Grappling and Weapons

[GilesTheCleric]

Two questions. 1) Which weapons in PF are best for grappling? Yes, there's weapons with the "grapple" property, but it seems like a lot of weapons on the PFSRD have additional abilities that aren't always listed with a "see text" tag. I'm looking for two types of weapons, ones that work with 3.5's improved grab (deal damage with whatever you hit with) and without it.

2) The grapple rules say "Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll." Does that apply to everyone in the grapple?

Update: Apparently grapple isn't going to work without huge investment. See new thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472742-3-P-What-is-there-to-do-in-combat) for trying to figure out what else there is I could do.

[Florian]

2) The grapple rules say "Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll." Does that apply to everyone in the grapple?

This refers to CMB, not CMD, so always the instigator/attacker.

[Psyren]

If you have extra hands or Grabbing Style, a dan bong gives you an untyped bonus to your check. You need those things because by RAW, you would otherwise take a penalty for not having two hands free, which is unfortunately silly.

Actually grappling with a weapon in PF is very hard though. Your main options are natural weapons, like a bite, tentacle or claw that has the Grab ability - this will get you any bonuses with that weapon, e.g. enhancement bonuses or weapon focus, to your check. A Tetori monk can also gain the grab ability with their unarmed strike, one of the reasons they're so good at it. Another option is a whip, in conjunction with Greater Whip Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-whip-mastery-combat).

[GilesTheCleric]

If you have extra hands or Grabbing Style, a dan bong gives you an untyped bonus to your check. You need those things because by RAW, you would otherwise take a penalty for not having two hands free, which is unfortunately silly.Dan bong looks like what I'm looking for, thank you.


Actually grappling with a weapon in PF is very hard though. Your main options are natural weapons, like a bite, tentacle or claw that has the Grab ability - this will get you any bonuses with that weapon, e.g. enhancement bonuses or weapon focus, to your check. A Tetori monk can also gain the grab ability with their unarmed strike, one of the reasons they're so good at it. Another option is a whip, in conjunction with Greater Whip Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-whip-mastery-combat).

Yes, that has been my problem. I had a 3.5 Ranger 8 build with 3.5's improved grab, but as I read the PF grapple rules, I realized grappling was even worse than I thought. At this point I've given up on trying to do it and am looking at something else to do in combat. Thank you for the great advice regardless! I still want to make a grappling build at some point, so I'll use it then.

[Florian]

Yes, that has been my problem. I had a 3.5 Ranger 8 build with 3.5's improved grab, but as I read the PF grapple rules, I realized grappling was even worse than I thought. At this point I've given up on trying to do it and am looking at something else to do in combat. Thank you for the great advice regardless! I still want to make a grappling build at some point, so I'll use it then.

If you want to try a grappling-focused build, I´d actually start with the (Un)Monk for that.

[GilesTheCleric]

If you want to try a grappling-focused build, I´d actually start with the (Un)Monk for that.

The rules of the campaign restrict us to T3-4 classes only, and there's no magic items available to make up for poor base classes. Ergo, I'm going (wildshape bear totem) mystic ranger. Next time I'll definitely use unmonk or druid or something.

Edit: previous thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472359-PF-Ranger-Gear), in case you're curious.

[Florian]

The rules of the campaign restrict us to T3-4 classes only, and there's no magic items available to make up for poor base classes. Ergo, I'm going (wildshape bear totem) mystic ranger. Next time I'll definitely use unmonk or druid or something.

Edit: previous thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472359-PF-Ranger-Gear), in case you're curious.

The Unchained Monk has sliiiiiiightly changed from the original base class. It´s actually quite a brutal and versatile class right now, including being not MAD anymore.

[GilesTheCleric]

The Unchained Monk has sliiiiiiightly changed from the original base class. It´s actually quite a brutal and versatile class right now, including being not MAD anymore.

Ah, good to know. I had heard that unclasses were better than the base in most cases (iirc rogue is still bad?), but I don't know anything about PF so I couldn't confirm. If that's the case, I'm glad to hear that monk is finally getting nice things. However, I'm guessing it's still a combat-only class? If that's the case, I still would rather not use it in this campaign -- I'm expecting a lot of social interaction, exploration, politics, and general non-combat. Mystic Ranger (or 3.5 bard, which was my second choice) handles okay both in and out of combat.

[Florian]

Ah, good to know. I had heard that unclasses were better than the base in most cases (iirc rogue is still bad?), but I don't know anything about PF so I couldn't confirm. If that's the case, I'm glad to hear that monk is finally getting nice things. However, I'm guessing it's still a combat-only class? If that's the case, I still would rather not use it in this campaign -- I'm expecting a lot of social interaction, exploration, politics, and general non-combat. Mystic Ranger (or 3.5 bard, which was my second choice) handles okay both in and out of combat.

Actually, you can configure your monk now.
The base chassis is Full BAB, d10 HD, Good Fort and Ref save. Flurry is now simply more attacks at an full attack, not replicating TWF anymore.
At every even level, you can pick a Ki Power, one of which is Qi Gong that let´s you pick up SLAs from a quite good list.

[GilesTheCleric]

Actually, you can configure your monk now.
The base chassis is Full BAB, d10 HD, Good Fort and Ref save. Flurry is now simply more attacks at an full attack, not replicating TWF anymore.
At every even level, you can pick a Ki Power, one of which is Qi Gong that let´s you pick up SLAs from a quite good list.

Non-combat SLAs?

[Florian]

Non-combat SLAs?

Mostly mobility or exploration stuff.

[Sacrieur]

Black Tentacles

;____;

[GilesTheCleric]

Mostly mobility or exploration stuff.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/qinggong-monk is what you're talking about? And, if I understand it correctly, I can replace the monk's class abilities at 4, 5 and 7 (E8 game) and instead pick out things from the 4th (@4 and 5) and 6th (@7) level lists? So, that gets me access to 3 SLAs, probably one of Augury, Message, Gaseous Form, or Remove Disease.

That's so much better than a regular monk! I think I'll stick with 3.5's 1-4 SL wizard list for this game, though; as great those SLAs are, I get a better set of picks from wiz and still have full BAB from ranger. If I wanted to give up my first favored enemy, I could even get cha to saves, too (not happening since my build is already quite MAD).

Black Tentacles

;____;

I don't see that on the list. Is there a way to access that from unmonk?

[Florian]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/qinggong-monk is what you're talking about? And, if I understand it correctly, I can replace the monk's class abilities at 4, 5 and 7 (E8 game) and instead pick out things from the 4th (@4 and 5) and 6th (@7) level lists? So, that gets me access to 3 SLAs, probably one of Augury, Message, Gaseous Form, or Remove Disease.

That's so much better than a regular monk! I think I'll stick with 3.5's 1-4 SL wizard list for this game, though; as great those SLAs are, I get a better set of picks from wiz and still have full BAB from ranger. If I wanted to give up my first favored enemy, I could even get cha to saves, too (not happening since my build is already quite MAD).

That´s the old Qinggong archetype for the old Monk core class. In itself, that has become completely obsolete due to the Unchained Monk with the only thing staying intact being the list of Ki Powers.

This is the entry for the Unchained Monk: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/monk-unchained

Scroll down a bit and you´ll find three things:
- You can select a new Ki Power every even level
- Under Ki Powers, you´ll find "Qinggong Power", granting you access to the expanded Ki Powers of the old archetype
- Starting at 5th, you gain access to the list of Style Strikes and can use one of them every round.

[Psyren]

The rules of the campaign restrict us to T3-4 classes only, and there's no magic items available to make up for poor base classes. Ergo, I'm going (wildshape bear totem) mystic ranger. Next time I'll definitely use unmonk or druid or something.

Edit: previous thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472359-PF-Ranger-Gear), in case you're curious.

uMonk is a solid T4, able to hold its own in a fight like a Barbarian but without much utility beyond that. Yes, there are ki powers that let you do things like bypass obstacles, buff allies, and see the future, but you get so few of them (and no way to get more, not even via feats), that in practice you just won't have room to pick up any of the more niche ones.

I also don't recommend it for grappling - stick with Tetori for that.

[dramatic flare]

(iirc rogue is still bad?)

Debatable. While the UnBarbarian is faster to play and less math heavy than the previous one, the UnSummoner nerfed into line (which... was probabaly needed), and the UnMonk made flexible and otherwise fixed, the UnRogue is simply a straight (if in some ways small) upgrade, so those who already hate the rogue won't be too impressed by the changes.

[Florian]

@Psyren:

Let´s wait and see. Up until now, there´s next to no support for the Unchained classes, so not even the usual stuff like "Extra Ki Power" or some such things. I guess we´ll find out in roughly half a year how that will change then.

@dramatic flare:

I´d say the UnRogue has simply been brought to a point. The automatic Skill Unlocks make the UnRogue (again) the skill monkey for the party and his straight combat abilities, especially Debilitating Injury, are doing pretty well.

[Tuvarkz]

Is 3rd party content allowed? The Fiendbound Marauder Warder makes for a pretty nasty grappler, his weapon (Fiend's Grip) threatening both 5-10 feet, and having both the grab and grapple properties to boot, plus adding Intelligence to CMB-as well as gaining Ghost Touch for free for incorporeal enemy grappling purposes.

[GilesTheCleric]

That´s the old Qinggong archetype for the old Monk core class. In itself, that has become completely obsolete due to the Unchained Monk with the only thing staying intact being the list of Ki Powers.

This is the entry for the Unchained Monk: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/monk-unchained

Scroll down a bit and you´ll find three things:
- You can select a new Ki Power every even level
- Under Ki Powers, you´ll find "Qinggong Power", granting you access to the expanded Ki Powers of the old archetype
- Starting at 5th, you gain access to the list of Style Strikes and can use one of them every round.

Ah, okay, thank you. My lack of familiarity with PF means that it's difficult for me to tell what's what on that site (I'm still trying to wrap my head around favored class bonuses and subraces-that-aren't-subraces; I have no idea how archetypes work or if I can use them on my 3.5 class). It looks like they changed the level restrictions on abilities, which is nice, so I can now pick two from: Dimension Door, Neutralize Poison, Etherealness, Jump, Ring of Sustenance, Divination, Fly, and anything from the other list. Monk really got some love in unchained, it seems.


uMonk is a solid T4, able to hold its own in a fight like a Barbarian but without much utility beyond that. Yes, there are ki powers that let you do things like bypass obstacles, buff allies, and see the future, but you get so few of them (and no way to get more, not even via feats), that in practice you just won't have room to pick up any of the more niche ones.

I also don't recommend it for grappling - stick with Tetori for that.

Can you not optimize any class to grapple in PF? It seemed more difficult to do just looking at weapons, but I never went through feats or whatever other subsystems PF has added to see how feasible it was after seeing that it's -6 to -8 worse in PF over 3.5 (not to mention that foes will also have more consistent opposed checks). I'll trust your expertise.


Is 3rd party content allowed? The Fiendbound Marauder Warder makes for a pretty nasty grappler, his weapon (Fiend's Grip) threatening both 5-10 feet, and having both the grab and grapple properties to boot, plus adding Intelligence to CMB-as well as gaining Ghost Touch for free for incorporeal enemy grappling purposes.

DSP is allowed, and I think my GM is open to other high-quality 3rd party content. Int to CMB sounds great for my ranger! Is that a prestige class, and does it progress casting? I get a single 4th level spell on my build (polymorph will be the go-to), so it's really precious. Ghost touch is also quite handy since I won't be able to buy MIC's Ghost Shroud.

[Tuvarkz]

It's an archetype for the Warder base class from DSP's Path of War, in the expanded playtest:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tbBIinA90VQW8eriM0TZTZCbHsSU6cdv7_44J8w564s/edit
To note, you'll only need a single level to get the Fiend's Grip, but four to add Int to CMB, and five for it to gain Ghost Touch. Also, since you need a gauntlet (spiked one works too) to manifest the power, not sure whether it'll work alongside polymorph if you intend to cast it on yourself.

[GilesTheCleric]

It's an archetype for the Warder base class from DSP's Path of War, in the expanded playtest:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tbBIinA90VQW8eriM0TZTZCbHsSU6cdv7_44J8w564s/edit
To note, you'll only need a single level to get the Fiend's Grip, but four to add Int to CMB, and five for it to gain Ghost Touch. Also, since you need a gauntlet (spiked one works too) to manifest the power, not sure whether it'll work alongside polymorph if you intend to cast it on yourself.

Ach, that's a deal-breaker for the current build. However, the campaign is still months off and a lot can change in that time, so I'll earmark Tetori Monk and Fiendbound Marauder Warder for backup builds (along with 3.5 Bard and Dread Necro). I'm sorry that I haven't given a ton of info about the campaign all up front, but in this game it sounds like we'll frequently be solo agents, so I'll need a lot of personal power and flexibility (ie the top of T3). Thus, I've gone with mystic ranger so that I have flexibility (wizard spells) in the sociopolitical environment, and don't suck (full BAB, wildshape) in combat.

Unrelated, "Fiend's Grip" makes me snicker. If I go with the Warder, I'll have to name him Bane and wear all purple.

[Florian]

Ah, okay, thank you. My lack of familiarity with PF means that it's difficult for me to tell what's what on that site (I'm still trying to wrap my head around favored class bonuses and subraces-that-aren't-subraces; I have no idea how archetypes work or if I can use them on my 3.5 class). It looks like they changed the level restrictions on abilities, which is nice, so I can now pick two from: Dimension Door, Neutralize Poison, Etherealness, Jump, Ring of Sustenance, Divination, Fly, and anything from the other list. Monk really got some love in unchained, it seems.

Archetypes are actually pretty simple and work a bit like a template:
You take a core class and apply the archetype to it whole cloth, thereby modifying the whole core class in one step. If you´ve ever played old AD&D 2nd, then you´ll know what a "kit" is. Both, Kit and Archetype, work the same way.

There´re cases where different archetypes replace or modify different parts of an class, then it is even possible to apply two or more archetypes at the same time.

Example - Fighter: Archetype A replaces the whole Armor Mastery line, Archetype B replaces the whole Weapon Mastery line, Archetype C replaces the whole Bravery line. You could apply all three.

Note the "Whole Cloth" part: Once an archetype is chosen, it is applied to all levels of the core class.




Can you not optimize any class to grapple in PF? It seemed more difficult to do just looking at weapons, but I never went through feats or whatever other subsystems PF has added to see how feasible it was after seeing that it's -6 to -8 worse in PF over 3.5 (not to mention that foes will also have more consistent opposed checks). I'll trust your expertise.

You can work on it and optimize it a bit, but it´ll stay a chore, even with the more simplified system.

First, you need a rather high CMB score. This is based on BAB plus STR (Plus Size). If your build is not based on STR, you´ll need to invest in a feat that lets you switch the necessary stat.
Second, the CMD favors the defender, as it is 10 plus STR plus DEX (Plus Size). You´ll need brutal ability scores, boni from feats and/or scaling class features to keep competitive here.
Third is avoiding the AoO for attempting it. That means at least entering the Improved Grapple feat line at one point, having Unarmed Strike as a prereq and also considering the Grappling Style feat chain.

Personally, if I wanted to do grappling as a main feature, either Tetori Monk archetype or on a Barbarian outfitted with the caster-killer rage powers.

[Psyren]

@Psyren:

Let´s wait and see. Up until now, there´s next to no support for the Unchained classes, so not even the usual stuff like "Extra Ki Power" or some such things. I guess we´ll find out in roughly half a year how that will change then.

That's what I mean - it may get more support in the future. but as it stands right now there are much better choices (at least for grappling.)


Can you not optimize any class to grapple in PF? It seemed more difficult to do just looking at weapons, but I never went through feats or whatever other subsystems PF has added to see how feasible it was after seeing that it's -6 to -8 worse in PF over 3.5 (not to mention that foes will also have more consistent opposed checks). I'll trust your expertise.

You can optimize the grapple check but if you want that to be your focus you're just better off with Tetori. Many of the feats you need are available to it earlier and without cutting into their normal feat allotment, plus they can stop things like teleporting and shapeshifting out. I'm not saying you can't make a competent uMonk grappler - hell, you could probably do it with a fighter - but grappling with one just doesn't play to the uMonk's strengths. No uFlurry, no Style Strikes, few to none of the ki powers are geared at grappling, none of the archetypes are, your BAB isn't any higher for grappling purposes etc. etc.

[GilesTheCleric]

You can optimize the grapple check but if you want that to be your focus you're just better off with Tetori. Many of the feats you need are available to it earlier and without cutting into their normal feat allotment, plus they can stop things like teleporting and shapeshifting out. I'm not saying you can't make a competent uMonk grappler - hell, you could probably do it with a fighter - but grappling with one just doesn't play to the uMonk's strengths. No uFlurry, no Style Strikes, few to none of the ki powers are geared at grappling, none of the archetypes are, your BAB isn't any higher for grappling purposes etc. etc.

But trying to optimize my mystic ranger who only has ~three feats (and no magic items) available to do it with, tops, isn't even as feasible as unmonk, you're saying. Does grappling really play to anyone's strengths in most D20 games? I feel like it has never been a very viable combat style without it being a one-trick pony. I guess that PF at least allows it to trip and do other CMB things, which is better than 3.5.

[Psyren]

But trying to optimize my mystic ranger who only has ~three feats (and no magic items) available to do it with, tops, isn't even as feasible as unmonk, you're saying.

I didn't say anything about a mystic ranger, nor would I know the first thing about making one into a competent grappler (in either system.)


Does grappling really play to anyone's strengths in most D20 games?

Yes - monsters, and by extension, those classes that are good at becoming monsters (e.g. druids.)

[GilesTheCleric]

I didn't say anything about a mystic ranger, nor would I know the first thing about making one into a competent grappler (in either system.)Sorry, I meant to extend what I understood as your message to my particular situation.


Yes - monsters, and by extension, those classes that are good at becoming monsters (e.g. druids.)That's the rub with Mystic Ranger -- I get wildshape at 5, but I need really good grappling before 5 more than I do after 5 (since after 5 I have access to the wizard list).

[Captain Morgan]

Grappling is tricky in Pathfinder. However, if you are dealing with mostly humanoid opponents, it can actually be really devastating. That's because CMD math in PF is borked in favor of larger and larger enemies. To have any chance of hitting those things with combat maneuvers you need a ridiculously high CMB, which a few things can achieve. Once you are there though, the humanoid enemies pretty much become auto-success.

If all you want is a high CMB, lots of things can do that. Lore Warden, Brawler, several flavors of Monk. There are several archetypes which offer additional boons to avoid the pitfalls of grappling, like lowering your AC while holding someone down. Check this one out:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/paizo---barbarian-archetypes/brutal-pugilist

A Barbarian with that, the Animal Fury and Raging Grappler Rage Powers, the Improved and Greater Grapple feats, and armor spikes can do what's essentially 5 attacks worth of damage at level 7, while knocking the enemy prone, as their equivalent to a full attack action. Rapid Grappler adds another 3 hits worth of damage at level 9. That's bonkers, and sometimes easier to land than a normal full attack. Beyond that you can just go for normal Barbarian stuff.

I highly recommend Brawler armor with Armor Spikes. The Brawling enchantment is a cheap +2 to unarmed strikes and grapple, and the armor spikes is amazing free bonus damage.

Also, the Steel Commando Warder makes a great Luchador. You'll have the Charisma to be a face, and Steel Serpent has stances which provide insane stealth bonuses and constrict for an extra 4d6+STR damage to each grapple check.

[Florian]

But trying to optimize my mystic ranger who only has ~three feats (and no magic items) available to do it with, tops, isn't even as feasible as unmonk, you're saying. Does grappling really play to anyone's strengths in most D20 games? I feel like it has never been a very viable combat style without it being a one-trick pony. I guess that PF at least allows it to trip and do other CMB things, which is better than 3.5.

Grappling can be made pretty deadly on the right builds. For example, Concentration checks in PF are harder than in 3.5, and some classes/builds, like Fighter or Barbarian can push that to the point that a caster won´t be able to make that check. Ever. Add features that allow more brutal damage against casters or critters with SLAs and you should see the appeal of grappling.
Now it´s not too hard at all to get some Natural Attacks on one of these classes: Your Barbarian will mostly want to go Beast Totem for the Pounce, thereby acquiring Claws, Mutagen Warrior for the feral mutagen is not too uncommon for fighters, and so on.
That more or less will come down to this: You see the caster, you charge the caster, you kill the caster. End of story.

Now Monks have it easy as they get all the necessary stuff thrown at them as bonus feats.

As for your Ranger, you can either swallow the bitter pill and get all the feats or you leave it.
At that point, you should think about dipping Brawler for free Unarmed Strike and Martial Flexibility, then upgrade that be taking Extra Martial Flexibility as a feat.
You now could pick feats like Improved Grapple on the fly whenever you feel you need them. That´s not too bad because your Mystic Ranger should have access to Enlarge Person.

[Tuvarkz]

Grappling can be made pretty deadly on the right builds. For example, Concentration checks in PF are harder than in 3.5, and some classes/builds, like Fighter or Barbarian can push that to the point that a caster won´t be able to make that check. Ever. Add features that allow more brutal damage against casters or critters with SLAs and you should see the appeal of grappling.
Now it´s not too hard at all to get some Natural Attacks on one of these classes: Your Barbarian will mostly want to go Beast Totem for the Pounce, thereby acquiring Claws, Mutagen Warrior for the feral mutagen is not too uncommon for fighters, and so on.
That more or less will come down to this: You see the caster, you charge the caster, you kill the caster. End of story.

Now Monks have it easy as they get all the necessary stuff thrown at them as bonus feats.

As for your Ranger, you can either swallow the bitter pill and get all the feats or you leave it.
At that point, you should think about dipping Brawler for free Unarmed Strike and Martial Flexibility, then upgrade that be taking Extra Martial Flexibility as a feat.
You now could pick feats like Improved Grapple on the fly whenever you feel you need them. That´s not too bad because your Mystic Ranger should have access to Enlarge Person.

Grappling can be completely negated by freedom of movement, though.

[Florian]

Grappling can be completely negated by freedom of movement, though.

Anything can always be beaten or negated by another thing. Always.
If the game reaches the point when all enemies always have all the defenses up, no matter their personality, background, motivation and expectation, I´d actually take the Bestiaries and whack the gm around a bit with them, as the game has reached a pure meta level.

[GilesTheCleric]

If all you want is a high CMB, lots of things can do that. That's the trick -- I have full BAB from mystic ranger, but I also have wizard spells. I do need more than just a high CMB, since this game is not 100% combat (and having no options for things to do out of combat is boring).


The Brawling enchantment is a cheap +2 to unarmed strikes and grappleI'm actually not going to be able to get that -- in this campaign setting, there's no magic items.


As for your Ranger, you can either swallow the bitter pill and get all the feats or you leave it.
At that point, you should think about dipping Brawler for free Unarmed Strike and Martial Flexibility, then upgrade that be taking Extra Martial Flexibility as a feat.
You now could pick feats like Improved Grapple on the fly whenever you feel you need them. That´s not too bad because your Mystic Ranger should have access to Enlarge Person. I've realized that trying to staple grappling onto the ranger as it is just isn't going to work. Enlarge Person only gets me a +1 to the check (large vs medium), or a +2 if I use Hidden Talent: Expansion (huge vs medium). Jotunbrud doesn't stack with either of those, so it's unlikely I'll be able to get beyond huge. And, even if I do turn into a huge creature, that +2 only makes up for the lost +2 from PF improved grapple over 3.5 improved grapple. Grappling as an effective tactic will require playing some other class entirely, a class that doesn't have any out-of-combat options.


Grappling can be completely negated by freedom of movement, though.

This campaign setting is low-magic, so I don't anticipate many enemy casters.

Re: swallowing the bitter pill: I did start a new thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472742-3-P-What-is-there-to-do-in-combat) to figure out what other medicine I should be using.