Quick Check for Balance on Anti-Magic Swordsman Abilities

[Doctor Despair]

As a flavor for a swordsman that hunts mages, would a feat that allows the wielder of at least a +1 weapon attempt to deflect any spell requiring a touch attack (caster level check plus spell level versus defender attack roll) be too strong? What about if an addendum were added that, on a successful deflection, you could make a ranged touch attack at 1/2 your BAB to cast the spell back at the target?

As a separate feat or weapon enchantment, would it be balanced to allow a greater dispel magic check on an object or creature on a successful strike with the weapon, using the striker's BAB in place of the caster level?

Or are both of these underwhelming and I am just too tentative to be rude to mages? It's so hard to think about tools like this because, ultimately, they are either going to be immediately deadly (ie, too effective) or ultimately ineffective (more likely, I'd imagine, unless you're hunting the Postman).

Also, how did Roy's ability function in the comic again? Was it an AoO on casters within reach that would stop spells with somatic components? Is that too strong as well? I feel like that is essentially balanced by the +1 still spell, but I may be wrong.

[ManicOppressive]

A wizard who gets into touch range with a martial character is not generally a smart wizard. At that point the wizard has to cast defensively or just get AoO'd to oblivion for being the idiot to cast at melee range.

I wouldn't say the feat would be overpowered at all. Pretty situational at best.

From what I can tell of the Spellsplinter Maneuver (Roy's feat from the comic), it seems to allow the user to ignore defensive casting and AoO to interrupt the spell anyway. It could also be a strike that interrupts the spell requiring a readied action. Either way, anything that lets a martial character screw up a wizard at melee range is generally not going to be overpowered because the wizard has already failed by letting the fight take place at melee range.

The dispel magic thing is actually a pretty interesting idea, and I may steal it. You're on to something good there, I think.

[Necroticplague]

As a flavor for a swordsman that hunts mages, would a feat that allows the wielder of at least a +1 weapon attempt to deflect any spell requiring a touch attack (caster level check plus spell level versus defender attack roll) be too strong? What about if an addendum were added that, on a successful deflection, you could make a ranged touch attack at 1/2 your BAB to cast the spell back at the target?

As a separate feat or weapon enchantment, would it be balanced to allow a greater dispel magic check on an object or creature on a successful strike with the weapon, using the striker's BAB in place of the caster level?

Or are both of these underwhelming and I am just too tentative to be rude to mages? It's so hard to think about tools like this because, ultimately, they are either going to be immediately deadly (ie, too effective) or ultimately ineffective (more likely, I'd imagine, unless you're hunting the Postman).

Also, how did Roy's ability function in the comic again? Was it an AoO on casters within reach that would stop spells with somatic components? Is that too strong as well? I feel like that is essentially balanced by the +1 still spell, but I may be wrong.

1. Such a feat already exists for the first one. It's called Extraordinary Deflection. It sucks, like most Epic martial feats, but it should provide a decent grounds to start from. Considering that there's a spell that does that without any check (friendly fire) it seems fair.

2. Depends on usages per day, what type of dispel (Area-type 'check against highest' vs. targetted 'check against everything'), and it's cost. I should note that normally, weapon enchantments don't scale with any trait of the wielder's, so having something scale off of BaB is a bit odd.

3. I'm pretty sure Roy's ability was just the Mage Slayer feat. Makes it so that casters can't cast defensively when you threaten them (and thus always provoke AoO's for casting within your threatened range).

[Doctor Despair]

Dispelling Strike
Prerequisite: Spellcraft: 2 ranks, Weapon Focus, must have taken near-lethal damage from magic (brought to or below 0 HP by magical damage from a spell)
Benefit: On a successful melee attack with the weapon identified by weapon focus, you may attempt to dispel the magical effects on a target as of a targeted greater dispel magic. On such an attempt, the Dispelling Striker should roll for a normal targeted dispel magic attempt, substituting their BAB for their caster level and adding half of any ranks in Spellcraft they have, rounded up (1d20 + BAB + 1/2 Spellcraft). Upon failing such a check by 6 or more, the Striker becomes dazed for 1 round. A dispelling strike may be used once per day for every two HD the Striker has.

Uncanny Deflection
Prerequisite: Dispelling Strike, Dex 13, BAB +5
Benefit: Upon being target by a ranged touch attack while wielding a weapon you have taken weapon focus for, you may attempt to deflect the spell towards another target as of the friendly fire spell. To do so, the defender must make a successful attack roll using their normal attack; the DC for such a deflection attack is the caster's level plus the level of the spell. You must do this before knowing whether or not the spell would normally hit you. The defender may attempt to deflect such a spell that targets a creature within his normal reach at a -5 penalty. Upon a failure in either case, the target is struck regardless of whether or not the touch attack would normally have bypassed their AC.

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How do these look as feat-versions of these abilities? Too strong? Too weak? Not enough prereqs?

With this sort of character, spell resistance is a must, of course. Mage Slayer wouldn't be a bad bet, either. What other sorts of abilities would be ideal for this archetype of character?

[Glimbur]

Dispelling Strike
Prerequisite: Will 15, Weapon Focus, must have taken near-lethal damage from magic (brought to 0 HP by magical damage from a spell)
Benefit: On a successful melee attack with the weapon identified by weapon focus, you may attempt to dispel the magical effects on a target as of a targeted greater dispel magic. On such an attempt, the Dispelling Striker should use the result of their attack roll opposed to the result of a caster level check from the caster of the spell (1d20 + caster level). Upon failing such a check by 6 or more, the Striker becomes dazed for 1 round. A dispelling strike may only be attempted once in a round.

________________________________

How do these look as feat-versions of these abilities? Too strong? Too weak? Not enough prereqs?

With this sort of character, spell resistance is a must, of course. Mage Slayer wouldn't be a bad bet, either. What other sorts of abilities would be ideal for this archetype of character?

You probably don't mean to have Will 15 as a pre-requisite. Normally if saves are involved in qualifying for things it's base save, and +15 base is Epic level territory (or silly amounts of multiclassing). You might mean Wis 15, but that's a pretty tough hurdle for people who don't already need wisdom. You could get there with 10 Wis and a +6 item but that's not cheap. I might make it take ranks of spellcraft, which you'll need anyway for Mage Slayer et al.

[MisterKaws]

Dispelling Strike
Prerequisite: Will 15, Weapon Focus, must have taken near-lethal damage from magic (brought to 0 HP by magical damage from a spell)
Benefit: On a successful melee attack with the weapon identified by weapon focus, you may attempt to dispel the magical effects on a target as of a targeted greater dispel magic. On such an attempt, the Dispelling Striker should use the result of their attack roll opposed to the result of a caster level check from the caster of the spell (1d20 + caster level). Upon failing such a check by 6 or more, the Striker becomes dazed for 1 round. A dispelling strike may only be attempted once in a round.

Uncanny Deflection
Prerequisite: Dispelling Strike, Dex 13, BAB +5
Benefit: Upon being target by a ranged touch attack while wielding a weapon you have taken weapon focus for, you may attempt to deflect the spell towards another target as of the friendly fire spell. To do so, the defender must make a successful attack roll using their normal attack; the DC for such a deflection attack is the caster's level plus the level of the spell. You must do this before knowing whether or not the spell would normally hit you. The defender may attempt to deflect such a spell that targets a creature within his normal reach at a -5 penalty. Upon a failure in either case, the target is struck regardless of whether or not the touch attack would normally have bypassed their AC.

________________________________

How do these look as feat-versions of these abilities? Too strong? Too weak? Not enough prereqs?

With this sort of character, spell resistance is a must, of course. Mage Slayer wouldn't be a bad bet, either. What other sorts of abilities would be ideal for this archetype of character?

Don't tie greater dispel to an attack roll, just don't. Even a relatively bad-op fighter will have a +40~50 on his attack roll.
Use BAB for the normal dispel caster check, and targets don't have the right to roll, you just roll against the normal dispel DC.

[ryu]

Don't tie greater dispel to an attack roll, just don't. Even a relatively bad-op fighter will have a +40~50 on his attack roll.
Use BAB for the normal dispel caster check, and targets don't have the right to roll, you just roll against the normal dispel DC.

You say that like they don't need the help. Considering getting into position and using one attack is likely the poor guy's full turn if he even can, it's still not that bad even if it works.

This is assuming the caster doesn't use any of several simple strategies to not allow you to hit him in the first place.

[Doctor Despair]

Don't tie greater dispel to an attack roll, just don't. Even a relatively bad-op fighter will have a +40~50 on his attack roll.
Use BAB for the normal dispel caster check, and targets don't have the right to roll, you just roll against the normal dispel DC.

That's a fair point; truestrike would be silly in conjunction with it as well. I do think they need a slightly better edge than BAB versus caster level, only because of the numerous ways one can buff caster level though; perhaps BAB plus the enhancement bonus on the weapon?

Also, I enjoy the spellcraft requirement since it makes you choose between that and mage slayer at level three; not that it wasn't an option before, but the parallel just feels nice.

[ManicOppressive]

If you're going to give it a Spellcraft requirement anyway, why not just make it BAB + Spellcraft to dispel? It's one more variable than I usually like to include, but Spellcraft is already involved.

[MisterKaws]

You say that like they don't need the help. Considering getting into position and using one attack is likely the poor guy's full turn if he even can, it's still not that bad even if it works.

This is assuming the caster doesn't use any of several simple strategies to not allow you to hit him in the first place.

And then you get the duskling CN incarnate ubercharger.

[Doctor Despair]

If you're going to give it a Spellcraft requirement anyway, why not just make it BAB + Spellcraft to dispel? It's one more variable than I usually like to include, but Spellcraft is already involved.

That makes more sense than weapon enhancement, for sure. :) Although, come to think of it, it is very easy to pump skills; paying for a +30 ring of spellcraft to apply to the feat seems a little stronger than a +5 weapon.

Also, am I wrong in saying Drow is the best source of spell resistance, assuming LA buyoff? Mix it with Goliath for the strength mod and pay it off by level 20?

Edit: Ooooh, though the cleric SR spell seems enticing... Ironically, a DMM cleric might be the best antimagic person, haha. Though technically I spose becoming half-golem would do the trick as well, with 999 side effects.

[ManicOppressive]

It's easy to pump skills, but most martial classes are a) not going to have that much invested in skills and b) definitely not going to have many points in Spellcraft.

The one class that would make scary good use of something like this is Duskblade, but it fits so perfectly into the flavor of Duskblades that I wouldn't see that as a problem.

[ryu]

And then you get the duskling CN incarnate ubercharger.

And I'm fine with that? Uberchargers weren't very impressive to me to begin with. They get to kill one thing that isn't defending itself properly, if the terrain allows, and with additional investment towards making that one trick work. Adding one free spell with an above average check isn't going to make that significantly more threatening to a mage.

[MisterKaws]

That makes more sense than weapon enhancement, for sure. :) Although, come to think of it, it is very easy to pump skills; paying for a +30 ring of spellcraft to apply to the feat seems a little stronger than a +5 weapon.

Also, am I wrong in saying Drow is the best source of spell resistance, assuming LA buyoff? Mix it with Goliath for the strength mod and pay it off by level 20?

Edit: Ooooh, though the cleric SR spell seems enticing... Ironically, a DMM cleric might be the best antimagic person, haha. Though technically I spose becoming half-golem would do the trick as well, with 999 side effects.

Spellwarped is a +1LA template with 11+hd SR, better stats and Aberration type included for maximum cheese, and you even get a boost every time your SR activates, just like a spelleater.

[Doctor Despair]

Spellwarped is a +1LA template with 11+hd SR, better stats and Aberration type included for maximum cheese, and you even get a boost every time your SR activates, just like a spelleater.

The template I'm seeing is +3LA, though the boosts are nice compared to the other Drow abilities.

So if this character were to grab spell resistance, this disarming strike, and the answer to ranged touch attacks, is there any other magical means of attack short of summons that would be going unanswered? I'm not sure if there is anything to be done about the Dweomerkeeper's supernatural spells, but we're all aware that's a stupid powerful class, haha.

[MisterKaws]

The template I'm seeing is +3LA, though the boosts are nice compared to the other Drow abilities.

So if this character were to grab spell resistance, this disarming strike, and the answer to ranged touch attacks, is there any other magical means of attack short of summons that would be going unanswered? I'm not sure if there is anything to be done about the Dweomerkeeper's supernatural spells, but we're all aware that's a stupid powerful class, haha.

Oh, sorry, mistook LA for CR.

[Doctor Despair]

Oh, sorry, mistook LA for CR.

It's fine, haha. It gives better bonuses than Drow/Whatever anyway, so it might as well be for my purposes.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Both feats look fine to me. BAB opposing CL is a decent balance point, if a bit low- you're a lot more likely to have BAB<ECL than CL<ECL. I wouldn't add skill ranks in there anywhere, except maybe for a Knowledge Devotion type bonus.

[Triskavanski]

In Pathfinder there is a feat/rage power called Shatterspell/spell sunder that lets you sunder ongoing spell effects.

There are two feats in 3.5 that let you dispel AC/Concealment spells.

Pathfinder also has the better Anti-Ray feat called Smash from the Air that lets you counter out ray attacks and it is glorious.

[Doctor Despair]

Both feats look fine to me. BAB opposing CL is a decent balance point, if a bit low- you're a lot more likely to have BAB<ECL than CL<ECL. I wouldn't add skill ranks in there anywhere, except maybe for a Knowledge Devotion type bonus.

That's exactly it; I felt as though the BAB progression was a little weaker, and that the challenge of actually getting up to melee range with whatever you were trying to dispel and succeeding on an attack (essentially having to succeed on two rolls) should result in a small boost. Would it make more sense to add the intelligence bonus, or perhaps the strength bonus of the Striker to the check? Or to limit the bonus from Spellcraft to 1/2 the ranks in it, capped at +10?

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Edit:

Shatterspell seems extremely poor, though perhaps that's less so in Pathfinder since, I've heard, mages aren't as silly in that game.

As for Smash from the Air... it doesn't seem to work on magic projectiles like rays and orbs from what I'm reading, just arrows and the like. Or am I mistaken?

[Vhaidara]

As for Smash from the Air... it doesn't seem to work on magic projectiles like rays and orbs from what I'm reading, just arrows and the like. Or am I mistaken?

It's the next feat in the line, Cut from the Air (IIRC). That one works on spells.

[Triskavanski]

Smash from the Air is the second one in line of the tree, that works on ray spells and big projectiles. I don't know whats going on there.

[DeAnno]

Prerequisite: Dispelling Strike, Dex 13, BAB +5
Benefit: Upon being target by a ranged touch attack while wielding a weapon you have taken weapon focus for, you may attempt to deflect the spell towards another target as of the friendly fire spell. To do so, the defender must make a successful attack roll using their normal attack; the DC for such a deflection attack is the caster's level plus the level of the spell. You must do this before knowing whether or not the spell would normally hit you. The defender may attempt to deflect such a spell that targets a creature within his normal reach at a -5 penalty. Upon a failure in either case, the target is struck regardless of whether or not the touch attack would normally have bypassed their AC.

Some thoughts:

This should probably be an immediate action, since it's being used to negate another action having it be free is a bit much, action-econ wise.
Your failure shouldn't be able to cause an adjacent creature to be struck regardless of its AC. This could be used against the intent to help a spell strike an enemy creature normally too hard to hit.
I think that using an attack roll to oppose a weirdly scaling CL mechanism is probably wrong. It should be attack roll vs. attack roll, like Wall of Blades from Tome of Battle. That way any attack roll optimization available in setting cancels out on both sides. It's still to the disadvantage of most casters, but CL+SL was an absurdly easy AC to hit anyway (AC 2 at level 1 and AC 29 at level 20, really?).
A lot of the reflection and ally covering stuff is pretty expansive and awkward, and probably could stand to be in a different feat. Let's just keep the reflection.
Some Ranged Touch Attacks aren't spells.
Some wording and requirements are a bit awkward.


Uncanny Deflection
Prerequisite: Dispelling Strike, Weapon Focus, Dex 13, BAB +5
Benefit: Upon being targeted by a ranged touch attack while wielding a melee weapon for which you have the Weapon Focus Feat, you may attempt to deflect the attack with it as an immediate action. Make an attack roll with the weapon and use that roll to replace your Touch AC for this attack. If your attack roll exceeds the ranged touch attack roll by 10 or more, you may deflect the ranged touch attack back upon the sender using your attack roll instead of theirs.

Or you could just give them the Wall of Blades Maneuver (which can stop RTAs), if you didn't want to deal with more possibly unbalanced homebrew than necessary.

[Doctor Despair]

...Or you could just give them the Wall of Blades Maneuver (which can stop RTAs), if you didn't want to deal with more possibly unbalanced homebrew than necessary.

I didn't realize there was a maneuver like that. That seems like everything I was trying to do with that feat, haha. I suppose if we're going Warblade here we could also go into the Stance of Alacrity to get an extra immediate to deal with quickened spells.

So with the Warblade, Alacrity we can deal with things that are not timestop/celerity shenanigans. Split ray is the only issue here, but even so we'll have cut their damage severalfold here, and that's assuming they are even using rays, and that is assuming their ray bypasses the magehunter's SR.

On that note, we have SR of 11 + HD, which means that there should be ~50% miss chance unless they dip into a lot of spell penetration, which means they aren't taking other actions as often. I feel that this is currently our only answer to timestop/celerity shenanigans: hoping the spells they stack up don't hit us.

Of course, there are summons, to which we can attempt a Dispelling Strike to send it home. Likewise for a mage using astral projection et. all -- we won't kill the mage, but we can at least dispel his current vestige.

Thusfar, the main concern here seems to have been very reactive planning. Granted, it's difficult to not be on the defensive against a mage, but at least now we have some sort of answer to everything that isn't a Dweomerkeeper, assuming we can get an item of mind blank at some point. In terms of going on the offensive, there's always the good old truestrike/truesight to make sure we can hit them, and if we can get adjacent to them magekiller would be helpful, but there are still quickened spells.

I think this character needs to somehow get access to some sort of Dimensional Anchor effect, which is awkward because it is not shaping up to be a caster thus far. Do you have any suggestions on the matter? I know there's some sort of masterwork thing you can do to put a wand in a sword, which is an option if this character can somehow get UMD, but that feels inelegant.

EDIT:

Getting a rod of Dimension Lock seems like the most efficient method, though it's hardly cost effective; the next best thing I could find was the Binding weapon enhancement, which is only once a day AND requires a successful hit.

So the mage can't throw touch attacks well, can't hit with things subject to SR well, can't cast defensively, and if they have big buffs, there's a dispelling strike for that. Honestly, the dispelling strike sounds more and more like a maneuver anyway. In terms of teleporting away, there's the dimensional lock method. That just leaves one big question: how do we even close in on a mage like that if they're playing at all intelligently?

Barring another method, I suppose some short-range teleport coupled with the binding enhancement on the weapon would work, though again, that is only once/day and assumes the mage has not taken precautions like Anticipate Teleport...

EDIT 2:

So I just saw White Raven Tactics and I can see why that's nice. Free Celerity? Yes please. On that note, shenanigans: we need to be able to see the wizard, of course. So then we can launch a surprise round, run, use WRT, charge (essentially moving 6 times our normal movement) and... hope the binding weapon enhancement works? Is there a maneuver to prevent teleportation?

Spellsword would work if we could get access to Dimension Anchor, though that warblade/spellsword cross classing could be awkward potentially.

Edit 3:

Discovered that WRT doesn't work on self, which makes me sad, but there are other ways to get free move actions (amulet of travel devotion, belt of battle, etc). No need to break action economy over its face anyway.

So Warblade 8 is decent, but that's awkward because, with that, you won't be able to dimensional-anchor anyone using Duskblade until level 21.

If we stuff a wand into the sword and UMD, hoping 20 BAB is enough for the ranged touch attack from the sword, but that's a standard action, which is awkward. Not sure how to get around that standard action.

With item familiar, if we get 4th level spells, we can have the item familiar cast it -- but then the item familiar doesn't have our BAB, so will it be able to successfully cast Dimensional Anchor? Hard to say. Besides, this has the same issue that we have to find fourth level spell casting for this.

None the less...

So we can move up to five foot range hopefully, somehow, and cast dimension anchor -- at which point we have decent spell resistance if they target us, and if it bypasses spell resistance, we can deflect the first touch attack. If they leave or attempt to cast a spell, we get an attack of opportunity -- though that doesn't help with quickened spells, but at least none of them can be teleportation. What other abilities would be good here?

Actually, this has progressed beyond the original scope of the thread. I'll make a different optimization one.