lowering doppelganger LA/racial levels?

[he-man diceroll]

my DM allows us to argue points(such as level adjustments and obscure rulings we don't have the books for) and I'm wanting to play a doppelganger, but don't want to start at a whopping level 8. are they're any good arguments i could make to show that they don't deserve an la of eight? other equal or stronger races with a LA of less or equal (respectively) to the doppelganger I can use as a comparison? does cutting off racial hit die inherently overpower a race(other than letting the player put class levels there) or alternately you could tell me that I'm dumb and its fine where it is. :D thanks a lot!

[OldTrees1]

What do Doppelgangers get and what can we compare it to?
1)Detect Thoughts: Detect Thoughts at will. Reasonable to show up at ECL 3
2)Change Shape: Comparable but not identical to Alter Self at will (including the ability to mimic the 3rd level spell Fly). Reasonable to show up at ECL 5-9
3)+2/+2/+2/+2/+4/+2 racial ability modifiers

So it gets 3 perks although since Change Shape is worth more than an average ability, let's call it 4 perks. Those abilities are reasonable to show up as early as 5th. So 4 perks with an ideal minimum ECL of 5. If races get 1 free perk (see human) and pay for the rest with 2RHD or +1LA per perk, then 4RHD and +1LA sounds reasonable.

Now personally I think that is still to high a price for doppelganger, but ECL pricing is both about cost/benefit ratios and about delaying inappropriate abilities until they are appropriate.

[Forrestfire]

I've found that rather than playing a true doppelganger, one of the better ways to go about it is to play a changeling who uses class levels to get the right abilities (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16224978&postcount=7) for emulating their parent race, then refluffing it.

[Crake]

I personally just drop ECL to the CR equivilent, removing LA first, then racial HD. So the way I run it, it would be 3RHD and 0 LA.

[he-man diceroll]

:D so apparently my post didnt go through last week. i convinced my dm that a level 4 could match doppelganger nine times out of ten, so he let me play it without the LA, taking only the racial levels, so i think i might post what ive got, see what you guys think.

[John Longarrow]

I'll second Forrestfire's post.
Even with a LA of 0, the 4 racial HD bite. You get full BAB, Strong REF and WILL, but crap for skill points / feats. Almost as good as taking levels in Warrior.
Plus side is you get a lot of stat bonuses, but none are concentrated like most other races.

Normally you should take at least a LA of 1 for the stat boosts. Detect Thought isn't all that useful, but the ability to change shape rocks. Down side your stuck with racial HD that don't let you take much advantage of them.

In all, you'd be better served playing a changeling rogue/beguiler/bard where you'd get some use out of the shape change. As is your stuck with an OK melee combatant who's best tricks are most useful on a skill monkey build.

NOTE: Exception is if you are planning to go rogue/swordsage, then all the stat boost do help.

[Fouredged Sword]

4 BAB? Shapechanger subtype with the ability to change shape at will?

You are proceeding directly to the warshaper PRC are you not?

[John Longarrow]

Changeling with 4 levels in full BAB classes would be able to do so to. Lower stats, more skill points (most likely), and more abilities in general.

Changeling Barbarian 1, Warblade 1, Crusader 1, Ranger 1 would totally rock as a warshaper.

[he-man diceroll]

so this is what i have so far:
starting level 8: r4, monk1, warshaper2, mindspy 1
(he had us roll 5 die, drop lowest 3, i rolled GOOD.)
abilities
str 22= 16+2R+4WS dex22= 18+2R+2L con22= 18+4WS
int 16= 14+2R wis18= 22+4R cha20= 18+2R
feats: (2flaws)
lvl1: ability focus(detect thoughts)
flaw1:martial study (clinging shadow)
flaw2=martial stance (island of blades)
lvl3=insightful (1/day detect magic, secret doors, read magic)
monk: improved unarmed attack
monk: stunning fist
lvl6: shadowblade

Edon Greagorleskiskovitch

a shadowy bloke who will do most anything for the right price, many hire him or near impossible robbery jobs, because he refers to himself as an "infiltration specialist" and he is good at what he does.
he has 5 rules: 1.never get caught. 2.never leave a friend behind, unless it would lead to breaking rule one. 3.never murder in cold-blood, or for impersonal reasons, unless it would lead to breaking rules one or two. 4.never leave a job unfinished, unless it would violate rules one or two. 5. always have a contingency plan for your back-up plan.

random side note: i plan on playing him with a heavy Russian accent, because its the only one i can do where i dont slowly slip into English/Scottish.
i can share other stuff, i just didnt know what would really be relevant to you guys, lol.

[MisterKaws]

Monk

Why monk? You have slam attacks, and no real need to get a level of monk. If you've thought taking a base class as a doppelganger is necessary, you're wrong. I'd suggest you take an extra level of warshaper over taking a monk level, unless it's really necessary for something.

[John Longarrow]

I'd suggest most anything besides Monk. Toss in swordsage so you can qualify for shadow blade, otherwise you don't have the shadowhand stance to use it.

For feats, if you want unarmed combat, I'd go Lvl 1 Improved Unarmed Strike, Lvl 3 Superior Unarmed Strike. Course this lets you do more damage unarmed than what you'll get from warshaper, but if your dipping that for Str/Con I can very much see it.

I'd suggest taking a level in sword sage instead of monk. Gives you the maneuvers your picking up with flaws plus more skill points.

You may also want to work a level of rogue/scout in for trap finding. Makes it much easier to pull off the robberies.

NOTE: If you want to compare/contrast, take a look at what you could build with changeling. You'd swap your 4 racial HD for much better class levels.

[Fouredged Sword]

If you want to do the whole unarmed strike thing, consider taking beast strike as your 6th level feat. Adding your slam damage to your unarmed strikes will be a large bonus.

Rather than take monk and burn 2 feats for shadowblade prereqs, consider instead going Swordsage 1. You can pick up improved unarmed strike and superior unarmed strike easily enough as feats. You can then use your wis to AC in light armor.

You also get a handful of other strikes, so win/win.

RHD 4 / Warshaper 2 / Swordsage 1 (4th initiator level) / Mindspy 1

My best recommendation is to use a monk's belt though. Wis to AC and unarmed strikes don't require a class level to get and you can add in an extra level of something more useful.

[he-man diceroll]

the level of monk was mostly for the ac bonus, without dumping 13k on the belt. IUA, full str to unarmed dmg, flurry of blows and stunning fist were a nice cherry on top. will superior unarmed attack stack with the belt?

[John Longarrow]

It doesn't stack with the monks belt. Instead it gives you damage based on your character level. Superior unarmed strike is better than both the monks belt and the damage boost you will get from higher levels of war shaper. At 8th level you'll do a D8 damage. That increases to d10 at 12th, then 2d6 at 16th. That is on ALL of your unarmed attacks.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yeah, I would lay it out from worst to best (monk 1 dip) -> Monk's belt - > Swordsage 1 with superior unarmed strike.

Monk's belt is great because it basically cost only gold, and gold is much less valuable than class levels.

IF you DO decide to take monk, I would consider the focused attack ACF to replace flurry if misses with a single double damage attack as a full round action. It pairs well with beast strike and high strength to really hit a single target hard. Snap kick will add a second attack to it, also dealing double damage.

[he-man diceroll]

does focused attack?(i found it as decisive attack in the phb II) double both rolled and extra damage?

oh, and my dm has tentatively oked shifting into a thri-keen (:D!) so if focused/ decisive attack isnt as magically awesome as i think, im thinking of dropping monk and the maneuvers and just going kensai for bonus atk/dmg (prob to claws, as i could get four of those) then putting the feats somewhere else (everyone's feelings on VoP?)

and if i stick with monk for the ACF, at level 8 my double damage attack would have a total attack bonus of 9 (5bab+6str-2pen)is that too low/about right? any good ways of getting it higher?

[Fouredged Sword]

does focused attack?(i found it as decisive attack in the phb II) double both rolled and extra damage?

oh, and my dm has tentatively oked shifting into a thri-keen (:D!) so if focused/ decisive attack isnt as magically awesome as i think, im thinking of dropping monk and the maneuvers and just going kensai for bonus atk/dmg (prob to claws, as i could get four of those) then putting the feats somewhere else (everyone's feelings on VoP?)

and if i stick with monk for the ACF, at level 8 my double damage attack would have a total attack bonus of 9 (5bab+6str-2pen)is that too low/about right? any good ways of getting it higher?

I always seem to get that name wrong. It doubles damage in the same way a crit does. It doubles the weapon and static bonus damage, but not variable bonus damage. It works REALLY well with a quarterstaff and power attack (-2 to attack to double the already doubled power attack bonus. Love the effective 3x str bonus)

AC levels tend to be around level+13 or so. High AC is considered around level+23. At level 8 an attack bonus of 9 hits an AC of 21 a little less than half the time. Remember though, you can boost that pretty easy. +2 for enchantment (greater magic weapon from a friendly wizard). Try to get flanking as well (+2). Get a belt of + strength (+2 for a +4 belt)

So yes, a +9 to hit at level 8 is a little low. Considering you are not including all the lower cost bonuses you can rack up, it's not bad for an unboosted starting point though.