How Does a Vampire Lord?

[Red Fel]

Alright, time for an optimization exercise.

Let's start with two premises. First: Vampires (ones which do not sparkle) are cool. A Vampiric X is, generally speaking, cooler than a generic X. Second: Vampires (as implemented in D&D) suck. No pun intended. Yes, they are hard to kill, but having a +8 LA is just madness.

So, here's what we're going to do - we're going to discuss how to fix this for a Vampire PC. Here are some ground rules.
We will be using the Vampire template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm).
We will also be using the Vampire Lord template (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a). Yeah, we're going to assume that this character has been around for 100+ years and is at least level 10.
Anything else is flexible.
I want us to go through the combined templates, and figure out (1) if it's possible to work this out as-is, (2) if not, what changes, if any, could make the template(s) workable, and (3) if readjusting LA is really the only thing that works.

So, let's start with first principles.

Type becomes Undead (Augmented X).
Hit Dice are upgraded (retroactively and proactively) to d12.
+6 natural armor.
Slam attack.
Special Attacks: Blood Drain, Children of the Night, Dominate, Create Spawn, and Energy Drain.
Special Qualities: Alternate Form, DR, Fast Healing, Gaseous Form, Resistances, Spider Climb, and Turn Resistance.
Abilities: +6 Str, +4 Dex, NA Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Cha.
Skills: +8 to Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot.
Feats: Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes.
+8 LA.
Weaknesses: Repulsed by garlic, mirrors, and holy symbols. Unable to cross running water. Unable to enter a home unless invited.

Add +1 HP per level or HD.
Gain flight speed of 50 feet (perfect maneuverability).
Gain additional +6 natural armor bonus.
Upgrades to Blood Drain, Children of the Night, Dominate, Create Spawn, and Energy Drain. Upgrades to Alternate Form, DR, Fast Healing, and Turn Resistance.
Gain additional Special Qualities: Control Weather, Telekinesis, Telepathy.
Charisma to saves.
Additional Ability Upgrades: +6 Str, +4 Dex, NA Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Dex.
Additional Skill Upgrades: +4 to Scry and Sense Motive, +8 to Diplomacy and Intimidate.
Additional Feats: Iron Will and Leadership.
Modified Weaknesses: No longer repulsed by garlic, mirrors, or holy symbols. May cross or be immersed in running water. Not as vulnerable to sunlight. Not instantly killed by wooden stakes.
So, what can we do with all this to make it more playable?

[Inevitability]

If you assume that having levels in the vampire class counts as 'having the vampire template applied to you', you can take a single level of Vampire and then go Vampire Lord.

[(Un)Inspired]

Ok. I don't like vampires. I think they're trite, even without sparkles, and that LA 8 is a fittingly tough pill to swallow for anyone who want to play one.

That being said, a Vampire Lord essentially has 12 levels to work with on top of massive ability scores, some minionmancy (including leadership) and a mixed bag of nuts worth of Special Qualities, Special Attacks and Feats.

For those 12 levels I would go Savage Bard 5/Ur Priest 2/Mythic Theurge 5.

Take Inspiration Boost as a spell, Song of the Heart as a Feat, a Badge of Valor and a Vest of Legends. Despite your relatively few Bard levels you'll be able to put out +5 Inspire Courage. Inspire Courage is awesome with all your minions from Children of the Night and Leadership (too bad Words of Creation is totally off limits for you).

You've got Cleric casting up to 7th level spells which means that you can at least fight with 12 bab despite your multiclassing and you can keep yourself on your feet with Harm (allow you're fairly unkillable you hp is distressingly low). I don't think I have to really explain how important packing as much casting as possible into a build with limited class levels is. Build your own Dracula castle with Wall of Stone and Stone Shape; bolster the ranks of your vampire army with Animate Dead and Create Undead.

On top of your 7th level Cleric spells you'll have 4th level Bard spells. Not enough to set the world on fire but you still have access to Dimesion Door, Haste, Greater Invisibility, and Shadow Conjuration. Still plenty of gems that will be useful to a character of any level. Obviously MADness between Cha and Wis for two different casting classes isn't as much of an issue for you.

I think that's about as much power as you'll be able to squeeze out of those 12 class levels. I think Ur Priest and Savage Bard offer the sort of power that compliments a Vampire Lord well (your still charming people, creating minions, kicking ass in combat, and manipulating your environment; only more so).

[Flickerdart]

The best thing a vampire can do is create exponentially more powerful minions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?327984-3-5-Vampire-shenanigans) to do its dirty work.

[atemu1234]

Play a silverbrow human in addition to normal templates, because if savage bard gives inspire courage, DFI is an option.

[ShurikVch]

Take 1 level in the Vampire Template Class (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a), then 3 levels in Uncanny Trickster (which give you 2 levels of class features from Vampire Template Class), then 6 levels in Legacy Champion (which give you class features from the rest 5 levels of Vampire Template Class) - this way you will be full power Vampire at ECL 17 while your LA is only +1

[Nettlekid]

To start with the regular template, a lot of people suggest taking one level in the Vampire Savage Progression and then progressing it using Legacy Champion. It eats up a couple of extra levels, but at least you get HD, saves, BAB and skill points from Legacy Champion that you would just be without for the template. It also gives you a legitimate excuse to have that "ancient weapon of dark vampiric power" or what-have-you.
(I see I've been ninja'd on this.)

Personally I think that a Vampire Lord is best suited to a melee type, maybe something with Cha-based additional features like a Knight. It has so much bulk in the form of its DR and Fast Healing, and it's next to impossible to actually keep dead, so it can certainly take a hit. But if you went caster, it's hard to make up that huge number of lost levels, and the template's gifts are overshadowed by the use of spells. The trick is then to use your bonus Leadership to have a caster as your loyal thrall, to help out with anything that you can't just do on your own. Crafting or teleporting comes to mind.

That at-will Telekinesis also makes Master of the Unseen Hand a good fit, especially since if anyone's going to be doing Darth Vader force chokes, it'll be a Vampire Lord. But that class isn't all that great. I think a Vampire Lord should be a sneaky, charming melee character. Someone who gets in good with society, lets his minions (who are definitely kept weaker than him, but only just) do his dirty work, and if all goes as planned no one will ever know he's a vampire. at all.

As for the LA, I think LA +4 is suitable for a regular vampire (is it really twice as strong as the Lich template? I wouldn't say so) and then have an additional +4 for Vampire Lord.

[Lagren]

Moderately obvious options:

- You have Telepathy. Take Mindsight from Lords of Madness. Depending on reading, you now have 1 mile of Blindsense.
- You have at-will Alternate Form, which qualifies you for Warshaper.
- Stormlord to abuse at-will Control Weather.
- Army-building with Create Spawn/Children of the Night. You can call 1d4+1 Bat Swarms per day, and they stay forever: that's more than enough to riddle a city with your eyes and ears.
- You can dominate with your voice. The target must merely 'be able to hear your voice as it speaks at a normal volume level.' Find a means of amplification and dominate everything.
- Use your at-will Control Weather to carry your gaseous form over long distances quickly.

Thoughts on optimization paths:
- Because you have Cha to Saves and it's what your Dominate is based on, we probably want to stay Cha-based. Fortunately, Cha really benefits from X stat to Y bonus manipulation. Consider Arcane Duelist/Sorcerer/Mystic Wanderer/Favored Soul/Bard.
- Does Undead type unlock anything particularly nice for us, aside from its own inherent goodies?

[Florian]

Making this a 3.PF mix, I´d go Legacy Champion (3,5) on the Vampire Class and Evangelist (PF) on the Vampire Lord class. The rest could be Ur-Priest.

[ShurikVch]

There is one more way to lower the LA

It may be a bit weird, silly, "no sane DM would..." blah-blah-blah, but still RAW legal

1. Build an Effigy (or Ice Beast) out of Half-Fiend (Goristro (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a))/Half-Minotaur/Half-Troll/Tiny Animal (½ HD) with at least 4 legs; it's Medium-sized Construct
2. Cast Greater Humanoid Essence on it; now it's a Medium-sized Humanoid
3. Kill it with the death touch (power of Death Domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#deathDomain)); now it's dead Medium-sized Humanoid
4. Use Shrouds of the Unholy (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x) on your dead Effigy/Ice Beast; select the Vampire; now you have a 4-legged Medium-sized Vampire
5. Perform on it a Ritual of Vitality (from Savage Species) to change it type to Magical Beast (I usually prefer to apply the Shadow Creature template (Manual of the Planes) for it, but, considering the ritual in question is on par with power of Wish/Miracle, you probably can to just directly change type without any further template stacking); alternately, you may just cast the Wish or Miracle to get the same result
6. Use our new Magical Beast Vampire in Ritual of Vitality to make Tauric Creature out of it and You; now you are of Monstrous Humanoid type, and have the Vampire template (because ex-Construct had it); LA is only +3, and 1,5 HD (which would probably rounded down to 1 HD; but even if not, it's 2 HD at worst)

[Red Fel]

Well, there have been some interesting suggestions for builds, including the use of certain classes to "count as" Vampire levels. That said, and perhaps I wasn't clear on this point, the question isn't just how to build a Vampire Lord, but whether (1) the template can be made worth the massive LA, (2) we can find a way to fix the template, or (3) the only solution is to nix the LA somehow.

Now, some of the suggestions mentioned the Vampire template class, and that's a possibility. I don't think the Vampire Lord template requires that the base creature have all the powers and stats; rather, it has to simply be a vampire.

It's worth noting that a creature taking the Vampire template class doesn't actually become undead until level 7. This creates an interesting situation. Assuming a creature taking only one level of the Vampire template class is considered a Vampire, that creature is a Vampire that isn't undead. Further, the Vampire Lord template does not require the base creature to be undead - it applies to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid that has had the Vampire template applied to it. (This creates the question of whether a creature who takes the template class has received the template, which is another issue.) As a result, assuming a non-undead Vampire Template Class 1/ X 9 can survive for 100 years, it could theoretically become a living Vampire Lord.

Further, the abilities described under the Vampire Lord template apply in addition to those in the Vampire template. So, for example, the template class doesn't give you the Dominate ability until level 3; a level 1 in the template class doesn't have that. But because of how it's worded, the Vampire Lord template gives you that ability anyway, just a bigger version. The phrasing doesn't just upgrade the ability, it outright gives you the superior version.

I have to admit, with a permissive GM, taking a level of the template class and switching over to the Vampire Lord is extremely appealing.

[Florian]

If you´re below the critical HD/class level limit, wouldn´t you just be a Vampire Spawn? So it makes sense that the full transformation to undead happens after that period has passed.

[Flickerdart]

If you´re below the critical HD/class level limit, wouldn´t you just be a Vampire Spawn? So it makes sense that the full transformation to undead happens after that period has passed.
A vampire lord can sire full vampires from a creature of any HD, so if your former master was also a vampire lord, you can start at level 1.

[daremetoidareyo]

A vampire lord can sire full vampires from a creature of any HD, so if your former master was also a vampire lord, you can start at level 1.

And some high power adventurers swooped in, killed your vampire lord master, bing bang boom: now you're blade, the living vampire. Backstory: Maximized!

[ZamielVanWeber]

A vampire lord can sire full vampires from a creature of any HD, so if your former master was also a vampire lord, you can start at level 1.

But the vampires spawned by a vampire lord can never, themselves, become vampire lords.

[Flickerdart]

But the vampires spawned by a vampire lord can never, themselves, become vampire lords.
I can't find where it says that in the template.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I can't find where it says that in the template.


Vampire lords are those few vampires who meet a strict set of requirements. They each have lived as a vampire for at least 100 years, and have acquired 10 or more class levels or Hit Dice. They tend to possess levels of arcane spellcasting classes, but not always. A vampire lord was formerly a vampire under the control of another vampire (not a vampire lord) and has slain its creator. Further, the vampire lord must have created at least 10 vampires and survived an assassination attempt by one of its subjects before achieving vampire lord status.


As base vampire, but vampire lords create only vampire slaves, never vampire spawn. The new vampire is enslaved to the vampire lord until its master's death, and the willpower of the vampire lord is too strong to allow it to break free of its enslavement.

So it is extremely difficult as it requires someone to control you and force you to slay your vampire lord creator and then you somehow break free of their control and go from there.

[thethird]

[...]This creates the question of whether a creature who takes the template class has received the template, which is another issue.[...]


[...]The Savage Progressions article series does the same with templates, breaking each into a number of class levels equal to its level adjustment. Such a treatment allows a character who acquires a template to progress through these template "class levels" just as she would normal character levels, thereby maintaining the same relative level of power as the other PCs in her party. The player of the templated character gets to gain abilities at every level, just as the other PCs do, and her presence doesn't cause balance problems for the DM.[...]

I would say that it counts as the template.

[Callin]

If its an issue just take the Savage Vampire Template in Libris Mortis when you take the first level of Savage Vampire. Bam you have a Vampire Template now.

[Crake]

I have an optional gestalt rule that I use specifically for things like vampires. Hell, I've even playtested it with a vampire player, and it worked pretty well.

[DarkSoul]

I think that in order to bring down the level adjustment, you'd have to strip the template down to the bare essentials of what makes a vampire a vampire. Personally, I'd start with the natural armor and slam attack. The strength boost is enough to portray that vampires are stronger than mortals; take Improved Unarmed Strike if you want to punch things to death and get rid of the slam attack. As for Natural Armor, I'm not up on my vampire fiction other than movies, but only in rare cases do I remember vampires having obviously tougher than normal skin. Usually it's only when they're in some other form that's obviously not human.

Regarding hit dice, however, I could see borrowing one thing from Pathfinder's vampire: Use Charisma in place of Constitution for the vampire, for everything dependent on Con. Bonus hit points, Fort saves, everything. If you do that, then don't adjust hit dice, or only adjust one die size to a maximum of d12.

Special Attacks:

Blood Drain: Make it 1 Con point per round.
Children of the Night: The only time I can remember this being used is by Dracula, who is likely a Vampire Lord anyway, so cut it.
Dominate: Make it Charm Person instead? I don't know that even Dracula blatantly controlled his targets so much as making them adore him, and do whatever he wanted willingly. Maybe a suggestion effect?
Create Spawn: Needs adjusted. Let the vampire control HD of spawn totaling no more than its own total hit dice.
Energy Drain: I don't remember any reference to vampires sucking the life out of their targets simply by hitting them. Usually it's all in the bite. Cut it.


Special Qualities:

Alternate Form: Sure, but limit the forms by your HD. You need to have at least as many hit dice as the form you're taking.
Damage Reduction: Again, not significantly harder to hurt, that I can remember. If nothing else, Fast Healing addresses the issue.
Fast Healing: Sure, let it stay. The first time the party cleric forgets and drops cure serious wounds on you, you're going to want all the help you can get anyway.
Gaseous Form: Vampire Lord only. Cut it.
Resistances: Not that big a deal. Maybe drop to 5 if necessary.
Spider Climb: Also not that big a deal.
Turn Resistance: Keep it.


Abilities: This is where the vampire's legendary strength, speed, allure, etc., come from. I don't quite get why becoming a vampire would make one smarter or wiser, however. If anything your feeding urges would occasionally make you reckless which is, if anything, unwise. I'd probably drop the Intelligence and Wisdom bonuses.

Skills: Drop the bonus to +4. You could even go down to +2 and make them all class skills.

Feats: Cut them all.



Type becomes Undead (Augmented X).
Hit Dice are upgraded (retroactively and proactively) to the next larger die size, to a maximum of d12.
Special Attacks: Blood Drain (1 Con/round, still heals), Charm Person, Create Spawn (total HD of spawn equal to your HD)
Special Qualities: Alternate Form (form HD less than or equal to your HD), Fast Healing, Resistances, Spider Climb, and Turn Resistance.
Abilities: +6 Str, +4 Dex, NA Con, +4 Cha. A vampire uses Charisma in place of Constitution for all purposes, including bonus hit points, Fortitude saves, and anything else that depends on Constitution.
Skills: +4 to Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot.
Weaknesses: Repulsed by garlic, mirrors, and holy symbols. Unable to cross running water. Unable to enter a home unless invited.



I feel like that's closer to a half-fiend/half-celestial level. +4 LA maybe?

[Jowgen]

Abilities: Increase from the base vampire as follows: Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4. As undead creatures, vampire lords have no Constitution scores.

This part of the template seems like it gets rid of the "Living Vampire Lord" conundrum, for better or worse.

[The Insanity]

Good thing I play PF (well, 3.P) where LA is replaced by CR.
Would 2 "LA" be less painful on the Vampire template in your opinion, Red Fel? And then 3 "LA" on Vamp. Lord?

[Eldan]

I'd say vampire would be pretty dang strong for LA+2. Sure, the weaknesses are annoying, but you can work around them and then you get a pretty decent creature type and tons of abilities that are very strong for those levels.

[Red Fel]

Good thing I play PF (well, 3.P) where LA is replaced by CR.
Would 2 "LA" be less painful on the Vampire template in your opinion, Red Fel? And then 3 "LA" on Vamp. Lord?

Wahey, look at that. PF's Vampire (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/vampire), and PF's "Vampire Lord" (the Dread Vampire (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/dread-vampire-cr-3)). CR +2 and +3, respectively. The latter does not require the former.

I'll agree with Eldan, that's pretty powerful for LA +2. And Dread Vampire... +3 is more reasonable, but still a bit low. Then again, +8 is outrageous. Hmm.

[Eldan]

Well, let's look at the PF stats for a bit. For a fighter or rogue type, you trade two levels for a ton of immunities, d12 HD, Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4, no constitution, at will beast shape II, gaseous form for infiltration, summoning (2d6 wolves at level 3? Yes, please!), Damage reduction, natural armor +6... I'd call that worth it, except you can be held at bay, which sucks for a melee fighter. Some kind of thrown weapons or archery, maybe, combined with stealth? On the low to mid levels, I'd say that trade is well, well worth it.

[DarkSoul]

It doesn't look like PF vampires change HD at all, unless they're racial hit dice, which become d8's. They do treat Charisma as Constitution in all cases, though, so they get much-needed bonus hp. Also, take a look at Appendix 4 in the PF Bestiary, "Monsters as PCs". It goes through their guidelines for playing monsters, both in all-monster groups and mixed groups of monsters and regular pcs.

[Flickerdart]

So it is extremely difficult as it requires someone to control you and force you to slay your vampire lord creator and then you somehow break free of their control and go from there.
Extremely difficult is not impossible! There are a few situations that would let you do this, such as your master voluntarily releasing you (and you repaying him with treachery), your master being destroyed by someone else which frees you and then returning in the manner that vampire lords do, but you are still free and can kill him again, and so on.

[Florian]

It doesn't look like PF vampires change HD at all, unless they're racial hit dice, which become d8's. They do treat Charisma as Constitution in all cases, though, so they get much-needed bonus hp. Also, take a look at Appendix 4 in the PF Bestiary, "Monsters as PCs". It goes through their guidelines for playing monsters, both in all-monster groups and mixed groups of monsters and regular pcs.

No, they don´t change HD to d12 in PF. I think that is one reason why the Vampire template is rated quite low compared to 3,5.
The other reason is, that besides pure caster levels, losing a level in PF hurts more than in 3.5, as it will nearly always affect more of your auto-scaling abilities.

For example, even with the stat-boost, a vampire magus will fall behind a regular elf magus in pure performance.

Edit: Naturally, there are exceptions to this. Vampire and Anti-Paladin? Pure terror, especially on Bugbears and Drow...

[ZamielVanWeber]

Extremely difficult is not impossible! There are a few situations that would let you do this, such as your master voluntarily releasing you (and you repaying him with treachery), your master being destroyed by someone else which frees you and then returning in the manner that vampire lords do, but you are still free and can kill him again, and so on.

Not clear about how impermanent destruction affects your loytalty/the must destroy your master qualifier. Also I changed from impossible to extremely difficult because I misremembered the qualifier (I thought it demanded that you break free of your master's control and then kill him, not just kill him).

[The Insanity]

Wahey, look at that. PF's Vampire (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/vampire), and PF's "Vampire Lord" (the Dread Vampire (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/dread-vampire-cr-3)). CR +2 and +3, respectively. The latter does not require the former.

I'll agree with Eldan, that's pretty powerful for LA +2. And Dread Vampire... +3 is more reasonable, but still a bit low. Then again, +8 is outrageous. Hmm.
Didn't even mean Dread Vampire, but the actual Vamp. Lord, which I used on an NPC.
IMO, if the template is a bit stronger than 2 levels, that's fine, better to err in the players favor balace-wise than make them underpowered.

[Taelas]

Extremely difficult is not impossible! There are a few situations that would let you do this, such as your master voluntarily releasing you (and you repaying him with treachery), your master being destroyed by someone else which frees you and then returning in the manner that vampire lords do, but you are still free and can kill him again, and so on.

"A vampire lord was formerly a vampire under the control of another vampire (not a vampire lord) and has slain its creator." (emphasis mine)

It's slightly ambiguous but it does imply that a vampire lord couldn't be created by another vampire lord. Unless the controlling vampire is not the creator, but how exactly would that happen?

[ZamielVanWeber]

"A vampire lord was formerly a vampire under the control of another vampire (not a vampire lord) and has slain its creator." (emphasis mine)

It's slightly ambiguous but it does imply that a vampire lord couldn't be created by another vampire lord. Unless the controlling vampire is not the creator, but how exactly would that happen?

Control Undead comes to mind.

[Taelas]

Control Undead comes to mind.

It's kind of sketchy, but I can see it, I guess.

[martixy]

He doesn't even! (sorry)

My gripe with LA has always been that it doesn't let you play more interesting things.

The amount of LA may have made sense in core-only, where the optimization ceiling for characters with class levels has been much, much lower.

So rather than forcing things by trying to compensate with even more optimization on the class level side, I see no problem with straight up cutting the LA in half.
Or using a system that spreads the burden - like Crake's thingie.

Also... for the love of all that is holy... remove all the stereotypes.
If those stay I wouldn't play it a no LA, let alone 8!

[SirNMN]

Alright, time for an optimization exercise.


We will be using the Vampire template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm).
We will also be using the Vampire Lord template (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a). Yeah, we're going to assume that this character has been around for 100+ years and is at least level 10.
Anything else is flexible.
I want us to go through the combined templates, and figure out (1) if it's possible to work this out as-is, (2) if not, what changes, if any, could make the template(s) workable, and (3) if readjusting LA is really the only thing that works.

So, let's start with first principles.

Type becomes Undead (Augmented X).
Hit Dice are upgraded (retroactively and proactively) to d12.
+6 natural armor.
Slam attack.
Special Attacks: Blood Drain, Children of the Night, Dominate, Create Spawn, and Energy Drain.
Special Qualities: Alternate Form, DR, Fast Healing, Gaseous Form, Resistances, Spider Climb, and Turn Resistance.
Abilities: +6 Str, +4 Dex, NA Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Cha.
Skills: +8 to Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot.
Feats: Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes.
+8 LA.
Weaknesses: Repulsed by garlic, mirrors, and holy symbols. Unable to cross running water. Unable to enter a home unless invited.

Add +1 HP per level or HD.
Gain flight speed of 50 feet (perfect maneuverability).
Gain additional +6 natural armor bonus.
Upgrades to Blood Drain, Children of the Night, Dominate, Create Spawn, and Energy Drain. Upgrades to Alternate Form, DR, Fast Healing, and Turn Resistance.
Gain additional Special Qualities: Control Weather, Telekinesis, Telepathy.
Charisma to saves.
Additional Ability Upgrades: +6 Str, +4 Dex, NA Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Dex.
Additional Skill Upgrades: +4 to Scry and Sense Motive, +8 to Diplomacy and Intimidate.
Additional Feats: Iron Will and Leadership.
Modified Weaknesses: No longer repulsed by garlic, mirrors, or holy symbols. May cross or be immersed in running water. Not as vulnerable to sunlight. Not instantly killed by wooden stakes.
So, what can we do with all this to make it more playable?
I hate to nit pick but for vampire lord it is + Additional Ability Upgrades: +6 Str, +4 Dex, NA Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Cha. and I don't know it this is 3.5 or 3.0 if it is 3.5 then scry no longer exists as a skill

[Tarvus]

- You have at-will Alternate Form, which qualifies you for Warshaper.

Warshaper explicitly says "The alternate form ability (possessed by quasits, vampires, and others) is insufficient to become a warshaper" and none of the other means of qualifying can be stretched to cover the Vampire Lord's version either.



- You can dominate with your voice. The target must merely 'be able to hear your voice as it speaks at a normal volume level.' Find a means of amplification and dominate everything.

Definitely this. Being able to dominate at a distance can be ridiculously powerful with the right planning. My favorite item for that is the Howling Helm (MMV pg. 191). It lets you be heard up to 6 miles away in otherwise quiet areas. Fittingly enough its in a side bar of a Vampire character.

There's also the Speaker's Trumpet somewhere in the Dragon mags that lets you be heard over any environmental effect, so even storms and the like can't stop you. I think its much shorter range though.

[thethird]

Definitely this. Being able to dominate at a distance can be ridiculously powerful with the right planning. My favorite item for that is the Howling Helm (MMV pg. 191). It lets you be heard up to 6 miles away in otherwise quiet areas. Fittingly enough its in a side bar of a Vampire character.

There's also the Speaker's Trumpet somewhere in the Dragon mags that lets you be heard over any environmental effect, so even storms and the like can't stop you. I think its much shorter range though.

There is also the admiral's bicorne which also comboes rather well with the leadership bonus feat from vampire lord.

[Tarvus]

There is also the admiral's bicorne which also comboes rather well with the leadership bonus feat from vampire lord.

The synergy definitely makes it worth it, but just strictly for optimizing dominate I know for sure the range on that one is much shorter - a (comparatively) measly 100ft.

Plus it doesn't quite have the same style, does it? Wooing pretty virgins to you from their bed late at night and it turns out you're just standing in their front yard. Not even luring them to the abandoned church, or the Foreboding Castle across town. How embarrassing. :smallbiggrin: