OOTS #1016 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Ruck]

Nice to see my suspicions the orb would be used to travel back to Dwarven lands confirmed.

Also great to see an update so soon. Wasn't expecting that. Lucked out I was on Twitter when the Giant posted it!

[CoffeeIncluded]

So...now it's going to be a mad race to the dwarven lands? Or would this break the rules of the vote? Nice to see everything coming together though!

Also the snacks comment is hilarious.

[Theris]

Wait, I thought if Durkon left the Godsmoot he would nullify Hel's vote. How is he supposed to escape ?

[Guancyto]

Guess Roy is going to have to escape without passing through the arches too, somehow...

[Blisstake]

I thought the secret plan with the teleport orb would take, like, 20 more strips for us to figure out :smalltongue:

Edit: The guy's name switches between Dvalin and Davlin.

[ArkenBrony]

Wow, this is fantastic

[UrielAwakened]

Prediction:

Belkar ends up saving the dwarves and dying in the process since Roy can't leave to do it and everyone else is MIA.

[Spoomeister]

Funky twist, and assuming it works as HPoH wants, here comes that Destruction of the Dwarven Lands that was foretold so long ago. I wonder if V can teleport them there in time to race and stop them... or if Roy and company will find a way to prevent HPoH from getting away.

Might be a tad inconvenient timing if Belkar gets in trouble just outside the temple and Roy isn't allowed to leave to save him...

(I'm also amused that I was here just in time to see the placeholder link for 1016 was present, but for about a minute it pointed to a copy of 1015 instead. Refresh-refresh-refresh and boom. I don't think I could get here any more exactly-on-time for new comic than that.)

[Chromascope3D]

Looks like it's death by bureaucracy. :smalltongue:

[GAAD]

Indeed. Such timing. Much comedy. Exposition amazing!

Also: "I bring snacks"? I'm pretty sure you need a bit more than "snacks" for food for two days.

[Gnoman]

Okay, this doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. "Gontor" is not an official member of the Moot, and thus should not be bound under the same protection as the High Priest Of Hel, so there should not only be nothing to prevent the "no" gods' priests from blasting him, but nothing to compel the "yes" gods' priests to aid him, particularly since he just announced to everyone that they intend to cheat. The only way I can see it working is if "Gontor" is still a thrall and attacking him would be an assault on the High Priest Of Hel's property, but that seems a bit iffy (and an exploitable loophole that probably would have come up before). It will almost certainly fit together when all is said and done, but I don't see how with the knowledge we currently have.

[Smolder]

"I bring snacks now, just in case"

That's exactly what I would do, right down to the sandwich in the ziplock baggie. I hope he brought enough to share...

[Giggling Ghast]

And that's why the clerics won't be able to help against Xykon.

GODDAMN DWARVEN OATHS!

[Gift Jeraff]

Durkon being allowed to escape because he technically won't pass through the arches would be pretty lame. Maybe he'll pass the title of high priest onto his spawn so he can go to Dwarven Lands? And since Roy's formal role was technically Durkon's bodyguard, the switch to Gontor would mean A) Roy can't attack Gontor since he is not his bodyguard, and B) Roy can leave.

[Gwachitallemall]

Very interesting. I wonder what Roy will do next.

[Ivrytwr]

Okay, now I will just sit here patiently, hitting refresh on my browser.
Thanks Giant.

[SaintRidley]

Wait, I thought if Durkon left the Godsmoot he would nullify Hel's vote. How is he supposed to escape ?

"No attendee shall pass through this hall's arches." Loophole.

Also, the moot's on pause until it comes back via unpause.

[Liberivore]

Roy doesn't have a vote therefore he can leave anytime he wants. Same for all the bodyguards and the creed of Stone.

I'm not sure how Durkula intends on keeping his vote standing if he leaves. Perhaps delegate his authority as high priest.

V can't teleport so the bad guys will have a headstart. The "I told you so" from Mechane's crew is going to be harsh.

Got to hand it to the Giant: 0% chance of anyone predicting that and yet it makes complete sense.

[DaOldeWolf]

Why I am not surprised the dwarven god is like that?

So, did Roy hear what the vampires on his back were talking of?

[EmperorSarda]

Funky twist, and assuming it works as HPoH wants, here comes that Destruction of the Dwarven Lands that was foretold so long ago. I wonder if V can teleport them there in time to race and stop them... or if Roy and company will find a way to prevent HPoH from getting away.


V cannot cast teleport spells.

[oddtail]

Dominating a bunch of old (higher Wis), dwarven (Wis bonus I presume?), high-level (one would presume) folks will hopefully not be too easy. Then again, knowing dwarves in Oots-verse, they are all Fighters or something... [/can't resist analysing the plot from a game mechanic standpoint]

Overall though, good plot development. Seems logical, smart on the part of the villains, and makes me wonder what'll happen next. Not an earth-shaking development (yet), but a good story can't be built on "what a tweest!" every second, so I actually appreciate this development much more than I would something crazy and completely out of the left field.

Ah well. Back to lurking the forums.

[WItC]

I don't get it. Would a Dwarven god not know that the elders were dominated and thus not representing their own wishes and thoughts?

[a1chemi]

Okay, this doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. "Gontor" is not an official member of the Moot, and thus should not be bound under the same protection as the High Priest Of Hel, so there should not only be nothing to prevent the "no" gods' priests from blasting him, but nothing to compel the "yes" gods' priests to aid him, particularly since he just announced to everyone that they intend to cheat.

I don't think anyone was listening or noticed Gontor's arrival. Roy certainly didn't. He'll be gone before anyone has a chance to react.

Durkula's line was more of 4th wall thing I'd say.

[mouser9169]

How many ties can one vote have?

This is starting to look like a formal affair ;)

[Rift_Wolf]

The 'halls arches' loophole feels kinda weak. I'd expect a sequester to cover extra dimensional travel in a meeting with the head honchos of Godly power attending. The same as I wouldn't expect the Dwarven bigwigs to unanimously flub their will saves before 2+ vamps could be dusted.
I like the way Dvalin played it, though; straight down the middle, ensuring the cliffhanger remains presumably into 2016.

[EmperorSarda]

So I am guessing that the HPoH can leave and not nullify Hel's vote since the convocation is paused. Staying in the chambers is so the vote is not tampered with.

[Lord Stoneheart]

"No attendee shall pass through this hall's arches." Loophole.

Also, the moot's on pause until it comes back via unpause.

I was about to ask the question of how Lurky was planning on not nullifying his vote, but that's probably the answer. Lurky does like his loopholes.

Dvalin seems to have set the standard of dwarves putting honor and legalism before common sense. No wonder Lurky was looking forward to pulling off his backup plan.

[schmunzel]

Okay, this doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. "Gontor" is not an official member of the Moot, and thus should not be bound under the same protection as the High Priest Of Hel, so there should not only be nothing to prevent the "no" gods' priests from blasting him, but nothing to compel the "yes" gods' priests to aid him, particularly since he just announced to everyone that they intend to cheat. The only way I can see it working is if "Gontor" is still a thrall and attacking him would be an assault on the High Priest Of Hel's property, but that seems a bit iffy (and an exploitable loophole that probably would have come up before). It will almost certainly fit together when all is said and done, but I don't see how with the knowledge we currently have.

Actually I think that the other High Priests are not necessarily readers of this comic.
Means they might not have heard this. (As probably Roy)

It was an aside meant for the readers enjoyment.

While I had problems seeing our heroes hunt down Durkula in the dwarven lands for Durkons sake, I can now see why this happens story wise.
This might be Belkars redemption arc.
If indeed Roy stays inside the Gods Moot because he is unable to leave, it will fall to Belkar to help undo Durkon, possibly together with V Haley and Elan.
That leaves me with two issues

1) Why is Hels Vote not invalidated ?? Likely answer is "because of Reasons". perhaps even because the Proxy's got dismissed. I still think its strange though as Hel wont have a representative at the moot anymore and I dont see how Durkula will be back in time. (As strange as a dwarfen god who needs a council to decide whether all dwarves should get damned - so meh ...)

2) If it really would be Belkars redemption Arc I would rather expect him to solve this alone without V and consorts.
So he will use his Ring to jump inside, attack Durkon and end up being teleported together with the Vampires.

3) We still need a reason for the Mechane to crash into the Moot ...


sch

[Emperordaniel]

Indeed. Such timing. Much comedy. Exposition amazing!

Also: "I bring snacks"? I'm pretty sure you need a bit more than "snacks" for food for two days.

You can certainly survive on snacks for just two days if necessary (and I think it's somewhat of a tradition with this kind of thing anyway) - the fact that none of the past Godsmoots have ended with the attendees dropping dead of starvation should attest to that.

Plus, you know, clerics. Create Food and Water. :smalltongue:

[Vendanna]

"I bring snacks now, just in case"

That's exactly what I would do, right down to the sandwich in the ziplock baggie. I hope he brought enough to share...

They are all clerics that can probably summon food. so there is no problem at all for them to stay clogged up.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Roy doesn't have a vote therefore he can leave anytime he wants. Same for all the bodyguards and the creed of Stone.

I'm not sure how Durkula intends on keeping his vote standing if he leaves. Perhaps delegate his authority as high priest.

V can't teleport so the bad guys will have a headstart. The "I told you so" from Mechane's crew is going to be harsh.

Got to hand it to the Giant: 0% chance of anyone predicting that and yet it makes complete sense.

I did a whole outline a few threads ago with pretty much this scenario. Others have called it as well.

So, lots of dwarves to be converted into vampire spawn, so as to vote the way their master dictates. More dead dwarves to be turned into undead--hopefully, that means some extra XP for Roy, since he's so far behind.

Also, why bring snacks when you have Create Food and Water?

[Darth Tom]

I've never much cared for sidequests, but this one seems especially drawn-out and painful. Maybe I'm just not into vampire stories though, because I stopped really enjoying OOTS when Durkon died. Good to see other people are enjoying it though; I'll just keep waiting and hoping for an especially big payoff at the end of this plot.

[ThePhantom]

Sigh, this evil plan really shouldn't work. The dwarf god should be able to see through the mind control, and teleporting out should still be against the rules.:smallsigh:

Well, it keeps the comic going and maybe one of the elders might be able to hide so they have to hunt him down.

[schmunzel]

...

Also, why bring snacks when you have Create Food and Water?

because Snacks are more tasty ??

I cant see create Food and Water giving you your favorite Brand of chips.
(What will you do when your God spurns your favorite cookies brand because of the unsaturated fatty acids or you want a proper steak and Freya turns out to be Venan and you only get soy loafs??)

sch

[Aeliren]

Maybe the High Priest of Hel isn't the one leaving. Remember that the Creed of the Stone was vampirized, too - they could be the "we" that not-Gontor referred to. While the High Priest of Hel stays back at the Godsmoot to not nullify his vote, they go ahead and dominate the dwarven elders.

EDIT: There appears to be a typo in panel 5, where "King Dvalin" is spelled "King Davlin".

[littlebum2002]

Well, that wasn't anti-climactic at all :smallconfused:

[CrispyCriminal]

Dvalin: Forever a demi-god.

[wumpus]

because Snacks are more tasty ??

I cant see create Food and Water giving you your favorite Brand of chips.
(What will you do when your God spurns your favorite cookies brand because of the unsaturated fatty acids or you want a proper steak and Freya turns out to be Venan and you only get soy loafs??)

sch

I'm pretty sure that clerics (and favored souls) have to abide by their diety's dietary laws. More likely the tastiness of the created food indicates your standing with your god. For that matter could Durkon have used the "create food and water" spell, assuming someone drank the water? Or would Thor step in and modify it to create food and ale?

[Ruck]

I don't think anyone was listening or noticed Gontor's arrival. Roy certainly didn't. He'll be gone before anyone has a chance to react.

Durkula's line was more of 4th wall thing I'd say.
Bolded line is key. I'm assuming "Gontor" was speaking so only "Durkon" could hear him, but even if not, by the time the other representatives, clerics, etc. realized what was going on and turned to attack, they can teleport out before anything happens to them.

[Shining Wrath]

If I'm HPoOdin, the minute the HPoH leaves, I call the vote concluded and "No" the winner. Wasn't that the whole point of Roy's attack - you have to be there to vote? Not just once, but until the matter is decided?

Also, how can it possibly be legal for a Dominated person to vote? Vampires may be new, but the existence of enchantment spells is not, and since we know Dvalin has done this before I'd be surprised if no one ever tried enchanting a clan elder before. Don't tell me the assembled high priests plus their body guards have no one who can spot a Dominated person; Insight is a wisdom-based check.

There's a big gaping hole in the plan.

Also, score one for Grey Wolf, first to guess "First King of the Dwarves" here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?459763-What-demigod-has-not-yet-voted). Enjoy the Internet you just won, oh sapient lupine.

[EmperorSarda]

1) Why is Hels Vote not invalidated ?? Likely answer is "because of Reasons". perhaps even because the Proxy's got dismissed. I still think its strange though as Hel wont have a representative at the moot anymore and I dont see how Durkula will be back in time. (As strange as a dwarfen god who needs a council to decide whether all dwarves should get damned - so meh ...)



Because the GodsMoot is paused. It's essentially in recess. They can leave without invalidating their vote. They just cannot leave because they don't want to influence the vote.

That said, if the HPoH leaves, how will he get back for when the Godsmoot resumes?

[Spore]

The dwarf god should be able to see through the mind control, and teleporting out should still be against the rules.:smallsigh:

It's a comic dwarf. They're lawful stupid. If his council elects a decision it is of no matter how the cirumstances happened.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Also, score one for Grey Wolf, first to guess "First King of the Dwarves" here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?459763-What-demigod-has-not-yet-voted). Enjoy the Internet you just won, oh sapient lupine.

That's awfully nice of you. I don't think I've ever won an Internet before.

GW

[Shining Wrath]

That's awfully nice of you. I don't think I've ever won an Internet before.

GW

Ettin in the Playground, and no extant Internets won? My fellow forumites have been sadly remiss.

[The Giant]

I've never much cared for sidequests, but this one seems especially drawn-out and painful. Maybe I'm just not into vampire stories though, because I stopped really enjoying OOTS when Durkon died. Good to see other people are enjoying it though; I'll just keep waiting and hoping for an especially big payoff at the end of this plot.

I'm sorry you don't care for it, but this isn't a "sidequest." This is the main plot.


If I'm HPoOdin, the minute the HPoH leaves, I call the vote concluded and "No" the winner. Wasn't that the whole point of Roy's attack - you have to be there to vote? Not just once, but until the matter is decided?

Also, how can it possibly be legal for a Dominated person to vote? Vampires may be new, but the existence of enchantment spells is not, and since we know Dvalin has done this before I'd be surprised if no one ever tried enchanting a clan elder before. Don't tell me the assembled high priests plus their body guards have no one who can spot a Dominated person; Insight is a wisdom-based check.

There's a big gaping hole in the plan.

Yeah, those almost sound like the sorts of thing that might be dealt with further in future comics. Weird.

[Rift_Wolf]

Thinking about it, I'm rescinded my comment about the 'hall arches' loophole. It strikes me that the Giant has got three cliffhangers running concurrently, with differing levels of cliff and hanging. My thought is that, somehow, all three will be fulfilled all at once in a manner both unexpected and satisfying.
Although Vampires love their loopholes, I doubt the HPoO's line will be looped, seeing as planning for such poor wording as part of your evil scheme is too much a coincidence.

[Shining Wrath]

I'm sorry you don't care for it, but this isn't a "sidequest." This is the main plot.



Yeah, those almost sound like the sorts of thing that might be dealt with further in future comics. Weird.

Well, at least I'm asking sufficiently interesting questions to get snarked upon. Is this a step up from being ignored completely? I shall ponder. :smallamused:

That the HPoOdin said "Hall's Arches" does leave a loophole - and if the HPoOdin uses the same language each time, that would mean that Hel could count on that.

It also implies an upper limit on the level of the priests, as Ethereal Jaunt is 7th level, and lasts one round per level (so minimum 13). Even at the slow speed of dwarves, 13 rounds is enough time to pass through the walls. It's entirely possible that Veldrina and HPoHel are the two highest level clerics in attendance. For that matter, Word of Recall is 6th level.

In a pantheon containing Loki no one thought to tighten up the language? ... I suspect I'm asking for another dose of snark.

[WindStruck]

I really can't believe how he simply won't vote No without consulting them. It should be obvious what the elders' votes will be.

It's just a waste of time on everyone's part, and an insult to their intelligence.

[Alejandro]

It's starting to feel like the Galactic Senate in the prequels, in there.

[Silverionmox]

Hell's Priest's presence cannot be required to make the vote stick, or Roy would simply (have to, as bodyguard) wait until the spell expires and deal steel. Either way, this wouldn't work. Therefore Roy trying to kill Hell's Priest was entirely pointless once Hel's vote was cast.

Also, therefore the presence of all other priests who voted (at least those in the first round) isn't necessary either. Given that they now know what their colleague is up to, the only sensible reaction is to hitch the next ride to the dwarven lands they can to prevent a vampiric infestation which would result in their god losing terrain to Hel - at least for the dwarven priests. So at least those and probably some other good-aligned ones should go along with the cavalry to join the battle at Alamo.

[Bobbybobby99]

Woo, second page! More relevantly, I love how quickly this updated; does that mean that the backlog on rewards after the kickstarter has finally settled? I hope so.

[a1chemi]

I'm sorry you don't care for it, but this isn't a "sidequest." This is the main plot.



Yeah, those almost sound like the sorts of thing that might be dealt with further in future comics. Weird.

I very much enjoy how people point out how the villain's plan to destroy the world won't work, as though that's a plot hole.

Two thumbs up. Would read again.

[Witty Username]

I don't get it. Would a Dwarven god not know that the elders were dominated and thus not representing their own wishes and thoughts?

that would be a funny way to end the arc without the world being destroyed.

[The Shadow]

I really can't believe how he simply won't vote No without consulting them. It should be obvious what the elders' votes will be.

It's just a waste of time on everyone's part, and an insult to their intelligence.

Of course it is, but that's completely irrelevant. He's an archetypal dwarf, and he swore a vow. He will keep it to the end.

[Peelee]

I like how the sequester also neatly keeps all the high level clerics from joining Roy to stop Xykon. Very cleverly done, that.

[Ron Miel]

Typo alert: missing word in Roy's last balloon.

There's no way a bunch of Dwarven bigwigs [would/ will/ are gonna] vote ....

[Cirin]

I really can't believe how he simply won't vote No without consulting them. It should be obvious what the elders' votes will be.

It's just a waste of time on everyone's part, and an insult to their intelligence.

Yes, but as he said, he swore an oath to consult with them.

For a highly Lawful, honor-bound being, that means he just can't vote "No" no matter how screamingly obvious the answer is. Therefore, he has to go through the motions of asking.

[ti'esar]

"No attendee shall pass through this hall's arches until this issue is resolved!"

...Yeah, I just bet it was Loki who insisted on that very loopholy wording.

Nice of "Gontor" to explain the plan so we're not going to all have to speculate on what the HPoH is after for ages again.

[Commander672]

Watch in awe as the council of the gods becomes even more indecisive than the US congress!

What if Durkon manages to only dominate 50% of the Dwarven clan leaders? Will we need a tiebreaker-tiebreaker-tiebreaker?

[Jasdoif]

Also, why bring snacks when you have Create Food and Water?My guess would be because snacks tend to be tasty, whereas create food and water produces bland fare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createFoodAndWater.htm).


Typo alert: missing word in Roy's last balloon.

There's no way a bunch of Dwarven bigwigs [would/ will/ are gonna] vote ....It's valid as is, whichever way they vote.

[The Giant]

Typo alert: missing word in Roy's last balloon.

There's no way a bunch of Dwarven bigwigs [would/ will/ are gonna] vote ....

It's correct as-is.

EDIT: Actually, it should be votes, not vote, since it refers to bunch not bigwigs.

[Aeliren]

There appears to be a typo in panel 5, where it's written "Davlin" instead of "Dvalin".

[Ron Miel]

Fair enough.

Somebody pointed out earlier that the king's name changes from Dvalin in panel 2 to Davlin in panel 4.

[ellindsey]

Of course it is, but that's completely irrelevant. He's an archetypal dwarf, and he swore a vow. He will keep it to the end.

He's not just an archetypal dwarf, he's a demigod of Lawful behavior. Deciding to ignore his vow and act on his own would be a violation of his deific domain, against the very values that he stands for as a demigod. Gods are in some ways less free than mortals, seeing as how they by their very nature are associated with certain beliefs and values.

[daremetoidareyo]

Is this a tangent of a tangent on a tangent?!

Seriously though, what if Belkar was off hunting the Durkon who teleported out using the arch loophole, while roy stayed behind. And Belkar's methods of defeating him was to finally redeem the inner Durkon. Rather than coming at this all heart stabby, Belkar demonstrates that he's got the sick honesty skillz to free the real Durkon.

[schmunzel]

I'm pretty sure that clerics (and favored souls) have to abide by their diety's dietary laws. More likely the tastiness of the created food indicates your standing with your god. For that matter could Durkon have used the "create food and water" spell, assuming someone drank the water? Or would Thor step in and modify it to create food and ale?


That actually is a pretty important theological debate.
Id like to see Durkula create Blood though, now.

Does it come in different flavours, too??
Rhesus pos / neg ? A ? B ? AB ?


sch

[NerdyKris]

I'm sorry you don't care for it, but this isn't a "sidequest." This is the main plot.



Some people on this forum seem to consider anything short of the final panel to be a "side quest".

[schmunzel]

That said, if the HPoH leaves, how will he get back for when the Godsmoot resumes?

That is likely (hopefully) ((probably)) the key issue here

sch

[pendell]

NOW the penny drops and NOW the evil plan unfolds in it's totality. Well played, Rich Burlew. Well. Played. This is why I keep reading. You still find ways to surprise me :).

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Porthos]

Who's ready for some Death and Destruction? :smallbiggrin:

[T.G. Oskar]

Hmm...Durkula is showing a flair for the dramatic? Seriously? The kind of flair for the dramatic that basically obliterated last book's main villain, Tarquin?

The way he mentioned it ("I should be mad at you for spilling [the plan], but your timing there was so perfect") was textbook of Tarquin's and Elan's behavior, contrasting the two extremes of Xykon (affably comical psychopath/no-nonsense whipmaster). This seems to be the first time Durkula shows that kind of flair. Did Elan influenced him somewhat just by being in proximity? It can't exactly be an alignment trait, as both Elan and Haley (the latter to an extent) are CG, and Haley isn't exactly keen on the dramatic.

Then again: maybe the Snarl DOES like a flair for the dramatic? Are we the Snarl, then?

[Aeliren]

Hmm...Durkula is showing a flair for the dramatic? Seriously? The kind of flair for the dramatic that basically obliterated last book's main villain, Tarquin?

The way he mentioned it ("I should be mad at you for spilling [the plan], but your timing there was so perfect") was textbook of Tarquin's and Elan's behavior, contrasting the two extremes of Xykon (affably comical psychopath/no-nonsense whipmaster). This seems to be the first time Durkula shows that kind of flair. Did Elan influenced him somewhat just by being in proximity? It can't exactly be an alignment trait, as both Elan and Haley (the latter to an extent) are CG, and Haley isn't exactly keen on the dramatic.

Then again: maybe the Snarl DOES like a flair for the dramatic? Are we the Snarl, then?
It's probably just because it makes everything Roy just said ironic. He's still standing just outside the antilife shell.

[Smolder]

Yeah, those almost sound like the sorts of thing that might be dealt with further in future comics. Weird.

This would be a reasonable response to 90% of the gripes I see on the forum.

[rman]

I am now waiting for HPoH and company to leave and Roy to get mobbed by fans:

- can I have your autograph
- was that really spell splinter
- where did you learn that
- awesome fight
- got an opening for paladin right here
- Attacking your escort, I like your logic boy (Priest of Loki)
- ......

[lenon3579]

I am now waiting for HPoH and company to leave and Roy to get mobbed by fans:

- can I have your autograph
- was that really spell splinter
- where did you learn that
- awesome fight
- got an opening for paladin right here
- Attacking your escort, I like your logic boy (Priest of Loki)
- ......

I chuckled with the line from HPoLoki...

[Ditto]

I believe Roy is supposed to stay as well since Fearless Leader said 'everyone who has an official role' should stay, and he's a guardian.

Also, guys guys guys, if Durkon leaves - remember The Oracle's prophecy? "When will I be returning to the dwarven lands?" - "Posthumously."

It's happening! :smallbiggrin:

[lenon3579]

Also, guys guys guys, if Durkon leaves - remember The Oracle's prophecy? "When will I be returning to the dwarven lands?" - "Posthumously."

It's happening! :smallbiggrin:

And that makes me sad about the other prophecy, concerning Belkar... :/

[keybounce]

The main plot:

In order for our heroes to resurrect Durkon, they are visiting a vote on the destruction of the world, where they plead -- uselessly -- to let the people of the world attempt to protect the last gate.

In the process, they find that Durkon isn't Durkon anymore.

So, they have to stop the gods from destroying the world, _then_ head off to the gate fast enough to stop RedCloak from casting a two-part ritual that will turn the gate over to his god for yet more god games of politics and bickering/deal making, _AND_ figure out how to keep the last gate from being destroyed.

_WHILE_, V tries to understand what the gate really is, and why there is a world inside the gate, now that V realizes that what they think they know might not be accurate in the first place.

... That a good summary of where we are now?

Oh yea:
1. We have to have the big dramatic reveal of what's inside the umbrella of obscuring (hides you from observation, but doesn't hide that you are hiding from observation -- sounds like the TOR network)
2. We have two more halt-catch-freezeframe on V
3. There is going to be one more interrupt from Elan's dad and company
4. The flying airship has to make a sacrificial blow at some point, Han Solo style, to allow our heroes to get into the final strike
5. And, we have to end with some question of "How many levels we went up", probably at the top of a tower, with a "Not that again" comment or something.
6. Plus a return of the demon roaches just because.

(Didn't they say that there were nine sides in this conflict? Do we know all of them by now?)

EDIT:


EDIT: Actually, it should be votes, not vote, since it refers to bunch not bigwigs.
Huh. I read it as "vote", and was thinking it was just fine -- "a bunch of bigwigs vote to ...", and had no problem.

A bigwig votes
A bunch of bigwigs vote.

"Bunch of bigwigs" is plural to me.

[Killer Angel]

Well, it's good to know the backup plan... :smallsmile:

[Knight.Anon]

You would think that gods would be concerned about the spirit of the law instead of the letter of the law. Lawful must mean suicidally anal. Let Durkula teleport out then rule he violated the sequester. Tie is broken and the world is back on the buffet for the Snarl. They can have another vote and demote Hel into a demon.

This like watching a speeder getting out of a ticket by comparing his speed relative the rotation of the earth, and speed of the milky way relative to another car in the Andromeda galaxy. Odin is either playing a long con, or has negative wisdom. I'm pro it being a con, that would be fun.

At least Durkula won't have its game breaking staff anymore.

[hroþila]

Lots of complaints about stuff that hasn't even happened yet ITT.

[Jelly d6]

Because the GodsMoot is paused. It's essentially in recess. They can leave without invalidating their vote. They just cannot leave because they don't want to influence the vote.

That said, if the HPoH leaves, how will he get back for when the Godsmoot resumes?

Word of Recall. He will be back on Mechane. Thus, an interesting opportunity to thwart his plan would be to pilot Mechane as far away as possible. To the last Gate?

[Giggling Ghast]

I don't get it. Would a Dwarven god not know that the elders were dominated and thus not representing their own wishes and thoughts?

Doesn't matter. His oath states that he would obey the will of the council on issues affecting all dwarven lands. And you know how dwarves are about their oaths.

[WindStruck]

Watch in awe as the council of the gods becomes even more indecisive than the US congress!

What if Durkon manages to only dominate 50% of the Dwarven clan leaders? Will we need a tiebreaker-tiebreaker-tiebreaker?

I think the triple tie breaker will involve an irate halfling (and his pals) dusting a bunch of vampires.

[EccentricFellow]

Oh dear! Well, now we at least know what the plan is. Now it is popcorn and edge-of-seat time as we see how it is going to actually play out. Nice to have an unexpected update too. What a great day.

[Havelocke]

waitaminute, doesn't the creed of stone need to undo the temple thingie? or will the spell just collapse after the time expires? The temple will revert back to the mountain top will all the clerics on it!

[Cirin]

waitaminute, doesn't the creed of stone need to undo the temple thingie? or will the spell just collapse after the time expires? The temple will revert back to the mountain top will all the clerics on it!

Stone Shape has a duration of "Instantaneous", in D&D jargon that means it's permanent and cannot be dispelled. (A duration of "Permanent" would mean it was there permanently but could be dispelled by Dispel Magic or related spells)

They just meant they'd take the temple apart and restore the mountain to its natural shape at the end, but until they cast those spells, the temple is there permanently.

[DigoDragon]

Perhaps Elan and his god of Banjos will be needed to cause another tie? :smallbiggrin:

[EarwaxRock]

Wild, baseless speculation of the day: Belkar kills himself as he jumps through the HPoH's defensive spell, so that, being dead he can pass through, but with enough momentum that his corpse stabs the HPoH on the other side. Likely? No, not at all.

Which reminds me of my previous crack theory: vampirized Belkar would still be in possession of his own soul, since he's already evil. I'd love to see Belkar turn Durkula's "You're still the same old ***** (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0907.html)" on Durkula himself.

[DavidSh]

Somebody pointed out earlier that the king's name changes from Dvalin in panel 2 to Davlin in panel 4.

Could well be that that character has trouble pronouncing a syllable-initial "dv" combination, or that the pronunciation has evolved differently over the years in different cultures. (Just as Norse Tyr is Old English Tiw.) Or maybe an error.

[Bulldog Psion]

I'm kind of conflicted about this strip.

On the one hand, I'm always happy to read more OotS.

On the other hand, I'm feeling really bad for Roy right now. So much heroism, determination, effort, struggle ... utterly in vain. It's like the universe is trying rub the uselessness of fighters in his face. I realize the message is supposed to be opposite in this comic, but here, it really feels unfair to the poor guy. :smallfrown:

[primordial]

I'm sorry, but this seems like such a crazy-easy plan to foil. Anyone present who wants to prevent Hel's outcome can cast Dimensional Anchor/Dimensional Lock/Forbiddance/Otiluke's Suppressing Field/Investiture of the Orthon/Zone of Respite + probably others that I've missed.

[Kish]

You mean anyone present who falls in the loophole that let Roy attack the High Priest of Hel (so...Roy, or Belkar if he got there?) or are you assuming a far cruder "casting Dimensional Anchor at you totally doesn't count as attacking!" loophole?

[primordial]

...or are you assuming a far cruder "casting Dimensional Anchor at you totally doesn't count as attacking!" loophole?

Oy, fine, take that one off the list - all the others are spells that affect areas and/or the caster hirself, not targets.

[Doug Lampert]

You mean anyone present who falls in the loophole that let Roy attack the High Priest of Hel (so...Roy, or Belkar if he got there?) or are you assuming a far cruder "casting Dimensional Anchor at you totally doesn't count as attacking!" loophole?
I'll add: Dimensional Anchor is a ranged touch attack. It's right there in the description of the spell.
To use it, you make a ranged touch attack on the target.

Edited to add:

Oy, fine, take that one off the list - all the others are spells that affect areas and/or the caster hirself, not targets.
And there was a long discussion earlier about ways to "attack" with area effects, and the consensus was that those were all still attacks.

But more seriously:
Dimensional Lock: Targets a point in space and only a 20' radius. Yawn. The HPoH leaves the area of effect and departs.
Forbiddance: Takes 6 rounds to cast. They're long gone prior to you finishing.
Otiluke's Suppressing Field: Non core, which means it only exists if someone has researched it.
Investiture of the Orthon: Ditto
Zone of Respite: Ditto again

You were saying?

[Breccia]

Two days? Teleport orb or not, that's not a ton of time to dominate multiple dwarven clans. Durkula and fang Sinatra Jr. are going to have to hurry.

[Thrillhouse]

Dimensional anchor is basically irrelevant as I suspect these guys will be gone before anyone even has time to react, let alone consider all their various spell/legal options.

[Kish]

Oy, fine, take that one off the list - all the others are spells that affect areas and/or the caster hirself, not targets.

And?

I take it you're assuming a minor variation of the cruder loophole, where a spell can be obviously a hostile action directed straight at one priest, and yet the Godsmoot's rules will allow it from anyone without punishment or opening them up to retaliation as long as it doesn't involve targeting them. I submit that if the Godsmoot rules were as you assume, every god whose portfolio doesn't explicitly forbid driving a dump truck through dump-truck-sized loopholes would have a plan in place to easily kill or incapacitate every other god's priest whenever a vote came up that that god cared about the result of.

[Anansiil]

Welp, color me impressed!
Nicely played! I will purchase a calendar in your honor :P
Such a rapid update, I thought I was a fool to click the next button so early, a Fool!

(now I'll never stop clicking next lol -_-)

[8BitNinja]

I should still be looking at the other boards, but the timing there was just so perfect

[Keltest]

I don't know why anyone thinks the HPoH needs to leave. There are at least two vampires who aren't the HPoH.

[Shining Wrath]

I don't know why anyone thinks the HPoH needs to leave. There are at least two vampires who aren't the HPoH.

A plausible interpretation of Vamptor's "we can leave" in the final panel is "you and I can leave".

[littlebum2002]

I don't know why anyone thinks the HPoH needs to leave. There are at least two vampires who aren't the HPoH.

I was thinking the same thing


A plausible interpretation of Vamptor's "we can leave" in the final panel is "you and I can leave".

Right, that is a possible interpretation.

The problem comes up here, when people say the following:


There are two ways of interpreting this. One involved Durkula leaving the Godsmmot, which involves him possibly violating the rules or exploiting a loophole. The other involves other vampires leaving, which does not contain these rule breakings.

I'm going to assume that the first method of interpreting this statement is true, despite having no evidence to suggest this, then complain about how Durkula shouldn't be allowed to violate the rules

If you're going to complain and argue about the comic, at least do it about things that have already happened.

[8BitNinja]

Mr. Shining Wrath, how many vampires does it take to get to the center of a godsmoot?

[Anansiil]

Everything seems plausible to me (my sig shows how lawful I am :P)
I can't really imagine that most people would have too many ways to guard against votes being tampered with on too regular a basis. If you're clever and can't dominate the voter directly, dominate their loved one's as extortion. Turn some voters into vampires, 2 day council might need more than 2 days.

Is being magically coerced so different than being coerced in any other way? It a way it is, but would it make sense to have a means of detecting that a person is being compelled?

Would a coucil member want to be magically compelled to tell the truth, like at the front door of the Moot? Probably not, because lying is useful when you're a politician, white lies, or otherwise. Considering the difficulty of politics, I can see a large number of dominators being able to sway a vote. They only have to do it once, and how likely is a dwarven (or any) council specifically prepped against vampire assaults on their council meetings?

I *think* the element of surprise will work in the vampire's favor :P

I'm excited to see what comes next!

[137beth]

The Next Phase is starting to make sense:smalleek:

[Lheticus]

Doesn't matter. His oath states that he would obey the will of the council on issues affecting all dwarven lands. And you know how dwarves are about their oaths.

But what exactly is meant by the "will of the council" if they're being forced to vote against their will?

[Bulldog Psion]

A plausible interpretation of Vamptor's "we can leave" in the final panel is "you and I can leave".

Additionally, I'm not sure if loitering around in the same room with Roy for two days would be entirely healthy for Lurky Corpsewhiskers.

[EmperorSarda]

Word of Recall. He will be back on Mechane. Thus, an interesting opportunity to thwart his plan would be to pilot Mechane as far away as possible. To the last Gate?

Dimensional Anchor blocks that.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, that ties things together rather nicely. I do hope that we don't have to sit around for two days while the clans get together.

[Lkctgo]

If the moot is on pause... Is the guarantee of non-violence and neutrality likewise on pause?

[Lord Cuvis]

"No attendee shall pass through this hall's arches until this issue is resolved!"

...Yeah, I just bet it was Loki who insisted on that very loopholy wording.

Nice of "Gontor" to explain the plan so we're not going to all have to speculate on what the HPoH is after for ages again.

Of course, now that the plan has been explained, it's doomed to failure.

[Anarion]

That's actually a pretty good backup plan. I guess being a vampire cleric with vampire cleric underlings does have some advantages.

[primordial]

Forbiddance: Takes 6 rounds to cast. They're long gone prior to you finishing.

Wouldn't one cast Forbiddance to keep Durkalon et minions from coming back in?

In any case, I understand that rules/details have been tweaked many times in this story in order to allow for better narrative - and if done well it doesn't adversely effect reader enjoyment (it's the same for players in a well-run real life campaign).

It's just that having Durkulon predict the precise loophole in the language of the HPoOdin seems like such a massive gimmee - it booted me out of 'reader-mode' into 'player-says-wtf?!-mode'. (I mean - he's never been to a godsmoot, we have little/no reason to believe that such a 'pause' has ever occured before, and hasn't Hel been absent from the previous ones anyway?)

But much as it seems to be SOP here, I don't really enjoy rules debates or the dog-piling of even minor naysayers - so feel free to assume that any response to this post will have so totally devastated me with its intuitively obvious logic and righteousness that I have been reduced to a sobbing mass of jelly. D;

Happy Holidays All!

[AbyssStalker]

:smallannoyed: You would think that the divine barriers would block Durkula from leaving via teleportation as well. Did suspending the proxy also suspend said barriers?

P.S. It's likely that he will just send his thralls to vamp them anyways, since him leaving will (as far as we know) render his vote invalid, breaking the first tie-breaker rendering the 2nd tie-breaker moot. Although I would love for that to happen, it would be hilarious to see Hel screw herself by being too clever by half and having Durkula leave.

[Lexible]

"Bunch of bigwigs" is plural to me.

Really? Just how many bunches does the phrase indicate? More than one bunch, or just one bunch?

[wesleytj]

I believe Roy is supposed to stay as well since Fearless Leader said 'everyone who has an official role' should stay, and he's a guardian.

Also, guys guys guys, if Durkon leaves - remember The Oracle's prophecy? "When will I be returning to the dwarven lands?" - "Posthumously."

It's happening! :smallbiggrin:

...not to mention the ORIGINAL prophecy about why Durkon was sent out of the Dwarven lands in the first place...

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Please let Roy just whack the vampires.

[Lord Cuvis]

It's just that having Durkulon predict the precise loophole in the language of the HPoOdin seems like such a massive gimmee - it booted me out of 'reader-mode' into 'player-says-wtf?!-mode'. (I mean - he's never been to a godsmoot, we have little/no reason to believe that such a 'pause' has ever occured before, and hasn't Hel been absent from the previous ones anyway?)

Actually, panel 8 confirms that it has happened before, and was expected.

[Kish]

Really? Just how many bunches does the phrase indicate? More than one bunch, or just one bunch?
I believe it's an American English/British English distinction. America numbers pronouns associated with, e.g., "crowd of people" based on "one crowd"; Britain (and most of the non-America English-speaking world) numbers pronouns associated with "crowd of people" based on "multiple people."

(I am uncertain here and may be misinformed about British English in this matter.)

[dps]

because Snacks are more tasty ??

I cant see create Food and Water giving you your favorite Brand of chips.
(What will you do when your God spurns your favorite cookies brand because of the unsaturated fatty acids or you want a proper steak and Freya turns out to be Venan and you only get soy loafs??)

sch

Humans can easily survive for considerably more than 2 days with nothing to eat at all. I'm not sure, but I'd think that would apply to other sapient races, too. Clerics might decide that this is an excellent opportunity for a couple of days of fasting and contemplation.

[Jasdoif]

I believe it's an American English/British English distinction. America numbers pronouns associated with, e.g., "crowd of people" based on "one crowd"; Britain (and most of the non-America English-speaking world) numbers pronouns associated with "crowd of people" based on "multiple people."My general impression is that either way is valid. "Crowd of people" is singular (since "people" is describing the contents of the singular crowd), but a reference to "crowd of people" could refer to the crowd or the people, so using singular or plural form is fine as long as it's consistent.

[Sir_Norbert]

Both of you are partly right. In American English it would be numbered as singular because it's one crowd. In British English it could be treated as singular or plural, depending on whether you are talking about the group individually or collectively. In this case, voting is an individual action so it would take a plural verb (in British): a bunch of bigwigs vote.

[littlebum2002]

I believe it's an American English/British English distinction. America numbers pronouns associated with, e.g., "crowd of people" based on "one crowd"; Britain (and most of the non-America English-speaking world) numbers pronouns associated with "crowd of people" based on "multiple people."

(I am uncertain here and may be misinformed about British English in this matter.)


Both of you are partly right. In American English it would be numbered as singular because it's one crowd. In British English it could be treated as singular or plural, depending on whether you are talking about the group individually or collectively. In this case, voting is an individual action so it would take a plural verb (in British): a bunch of bigwigs vote.

I'm not gonna lie, American English is pretty bad (yes, I'm American). "a bunch of people vote" sounds so much better than "a bunch of people votes". "Lift" is a much better name than "elevator", spelling things with an -ou is much cooler than spelling them with an -o, and "bloody" is the greatest curse word ever created.

[Keltest]

Humans can easily survive for considerably more than 2 days with nothing to eat at all. I'm not sure, but I'd think that would apply to other sapient races, too. Clerics might decide that this is an excellent opportunity for a couple of days of fasting and contemplation.

Why would they do that? spells to create food and water are on the standard cleric spell list. Heck, Durkon is the only one who would be in trouble there unless someone decided to be generous and allow him to feed like Roy did.

[DaggerPen]

... oh my god.

Well. That's bad. But also amazing. What a gambit.

[Atomburster]

Doesn't it, like, break the rules of the Godsmoot for the vampirized cleric who ran out of spells (forgot the name, lol) to enter the moot?

[toapat]

"No attendee shall pass through this hall's arches." Loophole.

Also, the moot's on pause until it comes back via unpause.

the room they are in is presumably domed or vaulted, which itself means they cant leave the room without planeshift, as a dome is a 3 dimensional arch

Also, doesnt Hel technically get disqualified now?

[LuisDantas]

Good comic, even if it makes me worry that we are about to have a lot more Belkar in the near future.

Hopefully revisiting the Dwarven lands will compensate for that.

[IQubic]

OMG! THIS IS AWESOME. I just noticed this: The Oracle from 700 strips ago was correct: Just look at strip 331. Look at the answer to Durkon's question. According to Google, posthumously is an adverb that helps describe something that happens to a person after they die. Durkon is dead now. I assume the ending of the world would be a bad ending, so for the Oracle to have correctly answered Elan's question she will need to have survived the end of the world.

[JoeyTheNeko]

dang.... so that's why he stole the orb.

well, the race is on for the order to stop durkon's vampire and the thralls from fixing that final vote. this is going to end very poorly for the dwarves regardless, thanks to the old prophecy, though.

[rockdeworld]

"I bring snacks now," but clerics can cast Create Food and Water... and some can cast Heroes Feast.

[eilandesq]

Any reason a Sending spell directed at Dvalin wouldn't end this problem immediately and lead to a large number of incinerated vampires? "High Priest of Hel planning to dominate clan heads before vote. Take measures to make sure all voters are in their right minds before accepting result."

[Keltest]

Any reason a Sending spell directed at Dvalin wouldn't end this problem immediately and lead to a large number of incinerated vampires? "High Priest of Hel planning to dominate clan heads before vote. Take measures to make sure all voters are in their right minds before accepting result."
Well, you need to be familiar with the person receiving the message. Transplanar sending spells also have a chance to fizzle entirely.

Beyond that, as far as I am aware none of the priests were paying attention to Gontor's blabbing.

[rbetieh]

So Gontor can leave but Durkon can't? Or does Gontor as the Moot administrator still have to stay?

I wonder if Loki will try to contact one of his Dwarven Clerics for help....

[eilandesq]

Well, you need to be familiar with the person receiving the message. Transplanar sending spells also have a chance to fizzle entirely.

Beyond that, as far as I am aware none of the priests were paying attention to Gontor's blabbing.

Roy heard (presumably, since he's standing right there and Durkula noted that Gontor had spilled the beans), so he could tell the clerics himself--and even if none of them can contact Dvalin directly, each of them could use Sending on their own clan leaders and make sure that all of them are shielded by protection from evil until someone spills the beans to Dvalin and the vampire slaying begins.

[Wildroses]

I think the funniest part of the whole comic to me was panel four when Roy realises that the tiebreaker now needs a tiebreaker.

I'm also impressed with Hel. She thought every scenario through and planned for each eventuality. This also explains why she was so annoyed when Hermod changed their vote - now she has to wait an additional two days for victory. I don't think anyone saw that coming on these forums, mostly because nobody figured out both the last voter's identity and the ramifications of his identity. The closest I've seen are the people who thought the leftover God was Forseti, who was skilled in conflict resolution and would negotiate a wait and see if the world can defend the last gate before destroying it truce.

I don't know how Durkon will be getting out of there without invalidating Hel's vote, but I have no doubt he will because of those two prophecies made about his return home. He will bring death and destruction, and he will do it posthumously.

It will also explain why the Order of the Stick have to drop everything and rush to the Dwarven homelands instead of Kraagor's gate, which has been puzzling me. There isn't much point in keeping the last gate safe if the gods end up voting to destroy the world anyway.

I'm really seeing this whole storyline as fallout from Roy's decision to destroy Girard's gate. If there had been two instead of one left, the Gods might not have decided to hold to vote and leave the door open for Hel manipulate.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Why are people fixating on two days? That's just how long it took the last time Dvalin had to go consult the council. Really, this could be the shortest committee hearing in the history of the universe.

Dvalin's priests are even now informing the Clan Chiefs of an emergency meeting to be held immediately.

The bigwigs gather, and the HPoDvalin makes a speech.

"For reasons which are covered by a No Divination Agreement, the gods are considering destroying the world immediately. I have the deciding vote. As per my oath, I come for your counsel. A Yes vote means the world is destroyed immediately, all dwarves die without honor and go to Hel. A No vote means we roll the dice. What say you?"

Council: "NAE!!"

"I will convey your decision to the Godsmoot forthwith. Yinz go pick a fight, y'hear."



Also, I believe this is what's known as a Hidden Clock problem. You know there's a time limit, but you don't know how long you have.

[Wildroses]

Looking at this from another angle, I kind of wish I was a fly on the wall of the meetings in the Western and Southern Pantheons right now. Either they are all biting their fingernails and tapping their feet going: "Come on, Northern Pantheon, you're the tiebreaker. Have the Gods voted to end the world or not? Put us out of our suspense already!" or the Northern Pantheon representative have told them: "Now the tiebreaker needs a tiebreaker and the last demigod is refusing to vote until he has consulted the Council. Last time he did this it took two days."

[Alex Warlorn]

"I brought snacks just in case."

"We're high level clerics dumb-dumb, if push comes to shoves we can just memorize 'Create Food' in the morning."

[Alex Warlorn]

And there's no way that vote will hold water if they're all Dominated, then it isn't actually their will the king is obeying!!!

[GreatWyrmGold]

Why can't the clerics just magic up their own food?
1. They don't have the spell prepared and it's not dinnertime yet.
2. Create food and water makes bland food. I'd polish off the snacks instead.
3. Gods above and below, it's a frakking one-panel gag, not a plot point!


I don't get it. Would a Dwarven god not know that the elders were dominated and thus not representing their own wishes and thoughts?
That was my first thought. He promised to obey the wishes of the clan heads, not any vampires/enchanters/psions with high enough DCs on their save-or-charms that the heads fail.


Sigh, this evil plan really shouldn't work. The dwarf god should be able to see through the mind control, and teleporting out should still be against the rules.:smallsigh:
Yeah, there are a lot of steps in Hel's plan that seem awfully Xanatos-Roulette-ey. And some contrived results, like so many near-ties.


because Snacks are more tasty ??
I cant see create Food and Water giving you your favorite Brand of chips.
There's probably a feat for that.


I take it you're assuming a minor variation of the cruder loophole, where a spell can be obviously a hostile action directed straight at one priest...
For a certain definition of "hostile". It's rude, no doubt, but since they're supposed to be staying in the hall anyways, it's no more hostile than closing and locking a prisoner's window.
(Don't ask why the prisoner's window opens.)


If you're clever and can't dominate the voter directly, dominate their loved one's as extortion.
"Vote aye or else!"
"If I vote aye my wife is going to die anyways. What are you going to do?"


Turn some voters into vampires, 2 day council might need more than 2 days.
Most governmental titles pass on to the heir-apparent when the title-holder dies. It's pretty clear that coming back as a vampire doesn't mean the original comes back in OotS, and surely someone relevant knows this.


Is being magically coerced so different than being coerced in any other way? It a way it is, but would it make sense to have a means of detecting that a person is being compelled?
Yes. I mean, if we had magic that would let us determine if Congressmen were being coerced by having their families threatened, we'd use it on votes when there was a suspicion that someone capable of doing so would greatly benefit from it.


the room they are in is presumably domed or vaulted, which itself means they cant leave the room without planeshift, as a dome is a 3 dimensional arch
Quick! Someone help Loki realize this!

Hel: "That's a loophole, and you know it!"
Loki: "Says the pot to the kettle."

[Sterling7]

I feel compelled to point out that "The will of the Council" ≠ "The vote of the council as conveyed by dwarves under domination by a vampire." The latter is, quite literally, NOT the will of the Council at all.

And it would take a pretty @#$% god not to be able to distinguish the difference.

[BriarHobbit]

This is awesome, even though I was hoping for a return to Belkar and his fight vs. the vampire thrall. It felt very dwarvish and highlights how dwarves just think differently than humans. We have the importance of the special oath and the clannish nature of dwarves. It seems that the vote of a mind controlled council should not carry the same weight as the vote of a council with free will, but it would depend upon how literal (come what may) Dvalin is.

I am curious whether the teleportation orb provides a round trip. Still holding hope that V did not leave such an expensive magic item without mystic defenses and that the thrall grabbed a fake. That does not seem to be very likely at this point.

[dps]

Why would they do that? spells to create food and water are on the standard cleric spell list. Heck, Durkon is the only one who would be in trouble there unless someone decided to be generous and allow him to feed like Roy did.

I'd suppose for the same reasons people fast for spiritual reasons in real life.

[Ruck]

Both of you are partly right. In American English it would be numbered as singular because it's one crowd. In British English it could be treated as singular or plural, depending on whether you are talking about the group individually or collectively. In this case, voting is an individual action so it would take a plural verb (in British): a bunch of bigwigs vote.
You know, I think you might be right. I keep going back and forth on this. "Bunch" is a singular term, so normally it would take a singular verb. But "voting" is a unique verb, as you mention, because it necessarily describes an action done by individual members of that group. I'm really not sure. On the other hand, I can't ever remember seeing as a plural verb without the preposition; i.e. nobody questioned "The Western Pantheon votes..." and I'm not sure that should change if it's "The Western Pantheon of Gods."

I suppose it would depend whether Roy is talking about how the individual dwarves will vote, or just if he means the one collective vote coming from them as a group.


I'm also impressed with Hel. She thought every scenario through and planned for each eventuality. This also explains why she was so annoyed when Hermod changed their vote - now she has to wait an additional two days for victory.
That's not necessarily true. It took two days last time. It could go a lot faster if, for example, the dwarven Council were all dominated into voting the same way.


I don't think anyone saw that coming on these forums, mostly because nobody figured out both the last voter's identity and the ramifications of his identity.
I'm fairly certain multiple people suggested the orb would be used to teleport to Dwarven lands, if not the specifics of how the plan would go down.

This all reminds me: I'm not a D&D player. How does dominate work with vampires? Are they talking about using a dominate ability or spell, or vampirizing and enthralling the dwarves?


I feel compelled to point out that "The will of the Council" ≠ "The vote of the council as conveyed by dwarves under domination by a vampire." The latter is, quite literally, NOT the will of the Council at all.

And it would take a pretty @#$% god not to be able to distinguish the difference.
I've seen other people mention this, too, and I find it to be an hilarious-yet-plausible loophole.

[Wildroses]

I'm fairly certain multiple people suggested the orb would be used to teleport to Dwarven lands, if not the specifics of how the plan would go down.



Lol, I am so not arguing with that. Lots of people saw that coming. I saw that coming because of the two prophecies about Durkon returning home, and it was confusing me greatly because I didn't see why everybody would be going to the Dwarven Lands when Kraagor's Gate seemed to be where the fate of the world rested. But it's pretty obvious which location the fate of the world is resting in right now this minute.

When I said nobody in the forum saw 'that' coming I was referring to how the specifics of the plan would go down and why there was now going to be a waiting period before the vote was resolved, which is why I talked about Forseti negotiating more time in the next sentence.

[Ruck]

Lol, I am so not arguing with that. Lots of people saw that coming. I saw that coming because of the two prophecies about Durkon returning home, and it was confusing me greatly because I didn't see why everybody would be going to the Dwarven Lands when Kraagor's Gate seemed to be where the fate of the world rested. But it's pretty obvious which location the fate of the world is resting in right now this minute.

When I said nobody in the forum saw 'that' coming I was referring to how the specifics of the plan would go down and why there was now going to be a waiting period before the vote was resolved, which is why I talked about Forseti negotiating more time in the next sentence.

Oh, I see. Yeah, I don't think that's the sort of thing that anyone could have seen coming, because the procedural element of how the First King of the Dwarves decides his vote wasn't revealed until now. I think almost anything more specific than "will go to dwarven lands and influence the vote somehow" would have been grasping at straws.

[Quebbster]

I like the use of Veldrina and the Southern representative to emphasize the issue with Dvalin.

[Gecho]

"Hey, what's this inscription on the teleport orb?"

"It says, ' I prepared Explosive Runes this morning.' "

BOOM!

[Deathhappens]

AHAHAHAHAH.
Oh my God, he was right. That WAS perfect.

[Rules Lawyer #1]

Really nice comic!
The abstain was pretty much what I was thinking would happen and that the vote would need to break another way - just wasn't sure it would fall to the hands of the Dwarven Council.
The dismissal of the proxies is a clever way to let Durkon leave without nullifying the vote. Although, I am a bit surprised if the spell used to prevent clerics from walking through the arches wouldn't stop teleports. Dimensional Anchor seems like a somewhat obvious safeguard when you are dealing with higher level magic. I surmise that Durkon is able to leave the moot by some other means and then use the Teleport Orb once outside the moot to travel to Dwarven lands. Possibly Gontor is the trump card that allows Durkon to exit the moot before he Teleports away.

I'm really interested to see what plan the Giant has in store for the Dwarven Council and if Belkar will be involved somehow as I suspect Roy is about to find himself stuck in the moot. Also can't wait to see if the Dwarven Council needs a tiebreaker too... on whom will the fate of the world rest?

[Killer Angel]

I'm pretty sure someone already put the question on the table, but...

"let all who have a formal role remain sequestered here, so as not to influence the outcome"

To teleport away, isn't a breach of the actual godsmoot's rules?

[schmunzel]

Humans can easily survive for considerably more than 2 days with nothing to eat at all. I'm not sure, but I'd think that would apply to other sapient races, too. Clerics might decide that this is an excellent opportunity for a couple of days of fasting and contemplation.

But why do they bring snacks, then ????


Roy heard (presumably, since he's standing right there ... ) ...

I *assume* that (as Roy was occupied during the beans being spelled)

that this was a breaking of the 4th wall for the readers pleasure only.

I do *not* think, that anyone else is aware of the plan at this point in time.

Roy at best overheard scraps with half an ear

sch

sch

[Yoroichi]

Did anyone feel this strip was anti-climactic as f*ck?

[schmunzel]

Why are people fixating on two days? That's just how long it took the last time Dvalin had to go consult the council. Really, this could be the shortest committee hearing in the history of the universe.

Dvalin's priests are even now informing the Clan Chiefs of an emergency meeting to be held immediately.

The bigwigs gather, and the HPoDvalin makes a speech.

"For reasons which are covered by a No Divination Agreement, the gods are considering destroying the world immediately. I have the deciding vote. As per my oath, I come for your counsel. A Yes vote means the world is destroyed immediately, all dwarves die without honor and go to Hel. A No vote means we roll the dice. What say you?"

Council: "NAE!!"

"I will convey your decision to the Godsmoot forthwith. Yinz go pick a fight, y'hear."



Also, I believe this is what's known as a Hidden Clock problem. You know there's a time limit, but you don't know how long you have.

2 Issues

1) HPoDv is at the Godsmoot. He shall not leave (or probably should not at any rate)
2) Yes the Hidden Clock came to mind, but it will not be a Hidden Clock to World Destruction as Durkula is going to Dwarven Lands, bringing Death and Destruction (tm) as per Oracle and late HPoO and (at least part of) the Order will follow to stop him.
I do not see that as a clock running, against which they would have to secure the last gate.
Whether Only Belkar follows Durkula to Dwarven Lands, or Belkar and V (and probably Elan and Haley) or even Roy remains to be seen

I am still waiting for the Mechane to crash into the moot.

I bet that would be a first :P

I still see this as Belkars redemtion arc.

sch

[Inevitability]

Fun fact: Dvalin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvalinn) is an actual dwarf from Scandinavian mythology. He plays a role in the story of Freya's necklace, which was referenced before in OOTS.


I'm pretty sure someone already put the question on the table, but...

"let all who have a formal role remain sequestered here, so as not to influence the outcome"

To teleport away, isn't a breach of the actual godsmoot's rules?

Maybe only Durkon's spawn are going to leave? Maybe Hammerfell only appeared to tell the HPoH everything was going fine? Still, I do wonder about this too.

[schmunzel]

I'd suppose for the same reasons people fast for spiritual reasons in real life.

to show theyre no Vampires ????

sch

[Kareasint]

"Hey, what's this inscription on the teleport orb?"

"It says, ' I prepared Explosive Runes this morning.' "

BOOM!

Yep. I could total see that happening. However, doing that and leaving it in a room with a raven obsessed with babbles might not be the best idea.

[Daibhid C]

Okay, this doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. "Gontor" is not an official member of the Moot, and thus should not be bound under the same protection as the High Priest Of Hel,

If I were a neutral administrator of a meeting of gods of all alignments, I'm pretty sure I'd make sure there were rules in place that you couldn't kill the neutral administrators.

[Bulldog Psion]

I'm not gonna lie, American English is pretty bad (yes, I'm American). "a bunch of people vote" sounds so much better than "a bunch of people votes". "Lift" is a much better name than "elevator", spelling things with an -ou is much cooler than spelling them with an -o, and "bloody" is the greatest curse word ever created.

And I feel the opposite on most of those points. :smallsmile: In particular, I find that "-ou" stuff to be ludicrous and annoying. "Armour" -- ugh.

I'll agree with "bloody," though. :smallbiggrin:

[BelgarathMTH]

I was taught in multiple English classes that collective nouns can take a plural verb, so it's correct to say "...group of dwarves vote..." You can even leave out the "of dwarves" and say "The group vote to..."

Other examples:
"My family eat together every night."
"The people find the defendant guilty."

BTW, if it matters, I'm American, and by "English classes" I mean American grade school and high school English classes taught to native speakers.

[KorvinStarmast]

I wonder if V can teleport them there in time to race and stop them... or if Roy and company will find a way to prevent HPoH from getting away.

V can't cast teleport which is why V had to get the orb.

As to flare for dramatic, and Elan and Haley, Haley spent a lot of time as the featured drama queen. Someone else's turn.

Was pleasantly surprised to open Gitp and find a new strip this morning. Thanks Rich, even though I share in the lack of enthusiasm for bureaucracy being a plot element. But it's not as though you have not used that before (paperwork in Tarqin's city and getting arrested and various fun with lawyers).

Merry Christmas. Nice for the strip to be where there's snow while Christmas is upon us.

[Adeptus]

I thought you couldn't carry anything in mistform. I guess I need to go read up on it.

/edit Nope, I was wrong. Gear turns gaseous as well.

[Shining Wrath]

Wouldn't one cast Forbiddance to keep Durkalon et minions from coming back in?

In any case, I understand that rules/details have been tweaked many times in this story in order to allow for better narrative - and if done well it doesn't adversely effect reader enjoyment (it's the same for players in a well-run real life campaign).

It's just that having Durkulon predict the precise loophole in the language of the HPoOdin seems like such a massive gimmee - it booted me out of 'reader-mode' into 'player-says-wtf?!-mode'. (I mean - he's never been to a godsmoot, we have little/no reason to believe that such a 'pause' has ever occured before, and hasn't Hel been absent from the previous ones anyway?)

But much as it seems to be SOP here, I don't really enjoy rules debates or the dog-piling of even minor naysayers - so feel free to assume that any response to this post will have so totally devastated me with its intuitively obvious logic and righteousness that I have been reduced to a sobbing mass of jelly. D;

Happy Holidays All!

We know from priestly discussion that Dvalin has done this enough times before that people bring snacks to help tide them over. Therefore, HPoOdin probably uses similar language each time.


You know, I think you might be right. I keep going back and forth on this. "Bunch" is a singular term, so normally it would take a singular verb. But "voting" is a unique verb, as you mention, because it necessarily describes an action done by individual members of that group. I'm really not sure. On the other hand, I can't ever remember seeing as a plural verb without the preposition; i.e. nobody questioned "The Western Pantheon votes..." and I'm not sure that should change if it's "The Western Pantheon of Gods."

I suppose it would depend whether Roy is talking about how the individual dwarves will vote, or just if he means the one collective vote coming from them as a group.


That's not necessarily true. It took two days last time. It could go a lot faster if, for example, the dwarven Council were all dominated into voting the same way.


I'm fairly certain multiple people suggested the orb would be used to teleport to Dwarven lands, if not the specifics of how the plan would go down.

This all reminds me: I'm not a D&D player. How does dominate work with vampires? Are they talking about using a dominate ability or spell, or vampirizing and enthralling the dwarves?


I've seen other people mention this, too, and I find it to be an hilarious-yet-plausible loophole.

As we've seen in this comic, a vampire can dominate those he has not bitten; HPoHel dominated Belkar and told him to jump overboard at least twice.

I am working on the "who is going to leave" question, and I wonder if Vamptor can leave the hall now that he's entered it, other than by use of the teleport orb. I think that now that a pause has been decreed he probably can, but it would be ... what's the vampire equivalent to unhealthy? ... to be noticed by Roy. If "we" means "Vamptor plus other vampires created by HPoH prior to entering the hall", then all Vamptor is doing is checking in before departing. However, that doesn't allow Durkon to fulfill his prophecy of returning to the dwarven lands posthumously. And it doesn't save the HPoH from the wrath of Roy, or vice-versa. In two days time one of them would be dead.

I also think it would be hilarious if V left a fake orb out to be stolen and hid the real one somewhere - we are talking genius-level intelligence, plus a certain bird who has persistently reminded V that there are thieves about in the world, greeding at baubles with their money-eyes. And even if V didn't bother to do it, Haley might have. Unlikely for the reasons stated above but still funny.

EDIT: Since Gontor was not protected by the rules of the Moot, Vamptor most certainly is not; being noticed by any of the assembled high priests of the "No" party would be very close to instantly fatal. Therefore it is extraordinarily risky for him to enter the hall and resume his non-mist form unless he intends to depart via orb almost immediately. Therefore, I predict, to the dismay of several forumites, that "we" did in fact refer to the High Priest of Hel and Vamptor. Rich will doubtless explain why this does not invalidate Hel's vote, probably because proxies have been dismissed.

[DaggerPen]

Personally, my money's on "may not leave the Godsmoot without forfeiting your vote... unless accompanied out by a neutral administrator, in the case of important business that they cannot take care of on your behalf."

Granted, "Gontor" has been taken over by an evil spirit, but even should the assembled members know that, the real Gontor is technically still inside his body, if only as a prisoner, and thereby accompanying them.

Yeah, it's loopholes on top of loopholes, but I mean, that's basically the back-cover summary of this arc by now. I feel like half the point of this arc is basically just that the gods haven't gotten involved in this whole Snarl thing to help put the Order because of a remote mountain's worth of red tape meant to prevent another Snarl. XD

[lenon3579]

Btw I think that this last panel ends up the Gontohel being a thrall vs not being a thrall polemic. That reporting, with that specific kind of wording and of naivete is very reminiscent of our thrall Durkula on his exploitings with his former master Malack.

[Ruck]

As we've seen in this comic, a vampire can dominate those he has not bitten; HPoHel dominated Belkar and told him to jump overboard at least twice.
Oh, yes, as well as the cleric who tries to warn Roy that Durkon's soul is not the one in control of his actions. Got it, thanks.

That plan does seem to me like it has more parts that could go wrong than vampirization, however (unless the members of the Council are just too strong to defeat in combat).

[Keltest]

Oh, yes, as well as the cleric who tries to warn Roy that Durkon's soul is not the one in control of his actions. Got it, thanks.

That plan does seem to me like it has more parts that could go wrong than vampirization, however (unless the members of the Council are just too strong to defeat in combat).

I agree, which is why im hesitant to take it at face value. This sounds more like Nale's plan with the gates than one that has any chance of actually getting the villain what they want, but Hel has so far demonstrated a fair knowledge of what is likely to happen.

[alexandraerin]

I agree, which is why im hesitant to take it at face value. This sounds more like Nale's plan with the gates than one that has any chance of actually getting the villain what they want, but Hel has so far demonstrated a fair knowledge of what is likely to happen.

Remember, this part of the plan is far newer than the rest of the plan. It was only conceived when Durkula (and thus Hel) learned of the teleport orb. It's a thrown-together back-up plan that under ideal circumstances would not have been necessary.

And as much as Hel does seem to have all the angles covered, remember that she couldn't imagine a demigod she'd swayed to her side on principle would change her mind when faced with the reality that it would actually matter. That's a pretty thing to overlook. I think she's fixated on the legalism of the Godsmoot and forgetting the actual dynamics of people (and gods).

[Jelly d6]

Dimensional Anchor blocks that.

Yup:smallconfused:
And Dimensional Lock has a visual effect seen by a mundane eye, so Lurky couldn't dispel it secretly before leaving.

Now, to think of it, does the temple where Godsmoot is going count as a very familiar place for Gontoratu? I mean, he supervised its construction.

Or I am missing another ways of returning besides Word of Recall?

As someone has already mentioned, it will be easy to cast teleportation-blocking spells in the area when the vampires leave for the dwarven council.

[Ranzear]

Oh that's what V bought...

[Eireannx]

Huh. I read it as "vote", and was thinking it was just fine -- "a bunch of bigwigs vote to ...", and had no problem.

A bigwig votes
A bunch of bigwigs vote.

"Bunch of bigwigs" is plural to me.

If bunch of bigwigs is plural, why did you precede it with the singular 'A'?

A bigwig votes. Bigwigs vote. A bunch of bigwigs votes. Bunches of bigwigs vote.

I think part of the issue is that the subject changes from being bigwig(s) to bunch(es)

[Shekinah]

Two days? That's... quite shorter than I thought. I was thinking it was going to take weeks.

[Peelee]

If bunch of bigwigs is plural, why did you precede it with the singular 'A'?

A bigwig votes. Bigwigs vote. A bunch of bigwigs votes. Bunches of bigwigs vote.

I think part of the issue is that the subject changes from being bigwig(s) to bunch(es)

"I" is singular.

I am not going to vote.
I was going to, but now I am not.
However, if I were to vote.....

English is funny. If "were" can be second-person singular simple past tense indicative of be, then any pluralized verb can be singular form when used in conjunction with a collective noun, as far as I'm concerned.

[M.A.D]

The High Priest of Thor was calling the dwarf king Davlin instead of Dvalin. Is that gonna be left as is?

[Blue Tempest]

Ok hold on. This should in no way work. If the room is designed for high level casters, and no one is allowed to leave the room right now, then why would there be no teleport wards?!

[Peelee]

Ok hold on. This should in no way work. If the room is designed for high level casters, and no one is allowed to leave the room right now, then why would there be no teleport wards?!

Because Teleport is not a standard Cleric spell?

[Blue Tempest]

Because Teleport is not a standard Cleric spell?
I find that incredibly short sighted to not account for HALF of all magic.

Also, since no one is allowed to leave the room to prevent such things, then wouldn't doing so be against the rules and thus his vote is no longer valid?

[Bongos]

Well it looks as if Durkon finally gets to go home.

Just as the Oracle said.

He should be very happy.

[Peelee]

I find that incredibly short sighted to not account for HALF of all magic.

Also, since no one is allowed to leave the room to prevent such things, then wouldn't doing so be against the rules and thus his vote is no longer valid?



Yeah, those almost sound like the sorts of thing that might be dealt with further in future comics. Weird.

Also, they accounted for the half of magic that counts. Wizards arent high priests. Clerics are.

[happycrow]

So Dvalin's vote will be counter to the will of the clans (their domination being a facsimile, not will), and hence the entire bargain void?

[Blue Tempest]

Also, they accounted for the half of magic that counts. Wizards arent high priests. Clerics are.

So... what, a gathering of Clerics would in no way ever possibly be attacked, and accounting for Arcane magic, literally half of ALL magic should in no way be considered?

[Peelee]

So... what, a gathering of Clerics would in no way ever possibly be attacked, and accounting for Arcane magic, literally half of ALL magic should in no way be considered?

Fun fact. Arcane magic isnt half of all magic. It's one of two systems to use magic, but most spells are shared. It's a much, much smaller percentage. Also, see the Giant's quote for any further issues.

[oskeladden]

"I" is singular.

I am not going to vote.
I was going to, but now I am not.
However, if I were to vote.....

English is funny. If "were" can be second-person singular simple past tense indicative of be, then any pluralized verb can be singular form when used in conjunction with a collective noun, as far as I'm concerned.

Not really. We use 'were' in your example because that sentence is in the past subjunctive (not past indicative), and 'were' is the past subjunctive form of 'to be'. It has nothing to do with using a pluralised verb form in place of a singular.

[dps]

But why do they bring snacks, then ????


It's not one of the clerics that brought snacks; it's one of their escorts.

[Mathguy]

Any reason a Sending spell directed at Dvalin wouldn't end this problem immediately and lead to a large number of incinerated vampires? "High Priest of Hel planning to dominate clan heads before vote. Take measures to make sure all voters are in their right minds before accepting result."
You miscounted, sendings can only be 25 words.

[Blue Tempest]

Fun fact. Arcane magic isnt half of all magic. It's one of two systems to use magic, but most spells are shared. It's a much, much smaller percentage. Also, see the Giant's quote for any further issues.

And not one Cleric there would bring Teleporting items?

[AbyssStalker]

Because Teleport is not a standard Cleric spell?

Word of Recall isn't a common cleric spell?!?

[Calmen]

That was awesome.

Durkon will finally complete BOTH his prophecies. He is going to get back to the Dwarven Lands, posthumously. He will also bring doom to the dwarves.

Since the prophecies are there, I have no doubt that Durkula will arrive at the Dwarven Lands and kill some elders. I´m just not sure about how is he going to be stopped.

Anyway, I just hope that the dwarves understand the screw up the prophecy that banned Durkon was and ressurect him. Or, maybe, the elf chick is his substitute as party cleric...

[Calmen]

Any reason a Sending spell directed at Dvalin wouldn't end this problem immediately and lead to a large number of incinerated vampires? "High Priest of Hel planning to dominate clan heads before vote. Take measures to make sure all voters are in their right minds before accepting result."

Dvalin WAS the first dwarven king but he is long dead. The sending only affects live subjects. And there is no dwarf there to tell who is on the council, so the Sending could work

[dtilque]

It's not one of the clerics that brought snacks; it's one of their escorts.

Nope, that's the HP of Mani, God of the Moon. The holy symbol he's wearing should have given away that he's a cleric, but you can check strip 999 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html) to see for sure.


The question I have is whether Roy is prohibited from leaving. The HPoO's phrasing is ambiguous. She says

"Let all who have a formal role remain sequestered here, so as not to influence the outcome. No attendee shall pass through this hall's arches until this issue is resolved."

Roy, being a bodyguard, is an "attendee". However, bodyguards are actually just spectators during the moot, waiting until it's over so as to escort their Priests back home. They don't have a "formal role" during the meeting. So it's arguable that he's not actually an "attendee" and can leave if he desires. Of course, if Durkula leaves, then Roy can certainly leave as well.

[Sir_Norbert]

Not really. We use 'were' in your example because that sentence is in the past subjunctive (not past indicative), and 'were' is the past subjunctive form of 'to be'. It has nothing to do with using a pluralised verb form in place of a singular.

That's almost right. It's the present subjunctive; past subjunctive would be "If I had voted...."

[Ron Miel]

Ok hold on. This should in no way work. If the room is designed for high level casters, and no one is allowed to leave the room right now, then why would there be no teleport wards?!

My reading is that only the voters are sequestered. There's nothing to prevent Gontor leaving.

The "we" in the final panel refers to Durkon's several minions.

[Peelee]

And not one Cleric there would bring Teleporting items?
Why? It's a meeting to serve their gods. The gods meet through their high priests, and vote on matters. Why would a Cleric want to teleport out during a meeting that he is required to attend by the god that he serves? It's almost as if that situation is so uncommon that nobody bothered to put up teleport wards, which will bite them in the ass soon.

Too bad my argument can't be bolstrered by the author himself relying on this exact issue by hinting that such an obvious hole in their cloister might be addressed later in the comic. Something like that would have REALLY helped me out.

Word of Recall isn't a common cleric spell?!?
Point taken. See above.

[Shining Wrath]

My reading is that only the voters are sequestered. There's nothing to prevent Gontor leaving.

The "we" in the final panel refers to Durkon's several minions.

I vote against that interpretation of "we", because Vamptor is not protected from attack - and he is visible in a room with roughly a dozen "no" vote high priests. If he doesn't leave that room before he is noticed, he is going to find out what a high level cleric can do to a vampire, and it ain't pretty. Even in mist form he may be harder for Roy to hit (per OotS universe rules), but he's not harder for "Dispel Magic" followed by "Sunlight" to hit.

Time will tell.

[Roland Itiative]

Wouldn't Durkula leaving the temple be a breach of conduct for the Godsmoot, seeing how Odin's high priest just said that they must all remain there? The teleport orb means that he is now capable of leaving, but it should still have negative repercussions for him.

[Shining Wrath]

Wouldn't Durkula leaving the temple be a breach of conduct for the Godsmoot, seeing how Odin's high priest just said that they must all remain there? The teleport orb means that he is now capable of leaving, but it should still have negative repercussions for him.

Loophole: "Let no one pass the arches ..."

[lenon3579]

Also, they accounted for the half of magic that counts. Wizards arent high priests. Clerics are.

A High Priest of some God of Magic sure could have some levels on wizardry thingies... maybe even sufficient ranks on use magic device to use some teleport or dimension door or whatever else item.

I think that blames for that loopholes on the roles are on Loki. ;)

[Khallazar]

I don't know if someone mentioned this before, but....


WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THESE VAMPIRE ATTACKS!!!

[gerryq]

I don't know how Durkon will be getting out of there without invalidating Hel's vote, but I have no doubt he will because of those two prophecies made about his return home. He will bring death and destruction, and he will do it posthumously.

Maybe Durkon's undead mob can start to collapse the building. Then *everyone* will have to get out.

[Roland Itiative]

Loophole: "Let no one pass the arches ..."

It's not such a valid loophole when you take the previous sentence into account. "Let all who have a formal role remain sequestered here, so as not to influence the outcome" is definitely not going to happen if one of the high priests teleports out of there.

Durkula having one of his vampire minions dominate the elders would have been a loophole (they have no formal role in the proceedings, so they can leave at any moment, much like the bodyguards), but getting out himself is not.

[Mad Humanist]

I wonder if Durkon's Mama will turn out to be one of the elders.

[DaggerPen]

I wonder if Durkon's Mama will turn out to be one of the elders.

... ha

Haha

Hahhahahahahaaaaaa

Oh my god, I think you called it. That's too perfect not to use.

[ORione]

I wonder how the Northern emissaries to the Western and Southern Godsmoots are doing. "The Northern Pantheon votes... a tie. Okay, they're getting their demigods... hang on, one of them wants to consult the dwarves before voting. Please stand by."

[rodneyAnonymous]

The Dwarven Council doesn't get to cast a godsmoot vote, Dvalin only vowed to ask their opinion, he is not bound to go along with it.

[Alyse Luciel]

This would not have been possible before the revised rules on schools right? I don't remember the comic, but V said that he could have cast teleport by the old rules.

So did Hel plan 3e edition, or was it a lucky break? :)

[Keltest]

The Dwarven Council doesn't get to cast a godsmoot vote, Dvalin only vowed to ask their opinion, he is not bound to go along with it.

Actually, he is.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I don't see that stated anywhere.

Oh, reading again, I see that he promised to obey their will. Hm.

[Eireannx]

Wouldn't Durkula leaving the temple be a breach of conduct for the Godsmoot, seeing how Odin's high priest just said that they must all remain there? The teleport orb means that he is now capable of leaving, but it should still have negative repercussions for him.

We're assuming that Odin's high priest is using rules of the Godsmoot and not just being a leader and giving instructions. There may be no real consequences to ignoring him beyond passive aggressive messages back at the temple.

[dps]

I don't see that stated anywhere.

Oh, reading again, I see that he promised to obey their will. Hm.

He's bound by his own vow, not the rules of the Godsmoot.

[Prospekt]

I'm admittedly getting a biiiit tired of the, "Ohhhhhh but there's another tie!" situation going on. I love this arc so far, with the tension, the drama, and not to forget the awesome fight scene either. I'm torn, because I like the conflict being drawn out more rather than ending in two strips, and Hel's ambition here deserves a good sized story, but it does feel kind of repetitive. I guess it's a worry that the head of the Dwarven Clans is gonna be another tie among them as well.

[rodneyAnonymous]

He's bound by his own vow, not the rules of the Godsmoot.

I realize that. I meant his vow was to ask them, not to adhere to their answer. I am mistaken, though.

[ti'esar]

I think for a demigod who is pretty much the apex of dwarvishness, it doesn't really matter whether it's the Godsmoot or a personal vow - he'll be equally bound by it either way.

[Idiotic_Bird]

Hey what if Durkula pops back to the dwarven lands, and his mum stops him? That'd be so cool though. But he still has to fulfil both prophecies...

EDIT: And also, the high priest of Odin did say 'no attendee shall pass through this hall's arches...'
Uh oh. Big time.

[Ganurath]

*pops in from arbitrarily long hiatus*

Dvalin swore to obey the will of the Council, not its words. What are the odds that an attentive deity can notice mass Domination?

[goodpeople25]

*pops in from arbitrarily long hiatus*

Dvalin swore to obey the will of the Council, not its words. What are the odds that an attentive deity can notice mass Domination?
Well rulewise it's a DC 15 sense motive check, so from my understanding of the rules (reading the srd for fun so not great) pretty damn good odds as quite possibly has enough bonues to make it by taking 10 (he gets +1-5 for being a demigod as well) i think that's right anyway. But i would say attentive is the key word. Cause i think it is a valid interpretation of sense motive that you don't automatically get to make a check without reason. I think it is plausible to go either way if it comes to that. Especially if they just give him their answer with miminal interaction.

[ORione]

Well rulewise it's a DC 15 sense motive check, so from my understanding of the rules (reading the srd for fun so not great) pretty damn good odds as quite possibly has enough bonues to make it by taking 10 (he gets +1-5 for being a demigod as well) i think that's right anyway. But i would say attentive is the key word. Cause i think it is a valid interpretation of sense motive that you don't automatically get to make a check without reason. I think it is plausible to go either way if it comes to that. Especially if they just give him their answer with miminal interaction.

I bet that dwarven elders voting to condemn their people to Hel would be a reason for suspicion.

[Basement Cat]

This is the first time that I am unimpressed.

Yeah...we can do that...the bad guy thing...

I'm sorry.

[Cazero]

Reminding people that Heimdal, god of the Watch, voted yes because it's the cautious thing to do. Dwarven elder could conceivably do the same with an added notch of self-sacrifice.
And vampires are darn good at acting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0987.html), and can make dominated people act on their behalf (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0968.html). They're not planning to make it go like "yes-we-dwarven-elder-totaly-not-domiated-decide-to-destroy-the-world-and-sentence-our-own-race-to-an-eternity-of-slavery". They're planning to make it go like "Heimdal has the right idea. Considering the threat, the sacrifice of the entire dwarven race and the new rulership of the Northern Pantheon seems a pretty small price to pay for safety. We willingly sacrifice our people as it is the right thing to do."

[goodpeople25]

I bet that dwarven elders voting to condemn their people to Hel would be a reason for suspicion.
Depends on the reasoning, i think it's possible to give the elders a script to follow, and it isn't completely far fetched that they would decide to have all the dwarves go to Hel possibly with them giving the reasoning that perhaps making the decision will count the deaths as an honourable sacrifice instead of a dishonourable one (heck that might actually have a chance at working if they weren't dominated, and i think Durkula is the type to appreciate the irony) than take a risk that the entirety of the world souls will be destroyed permanently.

[Mightymosy]

I think the most likely way for this to work is that the voting of the dwarven kings is also done by some kind of proxy.
Like, for instance, they lit up mountain tops in the LotR to send a message over a long distance.
Green flame = yes; red flame = no.
Or something like that, which makes meeting face to face not necessary.
Reasons will be that travelling to meet in person would take too long, and storywise this would give domination away.
In a world with teleport and sending spells, it would be a bit strange, but there could be reasons why those can't be used. This whole affair so far has been a bit on the "rules-lawyery" type, so maybe the trend continues. (I mean, the are "reasons" why persons vote on behalf of their gods to have the world get destroyed, and other people not interfering because they rather choose to follow some stupid rules, and on top of all that a demigod who needs to ask the worldly leaders of his followers if he should vote to destroy their world or maybe not. Maybe all dwarves swore an oath that they mustn't use sending spells to other dwarves. Who knows? That would also explain why Durkon never called Mommy).



Another possible way to go would be to dominate loved ones - make the dwarven kings choose to condem their people or their family. Maybe throw in some way of saving those specifically from Hel if their king or queen votes the "right" way in order to bribe them....

[Lorkas]

Is it just me, or are Durkula's wounds not fast healing?

[AcerbicOrb]

Is it just me, or are Durkula's wounds not fast healing?

Maybe that's something to do with the Starmetal Sword and the green fire?

[Shining Wrath]

Is it just me, or are Durkula's wounds not fast healing?

Agreed. That's very odd.

[Lorkas]

Maybe that's something to do with the Starmetal Sword and the green fire?

I was thinking the same.

[Deliverance]

Great. Now even the vampires are channeling Tarquin. Just bloody great.

[bookguy]

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but I think it's funny that Thor can't even remember the name of the first dwarven king correctly. He's such a buffoon.

[a1chemi]

Great. Now even the vampires are channeling Tarquin. Just bloody great.

A lot of people seem to be making this complaint, but this comic has a long history of main villains breaking the fourth wall and having a flair for the dramatic.

Remember the Monster in the Darkness (attempted) reveal? Or Xykon offering to let Roy go so they can have a more satisfying encounter later (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html)?

This is just how the villains act in OotS.

[rbetieh]

I bet that dwarven elders voting to condemn their people to Hel would be a reason for suspicion.

Not entirely. There is a gate close enough to the Dwarven lands to warrant a reasonable dwarf leader to conclude that even if the Gods undo the world moments after the release of the snarl, many dwarf souls will be completely undone by the snarl and lost forever. Some Dwarves may actually presume that Hel is better than Oblivion.

I would guess that even without Domination, the vote would not be 100% against destroying the world now. I would also guess that the actual vote does not happen because this is the perfect time for Xykon to make a move on the last gate.

[ardorrean_thief]

This like watching a speeder getting out of a ticket by comparing his speed relative the rotation of the earth, and speed of the milky way relative to another car in the Andromeda galaxy.

Hmmm, not quite, as far as I know. If you're comparing your speed relative to the rotation of the earth, then you would have to also factor in the rotation of the earth's effect on your speed. So if you were driving at 80 MPH vs a 60 MPH speed limit, then your speed would still be [speed of rotation in mph] + 80, vs [speed of rotation in mph] + 60. In both cases, you're still gonna get that ticket. xP

[Wowlock]

come on now...You can't just 'vampirify' the elders and call it a fair voting. There has to be some other law that saying 'If your elders got dominated by evil beings, their authority on your people's souls and the like, here-by forfeit'' or something like that. They would be undead and therefore their 'votes' on the assembly would be null and void. Unless Dwarves suddenly started letting their undead elders to vote on critical matters.

[lenon3579]

Not entirely. There is a gate close enough to the Dwarven lands to warrant a reasonable dwarf leader to conclude that even if the Gods undo the world moments after the release of the snarl, many dwarf souls will be completely undone by the snarl and lost forever. Some Dwarves may actually presume that Hel is better than Oblivion.

I would guess that even without Domination, the vote would not be 100% against destroying the world now. I would also guess that the actual vote does not happen because this is the perfect time for Xykon to make a move on the last gate.

I was thinking something similar. I don't think they moving on to the last gate yet... but certainly right now, with all that tension rising, would be a perfect moment to do a cutaway to what the main villains are doing.

Man, the cliff itself is hangin'.

[Kish]

At least Durkula won't have its game breaking staff anymore.
Why would the High Priest of Hel no longer have his staff?

[Keltest]

Why would the High Priest of Hel no longer have his staff?

Its currently on the ground somewhere outside of the antilife sphere. He cant reach it without exiting the sphere, since the sphere cant displace Roy.

[Deliverance]

A lot of people seem to be making this complaint, but this comic has a long history of main villains breaking the fourth wall and having a flair for the dramatic.

Remember the Monster in the Darkness (attempted) reveal? Or Xykon offering to let Roy go so they can have a more satisfying encounter later (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html)?

This is just how the villains act in OotS.
I'm afraid you misunderstood my post. :smallsmile:

1) When I said "Great. Now even the vampires are channeling Tarquin. Just bloody great." it was not a complaint about the story or the writing, but how I perceived the vampires as acting.

2) It was an observation that had nothing to do with breaking the 4th wall and everything to do with exactly what was said. (In fact, I've got a hard time seeing any 4th wall breaking going on in #1016. At worst it is taking a gentle knocking. Everything the vampires say works in the in-world context with the priests and Roy as the audience, who shouldn't have heard the domination plan, which is what makes it so delicious.)

3) Villains making dramatic revelations is par for the course in OOTS. Talking about how great the timing of a revelation is for dramatic reasons and how that totally makes it worth the cost... THAT.. is something that reminds me of Tarquin (and Elan before the Empire of Blood).

Compare final panels of:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0723.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html

Hence my "the vampires are channeling Tarquin" comment. :smallcool:

[Shining Wrath]

I'm thinking the HPoH needs his staff unless he's got Protection from Sunlight researched and memorized. But he did say he was going to finish that research, so that's actually likely.

If the HPoH does not teleport out, he and Roy are going to have a rather intense two days once that anti-life shield drops. And if Vamptor does not teleport out, he's going to have rather intense next 30 seconds once almost any of the "No" clerics notice he's a vampire, not protected by Moot rules, standing right there plotting evil deeds.

Next strip set in this room will probably feature a sudden departure early on.

[Kish]

I'm afraid you misunderstood my post. :smallsmile:

1) When I said "Great. Now even the vampires are channeling Tarquin. Just bloody great." it was not a complaint about the story or the writing, but how I perceived the vampires as acting.

2) It was an observation that had nothing to do with breaking the 4th wall and everything to do with exactly what was said. (In fact, I've got a hard time seeing any 4th wall breaking going on in #1016. At worst it is taking a gentle knocking. Everything the vampires say works in the in-world context with the priests and Roy as the audience, who shouldn't have heard the domination plan, which is what makes it so delicious.)

3) Villains making dramatic revelations is par for the course in OOTS. Talking about how great the timing of a revelation is for dramatic reasons and how that totally makes it worth the cost... THAT.. is something that reminds me of Tarquin (and Elan before the Empire of Blood).

Compare final panels of:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0723.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html

You left out this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0370.html) and this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0103.html).

"Tarquin introduced the concept of villains caring about proper drama" belongs in the bin with "a certain author who shall remain nameless invented the concept of characters dying without it being massively telegraphed in advance."

[Asteroid Bomb]

I think it's safe to say that the High Priest of Hell is the Arc Villain of Book 6. I'm surprised The Giant has room for another one with only one gate left. Redcloak's ritual must have a really, really, really, really long casting time.

[ORione]

I think it's safe to say that the High Priest of Hell is the Arc Villain of Book 6. I'm surprised The Giant has room for another one with only one gate left. Redcloak's ritual must have a really, really, really, really long casting time.

A few weeks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html). Plus, it might take them a while to get through Serini's monsters.

[8BitNinja]

We haven't even discussed the possibility of using the force, that seems to work out

[KorvinStarmast]

We haven't even discussed the possibility of using the force, that seems to work outAre we back on the psionics jag here?

[LordRahl6]

Definitely, the Plot of the HPoH is coming together. Even though it relies on Hel knowing how each and every god and demigod was going to vote. Mostly through intuition on some and bribery on most of the rest.:smallamused: Now how will Roy stop this in time?:smalleek:

[Doug Lampert]

Definitely, the Plot of the HPoH is coming together. Even though it relies on Hel knowing how each and every god and demigod was going to vote. Mostly through intuition on some and bribery on most of the rest.:smallamused: Now how will Roy stop this in time?:smalleek:

Nah, she was wrong on one, we saw this on screen, but she had a backup for that.

[ken]

We haven't even discussed the possibility of using the force, that seems to work out

Mass times Acceleration?

ken

[Kish]

And "power of the force" would be distance times the derivative with respect to time.

[BannedInSchool]

Mass times Acceleration?
Or change in momentum with respect to time.

Sith probably prefer impulse.

(Does the bottom of the class Padawan have to wear a dunce helmet with "Poor Impulse Control" on it?)

[Skull the Troll]

I bet that dwarven elders voting to condemn their people to Hel would be a reason for suspicion.

Unless they give "We will sacrifice ourselves to protect the world from unmaking..." That's a pretty Dwarven thing to do.

[Keltest]

Unless they give "We will sacrifice ourselves to protect the world from unmaking..." That's a pretty Dwarven thing to do.

While this is true, Loki brought up a rather compelling argument that such a sacrifice probably isn't necessary even if the gate quest does go the rest of the way sideways.