When is Martial Adept worth it?

[Specter]

I've been looking at the Martial Adept feat, and came to the conclusion that it's so bad it hurts. One Superiority Dice which is a d6? Usable once per rest?

The only time when I can see this as useful is for a Battle Master/Spell-less Ranger who needs more maneuvers, but even then it could be lackluster. What do you think?

[MightyDog16]

I think you are right. Seems like there are many better feat choices, unless you just REALLY likes using maneuvers.

[Zman]

I've been looking at the Martial Adept feat, and came to the conclusion that it's so bad it hurts. One Superiority Dice which is a d6? Usable once per rest?

The only time when I can see this as useful is for a Battle Master/Spell-less Ranger who needs more maneuvers, but even then it could be lackluster. What do you think?

How about a Champion? Pick Riposte or Trip or maybe Feignting Attack. I mean knocking the target prone for Advantage for Feinting for Advantage on an Action Surge Round could be devastating. So much more damage.

Barbarian could get mileage out of Riposte, on the rare chance they miss you, hammer them again.

Any GWM gets use out of Precision Attack, and average +3.5 almost negates your GWM penalty, though I'd probably still go with Feinting attack instead.


Also, for a Battlemaster the die gets larger as you level I believe. And Once Per short rest is 2-3 times a day. IMO it should have been two superiority dice.

[NiklasWB]

[...] Also, for a Battlemaster the die gets larger as you level I believe. And Once Per short rest is 2-3 times a day. IMO it should have been two superiority dice.

This.

Even if it is only 1 extra superiority die, you are effectively giving a Battlemaster an extra chance per short rest to use a large pool of Dice (7 at level 15 I think) and get to pick like 75% of all the available Maneuvers. Since Battlemaster is all about using Maneuvers and have a lot of chances to take feats, I'd say it can definitely be worth it.

[MaxWilson]

I've been looking at the Martial Adept feat, and came to the conclusion that it's so bad it hurts. One Superiority Dice which is a d6? Usable once per rest?

The only time when I can see this as useful is for a Battle Master/Spell-less Ranger who needs more maneuvers, but even then it could be lackluster. What do you think?

The single best thing about battlemaster maneuvers is that they don't cost action economy, so if you were trying to build a nova build, the superiority die might be worth it if you could find a way to exploit it. Menacing Attack + Wrathful Smite is two frightening attempts in a single blow, which just might give your party an extra round of attacks against a tough enemy. Similarly, Trip Attack could knock an enemy prone, giving you advantage on all your attacks that round. (You can also use Trip Attack on an opportunity attack to act as a lightweight Sentinel, preventing someone from attacking the squishies 30' away, because they have to spend half their movement getting back up.)

Another possibility is Precise Strike, which can turn one missed attack per short rest into a hit, so call it +20 damage once per short rest. It's not great, as a feat, but it's not nothing either.

[gfishfunk]

I can only think of using it for a fighter build, since they have so many ASIs, it can be relatively easy to pick up extra feats that are less than optimal. All fighter builds can use it, and Battlemasters can use it to expand it by a single die.

[ZenBear]

Rogues can get more Sneak Attack with Riposte.

[D.U.P.A.]

The thing is that you must choose situational maneuvers which are not that much die dependant and make a bit of impact (if non fighter). Some example would include Precision attack (when you HAVE to land that attack, being smite, sneak attack or marked target), Parry (to save you from a fatal blow, provided you have enough Dex), Commander's strike (if you are in some way incapacitated and unable to attack). But yea, it is not an optimal feat, is one of those feats which should grant you +1 stat bonus or more maneuver dice.

[BootStrapTommy]

When you rolled really good stats, taking pressure off the need for ASI, and are playing an indecisive Battlemaster...

[Dimers]

Slightly more of an alpha strike for an Assassin? ...

[Vogonjeltz]

I've been looking at the Martial Adept feat, and came to the conclusion that it's so bad it hurts. One Superiority Dice which is a d6? Usable once per rest?

The only time when I can see this as useful is for a Battle Master/Spell-less Ranger who needs more maneuvers, but even then it could be lackluster. What do you think?

As you say, for a Battlemaster the +2 maneuvers known are metaphorically worth their weight in gold, and the superiority die scales up, so it starts at d8 and reaches d12.

Maneuvers are favorably comparable with spells in some cases. For example, if you compare Rally to False Life for a Sorcerer, Rally is better and as you rightly noted, repeatable more often thanks to refreshing off a short rest.

[jimmacjr]

Was reading this. My plan is a Half Orc Champion fighter. I'd eventually crit on 18, and the beauty of maneuvers is that you can decide to use them AFTER you hit (Trip attack, for example).

My greataxe would hit for 3d12+15 (5 str+ GWM) + 2d6. Average damage on a crit would be 41, which would raise my max avg DPR to 189. While it's unlikely, trip attack can knock the enemy prone, giving you advantage on follow up attacks. Honestly you could realistically crit on 2-3 of the 5 attacks.

Basically, maneuvers can give you an extra average damage of 14 damage on a single turn with a multi attack character. Not bad, considering only two feats provide better than this....and that's with a -5 hit penalty.

Correct me if I'm wrong. I wrote that quickly, but I think it's right.

[Saggo]

I can only think of using it for a fighter build, since they have so many ASIs, it can be relatively easy to pick up extra feats that are less than optimal. All fighter builds can use it, and Battlemasters can use it to expand it by a single die.

If you roll for stats, it's not uncommon to see 18s at the start. Less ASIs means any class could possibly pick secondary feats, like Martial Adept for Trip and Precision.

Trip and Precision on any Archer build is pretty top notch. Trip will let you knock down flying targets for everyone and Precision gels well with Sharpshooter.

[mephnick]

As you say, for a Battlemaster the +2 maneuvers known are metaphorically worth their weight in gold

Are they though? If you're a Battlemaster you've probably already picked the best ones before you take the feat.

It just exacerbates the only problem I have with the sub-class, that you have nothing to look forward to outside some maneuvers you didn't like enough to take the first time.

[Osrogue]

It's good for unearthed arcana fighter variants. They get full superiority dice progression without access to the Battlemaster list. They get the most out of the feat.

[Vogonjeltz]

Are they though? If you're a Battlemaster you've probably already picked the best ones before you take the feat.

It just exacerbates the only problem I have with the sub-class, that you have nothing to look forward to outside some maneuvers you didn't like enough to take the first time.

Well, there are 16 maneuvers, a battlemaster learns 11. The "best ones" conceit requires there to be 5+ "bad" maneuvers.

For my money I take martial adept either at 1st or 4th level, when the Fighter has 0 or 3 maneuvers. And there are certainly plenty more than 3 maneuvers that I'd say are worth taking.

[Specter]

Well, there are 16 maneuvers, a battlemaster learns 11. The "best ones" conceit requires there to be 5+ "bad" maneuvers.

For my money I take martial adept either at 1st or 4th level, when the Fighter has 0 or 3 maneuvers. And there are certainly plenty more than 3 maneuvers that I'd say are worth taking.

I'm AFB, but if I recall correctly it's 6 maneuvers learned. Anyway.

The first three maneuvers a BM gets already give him a solid reaction use (Parry, Riposte), a way to have more consistent damage in Precision Strike and some other tactical stunt (Trip, Disarming, etc.). The other maneuvers give you some extra versatility, but are not something you desperstely need. Especially not if it involves using a feat for them.

And yes, it's a great feat for Monster Hunter/Scouts/Cavaliers.

[bid]

I'm AFB, but if I recall correctly it's 6 maneuvers learned. Anyway.
3-2-2-2 makes 9.

[Noldo]

Could a supporting character with weak individual attack get sufficient mileage out of Commander's strike, trading one action for a rogue's sneak attack or a paladin's strike could seem much more worthwhile trade for a bard or a cleric (especially if they can still use bonus action to participate themselves through Spirit Guardian, Flaming Sphere or other similar spell)?

[djreynolds]

I've been looking at the Martial Adept feat, and came to the conclusion that it's so bad it hurts. One Superiority Dice which is a d6? Usable once per rest?

The only time when I can see this as useful is for a Battle Master/Spell-less Ranger who needs more maneuvers, but even then it could be lackluster. What do you think?

Precision is very good for any rogue based sniper who must hit. If say you are an assassin archetype, setting up a surprise attack. This could help ensure your hard work pays off with a nasty auto crit. Probably better just to grab 3 levels of battlemaster/scout/etc.. but some rogues do not wish to lose out on SA die. And riposte is nice for rogues as well.

[Specter]

3-2-2-2 makes 9.

Right.


Could a supporting character with weak individual attack get sufficient mileage out of Commander's strike, trading one action for a rogue's sneak attack or a paladin's strike could seem much more worthwhile trade for a bard or a cleric (especially if they can still use bonus action to participate themselves through Spirit Guardian, Flaming Sphere or other similar spell)?

It's good, yes, but 1/rest? I wouldn't.


Precision is very good for any rogue based sniper who must hit. If say you are an assassin archetype, setting up a surprise attack. This could help ensure your hard work pays off with a nasty auto crit. Probably better just to grab 3 levels of battlemaster/scout/etc.. but some rogues do not wish to lose out on SA die. And riposte is nice for rogues as well.

Assassins benefit from 3 levels in Fighter: archery/twf, action surge and maneuvers are all one needs to be death incarnate in a surprise round.