Tempest vs Light domain

[Lendário]

Straightfoward question: Which is better in the long run?

Got invited to play in a new table, and they need a Cleric.
And i'm already playing Life Cleric in two other tables so, to change things up and not go insane, i decided to venture in a domain i don't known yet.

I'm going Variant Human.
Picking either Resilient (CON) or War Caster as the starting feat.

Heavily Armored Thor lookalike or Radiant Beacon of burning faith freak.

[djreynolds]

Straightfoward question: Which is better in the long run?

Got invited to play in a new table, and they need a Cleric.
And i'm already playing Life Cleric in two other tables so, to change things up and not go insane, i decided to venture in a domain i don't known yet.

I'm going Variant Human.
Picking either Resilient (CON) or War Caster as the starting feat.

Heavily Armored Thor lookalike or Radiant Beacon of burning faith freak.

Both are cool, we have a light cleric but without sculpt spell he can't drop fireballs in melee. But the light stuff extras is awesome versus shadows and undead.

Tempest though can be in melee with heavy armor, any weapon, and if he gets hit it hurts. Both benefit from elemental adept.

But that arcane cleric sounds intriguing though.

But what do you want? A life cleric can stay and exchange blows in melee, and you've done that. What does this party need?

[Lendário]

Both are cool, we have a light cleric but without sculpt spell he can't drop fireballs in melee. But the light stuff extras is awesome versus shadows and undead.

Tempest though can be in melee with heavy armor, any weapon, and if he gets hit it hurts. Both benefit from elemental adept.

But that arcane cleric sounds intriguing though.

But what do you want? A life cleric can stay and exchange blows in melee, and you've done that. What does this party need?

So far the party members are myself as Cleric, a Paladin, a Bard and two people still undecided.

[The1exile]

There's a tempest cleric in my group who did a really good job of starting out as a front liner and shifting towards a more controlly role after level 5. We were running Warlock, Barbarian Cleric to start and even after getting a paladin in our group our fights tend to involve a lot of pushing and breaking things (with repelling blast, shove attacks, Thunderwave and shatter).

If you have a hankering to play sorcerer cleric and you have a strong front line (one of your other players picks barbarian or fighter for example) Light cleric is fine also, though.

[djreynolds]

I gotta be honest, a paladin really changes a party. They help out in so many ways. The can tank and strike. Casting bless and the bard using inspiration together, the paladin becomes scary.

The thing for me, is the few feats of the cleric and his need for wis and con, I usually up strength at least for heavy armor. At least this way you can get into melee and help soak up hits.

I'm not sure how exactly magic initiate works, but AFB, a 1st level spell doesn't level. Now can you use your spell slot for your 1st level from another class once a day or with all your 1st level spell slots? Because grabbing the shield spell becomes a huge boon if you can use it more than once a day. No, I think is the ruling?

And so the question is are casting cantrips in melee, or using a weapon with possibly a mediocre str or dex, or using shillelagh on a staff.

[MrStabby]

Tempest.

Tempest is much more fun I think. Some of it comes down to level and others in party though - fireball rocks if no one else has it and if you are level 5, 6 or 7 and against hordes of enemies, although call lightening can often do the same.

For me it comes down to how you spend your turn. For at will abilities an augmented melee attack will do more damage than a buffed sacred flame and the ability to gain that bonus damage through reaction attacks or through feats and bonus action attacks is pretty sweet. The heavy armour proficiency lets you tank in the front lines and use fewer spells on defence (and put fewer ASIs into dex).

For long days and at higher levels I would argue that tempest spells also hold up better. Low level spells don't do a lot of damage compared to the HP of high level enemies but the tempest cleric has access to more battlefield control and debuff spells like fog cloud and sleet storm. This means you can be more relevant using lower level spell slots.

Light domain kind of makes you a blaster like an evocation wizard but with benefits you maybe don't need (if you want the extra HP or medium armour proficiency you can get these from race/feats) and without some of the toys (arcane recovery, not burning your allies and a really broad spellbook).

[AmbientRaven]

I've played a tempest cleric and had a BLAST!

how about Nature, Shillelagh makes you Wis/Con dependant only?

[Specter]

First of all, as pointed out by many, the group saying they 'need a Cleric' is a completely vague statement. Do they need a healer? Many classes can do that. Do they need a divine caster? Etc.

But assuming you want to play the cleric, I'd go Tempest. There's a Tempest Cleric in my table and the guy can be very annoying with his Wrath of the Storm. In my opinion it's also more flavorful.

[RulesJD]

If you can swing the numbers, Wild Magic Sorc (1)/Tempest Cleric (everything else) is ridiculously fun.

First level in Sorc = Proficiency in con saves (means you get to take a different feat, I recommend Shield Master).

Sorc also grants you Booming Blade/Greenflame Blade, the absolute two biggest DPR increases for a Cleric who only gets one attack anyways. It also grants you Shield to cast with your later Cleric slots to make your tankiness insanely good (Shield Master = shoring up your Dex save, naturally high Wis save, proficiency in Con saves, stupidly high A/C with Shield on tap).

Wild Magic sorc also means you can have a TON of fun with your casting. Wild Magic surges add so much fun to the game and are generally positive. Plus, Tides of Chaos means you can grant yourself advantage on Concentration saves pretty much whenever you want, mimicking part of the War Caster feat.

After that, just start blasting away. A Shatter spell in a 3rd level slot + Destructive Wrath = better damage than a fireball. When you hit level 7 overall, you can max damage twice per SHORT REST, which is insane. If you have 3 rounds in combat to get Spirit Guardians + Spiritual Weapon + Maximized Shatter up, you can just be mowing through entire encounters on your own.

[Finieous]

I've played my tempest cleric from 1st to 15th level now, over a bit more than a year. I'd recommend it to anyone. Last week I got to clear the deck of a pirate ship swarming with mid-level NPCs and monsters with two consecutive (half) maximized destructive waves for 49 damage each in a 30 foot radius. It's very strong and very fun. My only complaint about the class is the lack of domain flavor above 9th level, but my DM is letting me swap out some higher-level cleric spells for appropriate druid ones (tsunami, etc.).

[gfishfunk]

So far the party members are myself as Cleric, a Paladin, a Bard and two people still undecided.

I would go towards Tempest, War, or Trickery (if you are up for a challenge).

1. The do not need a healing-specific character. Both the Pally and the Bard can assist with healing (as can you) without veering away from what they want to be doing.
2. Divine is fun for a skill monkey (this is what I am personally drawn towards), but you already have that with a Bard. Might as well bring the pain as Tempest or War.
3. Trickery is good for a really different playing experience. If you want the most different play experience, go Trickery. Its not a high optimization build, but it has the potential to be fun, combining Illusion Wizard shenanigans with Rogue flair.

[KorvinStarmast]

I would go towards Tempest, War, or Trickery (if you are up for a challenge). Tempest is nice. One of the more interesting domain spells, in terms of control, is fog cloud which can sometimes shape the battlefield very nicely.

My DM allowed me to replace one cantrip with Thunderclap when it came out with the elemental evil material ... but as that's table specific I'd suggest you look into how you might use it before asking the same. It's a nice to have not have to have thing.

[rhouck]

Absolutely agree with the Tempest Cleric love. I'ved played as Life, Light, and Tempest and Tempest is hands-down the most fun. You can excel both on the front-line and from the back, add some solid AoE options, and Destructive Wrath remains excellent throughout the game. The only real downside is the lack of scaling of Wrath of the Storm as you level.

Light is still a great domain and mechanically powerful, and if the other undecided party members don't go Wizard/Sorcerer then the added AoE can be a boon. But I just enjoyed the flavor and mechanics of Tempest more.

[MrStabby]

Yeah, I also get a little disappointed with the lack of flavour of domain spells at higher level.

Tsunami/Storm of vengeance great for tempest
Sunburst/Sunbeam for light and so on...

I do feel that there should be some bonus to light clerics casting sunbeam (thematically, power wise it might have to be modest to be fair).

[djreynolds]

Straightfoward question: Which is better in the long run?

Got invited to play in a new table, and they need a Cleric.
And i'm already playing Life Cleric in two other tables so, to change things up and not go insane, i decided to venture in a domain i don't known yet.

I'm going Variant Human.
Picking either Resilient (CON) or War Caster as the starting feat.

Heavily Armored Thor lookalike or Radiant Beacon of burning faith freak.

Well you have a lot of stuff to sort through. I haven't played a tempest cleric yet. But aside from healing, you're radiant damage resources will be huge, and that's what a cleric brings. My wizard is useless in terms of damage versus demons and such, and our cleric kicks butt.

Tempest sounds fun, so post your build and see how it goes and enjoy. I would recommend war caster over resilient con for now, as your cantrip may have more oomph at earlier levels in melee. It gives you AoO with a spell in melee, no hog wash about a free hands and stuff, and advantage. Then after maxing wisdom grab resilient con. And grab a warhammer, not optimal over shillelagh, but thematically appropriate.

Have fun, and post.

[Lendário]

Well you have a lot of stuff to sort through. I haven't played a tempest cleric yet. But aside from healing, you're radiant damage resources will be huge, and that's what a cleric brings. My wizard is useless in terms of damage versus demons and such, and our cleric kicks butt.

Tempest sounds fun, so post your build and see how it goes and enjoy. I would recommend war caster over resilient con for now, as your cantrip may have more oomph at earlier levels in melee. It gives you AoO with a spell in melee, no hog wash about a free hands and stuff, and advantage. Then after maxing wisdom grab resilient con. And grab a warhammer, not optimal over shillelagh, but thematically appropriate.

Have fun, and post.


Thanks everyone for the replies.
I already was more inclined to go Tempest and this sealed the deal.

Yeah, Resilient vs War Caster first is a big thing for me, playing 3 different Clerics at 3 different tables.
My planned build for this one is:

Variant Human, Tempest Cleric.
Sailor Background.
Proficient Skills: Athletics, Insight, Medicine, Perception and Survival.

STR: 16 (+1)
DEX:10
CON:14 (13 +1 if Resilient)
INT:8 (10 if Resilient)
WIS:16 (+1)
CHA:8

Level bumps: +2 WIS, 2 WIS, +2 STR or a Feat, +2 STR and +2 STR or CON.
And yep Warhammer, i don't think Shillelagh is worth the feat.

Edit: Added level bumps.

[Lendário]

Yeah, I also get a little disappointed with the lack of flavour of domain spells at higher level.

Tsunami/Storm of vengeance great for tempest
Sunburst/Sunbeam for light and so on...

I do feel that there should be some bonus to light clerics casting sunbeam (thematically, power wise it might have to be modest to be fair).

Yep, it's weird.
Fog Cloud and Insect Plague are strange choices.

[djreynolds]

Thanks everyone for the replies.
I already was more inclined to go Tempest and this sealed the deal.

Yeah, Resilient vs War Caster first is a big thing for me, playing 3 different Clerics at 3 different tables.
My planned build for this one is:

Variant Human, Tempest Cleric.
Sailor Background.
Proficient Skills: Athletics, Insight, Medicine, Perception and Survival.

STR: 16 (+1)
DEX:10
CON:14 (13 +1 if Resilient)
INT:8 (10 if Resilient)
WIS:16 (+1)
CHA:8

And yep Warhammer, i don't think Shillelagh is worth the feat.

Love it, looks cool. Wisdom skills, of course. And lets be honest, Shillelagh is weird on a quarterstaff, now great club would be cool. And shield master if you can afford, is a good way to help out with dex saves

[Lendário]

Love it, looks cool. Wisdom skills, of course. And lets be honest, Shillelagh is weird on a quarterstaff, now great club would be cool. And shield master if you can afford, is a good way to help out with dex saves

I known Shillelagh is good but, i think using a feat to improve meele in a clearly spell focused Domain is not worth it.
And besides, i need STR anyway for the armor.
Shield Master is good, but i considered going Elemental Adept.

[djreynolds]

I known Shillelagh is good but, i think using a feat to improve meele in a clearly spell focused Domain is not worth it.
And besides, i need STR anyway for the armor.
Shield Master is good, but i considered going Elemental Adept.

Well I'm excited, sounds cool and elemental adept does feels right. Clerics are very good classes, radiant damage is so tough to come by and so needed.

[Finieous]

Variant Human, Tempest Cleric.
Sailor Background.
Proficient Skills: Athletics, Insight, Medicine, Perception and Survival.

STR: 16 (+1)
DEX:10
CON:14 (13 +1 if Resilient)
INT:8 (10 if Resilient)
WIS:16 (+1)
CHA:8

Level bumps: +2 WIS, 2 WIS, +2 STR or a Feat, +2 STR and +2 STR or CON.
And yep Warhammer, i don't think Shillelagh is worth the feat.


Looks good. I really doubt by the time you get to 12th level you'll want to bump Strength. You'd be +8 to hit for 2d8+4, or you could just do sacred flame at DC 18 for 3d8 when you don't have anything better to do. In fights that matter, you'll typically be using your actions to cast spells. On the other hand, with Con 14 and save proficiency, your Con save is still only +6. Concentration spells are so important to you, I'd either take Warcaster or bump Con (probably the latter). But you can decide for yourself when you get there.

[RulesJD]

If you want to keep your damage roughly inline with other melee classes, you have to find a way to get Booming Blade + Greenflame Blade. You only ever get 1 attack as a Cleric, so you might as well use the extra damage from those two spells.

[Finieous]

If you want to keep your damage roughly inline with other melee classes, you have to find a way to get Booming Blade + Greenflame Blade. You only ever get 1 attack as a Cleric, so you might as well use the extra damage from those two spells.

Still won't be in line with melee classes, even "roughly." He takes Magical Initiate at 12, now he's +7 to hit (+2 behind martials) for 4d8+3 damage. He's probably about 55% to hit for 21 average damage, or ~12 DPR. Monks and rogues more than double him up, let alone fighters, barbarians, rangers and paladins.

[DireSickFish]

Tempest cleric looks fun and I really want to play one in an upcoming game. I do have experience playing a light cleric at low levels, we ended the game at level 6.

I really liked there channel divinity class feature. It may not scale the greatest but it's going to do more damage than a cantrip to a large area and you don't have to worry about friendly fire. It really helped against hoards of mooks. There spell list is also very good, and not just the blasty stuff. Faerie Fire is an awesome debuff to open a fight with the Paladin will especially like advantage as they get the most out of crits.

I find the radiant damage cantrip to be sufficient in most fights for at will damage. Almost nothing has resistance to radiant damage. Scorching ray scales well enough that you can upcast it for single target damage without feeling like you've wasted a slot.

[Tanarii]

So far the party members are myself as Cleric, a Paladin, a Bard and two people still undecided.If there's ever a party that doesn't need a Cleric, it's one that already has a Paladin and a Bard in it. What that party "needs" is strong ranged magical DPS. so Warlock/Sorcerer/Wizard. Need in quotes because obviously its not really needed, just one of several missing party roles. Another is mobile skirmisher, ie Ranger/Rogue/Monk. But Bard already covers 'Healer/Buffer/Debuffer' role with a skills backup, and Paladin is melee with a backup in healing/buffing. So the normal "need" a Cleric role is already well covered.

[RulesJD]

Still won't be in line with melee classes, even "roughly." He takes Magical Initiate at 12, now he's +7 to hit (+2 behind martials) for 4d8+3 damage. He's probably about 55% to hit for 21 average damage, or ~12 DPR. Monks and rogues more than double him up, let alone fighters, barbarians, rangers and paladins.

That completely depends on the situation (GF hitting a second target ups it to 6d8+3, same for BB second tick to 7d8+3). The point is that's it's a hell of a lot better than just doing 2d8+3 on cantrips that you can use infinitely. Combine that with Spirit Guardians + Spiritual Weapon, and now you're DPR is getting roughly equal.

And, if you go the Magic Initiate route, grab it from the Wizard spell list to gain access to Find Familiar. Use familiar to grant advantage on all of your GF/BB to again up your DPR.

[Finieous]

That completely depends on the situation (GF hitting a second target ups it to 6d8+3, same for BB second tick to 7d8+3).


I agree GFB is situational. Specifically, it's fine for the one round where two guys are standing next to each other, but not so good when one of them moves five feet away because he doesn't like getting burned. On BB, the cleric has no real way to trigger the move damage, unless he moves out of combat and takes an opportunity attack. In other words, neither cantrip will give you the consistent melee DPR that would allow you to "roughly equal" the melee classes.



The point is that's it's a hell of a lot better than just doing 2d8+3 on cantrips that you can use infinitely. Combine that with Spirit Guardians + Spiritual Weapon, and now you're DPR is getting roughly equal.


Well, I don't agree that GFB and BB are "a hell of a lot better" than anything. But I do agree that spirit guardians and spiritual weapon are excellent spells. A 12th level cleric should focus on casting these and other excellent spells, rather than wasting character build resources and actions in a futile effort to "keep up" with melee classes in melee damage output. It sounds like that's the direction the OP is taking anyway (wisely, IMO), so there probably isn't much point in arguing it further.

[downlobot]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned that I really have come to enjoy is warding flare (and improved). It's limited use, certainly, but it offers some nice extra tanky-ness to the light domain (or a quick bit of protection for a friend). I recently had a run in with some cambions, had prot from good and evil up on myself, and used flare to give the pally some help - they were unhappy. it's just a fun thing to throw out there.

I'm also looking forward to adding wis to sacred flame (though I do sincerely wish there were more cleric attack cantrips to pick from - or one more come to think of it).

[Lendário]

If there's ever a party that doesn't need a Cleric, it's one that already has a Paladin and a Bard in it. What that party "needs" is strong ranged magical DPS. so Warlock/Sorcerer/Wizard. Need in quotes because obviously its not really needed, just one of several missing party roles. Another is mobile skirmisher, ie Ranger/Rogue/Monk. But Bard already covers 'Healer/Buffer/Debuffer' role with a skills backup, and Paladin is melee with a backup in healing/buffing. So the normal "need" a Cleric role is already well covered.

They need a Cleric for setting purposes. Long history.
Plus, both the Paladin and Bard are new players.

[The_Pyromancer]

They need a Cleric for setting purposes. Long history.
Plus, both the Paladin and Bard are new players.

In that case, I would suggest a Light Cleric. Tempest is better at melee, but with a Paladin, that's not a priority. However, your party sounds like it could use some ranged damage, and a Light CLeric (with Fireball) is better at that. Additionally, the AoE from the Light Cleric's spells/channel divinity helps cover your bases when the Paladin (notoriously weak against hordes) comes up against that army of skeletons or zombies.

[RulesJD]

If you want AoE support Tempest is still likely to be your best bet.

Why? Channel Divinity option. At level 6 you can do it twice per short rest, which is basically at least once, maybe twice per encounter. Shatter in a level 3 slot at max deals 32, more than the average Fireball. It's also thunder so significantly less likely to get resisted. And it scales FANTASTICALLY when you realize each spell slot is 8 more damage, not a d8. Combine that with the 10 minute duration AoE that is Spirit Guardians and you can literally laugh at trashmobs.