Sash of the War Champion + Armour Training 1/2/3/4

[Molosse]

So, not having found an official FAQ on the question I was wondering if the playground could supply one for me: If a Fighter Archetype keeps Armour Training 1 but trades out the later Armour Training iterations, for example the Dragoon, is there an official response on how this interacts with the Sash of the War Champion?

This bright red strip of cloth, stitched with images of a cheering crowd throwing garlands toward a chariot, fits across the wearer's shoulders and then diagonally down his chest to reach his opposite hip.

The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features.
Would the Fighter:
A) Gain no benefit from the +4 levels to Armour Training after level 3
B) Gain the second iteration of Armour Training in it's entirety, Heavy Armour mobility and all.
C) Gain the second iteration of Armour Training in part, gaining further reductions on ACP and increases to Max Dex.

Thanks again, official responses greatly appreciated.

[Psyren]

There is no clear answer to this one until the devs get around to FAQ-ing it. My personal ruling would be B, because by my reading, there is no class feature called "Armor Training 2" - rather, there is just "Armor Training," and the archetype keeps it from advancing to its second rung, but the item seems to provide another avenue for it to keep advancing. However, the alternate view is that "this ability replaces Armor Training 2" means that the very text in Armor Training that talks about that advancement is excised. Both arguments are defensible and neither is going to break the game (at least, not for Fighters.)

There are a couple of FAQs that come close to this topic but none that address it directly:

1) When do I count as having a class feature? (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qt8) states that if something replaces "Weapon Training 1" but not the later iterations, you gain your first Weapon Training when you'd normally gain Weapon Training 2. This leans towards my view, that the text of the base ability keeps the advancement even if one specific increment or the starting point are altered by an archetype.

2) "What counts as altering a class feature?" (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9thg) however suggests that "subfeatures" like "Weapon Training 2 and 3" can be considered as wholly separate class features from the parent feature, to the point that one archetype could replace WT2, one could replace WT3 and they would be legal to combine. That ruling would seem to suggest that if something replaces AT2, that subfeature (and therefore the associated text) simply no longer exists, and therefore the Sash has nothing to look at when treating your Fighter level as being higher.

So hopefully showing this post to your GM can help them make a decision one way or the other.

[grarrrg]

Your item does nothing.
The simplest way to look at it is this:
A level 3 Dragoon would have a +1 bonus, and full speed in Medium armor.
A level 7 Dragoon would also have a +1 bonus, and full speed in Medium armor.
A level 20 Dragoon would also also have a +1 bonus, and full speed in Medium armor.


because by my reading, there is no class feature called "Armor Training 2" - rather, there is just "Armor Training," and the archetype keeps it from advancing to its second rung, but the item seems to provide another avenue for it to keep advancing. However, the alternate view is that "this ability replaces Armor Training 2" means that the very text in Armor Training that talks about that advancement is excised.

By (very) strict RAW you may have a point.
But reading various archetypes, it is quite clear what the intent of "Armor Training 2" is.
"Armor Training 2" is simply "the next increase of bonuses you'd get from Armor Training".

The Fighter class says Armor Training starts at level 3 and advances every 4 levels thereafter.
This is basically 'editor shorthand'. Like how class features only care about levels in the class that granted them unless they specifically say "character level".
That means they don't have to write out:
"At 7th level a Fighter's Armor Training bonuses increase by 1, and they can move at full speed in Heavy Armor (these bonuses stack with those provided by Armor Training)"
"At 13th level a Fighter's Armor Training bonuses increase by 1 (these bonuses stack with those provided by Armor Training)"
"At 17th level a Fighter's Armor Training bonuses increase by 1 (these bonuses stack with those provided by Armor Training)"

A similar case would be Ecclesitheurge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/archetypes/paizo---cleric-archetypes/ecclesitheurge)/Evangelist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/archetypes/paizo---cleric-archetypes/evangelist) Clerics
Both lose some of their Channeling dice. But an item with "+4 to Cleric Channeling level" would still not get those dice back.

[Psyren]

As I said, until there's a FAQ, sparring over intent is pointless. The only opinion that will matter is that of the GM who decides how it works at their table.

[grarrrg]

As I said, until there's a FAQ, sparring over intent is pointless. The only opinion that will matter is that of the GM who decides how it works at their table.

I'm not "sparring".
I'm pointing out how I see things: You cannot get what no longer exists.

And maybe his DM will elect to do his own research into the matter. Having a variety of viewpoints/opinions/considerations in a thread ready to present would perhaps speed things along.

[Psyren]

I'm not "sparring".

I never said you were - just that there's no point in anyone doing so (us included.)



And maybe his DM will elect to do his own research into the matter. Having a variety of viewpoints/opinions/considerations in a thread ready to present would perhaps speed things along.

Indeed, which is why I posted rationale for both sides.