Ekolid Fight At Level 3

[JNAProductions]

So in a PbP game, we recently ran across an Ekolid. We're all level 3, and our forewarning consisted of "Giant, dangerous bugs".

[Starbuck_II]

According to D&D Wiki, CR 4.
So it might be a little tough.

Try not to look directly at them.
You have a less than a 50% chance for most spells to work on them at your current level.
Don't get stung.

Their AC is okay for their CR (you'll likely be able to hit it). Hp's decent. Saves are decent. Their Attk chance is decent.

[Fizban]

Those things are absolutely bonkers, as far as I'm concerned they shouldn't even exist. "Giant dangerous bugs" is a laughably useless warning. Weather or not it's possible to defeat depends heavily on how the DM plays it and how good your party is. Even one of them escaping onto the material plane should be worse than any "wightocalypse" scenario, since Wights can't fly or heal naturally or get multiple spawn off any creature they come across.

[Beheld]

According to D&D Wiki, CR 4.
So it might be a little tough.

FYI, the Ekolid is a monster in an actual book, so the homebrewed version on D&D wiki is very different.

No possession, no greater dispel, gets move action instead of standard action, no SR, lower AC, higher HP, has fast healing 5 and DR 5 cold iron, does not get Dex to damage, egg DC is lower and only does 1d6 damage coming out, but can be done multiple times in a round and nauseates on a failed save. Also the book form of madness for the Ekolid is way way way less strong, it's a -1 penalty to skill checks and requires a DC 10 concentration check to cast spells. So realistically, level 3-5 characters are going to be doing the math to see if they succeed on a 1, and then find out that because of the -1 penalty the succeed on only a 2 and a have a 5% spell failure.


"Giant dangerous bugs" is a laughably useless warning.

Do you usually expect to be told what you are facing before you face it as a PC?

[Doctor Despair]

Do you usually expect to be told what you are facing before you face it as a PC?

Well, it depends on if I have a mage specializing in Divination in the party. Probably not at level three, though I'd expect to be able to choose my (nonrandom) encounters a little at that level. Do I want to go into this hive of scum and villainy and Ekolids? Or do I want to say no to the plot hook and go hunt for bears in the woods or ask around about bandits?

[Beheld]

Well, it depends on if I have a mage specializing in Divination in the party. Probably not at level three, though I'd expect to be able to choose my (nonrandom) encounters a little at that level. Do I want to go into this hive of scum and villainy and Ekolids? Or do I want to say no to the plot hook and go hunt for bears in the woods or ask around about bandits?

How do you know it's a hive of scum and villainy and Ekolids before you get there? What if you ask around about bandits, and it turns out the bandits have been killed by an Ekolid?

I certainly think PCs should be able to use their actual abilities but I question how you pick to fight bandits instead of Ekolids if there are Ekolids in the area and not Bandits.

[Doctor Despair]

How do you know it's a hive of scum and villainy and Ekolids before you get there? What if you ask around about bandits, and it turns out the bandits have been killed by an Ekolid?

I certainly think PCs should be able to use their actual abilities but I question how you pick to fight bandits instead of Ekolids if there are Ekolids in the area and not Bandits.

I just meant that, as an example, if I am a level 3 fighter with a party and I discover a few giant crocodiles as I look into the theoretical bandit cave, assuming they don't all charge and grapple and whatnot, I might decide to look elsewhere for my adventures, whether that means seeking other quests or just travelling to the next town and trying my luck at the Random Encounter board. Of course a DM who really wants to use one type of encounter is going to use that encounter; if he was so inclined, he could have a swarm of Ekolids assault the town you retreat to. You can't plan on that though.

[Fizban]

Do you usually expect to be told what you are facing before you face it as a PC?
No, but that's not the point. Look at the "giant dangerous bugs" in the standard Monster Manual, and then look at an Ekolid. For anything other than the most bare of visuals, that description is woefully misleading. Even the dimmest of NPCs should throw in some sort of hellish/demonic/nightmare/whatever descriptor that implies more than bug.

[Malimar]

What, exactly, do you want us to tell you?

And, more importantly, why does it matter? Do you want to have or use more information than your character has?

[ZamielVanWeber]

No, but that's not the point. Look at the "giant dangerous bugs" in the standard Monster Manual, and then look at an Ekolid. For anything other than the most bare of visuals, that description is woefully misleading. Even the dimmest of NPCs should throw in some sort of hellish/demonic/nightmare/whatever descriptor that implies more than bug.

At least the fact that they drive you insane upon seeing them should have been a hint... or mentioned.

As for the difficulty it is hard to say. This thing can fly up 60 feet as a move and then do a full attack doing 6 low damage stings (but implantation) and a completely un-noteworthy bite.

The form of madness is weak, but devastating to a caster who fails it at that level, almost entirely due to how difficult it is to cleanse (reasonably a level three caster should pass the concentration check on a 5 or better).

The biggest problem is getting damage to stick on it. With an AC of 17 your attacks will be missing about 50% of the time and then your average damage per hit needs to be above 5 and your average damage per round also needs to be above 5.

This thing is just designed not to die easily. If it didn't have quickness it would just be a grindfest, but since it can move and full attack it can quickly wear down a squishy target before getting into a slugfest with the melees. I am sure you can take it down but it seems like an enemy would need to prepare for and have a decently strong party.

[Beheld]

What, exactly, do you want us to tell you?

And, more importantly, why does it matter? Do you want to have or use more information than your character has?

Nah he wanted to know if everyone else thought it was as crazy unfair as he did. At least one person said that (maybe it's not clear), others said no or at least didn't say that, but that was what he was looking for.


At least the fact that they drive you insane upon seeing them should have been a hint... or mentioned.

Well, the guy who told them about the giant bugs was insane and kept yelling about being bitten.


The form of madness is weak, but devastating to a caster who fails it at that level, almost entirely due to how difficult it is to cleanse (reasonably a level three caster should pass the concentration check on a 5 or better).

A level 3 caster has 6 ranks in concentration, if they have any con bonus at all, which they will, then they are going to succeed on less than a 5.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Nah he wanted to know if everyone else thought it was as crazy unfair as he did. At least one person said that (maybe it's not clear), others said no or at least didn't say that, but that was what he was looking for.

I decided to actually look up your party and see what was going on. Only going by character sheets this party seems like it would have been poor at dealing with an ekolid at level 3 without some forewarning. If they had advance notice it shouldn't have been too bad, but honestly the Bardsader and the DFA would probably have some usefulness issues.


A level 3 caster has 6 ranks in concentration, if they have any con bonus at all, which they will, then they are going to succeed on less than a 5.
I did the math assuming Con 14 so I am not sure how I messed that up but you are correct; assuming Con 14 they will succeed on a 3 or better. Still a fail chance that is that hard to purge is just mean on the game designers' part.

Honestly I probably wouldn't have sent on at the party yet: there are too many ways they could have a little bad luck and suddenly everything goes poorly. The DFA cannot damage this thing if it makes it's Ref save, for example. Given this party I would have said 1 with advance warning would have been okay.

[AlanBruce]

Reading the Ekolid's entry in FC I, we see a few problems for the 3rd level party (more details would be necessary from the OP, but we can go with the standard wizard, cleric, fighter and rogue).

The thing can fly, but it does not have ranged attacks, so it will have to get into melee at some point. If it does, it could potentially kill a PC with a FA, since it makes 6 plus a bite. Assuming they survive a FA, the PC in question needs to make an average of 3 to 4 Fortitude saves. Chances are he may not make all of them.

Then he dies next round when the grubs come out.

It can see through illusions and it is immune to most enchantments, so that rules out low level tactics of luring enemies into illusions or controlling them in some fashion.

Demon resistances and immunities are a pain, and at 3rd level, acquiring the right energy sources is a hit or miss, especially if there isn't enough intel on the creature by the party wizard (assuming there is one with the right knowledge ranks).

Let's say the party has a ranged attacker... the creature has DR... and not ordinary DR, the rare type, which for some reasons, its usually hard to find at your local smithy. Assuming they do find the right alloy, it has FH and it can fly. In the right scenario and terrain, it can fly away and heal up, only to ambush them again. It isn't stupid and it has decent stealth skills (at least versus a 3rd level party).

Having said that, the party ought to be smarter and, if they gather more intel, they should be able to outsmart it. It will be a difficult fight, but it can be done, not without casualties, though.

Fun fact: Ekolids can advance through character classes, not just RHD, with druid, bard, and rogue mentioned. A rogue Ekolid would be scary indeed.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Flipside they did have a 75% chance of identifying an ekolid if you use the absolutely awful rules for Knowledge in the PHB. Also I investigated further and their druid was MIA from the game, which cuts out at least an animal companion for melee. Ekolid is tough for its CR, although there are a few party compositions that can still beat it.

Edit: the party was DFA, Druid (MIA), Psion, Crusader 1/Bard 2, and Wizard. If the druid wasn't a no show they could have had the animal companion grapple it as soon as it entered melee and gone from there.

[Malimar]

Nah he wanted to know if everyone else thought it was as crazy unfair as he did. At least one person said that (maybe it's not clear), others said no or at least didn't say that, but that was what he was looking for.

Ah, I suppose that's fair, then.

Oh, I remember ekolids now. Yeah, the madness is a bit obnoxious, for RP reasons even if it doesn't have much mechanical effect. After an objection from my party about an ekolid encounter I threw at them, I told them that I'd count it as a curse for remove curse purposes; at an appropriate challenge level, asking a party to have access to heal, greater restoration, miracle, or wish is pretty pants.

[Beheld]

Despite the extremely minorness of the Form of Madness, I was going to have it be cured by a much of much lower level spells, including lesser restoration, because the Form of Madness in FC is more than a little silly. I also changed the grubs to burrow out an hour later, because why even have remove disease cure them if no one is ever going to get a chance to do it. Also it's tactics such as they are, were going to involve implanting everyone and then flying up onto a building, if it looked like the party couldn't do anything, so that the party could still explore around, find the treasure, limit the Ekolpocalypse and then deal with the problem some other way.

However, their Druid actually cut out his own AC for melee because he picked a Hawk.


Let's say the party has a ranged attacker... the creature has DR... and not ordinary DR, the rare type, which for some reasons, its usually hard to find at your local smithy.

One of my players said this two, and it seems really odd, why would you think that? Cold iron is more common than Silver, since it costs less, and both are so cheap as to be pretty common.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Okay so I thought that cold iron cost more. It maybe a little prohibitive to use often but having a quiver of 50 for emergencies does not seem too bad. Useless getting them enchanted though.

[JNAProductions]

OP here, obviously.

IC, we decided to flee because none of our attacks did any noticeable damage and it was wrecking our steez.

Although also, the game died, so... Yeah.