system that claims Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Binder are equivalent in power is going to be a useful tool for balancing anything. FFS, it has Rogue in the same tier as Adept. You're much better off trying to build classes that can beat level appropriate challenges throughout the game.

Balancing against a list that puts full 9ths casters at the same point as classes that do not function as written cannot possibly produce reasonable results. The spread on T3 is from "could plausibly be MVP in a party with a Wizard, a Cleric, and a Druid" to "base class is obsolete by 10th". You could put whatever you want in T3, and no one could tell you that you were wrong based on what is currently in that tier.

[johnbragg]

I don't think a system that claims Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Binder are equivalent in power is going to be a useful tool for balancing anything. FFS, it has Rogue in the same tier as Adept. You're much better off trying to build classes that can beat level appropriate challenges throughout the game.

Balancing against a list that puts full 9ths casters at the same point as classes that do not function as written cannot possibly produce reasonable results. The spread on T3 is from "could plausibly be MVP in a party with a Wizard, a Cleric, and a Druid" to "base class is obsolete by 10th". You could put whatever you want in T3, and no one could tell you that you were wrong based on what is currently in that tier.

I'd like to ask the OP if he wants a full-throated discussion of the merits of the Tier system in the thread. There are always people up for such a discussion, but I don't think it's going to help him build a balanced set of classes for his campaign. In fact, I think it would drown out discussion of the class ideas he's laying out. I'm going to resist the urge to keyboard warrior just because Someone Is Wrong On The Internet.

[Cosi]

I'd like to ask the OP if he wants a full-throated discussion of the merits of the Tier system in the thread. There are always people up for such a discussion, but I don't think it's going to help him build a balanced set of classes for his campaign.

It's the balance point he selected. If someone posted a thread asking about creating 9th level spells that were at the "balance point" of meteor swarm, wail of the banshee, and shapechange, the correct response would be to explain that they haven't described "a" balance point.

[johnbragg]

It's the balance point he selected. If someone posted a thread asking about creating 9th level spells that were at the "balance point" of meteor swarm, wail of the banshee, and shapechange, the correct response would be to explain that they haven't described "a" balance point.

This is true. There are two different discussions he started--the label "What do classes need to be Tier 3 or 4" and "What do the classes in my campaign need to work well and play well together." I'd ask OP which one he wants the thread to focus on.

I think his classes, as described, all are in a range that should work well together (Mage aside--we don't know enough yet). Do you agree?

[MisterKaws]

Just don't mind the tier system, it doesn't work in E6, and every class will eventually become a tier 3 plainly because of their enormous amount of feats.

[johnbragg]

Just don't mind the tier system, it doesn't work in E6, and every class will eventually become a tier 3 plainly because of their enormous amount of feats.

Well, it helps establish a common language, and gives a quick reference. I'll annotate the OP with my internal monologue.

edit: And you can't just say feats make everyone Tier 3 eventually--there's a lot of E6 game play at low levels, so base Monks and Paladins can fall behind baby CoDzillas and power-attack Ragebarians for a lot of the game

The Warrior: Effectively the Fighter...Upgrading a high Tier 5

The Berzerker: Its the Barbarian ...Tier 4

The Hunter Ranger/Scout Hybrid...Melding 2 Tier 4s, so either 3 or 4

The Rogue....Tier 4

The Bard....Tier 3

The Monk: complete overhaul, Full BaB, ....Tier 5, upgraded with the full BAB package probably Tier 4

The Mage: Inspired from the UA Spellcaster, this will fill all casting needs not filled by the Bard. Will use a Power Point based system....Danger! Danger Will robinson!

The Guardian The Paladin fused with the Soulborn...2 Tier 5's, probably a Tier 4

So 5+, 4, 3/4, 4, 3, 4, Full Caster, 4. So it looks like every player's PC is going to be contributing, nobody's going to be totally overshadowed.

[Cosi]

I think his classes, as described, all are in a range that should work well together (Mage aside--we don't know enough yet). Do you agree?

First, the classes aren't really fleshed out much. The only thing available to talk about is methodology.

Second, E6 is balanced already. He probably hasn't broken anything, and the caster is very likely fine.


Just don't mind the tier system, it doesn't work in E6,

True.


and every class will eventually become a tier 3 plainly because of their enormous amount of feats.

Not so much. Some strategies (for example, metamagic stacking) continue to improve with more feats. Others (most Fighter strategies) don't. I think it's probably better to just fully cap advancement at 6th than to play with feats only advancement of default E6).

[johnbragg]

First, the classes aren't really fleshed out much. The only thing available to talk about is methodology.

C'mon, I made you a whole other thread to talk about that. :biggrin:


Second, E6 is balanced already.

True. Linear Fighter Quadratic Wizard only starts to take off with 3rd level spells.


He probably hasn't broken anything, and the caster is very likely fine.

Probably, but the UA Spellcaster has access to any spell in the book (maybe any book), and spell points systems are risky. USing the SRD UA tables, a 6th level Wizard with 18 INT has 40 spell points to throw around, with 3rd level spells costing 5 points each. I don't know if the BBEG archmage spamming fireball at the party is what OP has in mind. (Although he would still have squishy d4 + CON + Toughness hit points, so maybe)

[Flickerdart]

True. Linear Fighter Quadratic Wizard only starts to take off with 3rd level spells.
Alter self, rope trick, glitterdust, web. I could go on.

[Cosi]

C'mon, I made you a whole other thread to talk about that. :biggrin:

That doesn't make it non-responsive to this thread.


Probably, but the UA Spellcaster has access to any spell in the book (maybe any book),

Unless you count tricks like using the Demonologist list to get lesser planar binding as a 3rd level spell, I don't think that's a real danger. He doesn't have Persist to voltron together buffs, and most other good spells at that level are good because they end encounters (glitterdust, web, color spray). It's not like drawing on other lists for additional spells makes them end encounters any faster.


and spell points systems are risky. USing the SRD UA tables, a 6th level Wizard with 18 INT has 40 spell points to throw around, with 3rd level spells costing 5 points each. I don't know if the BBEG archmage spamming fireball at the party is what OP has in mind. (Although he would still have squishy d4 + CON + Toughness hit points, so maybe)

Spell point systems are bad design, but I don't they they're super high power. A 6th level Wizard on spell slots still has between 3 (2 Base + 1 Stat) and 5 (1 Base + 1 Stat + 3 Focused Specialist) 3rds per day. I very much doubt the fight is lasting more than 6 rounds, especially if the BBEG is casting save-or-lose spells.


Alter self, rope trick, glitterdust, web. I could go on.

I call party foul on alter self. Pointing to [Polymorph] or [Calling] spells as an example of power at any particular level is a no-no, because all those spells are crazy broken.

rope trick is, IMHO, just a way of negating bad DMing. Assaulting PCs while they rest just encourages them to rest more often, and other than preventing that rope trick isn't impressive.

glitterdust and web are nice, but are they really nicer than color spray and sleep? I think web might actually be worse when you get it, seeing as it just locks people down, rather than making them helpless. It scales better, but at that point we're no longer talking about pre-3rds casters.

[Flickerdart]

I call party foul on alter self. Pointing to [Polymorph] or [Calling] spells as an example of power at any particular level is a no-no, because all those spells are crazy broken.
So what? They are still contributing to the wizard's power. It may be a disproportionate contribution, but there are plenty of classes that slip by based on just one ability.

[johnbragg]

That doesn't make it non-responsive to this thread.

Yeah, but if we're not careful this thread becomes the Tier discussion, and I'm curious about OP's homebrew. (Jeez, it's like OP has a JOB or something...)


Spell point systems are bad design, but I don't they they're super high power. A 6th level Wizard on spell slots still has between 3 (2 Base + 1 Stat) and 5 (1 Base + 1 Stat + 3 Focused Specialist) 3rds per day. I very much doubt the fight is lasting more than 6 rounds, especially if the BBEG is casting save-or-lose spells.

It's still a boost to the caster, and I don't know if OP intended that or not. The other classes are all pretty easy to imagine what they're going to look like, whereas the MAge could be very different things, while still mostly matching what OP said.

[Cosi]

So what? They are still contributing to the wizard's power. It may be a disproportionate contribution, but there are plenty of classes that slip by based on just one ability.

I'd be fine with you claiming that Wizards pull ahead at 3rd on that basis, the issue is claiming that 2nd level spells pull ahead because of a single high outlier.

[Flickerdart]

I'd be fine with you claiming that Wizards pull ahead at 3rd on that basis, the issue is claiming that 2nd level spells pull ahead because of a single high outlier.
Again - so what? Having 2nd level spells is as powerful as having the most powerful 2nd level spell you have. Whether there is 1 such spell or 50 makes no difference.

[johnbragg]

Again - so what? Having 2nd level spells is as powerful as having the most powerful 2nd level spell you have. Whether there is 1 such spell or 50 makes no difference.

OK, so Flickerdart, given that the other classes in Blackhawk748's campaign are mundanes or tertiary-casters, except for the bard, what do you suggest he do to keep this guy from running wild:


The Mage
Inspired from the UA Spellcaster, this will fill all casting needs not filled by the Bard. Will use a Power Point based system.

Trying to keep this thread about the OP's campaign

[nedz]

Just don't mind the tier system, it doesn't work in E6, and every class will eventually become a tier 3 plainly because of their enormous amount of feats.

This is a good point — unless the home-brewed classes were to break the E6 design idiom.

The other issue is what happens if someone wants to order off-menu ? You end up having to design lots more classes.

E6 dodges the need to do any of this, which should be good news for the OP since this is a lot of work they can avoid.

[johnbragg]

E6 dodges the need to do any of this, which should be good news for the OP since this is a lot of work they can avoid.

I get the feeling OP really wants to. E6 means it's okay if he doesn't do a great job on upgrading the mundane classes.

[Cosi]

Again - so what? Having 2nd level spells is as powerful as having the most powerful 2nd level spell you have. Whether there is 1 such spell or 50 makes no difference.

Yes. It makes 3rd level Wizards powerful. But it doesn't make 2nd level Wizard spells in general vastly more powerful.

As far as I can tell, you made the second claim.


I get the feeling OP really wants to. E6 means it's okay if he doesn't do a great job on upgrading the mundane classes.

Honestly, I think making homebrew classes for E6 is going to be easier and better overall than doing it in standard D&D. Less abilities to consider, less power divergence, and characters are more likely to get any ability you give them.

One thing I do think, independent of balance concerns, OP could probably stand to make these classes a little more personalized to the campaign setting. Right now they feel quite generic, and I think that's totally unnecessary when you consider how easy it is to write up a specialized class that's six levels long.

[Blackhawk748]

One thing I do think, independent of balance concerns, OP could probably stand to make these classes a little more personalized to the campaign setting. Right now they feel quite generic, and I think that's totally unnecessary when you consider how easy it is to write up a specialized class that's six levels long.

They will be, this is just their basic description. Also you will notice that virtually all of the classes have magic in some form, even the Berzerker will be getting a few SU abilities, based on their totem. This is because the setting was shaped by a Magical Plague. The Warrior is the dude who's personal magic is so low as to be effectively useless, so he has a large grab bag of abilities, which the Marshall's Aura will be one of as well as several others.

As for the Spell Points, i probably explained that horribly. Im most likely just gonna swipe the Psionic casting system, as i feel it fits the best, and just apply it to the Spellcaster from UA. Im going to rework some spells and of course it wont get any Paladin, Ranger, Bard or Assassin specific spells.

Also remember that the Spellcaster from UA is Spontaneous, so that limits spells known