Thieflock (first time 5e help)

[AeonsShadow]

I'm making a rogue/warlock for this game I am joining, this is my first time playing 5e so I'm a little nervous and unsure about a few things that I would like some help with.


My plan is to make a mostly warlock character, and my DM has allowed me the honor of using the Titan Patron (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?369307-New-Warlock-Patron-The-Titan) with pact of the tome as a Kalastar human subrace (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Human_Subrace_Feats_(5e_Race_Variant)).


I want to throw in some more utility for thieving and general suave, so I was thinking either rogue or bard. My question is how much should I dip into one of said classes, as I plan on being more utility than blaster.


and on another note of casters, warlocks page says they have two spell slots.... does that mean they only have two spell slots PERIOD? Or just 2 spell slots at each spell level?

[MightyDog16]

I'm making a rogue/warlock for this game I am joining, this is my first time playing 5e so I'm a little nervous and unsure about a few things that I would like some help with.


My plan is to make a mostly warlock character, and my DM has allowed me the honor of using the Titan Patron (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?369307-New-Warlock-Patron-The-Titan) with pact of the tome as a Kalastar human subrace (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Human_Subrace_Feats_(5e_Race_Variant)).


I want to throw in some more utility for thieving and general suave, so I was thinking either rogue or bard. My question is how much should I dip into one of said classes, as I plan on being more utility than blaster.


and on another note of casters, warlocks page says they have two spell slots.... does that mean they only have two spell slots PERIOD? Or just 2 spell slots at each spell level?


1) I'd start with 1 level of rogue so you get the extra skill proficiencies, the 1 warlock so you get some spells, then get 2 more in rogue and get the thief subclass, then you're on your way.

2) you start with 2 spell slots and gain more as you level up in warlock. One of the biggest upsides to warlock is that you regain spell slots on short rests.

[AeonsShadow]

1) I'd start with 1 level of rogue so you get the extra skill proficiencies, the 1 warlock so you get some spells, then get 2 more in rogue and get the thief subclass, then you're on your way.
Mkay, and I forgot to say that it is gonna be a lvl 7 since the game I'm joining is ongoing and I'm just joining the group.



2) you start with 2 spell slots and gain more as you level up in warlock. One of the biggest upsides to warlock is that you regain spell slots on short rests.

that makes more sense to me. so only two spells in a battle... better make them COUNT.

[MrStabby]

So recently I have been playing around with trickery clerics and would suggest you not rule that dip out if you want a shadowy, tricky, thief type person.

2 encounters per short rest you can use a duplicate for all sorts of tricks, and at worst just use it to get advantage on all attacks.

You get a level of caster to boost spell slots and some proficiencies and skills with only one level (need a 13 wisdom though).

[Corran]

If you want rogue/warlock, and you want to focus on warlock and you are starting at level 7, I would suggest rogue2/warlock5 for cunning action and 3nd level spells. Take Booming Blade (SCAG) as one of your cantrips and pair it with cunning action (disengage) and move away from what you hit, so if it follows you it will take damage. Another little trick is to take the devil's sight invocation and then cast darkness on you, and each round you hit someone with BB, move away w/o provoking OA (cause of darkness) and use cunning action to hide so the enemies dont know where you are at. This might not work well with your teammates, but it is a good strategy to employ if you are scouting ahead and something goes wrong. After level 5 continue with warlock levels, perhaps take a third level in rogue if an archtype appeals to you.

If you are not dead set on warlock, have look at rogue/trickery cleric as suggested by MrStabby, it has the rogue feel and your spellcasting is more flexible.

[Felvion]

From all the casters in 5th, the one i'd never multiclass would be the warlock. I understand that some people find a dip in warlock appealing due to either rp or mechanical reasons. On the other hand, if warlock is going to be the main class i wouldn't multiclass at all.
I feel the class provides so much utility through invocations that multiclassing is pointless unless you want really specific stuff. I mean, you can get limitless disguise self and minor illusion right from level 2. Also as a tomelock you get more cantrips which means even more utility. You can take shillelagh for those times you need to go in close combat and fill up with thaumaturgy, guidance (your kind of expertise) or whatever you may need from any list.
You should also invest in book of the ancients invocation to start gathering all the rituals you can find. This means you can outright get a familiar which is quite different in 5th than it used to be and is actually an excellent scout (you can see through its eyes as an action and telepathetically communicate within some range). It can even change form if you have 10 minutes to cast the ritual again!
Here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471722-Know-Your-Rites-A-Guide-to-Ritual-Casting-(Oraibi)) you can find some help about the rituals.
A rogue brings nice stuff to the table but not much compared to a straight warlock. Kalastars' ability of keeping two concentrations spells at the same time means you can do great things with your spells. What is that much important to slow down your spell progression?
Keep in mind that if you plan to heavily invest in utility you may lose a bit in terms of damage. The most difficult part of playing a warlock is trying to make the best out of your 2 spellslots per rest which a kinda makes it a race to level 11 sometimes. The are magic items that can help you overcome this hard part (7-11) such as rod of the pact keeper and ring of spell storing.
Since you are new to 5th i'd suggest you go through some (if not all) of the warlock guides on the site, they are all helpfull and may give you more ideas on how to utilise the class better.
Anyway, i hope i made my point on straight warlock in a constructive way. Keep in mind that in 5th, bounded accuracy keeps the game balanced and no matter what you do, you have to try too hard to do something mechanicaly bad. Have fun with your character and pick whatever feels more natural and close to the rp you have in mind!

[MrStabby]

I have to disagree with Felvion. There are some good points made but I think warlock is pretty solid for multiclassing for a few reasons.

1) Invocations. At level two you get the two most important ones for your character. With the exception of some level dependant ones that means after that point you have already taken the most important ones for your character and diminishing returns kick in.

2) So much power comes from eldritch blast and agonising blast. This gives you a lot of multiclass freedom because so long as you stick with high charisma and two levels of warlock you will always retain reasonable damage and utility as a blaster.

3) At high levels the warlock is a pretty poor caster. Incarnums are not spell slots, you cannot upcast spells from them in higher slots, you get a choice of one spell per level, spells are chosen from a pretty limited list and you (slightly) fall behind on high level spells cast at high levels.

4) Warlock uses CHA. It is a pretty important stat for a lot of classes so it isn't that painful for many characters to have at a decent level.


I will say that warlocks are pretty poor for multiclassing with other full casters due to lack of scaling spell slots unless you have something specific in mind (like free replenishing of arcane ward) but they can add a huge amount of versatility to other classes just through a few spells. If you have a concept in mind for paladin and ranger they can be good (as an example) you can take the fact that they give you low level spells but you can have a lot more uses per day from them. If you want to ensnare everything you hit a dip of warlock from a ranger can add quite some staying power - likewise if you mainly want shield from your eldritch knight but want it more times per day.

Generally I would say that if you want to add warlock to your character it is a pretty small number of levels you want but even then there are some exceptions. If you want to screw with your DM you can just save your spell slots for counterspell (say take 6 levels in warlock, pick up dark ones own luck, bard jack of all trades at level 2 to boost) to be able to cast counterspell pretty much every encounter with some serious bonuses - and as you can get so much scalling power from your cantrip anyway you don't have to worry so much about not reaching high level spells (this was just intended as an example of how you can use warlock to do some stuff multiclassed, where the concept doesn't need full investment in the class.

[bid]

Warlock only have 2 slots (total) per *short* rest until level 11 when they get a 3rd and start getting high level spells. They depend heavily on their eldritch invocations to compensate. As long as you get enough short rests, you're golden.

If you pick AT rogue 3 it will will add 2 level-1 slots per long rest and mage hand. I think that's the best utility you can get.

Tomelock is also best for utilities as it alllows you to cast ritual spells (book of ancient secrets invocation) and you can pick cleric cantrips (guidance anyone?) as a bonus. It is a good fit with titan.

Since you start level 7, I suggest rogue 2 then warlock 5 for fireball. Get your 3rd rogue later on, once you see what your warlock lacks. You should start Str10 Dex14 Con14 Int10 Wis10 Cha16, adjusted to match your concept. Your first ASI should be Cha+2, but inspiring leader is almost better.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I don't know which Pact Boon you're planning to choose, but if you go with Pact of the Blade, the Rogue's Swashbuckler archetype is an excellent fit.

[Malknafein]

What about Half Elf Lore Bard 4/ Warclock 2/Cleric of Knowledge 1? Great skillmonkey, support and secondary damage dealer. At 1st ASI raise CHA to 18.

As invocations take Agonisinig Blast and Beguiling Influence.

Skills:

Half Elf - 2
Background - 2
Bard - 3
College of Lore - 3
Beguiling Influence - 2
Knowledge Domain - 2

You will be proficient with 14/18 skills, with double proficiency at 2 knowledge skills(Knowledge Domain) and 2 any other skills(Bard`s Expertise). At remaining 4 skills you will have half proficiency bonus(Jack of All Trades).

Languages: Common, Elven and 3 any(1 from Half Elf and 2 from Knowledge Domain).

Cantrips: 3 from bard, 3 from cleric and 2 from warlock. You need Eldritch Blast for damage and Guidance for skills.

Spellcasting of 5th level character, with spells known of 4th level bard and 1st level cleric. Acces to some cool warlock-only spell, like Hex and Armor of Agathys. Ability to regain 2 warlock`s 1st level spell slots at short rest.

As warlock`s patron I recommend Archfey for CHA based debuff.

Bard also grants some nice abilities - Bardic Inspiration(d6) 4 times/day and Song of Rest for minor healing during short rests. Cleric grants medium armor and shields proficiency.

Eldritch Blast+Hex deals 2 beams 1d10+1d6+4 damage each. Average 26 damage if both will hit.

[Finieous]

I like the multiclass (and the Gray Mouser character concept), but I'd mostly multiclass rogue for combat capability. If you just want "thief" utility, take Urchin or Criminal background and Human or Half-Elf for the extra skills, and you'll have a nice selection of proficiencies starting at 1st level. You can even bypass the social skills at the start and pick up the invocation that grants Deception and Persuasion (IIRC) later. Half-Elf Urchin, for example, you can start with Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Perception, Athletics, Investigation, Arcana and Thieves' Tools proficiencies. As a tome warlock, you can pick up the guidance cantrip for a nice bonus on pretty much any ability (skill) check you make, at least out of combat, and Fiend will give you Dark One's Own Luck for yet another skill bonus you can use when needed. You can be a versatile and effective "thief" without spending levels on the rogue class.

[MrStabby]

And if you want expertise bard may be a bit better for you.

[Rusvul]

...Woah.

Your DM approved Kalashtar? That... Seems like a mistake.



- You learn the message cantrip. Your spellcasting ability for that cantrip is charisma, and the spell does not require the normal verbal or somatic components. Furthermore, if you use this cantrip to target another Kalastar, you may use it as a bonus action.
- Kalastar have resistance to psychic damage.
- Kalastar may maintain concentration on up to two spells or effects at once.

Emphasis mine.

I could be overvaluing it... But I don't think so. As-written, it seems hard to justify playing a spellcaster of any other race. That is the only effect in the game which lets you do that- a Sorcerer can concentrate on two iterations of the same spell, but you can use Hex twice on the same target, or Fly while having Stoneskin up. I'd caution your DM against allowing that at all. But if they think it's fine, then abuse that for all it's worth. It may be worth taking Resilient (CON) or War Caster to help keep your Concentration. You might consider taking a Sorcerer dip, as well, for the all-powerful ability to concentrate on four iterations of a spell.

Rogue seems like kind of a poor choice when compared to the CHA-centered Bard. Still, it could be made to work.

[Occasional Sage]

*snip*
I could be overvaluing it... But I don't think so.
*snip*


You are not.

[AeonsShadow]

Warlock only have 2 slots (total) per *short* rest until level 11 when they get a 3rd and start getting high level spells. They depend heavily on their eldritch invocations to compensate. As long as you get enough short rests, you're golden.

If you pick AT rogue 3 it will will add 2 level-1 slots per long rest and mage hand. I think that's the best utility you can get.

Tomelock is also best for utilities as it alllows you to cast ritual spells (book of ancient secrets invocation) and you can pick cleric cantrips (guidance anyone?) as a bonus. It is a good fit with titan.

Since you start level 7, I suggest rogue 2 then warlock 5 for fireball. Get your 3rd rogue later on, once you see what your warlock lacks. You should start Str10 Dex14 Con14 Int10 Wis10 Cha16, adjusted to match your concept. Your first ASI should be Cha+2, but inspiring leader is almost better.

I plan on going pact of the Tome, and with my first level pact ability, I should be able to have basically anything I need in hand from lockpicks to blades so long as I have a bag of dust on me.

My racial ability will allow me to keep my team safe and buffed so long as I am on the look out, and combined with whatever cantrips I take as a tome I should have the party covered in that aspect.

honestly the only thing I need to do is somehow fit THE TITAN into the backstory of an aristocratic thief.... and then survive my first game

[Onerai]

Another fun ability you may wish to consider: there's a Warlock invocation called "One With Shadow" which allows you to turn invisible as long as you are in a shadowy or darker area and holding still. Whilst this is somewhat situational, it has great utility for a stealthy character, and gets even funnier once you add some rogue into the mix since you can Hide as a bonus action and the invisibility can be used to trigger your sneak attack.

Depending upon your DM, you may also want to consider the Assassin Rogue Archetype for the ability to auto-crit surprised foes. I believe that 5th edition's RAW state that "surprise" only affects the first round of combat, but I've met several DMs who were willing to rule that exceptional circumstances might allow you to surprise a foe after the first round (YMMV with this, but I think it's loads of fun). Since the default rules cause foes to become aware of you when you move out of hiding and approach them, my method for getting around this was to blink directly to them from hiding (and usually invisible) using the "Misty Step" Warlock spell, then gut them with an assassin's critical sneak attack. Surprise!:smalltongue: *stab*

[Tenmujiin]

I could be overvaluing it...

On any other class I'd agree but warlocks only get two spells per short rest anyway so they wouldn't be casting more than one most fights (it does allow for hex to be held between fights without worrying about it being canceled by other spells but even then.

The races on that page are completely unbalanced though, the half-vamp is brokenly bad (you can't be healed and instead get a bad (worse than just swinging a sword bad) at will attack) but flavorful, the planetouched is about right, trading some of the power from tiefling for the players ability to choose spells, the kalistar is just broken and the darkfolk are just weird as a PC race.


But if they think it's fine, then abuse that for all it's worth.

Whatever you do DON'T abuse it, thats a great way to make the DM stop trusting you with homebrew and to ruin the game for everyone else.

[AeonsShadow]

Whatever you do DON'T abuse it, thats a great way to make the DM stop trusting you with homebrew and to ruin the game for everyone else.

I SOLEMNLY SWEAR I AM UP TO NO GOOD.

but in all truth i have been looking about in the flavor of my backstory and might just go pure human. our characters are passing through the multiverse after all from what I've been told.

[Ruslan]

Yeah, the ability to concentrate on two spells at once is broken. Reminds me why I blanket-ban dandwiki in my games.

[AeonsShadow]

On another note, I'm thinking of giving my character either a dragon pistol with alchemical ammos or a caster gun as seen here. (http://hedgegm.blogspot.com/2015/02/magic-guns-firearms-modification-in-d.html?m=1) and have the bullets filled with control spells i can use as a warlock. Thonk a dm might allow it?

[Rusvul]

If your DM will let you take a sub race that allows you to concentrate on two things at once? Seems likely.

I'm AFB so I can't compare it to a Ring of Spell Storing, but 6 spells of 3rd level or below just sitting in storage seems pretty powerful for a Rare item. Not sure where the party lies in terms of power though, if you've got lots of homebrew in your game it might be just fine.

[Vogonjeltz]

, but you can use Hex twice on the same target

No, you can't. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine (PHB 205)