Maneuvers and unarmed strikes

[Gamereaper]

Can you use a maneuver with an unarmed strike if you don't have improved unarmed strike or any improved unarmed damage? If you can is it considered lethal or nonlethal damage?

[Charizander]

Can you use a maneuver with an unarmed strike if you don't have improved unarmed strike or any improved unarmed damage? If you can is it considered lethal or nonlethal damage?You can use Improvedless unarmed strikes with maneuvers, but they're still limited by normal restrictions and penalties, including nonlethal damage and attacks of opportunity.

[Gamereaper]

So if I use Foehammer, Mountain Hammer, etc. It can still be used and the additional damage is considered nonlethal?

I don't care about attack of opportunities, I'm a Crusader. I can add that to my delayed damage pool.

[illyahr]

Yep. If you don't have IUS, all damage you do is nonlethal. Same with Sneak Attacking with an unarmed strike.

[Charizander]

So if I use Foehammer, Mountain Hammer, etc. It can still be used and the additional damage is considered nonlethal?You'll ignore hardness, but since objects are immune to nonlethal damage, you deal no damage (and yes, the additional damage is the same as the weapon that deals it). Same with the Concentration-checks-for-damage maneuvers; you deal no damage to objects with an unarmed strike unless you have Improved Unarmed Strike or some other way to deal lethal damage with it. (I imagine you might still deal damage to exceptionally fragile objects, such as eggshells, even with nonlethal damage -- that's a houserule, though.)


I don't care about attack of opportunities, I'm a Crusader. I can add that to my delayed damage pool.There are a few reasons why taking AoOs might be wanted on your part, such as the Karmic Strike maneuver. Provoke an AoO from someone else, and if the attack would hit you, use your AoO on their AoO to disarm or trip them. Add in things like Snap Kick and Improved Trip for more attack-juggling fun.

[Gamereaper]

I was actually asking more for creatures. I'm playing in a homebrew superhero group as a full 20 Crusader. We can't kill most people, so I was worried that my higher level maneuvers might accidentally kill certain people.

I'm playing the party's tank and secondary healer. My build is revolving around my pumped up CON for loads of HP and using Steadfast Determination and spending a feat for Action Before Thought. I figured the mountain hammer maneuvers and foehammer maneuver would compensate for not having superhuman strength. I'm not willing to add extra feats in for other things, so if I couldn't do tons of nonlethal, then I'd just take it as a loss.

In case anyone is curious, here are my feats.

HU: Endurance
01: Diehard
03: Steadfast Determination
06: Martial Study (Act Before Thought)
09: Extra Granted Maneuver
12: Unnatural Will
15: Adaptable Style
18: Shape Soulmeld (Rageclaws)

[illyahr]

Just add Merciful to your main weapon. It adds an extra +2d6 to your damage but all damage dealt is nonlethal. It's a +1 enchantment. Throw on Vicious to be hilareous. +4d6 damage, +1d6 to you, all nonlethal.

[Flickerdart]

Just add Merciful to your main weapon. It adds an extra +2d6 to your damage but all damage dealt is nonlethal. It's a +1 enchantment. Throw on Vicious to be hilareous. +4d6 damage, +1d6 to you, all nonlethal.

This seems like a bad idea for when you suddenly need to deal lethal damage, or strike objects, and fail.

[Troacctid]

This seems like a bad idea for when you suddenly need to deal lethal damage, or strike objects, and fail.

Not really. You can just toggle the enchantment off as a standard action.

[illyahr]

Not really. You can just toggle the enchantment off as a standard action.

^This. Merciful is like Flaming or Shock. You can toggle it on and off.

[Flickerdart]

Not really. You can just toggle the enchantment off as a standard action.
That's one standard action where a dragon might be gnawing on your face (whichever way you are toggling it).

[illyahr]

That's one standard action where a dragon might be gnawing on your face (whichever way you are toggling it).

And you're changing it in the middle of combat instead of before...why?

[Flickerdart]

And you're changing it in the middle of combat instead of before...why?
What a world it would be where you could always know there would be combat ahead of time.

[Gamereaper]

I suppose that is a good point. But what about switching it ON instead of switching it off? If I'm switching to nonlethal, then it might be more likely that the threat in question is less menacing and can afford to use that standard action.

But if I can just use my maneuvers and deal nonlethal with my fists, then I don't think that will be necessary in the first place.

[Charizander]

You could always take a -4 hit to your attack bonus to deal nonlethal damage, or you could take Improved Unarmed Strike through various means, including the fanged ring, a level of monk, or just the feat itself.

[Gamereaper]

You could always take a -4 hit to your attack bonus to deal nonlethal damage, or you could take Improved Unarmed Strike through various means, including the fanged ring, a level of monk, or just the feat itself.

I suppose I could do that, but I would still like to retain my bonuses to hit. Honestly, I don't want to change my build. I just wanted to know if my maneuvers would do nonlethal if I used my untrained fists, which they will. I also don't know if magical items are available or not.

Also, I might do the most nonlethal anyways since nobody else is familiar with maneuvers and nobody is super good at optimization, myself included. My build is probably pushing it already.

[Crake]

In case anyone is curious, here are my feats.

HU: Endurance
01: Diehard
03: Steadfast Determination
06: Martial Study (Act Before Thought)
09: Extra Granted Maneuver
12: Unnatural Will
15: Adaptable Style
18: Shape Soulmeld (Rageclaws)

Uh, are you starting at 20? If so, why do you have endurance and diehard at level 1? You know that crusaders get that for free, right? Instead of those feats, just pick up improved unarmed strike as a feat, it'll let you pick between lethal or nonlethal damage at your leisure, and avoid the attacks of opportunity.

[MisterKaws]

I suppose I could do that, but I would still like to retain my bonuses to hit. Honestly, I don't want to change my build. I just wanted to know if my maneuvers would do nonlethal if I used my untrained fists, which they will. I also don't know if magical items are available or not.

Also, I might do the most nonlethal anyways since nobody else is familiar with maneuvers and nobody is super good at optimization, myself included. My build is probably pushing it already.

Unarmed strike will take a -4 anyway for being untrained, just do a -4 to your normal weapon and spare yourself the trouble and all the AoOs.

[Fizban]

You can also carry a Sap, or ask your DM for bigger non-exotic non-lethal weapon. Otherwise yeah, just punch them in the face.

[Gamereaper]

Uh, are you starting at 20? If so, why do you have endurance and diehard at level 1? You know that crusaders get that for free, right? Instead of those feats, just pick up improved unarmed strike as a feat, it'll let you pick between lethal or nonlethal damage at your leisure, and avoid the attacks of opportunity.

No, we're starting at 1st level. This goes up to 20. I know I get it for free at 10th level, but that's NINE whole levels where I could need it instead. There will be people with very high STR scores and hitting 0 and going unconscious would suck.

I'm not really sure if I want to get anything else though. I suppose Unnatural Will can get swapped somehow, but I don't think it will be improved unarmed strike. Anything that would make me tougher. Not infinite HP loops or anything. I have a reasonably sane DM and I know he'll down it the moment he sees shenanigans. That's all I care about.


Unarmed strike will take a -4 anyway for being untrained, just do a -4 to your normal weapon and spare yourself the trouble and all the AoOs.

Ah yes, that is true. Good catch. Might as well. I suppose I was thinking more along the lines of "how to nonlethally bash someone over the head with my giant hammer". I forgot that it's RAW, haha.

Oh yeah, my character is based off of John Henry, so I figured he's not exactly the casty type. It's going to be a straight 20 Crusader to introduce everyone to Initiators. Not even the DM has much if at all any knowledge on them, so I need to make a good impression.

[Troacctid]

You'd get more effective HP by picking up damage reduction. For example, Shape Soulmeld (Astral Vambraces) gets you DR 2/magic, which will make you very hard to kill at low levels when combined with Martial Spirit and Crusader's Strike, and you can eventually take the Open Lesser Chakra (Arms) feat (or have your party's caster buff you with an Open Chakra spell) to upgrade it into something sweet.

[Gamereaper]

You'd get more effective HP by picking up damage reduction. For example, Shape Soulmeld (Astral Vambraces) gets you DR 2/magic, which will make you very hard to kill at low levels when combined with Martial Spirit and Crusader's Strike, and you can eventually take the Open Lesser Chakra (Arms) feat (or have your party's caster buff you with an Open Chakra spell) to upgrade it into something sweet.

This is in a homebrew superhero setting I am marginally familiar with, so I will get DR. I'm pumping my CON through the roof first so I have some staying power. I have Steadfast Determination so I have CON and CHA to Will. I also can get Action Before Thought which is tied to concentration and (you guessed it) CON.

I'm adding a little CHA boost to increase my Will saves even more since a superhuman boosted INT can easily get a +10 To the DCs of saves, so I need my saves high. An increase to intimidate and diplomacy skills would be nice so I can hopefully end most conflicts without fighting. After that, I'm definitely getting as much DR as I can.

[Fizban]

Unarmed strike will take a -4 anyway for being untrained, just do a -4 to your normal weapon and spare yourself the trouble and all the AoOs.

Ah yes, that is true. Good catch.
Wrong. Unarmed Strikes are at worst a Simple weapon. Some people find it amusing to point out Monks don't have proficiency in simple weapons, but I assure you that a Crusader is in fact proficient with his hands. Using the weapon for nonlethal is relevant regarding AoOs, but if you want accuracy then the unarmed strike wins.

[Gamereaper]

Wrong. Unarmed Strikes are at worst a Simple weapon. Some people find it amusing to point out Monks don't have proficiency in simple weapons, but I assure you that a Crusader is in fact proficient with his hands. Using the weapon for nonlethal is relevant regarding AoOs, but if you want accuracy then the unarmed strike wins.

Yeah, that does make sense now. So I will just eat an AoO and add to my Furious Counterstrike. Thanks.

Wait a minute, does that mean that Druids actually take a -4 penalty to using their fists? Which is a natural weapon?

[zergling.exe]

Yeah, that does make sense now. So I will just eat an AoO and add to my Furious Counterstrike. Thanks.

Wait a minute, does that mean that Druids actually take a -4 penalty to using their fists? Which is a natural weapon?

Druids are only proficient with the natural attacks of forms they assume with wild shape. So they wouldn't be proficient when not shaped, but might be when they are. I won't go into anything about whether unarmed strikes are simple weapons or natural weapons for proficiency.

[Psyren]

What a world it would be where you could always know there would be combat ahead of time.

Just leave it off until you need it; if you're fighting something where you can afford to use nonlethal, you can either take the extra time to turn it on, or accept the -4 to whack them with the flat.

[MisterKaws]

Wrong. Unarmed Strikes are at worst a Simple weapon. Some people find it amusing to point out Monks don't have proficiency in simple weapons, but I assure you that a Crusader is in fact proficient with his hands. Using the weapon for nonlethal is relevant regarding AoOs, but if you want accuracy then the unarmed strike wins.



Oh, just read the book again, it's the other way around with unarmed, they have to take a -4 only when dealing lethal damage, sorry for that. :smallbiggrin:

[Chronos]

I'd leave Merciful on all the time, actually, unless you specifically expect to be fighting undead or constructs which are immune to it. If you fight something you actually want to kill, well, you can just knock it out and then cut its throat. And while you don't always know exactly when the next fight is going to come, you can usually guess whether it's going to be against undead or not.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Wrong. Unarmed Strikes are at worst a Simple weapon. Some people find it amusing to point out Monks don't have proficiency in simple weapons, but I assure you that a Crusader is in fact proficient with his hands. Using the weapon for nonlethal is relevant regarding AoOs, but if you want accuracy then the unarmed strike wins.

I US let's you deal lethal damage and no longer provoke AoOs when you attack armed opponents. Without it each attack provokes (and provoking AoOs while making an AoO seems odd).

[Psyren]

I US let's you deal lethal damage and no longer provoke AoOs when you attack armed opponents. Without it each attack provokes (and provoking AoOs while making an AoO seems odd).

Without IUS, you generally don't threaten unarmed either, so taking AoOs that themselves provoke AoOs is usually not a problem.