Death From Above

[Brunks]

Hi guys! I'm dealing with some interesting mechanics in my 3.5 campaign and was looking for some ruling advice/RAW interpretations.

I have a player who's a huge sized dungeoncrasher fighter. He has taken up teleporting above his enemies and simply crushing them. Using magic items to teleport as move action. He uses boots of agile landing to make sure he lands on his feet.

For now I've ruled it using the Falling Objects rules, giving his enemies a DC15 reflex save or take 20d6 damage. (Do creatures even count as objects in this case?)
Are there any specific rules for this scenario?

What check or save do you use to avoid falling objects? What should determine the DC?

On a failed save, what should happen to the target? Should it be prone? Grappled? Pinned under several tons of anger?

On a successful save, does the target just move out of his squares? Does that provoke?

What happens if the target is flying? Does it fall with him?

I'm sure he's not the first one to come up with a tactic like this, but I couldn't find much on it. It's a limited a limited strategy, so I'm fine with him using it, but I do want a to make an informed ruling.
Any help is appreciated!

[Droopy McCool]

I actually used this (without the teleporting) to recreate Mario, but made Jump checks every time. It was pretty great.

That said, the Dungeoncrasher ACF specifically uses Bull Rushes to inflict damage when pushing a creature into a solid object, which could be a wall, tree, floor, etc.

So, he teleports and uses the rules for a standard Bull Rush:


Initiating a Bull Rush
First, you move into the defender’s space. Doing this provokes an attack of opportunity from each opponent that threatens you, including the defender. (If you have the Improved Bull Rush feat, you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender.) Any attack of opportunity made by anyone other than the defender against you during a bull rush has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting the defender instead, and any attack of opportunity by anyone other than you against the defender likewise has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting you. (When someone makes an attack of opportunity, make the attack roll and then roll to see whether the attack went astray.)

Second, you and the defender make opposed Strength checks. You each add a +4 bonus for each size category you are larger than Medium or a -4 penalty for each size category you are smaller than Medium. You get a +2 bonus if you are charging. The defender gets a +4 bonus if he has more than two legs or is otherwise exceptionally stable.

Bull Rush Results
If you beat the defender’s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet. If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You can’t, however, exceed your normal movement limit. (Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved. So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.)

If you fail to beat the defender’s Strength check result, you move 5 feet straight back to where you were before you moved into his space. If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space.

Because he is falling, I would say he gets the +2 like from a charge, but now we're entering non-RAW territory. I would also say that the target falls prone if he fails a DC15 Ref save after and completely separate from the Bull Rush. Rule as you see fit.

As for the damage, this attack specifically deals 4d6+str*2 at level 2 and 8d6+str*3 at level 6.

McCool

[Curmudgeon]

Hi guys! I'm dealing with some interesting mechanics in my 3.5 campaign and was looking for some ruling advice/RAW interpretations.

I have a player who's a huge sized dungeoncrasher fighter. He has taken up teleporting above his enemies and simply crushing them.
That doesn't work if the enemy is aleady adjacent to a wall (or the ground, or whatever substitutes for a wall).
In addition, you gain a special benefit when making a bull rush. If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your momentum crushes him against it If they're already next to the wall, you can't force the opponent to move into it; there's no movement (change of square) possible. Remember, Dungeon Crasher is just a new use of Bull Rush.
Bull Rush Results
If you beat the defender’s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet. If you don't (can't) Bull Rush the enemy 5', you don't (can't) deal crushing damage.


For now I've ruled it using the Falling Objects rules, giving his enemies a DC15 reflex save or take 20d6 damage. (Do creatures even count as objects in this case?)
Creatures never count as objects until they're dead (corpses).

creature

A living or otherwise active being, not an object. The terms "creature" and "character" are sometimes used interchangeably.

Your player is trying to pull the wool over your eyes here.

[erok0809]

What if the player weren't a dungeoncrasher, but was just taking advantage of his weight and falling onto his enemies to crush them, as opposed to calling it a downward bull rush? I think that seems to be more of the question the OP is asking, although I'm not entirely sure.

[Curmudgeon]

What if the player weren't a dungeoncrasher, but was just taking advantage of his weight and falling onto his enemies to crush them, as opposed to calling it a downward bull rush? I think that seems to be more of the question the OP is asking, although I'm not entirely sure.
The rules distinguish between creatures and objects, so creatures can't do falling object damage. And the way D&D works, it would take a feat or class ability to make an exception to that rule.

[Droopy McCool]

That doesn't work if the enemy is aleady adjacent to a wall (or the ground, or whatever substitutes for a wall). If they're already next to the wall, you can't force the opponent to move into it; there's no movement (change of square) possible. Remember, Dungeon Crasher is just a new use of Bull Rush. If you don't (can't) Bull Rush the enemy 5', you don't (can't) deal crushing damage.

Not saying this is wrong, but it is a very close reading of the RAW; I won't even call it RAI, but there would be ~2.5 feet between the creature and the 'wall' (for upright objects). Besides, in real life a charging person's momentum would crush someone against a wall whether they started 5 feet from it or pressed up against it.

When dealing with the ground, you could say the target creature 'moves' downward (when crushed) relative to its standing position (Meh), if you wanted to make this a somewhat rules-legal action.

McCool

[Curmudgeon]

When dealing with the ground, you could say the target creature 'moves' downward (when crushed) relative to its standing position (Meh), if you wanted to make this a somewhat rules-legal action.
I don't see how that works by the rules. D&D has combat modifiers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm) for sitting/kneeling and prone. What rules mechanic causes the enemy to move to one of those lower positions?

As I said before, the way D&D works you'd need either a feat or class ability to force the enemy to change position. "Because I'm big and awesome" seems to be the only justification put forth so far.

[Bronk]

I have a player who's a huge sized dungeoncrasher fighter. He has taken up teleporting above his enemies and simply crushing them. Using magic items to teleport as move action. He uses boots of agile landing to make sure he lands on his feet.

For now I've ruled it using the Falling Objects rules, giving his enemies a DC15 reflex save or take 20d6 damage. (Do creatures even count as objects in this case?)
Are there any specific rules for this scenario?

What check or save do you use to avoid falling objects? What should determine the DC?


I just wanted to point out a few things about these parts of your questions.

First, the rules for taking damage from falling 200 feet would cause the PC to take 17d6 lethal and 1d6 non lethal damage to himself. That would be 20d6, minus 2d6 from the boots, and since he's doing it intentionally, the first 1d6 is converted to nonlethal. They can also negate the damage from the first 10' of falling with a DC15 Jump or Tumble check.

Second, the specific rules for dropping objects on targets are found in Heroes of Battle page 68. You need to make an attack roll vs AC5 to hit the square you're aiming at, then the target in the square can avoid the damage with a DC15 Reflex Save.

Third, if this PC can figure out a way to do what he wants legally, he should remember that damage from falling objects maxes out not just at 20d6, but 20d6 for every 200 pounds of the object! As a huge PC (about the size of an elephant), had he noticed this, he'd have been trying to do much more damage.

[ericgrau]

It is an odd combination to try to use RAW for your damage but fuzziness for trying to make it work.

Really when there is no actual RAW rule to do what he is doing you should use crush attacks as a baseline and work from there: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm

It requires a pretty big size but really I don't expect something like this to actually work well on equal sized creatures outside of Mario games. Even when a person ambushes another person from a rooftop, the method isn't "cannonball". I mean it's hard to do much and it's hard to avoid taking about as much damage yourself if that's all you do.

[MisterKaws]

Errrm, AFAIK, he can't teleport on air unless he has means of air movement, because you can't teleport to a surface that can't handle your weight, that means he can only use it if he has airwalk or flight, and in this case he's wasting his move action to 'fall', and actually has to use the charge rules for it, because he isn't technically falling if he can fly.

[DrMotives]

As a meter stick, compare your PC to a huge dragon crushing. Notice the huge dragon can crush from above, but only on things 2 or more sizes smaller. Also, I would think real hard before I allowed the base damage of such an attack to exceed that of a same sized dragon, which is 2d8 +(1.5 str) for Huge.

[SirNMN]

The rules distinguish between creatures and objects, so creatures can't do falling object damage. And the way D&D works, it would take a feat or class ability to make an exception to that rule.

funny that I can still disarm someone with out having feat or class ability to do so


He uses boots of agile landing to make sure he lands on his feet.
what are boot of agile landing I have never seen them do you mean boots of landing MIC 77


For now I've ruled it using the Falling Objects rules, giving his enemies a DC15 reflex save or take 20d6 damage. (Do creatures even count as objects in this case?)
Are there any specific rules for this scenario?

how much damage he deals depends on his weight DMG page 303


What check or save do you use to avoid falling objects? What should determine the DC?
either go with the reflex or with the he has to hit the squares AC or the bull rush attemt not sure which


On a failed save, what should happen to the target? Should it be prone? Grappled? Pinned under several tons of anger?
might be prone but definitely not grappled or pinned he never made the grapple check,


On a successful save, does the target just move out of his squares? Does that provoke?

yes it move out from under him. No it doesn't prove. He is provoking though when he moves though there threatens square

What happens if the target is flying? Does it fall with him?

unless it can hold him up I would think so but no rules are far as I know additional The boots of landing they only spare him from 2d6 + 1d6 intentional +1d6 nonlethal first ten feet + (1d6) nonlethal if the squishy + (1d6) jumping or tumbling
see again DMG 303


Errrm, AFAIK, he can't teleport on air unless he has means of air movement, because you can't teleport to a surface that can't handle your weight, that means he can only use it if he has airwalk or flight, and in this case he's wasting his move action to 'fall', and actually has to use the charge rules for it, because he isn't technically falling if he can fly.
where are you getting that from I can't find it


As a meter stick, compare your PC to a huge dragon crushing. Notice the huge dragon can crush from above, but only on things 2 or more sizes smaller. Also, I would think real hard before I allowed the base damage of such an attack to exceed that of a same sized dragon, which is 2d8 +(1.5 str) for Huge.
keeps the dragon from taking fall damage as well so the dragon could choose to fall if it wants to

[daremetoidareyo]

Unless you houserule that one can teleport into the air, the standard assumption is that he cant. Unless of course he is using a custom magic item made by a transmuter who swapped metamagic for the ability to make any conjuration spell a transmutation spell (unearthed arcana), in which case, he might be able to do it, if he can make teleportation via transmutation transfer to an item.


This sounds like a fun tactic. Encourage him to take willing deformity: obese, so he can triple his weight, and therefor only have to fall a shorter distance, but crush with more weight. Without a way to control it, (I think there is a wing suit in some faerun book, the one with the gliding hippogriff dwarves) I am hesitant to rule it a charge unless he is teleporting into a levitation or airwalky condition and charging downward from there. But, you could argue that a tumble or jump check can do it too, I'm cool with that.

I'm not sure where the falling object damage by size is located but it is located somewhere. Here's the contest we ran on this concept. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?402795-Ridiculous-Character-Concepts-2-Slam-Dunk!&highlight=slam+dunk)

[Zakerst]

I'm away from my books but I'm pretty sure there's a feat for this kind of attack in savage species

[Curmudgeon]

funny that I can still disarm someone with out having feat or class ability to do so
Yes, but only sometimes: if you get lucky and the enemy's AoO against you misses.
Step 1

Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to disarm. (If you have the Improved Disarm feat, you don’t incur an attack of opportunity for making a disarm attempt.) If the defender’s attack of opportunity deals any damage, your disarm attempt fails.

[Rijan_Sai]

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it

Someone (don't remember who) pointed this out in a previous topic: this only applies to "creature(s) or object(s) brought into being or transported to your location..."; teleporting yourself seems to have no such restrictions.

[Darrin]

For now I've ruled it using the Falling Objects rules, giving his enemies a DC15 reflex save or take 20d6 damage. (Do creatures even count as objects in this case?)
Are there any specific rules for this scenario?


Not really. Curmudgeon has already weighed in on some of the RAW stuff, but that's not really going to help you much. You're going to have to come up with some house rules that will be functional for your game.



What check or save do you use to avoid falling objects? What should determine the DC?


According to Heroes of Battle, heavy objects dropped from above the target are (sorta) covered by the Aerial Bombardment rules (HoB pp. 67-68). Unfortunately, these rules are barely functional, make reference to more rules later on that don't exist, and don't really apply to falling creatures. As far as the save goes, it says Ref save DC 15 to avoid damage. So you're already following the rules so far.

The Aerial Bombardment rules also mention a ranged attack roll, and to hit a particular square is AC 5. It's not really possible to be proficient with hurling your own body at the ground, so a -4 nonproficiency penalty applies. There's also a penalty for maneuverability, but I'm assuming your bellyflopper doesn't have a fly speed, so... I guess we have to go with -6 for "clumsy" because anything worse than clumsy isn't listed as an option. You could increase the penalty to -8 or -10 for not having a fly speed at all, if you like. The problem with the attack roll is even if the attack misses, you drift at most 5', so a huge object/creature is going to hit the target square even on a missed attack roll.



On a failed save, what should happen to the target? Should it be prone? Grappled? Pinned under several tons of anger?

On a successful save, does the target just move out of his squares? Does that provoke?


This is a house rule, but I would treat it as sort of like unavoidable Overrun attempt (no action cost):

1) Entering the target's square provokes an AoO from the target. If the target has reach, the dropper may provoke an AoO for moving through a threatened square directly above the target. Resolve the AoO. A successful AoO does not stop the rest of the fall from happening.

2) Target does not get an opportunity to avoid, but this is probably a good spot to make the Ref save. If the Ref save fails, the target takes falling object damage as determined by the weight of the dropper and the distance dropped. (Note: in the DMG, falling object damage has two components, weight and distance, and only distance is capped at 20d6. In the Rules Compendium, they changed this rule so that all damage from falling objects is capped at 20d6.) Dropper takes damage as a normal fall (generally negated by the Boots of Landing, catfall power, Jump/Tumble check, etc.). If the save succeeds, then you can possibly reposition either the target/dropper so that the target moves to an adjacent square, or use the Missing with a Thrown Weapon table (PHB p. 158) to "drift" the dropper into an adjacent square. If the dropper drifts 5' and the target can move to an adjacent square, it may be possible that they don't wind up in the same square, and thus no need to resolve a stacking violation. The target is still standing (he didn't get hit), and presumably the dropper is as well (due to the Boots of Landing).

3) If the dropper scored a hit, or even if the attack missed and/or the target saved, it's pretty likely that the huge dropper and his target are probably occupying the same square. This isn't allowed by the rules, so one of them has to be knocked prone. I like to think of this as an unavoidable Overrun, but to keep things simple just make one roll: dropper's Strength against the target's Strength or Dexterity, whichever is higher. Add size modifiers, +4 bonus for multiple legs, and various other "stability" modifiers. If the dropper wins, target is knocked prone. If the target wins, dropper is knocked prone (yes, even with the Boots of Landing, which don't prevent you from getting knocked prone by someone else).



What happens if the target is flying? Does it fall with him?


The rules don't really cover this. There's nothing that really says the target can't stop flying. If you want, you could have the target make a stall check. This is a DC 20 Ref save. If it fails, then treat it as a stall: fall 150' on the first round, make another stall check or fall 300' on subsequent rounds.

Of course, if the dropper initiates a grapple with the flying creature, then a stall is probably much more likely. First, check to see if the carrying capacity of the flyer has been exceeded. Most likely, the flyer will be heavily encumbered, and depending on how they obtained a fly speed, this may slow them down or prevent them from flying. The flying rules are actually extremely vague about what happens when you try to fly while encumbered... it never actually says you can't fly at all, just that you fly at a reduced speed, as per the encumbrance rules. (Even if you exceed your Max Press, the rules never say that you can't move while carrying even 5x or 10x your max load.) However, the biggest problem now is that the grappled flyer can only move if they spend a standard action to use the "Move" option while in a grapple, and even if they succeed, they can only move at half their normal speed. Since their speed has most likely already been reduced due to heavy encumbrance, this means they probably can't meet the minimum forward speed requirement (usually half their normal fly speed) unless they have enough altitude to fly downwards, doubling their forward movement. The other option in a grapple is to Escape with a grapple check as a standard action, and then presumably continue flying forward with their remaining move action. If the grapple check on the Move or Escape attempt fails, the flyer can't move and goes into a stall. The grappled flyer could try attacking instead, but they'd have to stall (falling 150' the first round, 300' the next) while doing so.



I'm sure he's not the first one to come up with a tactic like this, but I couldn't find much on it. It's a limited a limited strategy, so I'm fine with him using it, but I do want a to make an informed ruling.
Any help is appreciated!

Sinfire Titan probably wasn't the first to come up with this trick, but he may have been the first to post about it. You can find his original 4500 lbs. of Stupid (https://web.archive.org/web/20100602203446/http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19863510/4500_lbs._of_Stupid?pg=1) thread in the wayback machine.

Most DMs frown on this sort of thing, because if you're going by just the Core rules, there's no way to avoid falling object damage without resorting to some house rules. And since it's a trick that can be done at fairly low levels, many would consider it as odiferous fromage, possibly punishable by book-hurling. On the other hand, it may be a way for a mostly-melee build to enjoy a little piece of that big shiny "I Win" button that the Tier 1 casters covet so much. That and of course it's also highly amusing.

Some other things to watch out for: Tree Feather Tokens, Boat Feather Tokens, and the Folding Boat can also be dropped from above with similar results. Determining their weight can be a little tricky, but even conservative estimates should put all of them well above 4000 lbs.

There are also at least three ways to turn a "jump" and/or fall from above into a Charge attack:

Mantis Leap (Sword & Fist). Requires 7 levels of monk. Uses a move action, so can be repeated in the same round to some extent.

Battle Jump (Unapproachable East). The most infamous method, but it's written so poorly that we're still arguing about how it works. Does not specify an action cost, so it's not entirely clear how it's activated. "Hard" interpretations insist that it must still meet the action and movement requirements of a full-round charge, but this makes it impossible to use. "Soft" interpretations allow any action that results in a fall to become a charge. When combined with Pounce, this could allow multiple full attacks. My Thumpback (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16756072&postcount=44) build might be a good example of a "soft" implementation.

Roof-Jumper (Cityscape). Similar to Battle Jump, and while it has more prereqs (the dreaded Dodge/Mobility tax), it doesn't have any regional or campaign world requirements. Unfortunately, the text isn't much clearer than Battle Jump, so it's difficult to tell what sort of action it can be used on. However, it's the only one that was written in an explicitly 3.5 sourcebook, and may be seen as more acceptable to some DMs.

Jormengand's Ridiculous Character Concepts 2: Slam Dunk! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?402795) thread is probably worth a look if you want to see some examples of what can be done with "Droplomancer" builds. My T'Chub-t'chub (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18981080&postcount=23) build uses an obese thri-kreen to crush his opponents with Mantis Leap. Thumpelina (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18984751&postcount=25) (Thumpback's sister) is a flying anthropomorphic baleen whale that uses Roof-Jumper. And Ker'plunk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18981080&postcount=23) just summons an unlimited number of gelatinous cubes onto himself to drop on his opponents.

[Quertus]

That doesn't work if the enemy is aleady adjacent to a wall (or the ground, or whatever substitutes for a wall). If they're already next to the wall, you can't force the opponent to move into it; there's no movement (change of square) possible. Remember, Dungeon Crasher is just a new use of Bull Rush. If you don't (can't) Bull Rush the enemy 5', you don't (can't) deal crushing damage.

At what point did
"I push you into the wall."
"You can't - there's a wall there."
"Oh, right."
become a valid line of thought?

Just had to ask. :P

[Darrin]

At what point did
"I push you into the wall."
"You can't - there's a wall there."
"Oh, right."
become a valid line of thought?

Just had to ask. :P

RAW and common sense are not currently on speaking terms.

Not being able to push someone into a wall because they aren't moving into a new square is something I haven't heard before... looks like he's got the RAW of it, though. The Bull Rush rules don't really cover what happens if there's no open square behind your opponent that he can move into. Previously, I recall Curmudgeon arguing that you can't bull-rush someone into the ground because the falling creature cannot arbitrarily redefine "horizontal" with relation to the ground. Even if you could define "pushing back" your opponent so that it's perpendicular to the ground, by this reasoning you still can't do it because there's no open space there to push your opponent into.

Looks like that's just something the designers didn't anticipate, so you'll just have to use common sense there. As far as Dungeon Crasher goes... the intent seems pretty clear to me, but by RAW, there's no method to determine what happens when you have two characters illegally standing in the same square. So you can either not allow the Bull Rush to happen in the first place, or come up with a house rule to determine who gets knocked prone in that square (maybe a second Str check vs. Str check, or just assume "can't move back = knocked prone").

Not everyone adheres to Curmudgeon's level of absolute literalism with regards to the rules.

[Fizban]

Falling onto someone doesn't do anything except make you "accidentally" end your movement in an illegal square, forcing you to freely move to the closest legal position, which could potentially net you some free movement I guess. Dungeoncrashing people into the ground from above is fine, but he doesn't get anything more than maybe the oft-suggested +2 charge bonus (with accompanying penalties). If he wants to Crush, then he'll need to take the Crush feat from Savage Species, which will give him a base 2d8 crush damage, only work on Small or smaller creatures, and have nothing to do with dungeoncrashing.

I'm generally cool with the idea of letting people teleport into the air (even had it as a centerpiece of a couple builds), but if it became a major thing I'd raise it before the table in full and decide if we should crack down on the "must be supported" clause. From there, I generally assume that flying creatures are allowed to teleport through the air, and Air Walk would also allow you to do so, though again if it became a problem I'd be fine cracking down. The ruling here can swing both ways: players allowed to tele-fall get access to some cool builds, but so do monsters with natural pounce, meanwhile any flier with teleport is forced to land for a moment which could be problematic.

[Brunks]

Hi all, thanks for all the replies


If you don't (can't) Bull Rush the enemy 5', you don't (can't) deal crushing damage.
Wow, I learn something new every time I come here. Interesting.


Creatures never count as objects until they're dead (corpses).
Yea I figured. I didn't have anything to go on, so I just used those rules for the time being.


What if the player weren't a dungeoncrasher, but was just taking advantage of his weight and falling onto his enemies to crush them, as opposed to calling it a downward bull rush? I think that seems to be more of the question the OP is asking, although I'm not entirely sure.

Yes, this is what is happening, the player isn't currently using bull rush mechanics for his fall. I included the fact in case there were mechanics that were similar, as well as to give an indication as to what this character generally does. (smash people into walls)


I just wanted to point out a few things about these parts of your questions.

First, the rules for taking damage from falling 200 feet would cause the PC to take 17d6 lethal and 1d6 nonlethal damage to himself. That would be 20d6, minus 2d6 from the boots, and since he's doing it intentionally, the first 1d6 is converted to nonlethal. They can also negate the damage from the first 10' of falling with a DC15 Jump or Tumble check.

I should clarify, the player character weighs several thousand pounds (thanks expansion!) And with 1d6 damage/200 pounds easily reaches the 20d6 damage cap within a 10 ft fall, as I understood it. He uses Boots of Landing (MIC p77) to negate any falling damage and always land on his feet.



Really when there is no actual RAW rule to do what he is doing you should use crush attacks as a baseline and work from there: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm
Ah that's great! I can adapt these mechanics!


what are boot of agile landing I have never seen them do you mean boots of landing MIC 77
I have no idea where I got Agile from, you assumed correctly, MIC p77


According to Heroes of Battle, heavy objects dropped from above the target are (sorta) covered by the Aerial Bombardment rules (HoB pp. 67-68). Unfortunately, these rules are barely functional, make reference to more rules later on that don't exist, and don't really apply to falling creatures. As far as the save goes, it says Ref save DC 15 to avoid damage. So you're already following the rules so far.

The Aerial Bombardment rules also mention a ranged attack roll, and to hit a particular square is AC 5. It's not really possible to be proficient with hurling your own body at the ground, so a -4 nonproficiency penalty applies. There's also a penalty for maneuverability, but I'm assuming your bellyflopper doesn't have a fly speed, so... I guess we have to go with -6 for "clumsy" because anything worse than clumsy isn't listed as an option. You could increase the penalty to -8 or -10 for not having a fly speed at all, if you like. The problem with the attack roll is even if the attack misses, you drift at most 5', so a huge object/creature is going to hit the target square even on a missed attack roll.

Hmm, those rules don't help that much, but I'm still glad to have them, thank you. I do think an attack roll is appropriate if he wants to hit the creature specifically.


This is a house rule, but I would treat it as sort of like unavoidable Overrun attempt (no action cost):

1) Entering the target's square provokes an AoO from the target. If the target has reach, the dropper may provoke an AoO for moving through a threatened square directly above the target. Resolve the AoO. A successful AoO does not stop the rest of the fall from happening.

2) Target does not get an opportunity to avoid, but this is probably a good spot to make the Ref save. If the Ref save fails, the target takes falling object damage as determined by the weight of the dropper and the distance dropped. (Note: in the DMG, falling object damage has two components, weight and distance, and only distance is capped at 20d6. In the Rules Compendium, they changed this rule so that all damage from falling objects is capped at 20d6.) Dropper takes damage as a normal fall (generally negated by the Boots of Landing, catfall power, Jump/Tumble check, etc.). If the save succeeds, then you can possibly reposition either the target/dropper so that the target moves to an adjacent square, or use the Missing with a Thrown Weapon table (PHB p. 158) to "drift" the dropper into an adjacent square. If the dropper drifts 5' and the target can move to an adjacent square, it may be possible that they don't wind up in the same square, and thus no need to resolve a stacking violation. The target is still standing (he didn't get hit), and presumably the dropper is as well (due to the Boots of Landing).

3) If the dropper scored a hit, or even if the attack missed and/or the target saved, it's pretty likely that the huge dropper and his target are probably occupying the same square. This isn't allowed by the rules, so one of them has to be knocked prone. I like to think of this as an unavoidable Overrun, but to keep things simple just make one roll: dropper's Strength against the target's Strength or Dexterity, whichever is higher. Add size modifiers, +4 bonus for multiple legs, and various other "stability" modifiers. If the dropper wins, target is knocked prone. If the target wins, dropper is knocked prone (yes, even with the Boots of Landing, which don't prevent you from getting knocked prone by someone else).
I like these, they are a great help! I will probably create a variation of this for my campaign.


I'm generally cool with the idea of letting people teleport into the air (even had it as a centerpiece of a couple builds), but if it became a major thing I'd raise it before the table in full and decide if we should crack down on the "must be supported" clause.
Yea, I never realized it was controversial to teleport into the air. Well it's allowed at my table. It's been working fine thus far.

Thanks for all the responses guys, I've read them all even if I didn't address everything. Your help was greatly appreciated! I'm going to formulate a proper ruling based on your advice.

[MisterKaws]

It's not really possible to be proficient with hurling your own body at the ground, so a -4 nonproficiency penalty applies.

Nope, monk with throw anything is proficient with that.

[ericgrau]

Ah that's great! I can adapt these mechanics!
I think someone else also mentioned the crush feat from savage species, which is also based on these mechanics. Though personally I'd be hesitant to require a feat for everything and might just give it away for free.