Mage armor

[BootStrapTommy]

Does mage armor crap on class features which make AC a function of multiply Ability Scores? How about the Robes of the Archmagi?

[D.U.P.A.]

You mean features like Unarmored defense? Then the answer is they do not stack, AC becomes 13 + Dex.

[DireSickFish]

Not really. There are minor concerns with mage armor like it only lasting 8 hours or being dispellable. A lot of the time if you are playing a Barbarian or Monk you are taking a race which gives you a bonus to one or both AC stats so you will match the +3 at level one or be not far behind with a +2. The Unarmored defenses also top out 2 points higher.

Con for the barbarian already has great secondary benefits with HP so is likely to be high and maxed second anyway. DC's are semi important for a monk with stunning strike being one of the better uses for ki points.

That said I think make a character concept that uses mage armor in place of this at early levels or at all level is viable.

[Zman]

Most things in 5e are replacements for the standard 10 +Dex = AC. Unarmored Defense makes it 10+Dex+Con/Wis = AC. Armor makes it 11/12+Dex=AC, etc.

Mage armor is simply 13+Dex, just like the Dragon Sorcerer Ability.

Robes of the ArchMagi make it 15+Dex, etc.

5e with bounded accuracy is very careful about stacking effects.

[SharkForce]

Does mage armor crap on class features which make AC a function of multiply Ability Scores? How about the Robes of the Archmagi?

nope.

barbarians shouldn't bother with unarmored defense. they can use armour, and unless you rolled and got super lucky, you should use armour. unarmoured defense is there so that you have the option of being a (mostly) naked barbarian, not because it is an important part of the class.

monks already need both dexterity and wisdom anyways, should start with about as much AC as mage armour would have given them (as close to 16 in both dex and wis as you can get without completely dumping con), and will want to progress both of those attributes regardless (wisdom determines the DC of all the monk abilities that make a monk worth playing), and will ultimately end up with a higher AC as a result.

robes of the archmagi are a legendary item that uses up an attunement slot. they are also only usable by classes that have better things to do with their ASIs than increase their dex (this is not to say that a wizard or sorcerer or warlock has dire need of feats, mind you, though some builds might (melee warlocks typically *do* have dire need of feats for example). but frankly, there are a number of feats i'd take before i'd even remotely consider throwing an ASI into dex on the majority of spellcasters that could use a robe of the archmagi; resilient, warcaster, elemental adept (for sorcerers), keen mind (for wizards), heck, even armour proficiency feats sound pretty decent (they're half-feats so i could boost con, which i care about more, and increase my AC without needing to invest 3 more ASIs into dex to have respectable AC, and some of the casters already have light armour proficiency so medium is a very easy jump). dex is at best your third-most important stat on most casters, unless they are some sort of gish, so it really shouldn't be that high, and it really isn't better to have slightly higher AC than a feat (the initiative bonus might be worth mentioning, but as it turns out there's a feat that blows a dex increase out of the water for that also). most should have 14, or at best 16, dex... so, 18 AC, which should be worse than what the monk is rocking by the time you get your hands on one of these things.

by the time a robe of the archmagi rolls around, it would be hoped that a monk might have already found something that improves their AC also, still keeping them ahead of the robe-wearer (in all likelihood, the robe is mostly giving you a mediocre AC at best anyways).

this is not to say that the robe is not overpowered or anything... it is ridiculously overpowered. laughably so, really. +2 spell DC is probably the most broken item ability in the entire system, or would be if warlocks couldn't get a +3. but the AC? meh. 20 AC, even assuming you invested heavily in dex instead of picking up some much more useful feats, is ultimately not even that good at late levels, whether you're a monk or a wizard.

[eastmabl]

barbarians shouldn't bother with unarmored defense. they can use armour, and unless you rolled and got super lucky, you should use armour. unarmoured defense is there so that you have the option of being a (mostly) naked barbarian, not because it is an important part of the class.

Dex-based barbarians (which are a thing) take great advantage of Unarmored Defense. With 16s in Dex and Con, you have 16 AC in your tighty whities, which is the same as a barbarian in scale and a +2 modifier. As you hit your ASIs, your AC keeps increasing, instead of being capped by the armor you wear.

[Foxhound438]

Dex-based barbarians (which are a thing) take great advantage of Unarmored Defense. With 16s in Dex and Con, you have 16 AC in your tighty whities, which is the same as a barbarian in scale and a +2 modifier. As you hit your ASIs, your AC keeps increasing, instead of being capped by the armor you wear.

well you still get the damage resistance, but your rage damage only applies to strength based attacks, so you definitely lose out on damage for a really miniscule benefit. you're probably reckless attacking as a barbarian all the time anyway so AC becomes superfluous, you're basically always getting hit for half of the damage with an ac of 14, or always getting hit for half of the damage with an ac of 16 and doing less damage in return...

kind of off topic, but there's that.

for the original question, depends on interpretation. some people say you get to chose between 2 affects that offer alternative ac calculations. the creature has to be willing either way, so if they don't want it you can't give it to them.

[SharkForce]

well you still get the damage resistance, but your rage damage only applies to strength based attacks, so you definitely lose out on damage for a really miniscule benefit. you're probably reckless attacking as a barbarian all the time anyway so AC becomes superfluous, you're basically always getting hit for half of the damage with an ac of 14, or always getting hit for half of the damage with an ac of 16 and doing less damage in return...

kind of off topic, but there's that.

for the original question, depends on interpretation. some people say you get to chose between 2 affects that offer alternative ac calculations. the creature has to be willing either way, so if they don't want it you can't give it to them.

this exactly. you *can* make a dex-based barbarian, but it's pretty obviously never going to be the optimal route to take with the official rules, whether mage armour exists or not, and will be sub-optimal to just wearing armour regardless.

[DireSickFish]

this exactly. you *can* make a dex-based barbarian, but it's pretty obviously never going to be the optimal route to take with the official rules, whether mage armour exists or not, and will be sub-optimal to just wearing armour regardless.

It will actually have optimal defenses of almost any class in the game. Optimization isn't always about DPR.

Optimizing to be as unkillable as possible is also not a useless optimization goal. And while killing things before they can kill you is desirable it isn't always possible or optimal.

[SharkForce]

It will actually have optimal defenses of almost any class in the game. Optimization isn't always about DPR.

Optimizing to be as unkillable as possible is also not a useless optimization goal. And while killing things before they can kill you is desirable it isn't always possible or optimal.

20 AC by the time you can get it from a dex-based barbarian is not that impressive any more. it certainly does far less to make you unkillable than the resistance from rage and the high hit points from high con and being a barbarian. likewise with 22 AC from a level 20 barbarian. yeah, it's nice. no, it isn't going to keep things from hitting you often as not.

barbarians are not about dexterity. you can make a dex-focused one, sure. but it isn't optimal. your damage will be low, and your toughness will therefore be largely irrelevant because there is no reason to target you and your incredible toughness over the much more dangerous and more easily killed other members of your party.

meanwhile, a strength-based barbarian (with probably 12 or 14 dex) will have rather similar AC and HP thanks to medium armour and con being still a great stat, but vastly superior damage (especially with feats).

[DireSickFish]

20 AC by the time you can get it from a dex-based barbarian is not that impressive any more. it certainly does far less to make you unkillable than the resistance from rage and the high hit points from high con and being a barbarian. likewise with 22 AC from a level 20 barbarian. yeah, it's nice. no, it isn't going to keep things from hitting you often as not.

barbarians are not about dexterity. you can make a dex-focused one, sure. but it isn't optimal. your damage will be low, and your toughness will therefore be largely irrelevant because there is no reason to target you and your incredible toughness over the much more dangerous and more easily killed other members of your party.

meanwhile, a strength-based barbarian (with probably 12 or 14 dex) will have rather similar AC and HP thanks to medium armour and con being still a great stat, but vastly superior damage (especially with feats).

It's 22 and 24 AC actually, because if you're optimizing for AC you will be using a shield.

I think the crux of our argument is if being durable is good or not. You seem to be of the opinion that it is a secondary concern, or that there is a point at which you are "durable enough" and anything beyond that is either a waste or diminishing returns.

I, and others, are of the opinion that there is no such thing as to durable and are willing to sacrifice damage output to gain it.

This seem accurate?

[HoarsHalberd]

20 AC by the time you can get it from a dex-based barbarian is not that impressive any more. it certainly does far less to make you unkillable than the resistance from rage and the high hit points from high con and being a barbarian. likewise with 22 AC from a level 20 barbarian. yeah, it's nice. no, it isn't going to keep things from hitting you often as not.

barbarians are not about dexterity. you can make a dex-focused one, sure. but it isn't optimal. your damage will be low, and your toughness will therefore be largely irrelevant because there is no reason to target you and your incredible toughness over the much more dangerous and more easily killed other members of your party.

meanwhile, a strength-based barbarian (with probably 12 or 14 dex) will have rather similar AC and HP thanks to medium armour and con being still a great stat, but vastly superior damage (especially with feats).

If you're going for optimal defence (though I agree this is a suboptimal goal) dexbarian is the best choice, especially with a shield. 22AC going to 24 AC at level 20 is pretty damn impressive, and by going bear at 3rd and 14th you greatly increase your own survivability and the survivability of your other teammates. The enemies either choose to attack your squishier nearby allies with disadvantage or attack the incredibly tanky barbarian. It isn't as optimal, in my eyes, as a combined offence/defence build. But it isn't terrible.

[BRC]

Personally, I prefer to think about it like this.

If you WANT to play a conan-style shirtless barbarian, it's pretty easy to get 15-16 AC, which, while hardly optimized for defense, puts you at the same level as somebody wearing chainmail, and so is not unreasonable.
Especially since, as a barbarian, you're going to be reckless attacking, relying on your Rage and high HP to soak damage anyway, so having 15 AC is viable.

On one hand, yeah, you could just wear armor and have a better AC.

On the other hand, You could wade into battle in naked defiance of the enemy's weapons, deflecting arrows with your abs and laughing.

[Foxhound438]

If you're going for optimal defence (though I agree this is a suboptimal goal) dexbarian is the best choice, especially with a shield. 22AC going to 24 AC at level 20 is pretty damn impressive, and by going bear at 3rd and 14th you greatly increase your own survivability and the survivability of your other teammates. The enemies either choose to attack your squishier nearby allies with disadvantage or attack the incredibly tanky barbarian. It isn't as optimal, in my eyes, as a combined offence/defence build. But it isn't terrible.

compared to a L20 barb built for damage having 19 ac without a shield or 21 with, and doing significantly better damage (+7 str and +4 damage from rage) the extra 3 ac is pretty garbage, especially when monsters at that high of a level often have on the order of a +14 to hit. your 24 ac still gets hit 75-ish percent of the time if you're reckess attacking, or even if the dm is just making the enemy have advantage from flanking or whatever otherwise. hitting harder seems to be a fine tradeoff for getting hit only a little more often, considering you only take half damage anyway.

[SharkForce]

It's 22 and 24 AC actually, because if you're optimizing for AC you will be using a shield.

I think the crux of our argument is if being durable is good or not. You seem to be of the opinion that it is a secondary concern, or that there is a point at which you are "durable enough" and anything beyond that is either a waste or diminishing returns.

I, and others, are of the opinion that there is no such thing as to durable and are willing to sacrifice damage output to gain it.

This seem accurate?

no.

i think that durability is good, but before it matters you need to be a threat. if you are the least threatening and the most durable (and a dexbarian either can't hit the broad side of a barn or does 2 regular basic attacks with no boosts to damage, putting them behind basically any other melee in damage), that just means you can be completely ignored until after your more dangerous friends have been killed, and thus your toughness is not particularly valuable. your toughness is nothing more than a personal resource, and is protecting the least amount of offense possible, whereas a less tough but more damaging barbarian has slightly less toughness, but it is more of a party resource because you are much harder to just ignore, and your toughness provides some protection to everyone else.

[coredump]

20 AC by the time you can get it from a dex-based barbarian is not that impressive any more. it certainly does far less to make you unkillable than the resistance from rage and the high hit points from high con and being a barbarian. likewise with 22 AC from a level 20 barbarian. yeah, it's nice. no, it isn't going to keep things from hitting you often as not.

barbarians are not about dexterity. you can make a dex-focused one, sure. but it isn't optimal. your damage will be low, and your toughness will therefore be largely irrelevant because there is no reason to target you and your incredible toughness over the much more dangerous and more easily killed other members of your party.

meanwhile, a strength-based barbarian (with probably 12 or 14 dex) will have rather similar AC and HP thanks to medium armour and con being still a great stat, but vastly superior damage (especially with feats).

I have seen some pretty 'optiimal' Dex barb builds. you also get to use a Shield, so a 22/23 AC is pretty easy, and your Init is amazing, as are your saves etc.

[HoarsHalberd]

Personally, I prefer to think about it like this.

If you WANT to play a conan-style shirtless barbarian, it's pretty easy to get 15-16 AC, which, while hardly optimized for defense, puts you at the same level as somebody wearing chainmail, and so is not unreasonable.
Especially since, as a barbarian, you're going to be reckless attacking, relying on your Rage and high HP to soak damage anyway, so having 15 AC is viable.

On one hand, yeah, you could just wear armor and have a better AC.

On the other hand, You could wade into battle in naked defiance of the enemy's weapons, deflecting arrows with your abs and laughing.

or you can get lucky rolled stats and become a bar/brabarian god! But yeah for most characters, the barbarians unarmoured defence is suboptimal and should only be used for RP reasons, for lucky characters, for dexbarians and for situations you aren't in your armour. (Maybe you sleep out of your armour. Maybe you're captured. Who knows.)

[thepsyker]

Thinking about it isn't that hard to match half-plate with the Barbarians Unarmored Defense, you just need 20Con and 14Dex for a +5(what the armor would give you) and a +2(what you would get from Dex with armor). If you go mountain dwarf and apply your stats right, you can do that and still reach 20St with an ASI left over for a feat or using an ASI to get 16Dx. Add on the capstone, with a final ASI Dx increase and a shield and you are looking at around 22AC naked with a shield. A variant human who selects a st/cn half feat or a half orc could also probably pull it off, but might need an extra dump stat.

[MeeposFire]

Armor still has a potential advantage in that you can find magical armor. It is not automatic but honestly magic armor is still fairly common in published adventures, item rarity, and even in numerous home games (maybe not yours but if we are being honest you know that a bunch do). Even a +1 makes armor a better choice than mage armor and the like because now it is the same AC for less investment (ASIs, spell slots, or class features are bigger costs than a likely found armor or bought armor). If you get a +2 or 3 it is even better. It is not automatic but it is there.

Don't bother mentioning bracers of armor when it comes to characters that tend to use armor. Using a precious item atunement slot on just AC is probably not a good trade when the armor guy does not have to do that. That is an additional cost since the armor guy could use his for a cooler weapon or other item.

[MaxWilson]

Mage Armor is awesome on a Moon Druid. You'll get 20% to 25%(ish) more mileage out of the Moon Druid's temp HP if he is Mage Armored. Up to 68% more if you can impose disadvantage on enemies via shenigans like Giant Anaconda + Darkness.