Question - How to Give Commands to Burrowing Minions?

[unseenmage]

I have a PF alchemist (lvl 13-15) who plays like a artificer in a real life game and he's contemplating building some burrowing animated objects (whole buildings really).

It occurs to me I have no clue how he's supposed to give these things orders when they're burrowing? Possibly a standing order for them to 'breach' or come to the surface every now and then to get commands?

How has the Playground solved this issue in games of their own?

[MisterKaws]

Make an item with some sort of telepathy, probably with a 30% discount for only affecting constructs of that specific type.

[Baroknik]

Does telepathy not need line of effect?

[Sgt. Suitable]

Maybe have him rhythmically stomp on the ground?

Edit: With a special staff or something perhaps..

[Necroticplague]

Any reason you can't just talk to them? Sound waves travel faster in a denser medium, so their burrowing should actually make you more audible.

[icefractal]

Telepathy doesn't need LoE, AFAIK, so that would be one option.
I believe there's also an item from one of the Eberron books which is basically a telephone/walkie-talkie - it lets you communicate with the other matching one from any distance (on the same plane).

If you can give the constructs Tremorsense (useful for burrowing things anyway), then you could probably communicate by stomping in morse code.
Edit: Ninja'd, and by someone with the same icon too! :smalltongue:

[Flickerdart]

Another option would be getting a burrow speed yourself, or something with a burrow speed and the ability to relay your orders (so intelligence or mimicry, and speech). Give them orders to stay in a specific place relative to you, and then you know where to find them to give new orders.

[Curmudgeon]

Telepathy doesn't need LoE, AFAIK, so that would be one option.
Telepathy's behavior is completely up to the individual DM. Is the range a concatenation of LoE segments? Is it blocked by a thin sheet of lead? The rules don't provide answers.

[Necroticplague]

Telepathy's behavior is completely up to the individual DM. Is the range a concatenation of LoE segments? Is it blocked by a thin sheet of lead? The rules don't provide answers.

Well, by the normal rules of dnd, unless something says it does need/do something, it doesn't. The only reference I can find to line of effect is talking about how spells need it. And telepathy itself does not say that it needs it. Thus, it does not.

Similar for lead sheets. Telepathy doesn't say its blocked by hem, so they aren't. Not sure how a DM is needed for answers.

[Curmudgeon]

Similar for lead sheets. Telepathy doesn't say its blocked by hem, so they aren't.

The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.
I think many DMs would disagree with your assessment. Telepathy is missing operational details. That does not mean it should be free of limits; instead, it means it's up to each DM to fill in the blanks.

[Necroticplague]

I think many DMs would disagree with your assessment. Telepathy is missing operational details. That does not mean it should be free of limits; instead, it means it's up to each DM to fill in the blanks.

I fail to see how Detect Thoughts has anything to do with it. It does something completely different and is a different type of ability.
If an ability doesn't say it has a limit, it lacks one. We don't assume CL caps for spells that don't say they have one, just because other spells do. Telepathy simply says it lets you communicate within a range. That's it. There's nothing complex about it.

[Curmudgeon]

Telepathy simply says it lets you communicate within a range. That's it. There's nothing complex about it.
The complexity comes because the rules don't define how "range" works except for magical effects. Spells require line of effect unless stated otherwise. On what basis do you state that LoE isn't also required for telepathy?

[Necroticplague]

The complexity comes because the rules don't define how "range" works except for magical effects. Spells require line of effect unless stated otherwise. On what basis do you state that LoE isn't also required for telepathy?

That's not how logic works.Burden of proof lies with those making a positive claim. What evidence do you have that rules for spells (including Line of Effect) apply to Telepathy (which isn't a spell)?

Huh? How is range a spells-only detail? Telepathy's entry covers that on its own.

A creature with this ability can communicate telepathically with any other creature within a certain range (specified in the creature’s entry, usually 100 feet) that has a language. It is possible to address multiple creatures at once telepathically, although maintaining a telepathic conversation with more than one creature at a time is just as difficult as simultaneously speaking and listening to multiple people at the same time. If they're within a range, and have a language, you can talk to them. Specific versions of telepathy often make this even clearer.

A mindbender unlocks one of the most basic elements of his mental craft at 1st level, gaining the ability to communicate telepathically with any creature within 100 feet that has a language.

[Curmudgeon]

If they're within a range, and have a language, you can talk to them.
Again, you've got to define "range" for something that isn't a spell. Telepathy specifies the amount of "range", but never defines "range". Is it Line of Effect range? Is it a concatenation of LoE segments? Is it something else?

You're assuming the lack of a definition means you can use your own definition, which is nonsense. In D&D, that's when your DM decides things.

[icefractal]

I don't think the "sheet of lead" thing would be anything but a house rule. It has some flavor precedent, but nothing in the rules even suggests it.

Whether the range goes through solid objects or not is legitimately vague though. "Ignores intervening objects" is what I've seen used at tables, but it's possible to interpret it as requiring LoE, or as not requiring straight LoE but needing an open path.

[Ashtagon]

Any reason you can't just talk to them? Sound waves travel faster in a denser medium, so their burrowing should actually make you more audible.

If we're playing physics, we should also note that the surface of solid objects acts very much like a mirror to sound waves. The point where solid rock ends and the PC's "pet" begins counts. it is also very likely that near this surface there is a considerable amount of rubble and sand created by the pet's burrowing activities, which makes a rather effective sound dampener for most sound sources smaller than breaking through solid rock.

[daremetoidareyo]

I got a 3.5 answer. This is going to...take a minute.

Drow of the Underdark has this little gem:

"Given the unique form of Drow Sign Language, some dark elves learn to incorporate elements of the complex language into normal body movements.
Delivering a Secret Message: You can substitute Dexterity for Charisma when making Bluff checks to deliver a secret message, if you and the recipient are both fluent in Drow Sign Language."

So, all you have to do is be fluent with your minions in a morse code like language. Put 5 skill ranks in perform (dance:tap) for a +2 synergy bonus to the dexterity based bluff check to deliver a secret message to your minions, who must also be taught to understand the morse code language. If you only ever communicate in said language, it probably wouldn't be a big deal.

[Necroticplague]

Again, you've got to define "range" for something that isn't a spell. Telepathy specifies the amount of "range", but never defines "range". Is it Line of Effect range? Is it a concatenation of LoE segments? Is it something else?

You're assuming the lack of a definition means you can use your own definition, which is nonsense. In D&D, that's when your DM decides things.

Telepathy doesn't have any type of range. While the general version of the ability mentions a range, the more specific versions that creatures actually have don't. For example, note that the Mindbender ability quoted previously makes absolutely no reference to range. It's simply 'within 100 feet'.

[Curmudgeon]

It's simply 'within 100 feet'.
So it that 100' via the X-ray laser of boring, or the 100' ball of twine?

[Ashtagon]

I got a 3.5 answer. This is going to...take a minute.

Drow of the Underdark has this little gem:

"Given the unique form of Drow Sign Language, some dark elves learn to incorporate elements of the complex language into normal body movements.
Delivering a Secret Message: You can substitute Dexterity for Charisma when making Bluff checks to deliver a secret message, if you and the recipient are both fluent in Drow Sign Language."

So, all you have to do is be fluent with your minions in a morse code like language. Put 5 skill ranks in perform (dance:tap) for a +2 synergy bonus to the dexterity based bluff check to deliver a secret message to your minions, who must also be taught to understand the morse code language. If you only ever communicate in said language, it probably wouldn't be a big deal.

DSL is a sign language, not an echo language. It requires line of sight to work (unlike conventional languages, which require line of uh... sound).

[unseenmage]

In games I've been a part of we've always referred to the 'communication' portion of Telepathy for its range. That is, Telepathy has the same range as any other form of communication.

Speaking telepathically? Same range as speech. Shouting telepathically? Same range as shouting. Basically since the only ability Telepathy grants is communication then that's all it does. Same range and distance as speech.

[Necroticplague]

So it that 100' via the X-ray laser of boring, or the 100' ball of twine?

The former. 100 feet is 100 feet (following the rules under Position, Distance, and Movement, which mentions distance without mention of what's in that direction[except for when you're moving through them]), regardless of what's in that 100 feet.

[Curmudgeon]

The former. 100 feet is 100 feet (following the rules under Position, Distance, and Movement, which mentions distance without mention of what's in that direction[except for when you're moving through them]), regardless of what's in that 100 feet.
If your Telepathy is moving through, then it's got to use the same distance measurement. I've found at least one case in those rules where what's in that direction matters: a corner.
Measuring Distance

Diagonals

When measuring distance, the first diagonal counts as 1 square, the second counts as 2 squares, the third counts as 1, the fourth as 2, and so on.

You can’t move diagonally past a corner (even by taking a 5-foot step).
A corner counts as infinite distance on the 5' scale; you always have to go around. So straight line Telepathy can't function if there's a corner in the path.

[daremetoidareyo]

If your Telepathy is moving through, then it's got to use the same distance measurement. I've found at least one case in those rules where what's in that direction matters: a corner.
A corner counts as infinite distance on the 5' scale; you always have to go around. So straight line Telepathy can't function if there's a corner in the path.

Unless the way that the DM adjudicates it is a sphere that can penetrate all material substance and Identify "minds" within that radial projection. The telepath's mind has line of effect to all minds coexisting on the same plane within that radius. That's how I envision it. If a telepath is sitting in a windowless cafe, he can tell someone just walked by on the sidewalk 5 feet away on the other side of the wall.

Now, your super strict raw reading helps preserve some balance, but I'm not so sure that most tables will adjudicate that way.


DSL is a sign language, not an echo language. It requires line of sight to work (unlike conventional languages, which require line of uh... sound).

I stand by the use of bluff as a means to communicate to unseen creatures. The bluff check is two fold: beat a DC and you transfer a message concussively. The sense motive check of the opponent would be used to identify this tapping behavior as a means of communication. All it has to do is beat the bluff check result. Developing a morse code by which you communicate with your constructs can be covered in their design, and if you don't want to dump a skill point in speak language, you can simply say that you use this generic code, (then define the code) and that is how you communicate with all of your constructs. This approach has benefits and weaknesses, as certain rogueish face with sense motive builds would have, would probably be able to poach your code to scramble your minions. Talk to your DM about a way to do it. I'm sure that ya'll can hammer out a concussive code system. It's actually a pretty cool mental image.

the [construct] trainer feat...might also help...if you want to get real weird with it.

[Necroticplague]

If your Telepathy is moving through, then it's got to use the same distance measurement. I've found at least one case in those rules where what's in that direction matters: a corner.
A corner counts as infinite distance on the 5' scale; you always have to go around. So straight line Telepathy can't function if there's a corner in the path.

Telepathy isn't moving. That portion of the rules is irrelevant.

[Ashtagon]

I stand by the use of bluff as a means to communicate to unseen creatures. The bluff check is two fold: beat a DC and you transfer a message concussively. The sense motive check of the opponent would be used to identify this tapping behavior as a means of communication. All it has to do is beat the bluff check result. Developing a morse code by which you communicate with your constructs can be covered in their design, and if you don't want to dump a skill point in speak language, you can simply say that you use this generic code, (then define the code) and that is how you communicate with all of your constructs. This approach has benefits and weaknesses, as certain rogueish face with sense motive builds would have, would probably be able to poach your code to scramble your minions. Talk to your DM about a way to do it. I'm sure that ya'll can hammer out a concussive code system. It's actually a pretty cool mental image.


Can you show me where DSL is specifically stated as being a tapping language? Because all the fluff I ever read (eg page 40 of DotU) says its purely a visual language.


The meaning of a word is indicated by the patterns formed by the hands and fingers. Tense and subject/object links are conveyed through the precise angle of the hands from the "speaker," and emphasis and emotion are conveyed through facial expression and body language. This makes Drow Sign Language difficult to interpret if one is not the intended recipient.

Interestingly enough, many of the hand and finger motions of Drow Sign Language are exceedingly close to those that make up the fundamental basis of arcane somatic components...

I'm really unsure how that can be interpreted as a tapping language.

What you're trying to do is akin to using Bluff to convey a secret message to someone who happens to be deaf.