To Make a Mage Hunter in (3.5)

[Doctor Despair]

Now, obviously the best mage hunter would be just that: a mage who has decided to kill other mages. I'd like to challenge you to put together the best build for a character to hunt mages without too much devotion to casting. Assume the DM has allowed LA buyoff.

Some ideas I've considered thusfar are:


Warblade: Wall of Blades, prevents an orb spell

Drow (LA2) or Spellwarped (LA3) give 11+HD spell resistance. Three bloodline levels gives us ~70% chance of negating magic, before spell penetration.

Item of Mindblank seems necessary here, haha. Perhaps Vecna Blooded to avoid divination?

Some sort of spell channel ability for Dimensional Anchor, the use of a wand, or just casting it seems absolutely necessary if you intend to kill a mage outright.

Mage Killer is good, but only if you can get within melee range in the first place; an amulet of travel devotion could help with that, maybe.

Access to some form of dispel also seems necessary.

Access to some form of truesight seems necessary.

The acquired half-golem template would be strong, but the SR cannot be lowered, so it may be more trouble than it is worth.
Whisper Gnome (LA1), sneak attack, and Silencing Strike could be effective, but is so costly (a feat, level, and class tax?!) that it hardly seems efficient compared to the one-feat cost to circumvent it

[Doxkid]

What level?

[Doctor Despair]

Full 20-level progression preferably :)

[DarkestKnight]

I've toyed with using duskblade/sword dancer to make an dex based mage hunter. Sword dancer gives some crazy speed, and Duskblade gives a nice selection of the swift spells for closing the gap or evading the spell caster, just have to be creative. Admittedly it doesn't feature much in the way of spell resistance or the like, but there are plenty of items that will do that for you.

What power level of mage are we trying to hunt? hunting a couple of level 10s is quite different than hunting a 15.

[Azoth]

Winged (+2LA) Human Ranger1/Monk2/Rogue2/Barbarian2/Occult Slayer5/Witch Slayer2/Warblade2/Swordsage4

Ranger FE: Arcanist
Rogue trade evasion for spell reflection, trade SA for bonus feats
Barbarian Spirit Lion + wolf totem

Feats:
Flaw: Improved Initiative
Flaw: Able Learner
Human: weapon focus (glaive)
1st: Nemesis
Monk1: Power Attack
Monk2: Improved Bull Rush
3rd: Item Familiar
Rogue1: Blind Fight
Rogue2: Combat Reflexes
6th: Mage Slayer
Barb 2: Improved Trip
9th: Pierce Magical Concealment
12th: Shock Trooper
15th: Darkstalker
18th: Pierce Magical protection

[DeAnno]

In general, a really high hide check is good, combined with Mind Blank and Darkstalker. Having played the other side of this my Mailman's 100% highest concern with non-mages was losing the hide war. If you can get that 10x speed charge ability somehow and manage to hide while charging, that will take out a lot of people in the open.

[Triskavanski]

Divine Denial is a good one to use on cleric type mages.

I think Hexblade 3 levels, might be something to get. So you can get Mettle, along with a ring of evasion, you're looking at the ability add your cha to all saves against spells, And if you pass a spell with a Will/Fort or Reflex save you take no additional effect from the spell really.

Then Divine Denial makes it so you can even roll a saving throw against divine spells without one. Arcane though I don't know of a good armor defense against this one yet.

[SirNMN]

Winged (+2LA) Human Ranger1/Monk2/Rogue2/Barbarian2/Occult Slayer5/Witch Slayer2/Warblade2/Swordsage4

Ranger FE: Arcanist
Rogue trade evasion for spell reflection, trade SA for bonus feats
Barbarian Spirit Lion + wolf totem

Feats:
Flaw: Improved Initiative
Flaw: Able Learner
Human: weapon focus (glaive)
1st: Nemesis
Monk1: Power Attack
Monk2: Improved Bull Rush
3rd: Item Familiar
Rogue1: Blind Fight
Rogue2: Combat Reflexes
6th: Mage Slayer
Barb 2: Improved Trip
9th: Pierce Magical Concealment
12th: Shock Trooper
15th: Darkstalker
18th: Pierce Magical protection

I like it exempt you have rogue giving you two feats
my build is Race a venerable dragonwrought Kobold feral + 1 LAv shadow creature + 2
Score Kobold venerable feral
Str -4 0 +4
Dex +2 0 -2
Con -2 0 +2
Int 0 +3 -4
Wis 0 +3 +2
cha 0 +3 0

RotD web: Slight Build + 8 to hid
Feral: Pounce darkvision 120 ft, fast heal 5
Shadow Creature :Shadow Blend (hide in play sight except in daylight), Low-light vision, +2 luck bonus on all saving throws, Evasion, as the rogue class feature, Mirror Image 1 per day CL 5, plane shift Plane Shift (Sp): 1/day, to or from the Plane of Shadow only. CL 15th.
Speed 60

Rogue trade evasion for spell reflection, trade SA for bonus feats
Ranger FE: Arcanist
Paladin of Freedom

2 rouge/ 1 ranger / 3 hexblade /2 paladin / 5 Occult Slayer / 3 Bard / 2 suel archamach
Flaw: Improved Initiative
Flaw: weapon focus (any)
1st: dragonwrought
Rogue: blind fight
3rd:Nemesis
6th: mage slayer
9th: Pierce Magical Concealment
12th : snowflakes wardance
15th: Darkstalker
18th: Pierce Magical protection

Slippers of Battledancing must have for this build

[Doctor Despair]

I've toyed with using duskblade/sword dancer to make an dex based mage hunter. Sword dancer gives some crazy speed, and Duskblade gives a nice selection of the swift spells for closing the gap or evading the spell caster, just have to be creative. Admittedly it doesn't feature much in the way of spell resistance or the like, but there are plenty of items that will do that for you.

What power level of mage are we trying to hunt? hunting a couple of level 10s is quite different than hunting a 15.

Sworddancer does give spring attack, but I feel like that's the last thing we'd want to use against a mage; it stops us from using mage slayer! :(

I was hoping that this build would be able to hunt a mage of equal level at least; being able to track down one of higher level is just a bonus, so at level 15 it should be able to hunt level 15 mages.


Ranger FE: Arcanist
Rogue trade evasion for spell reflection, trade SA for bonus feats
Barbarian Spirit Lion + wolf totem

Feats:
Flaw: Improved Initiative
Flaw: Able Learner
Human: weapon focus (glaive)
1st: Nemesis
Monk1: Power Attack
Monk2: Improved Bull Rush
3rd: Item Familiar
Rogue1: Blind Fight
Rogue2: Combat Reflexes
6th: Mage Slayer
Barb 2: Improved Trip
9th: Pierce Magical Concealment
12th: Shock Trooper
15th: Darkstalker
18th: Pierce Magical protection

Definitely see why you're going for winged. Can you fight normally while flying? Do you need perfect maneuverability for that? We'd need 17 dex (not hard to achieve) to get that quality, which is especially easy with the +4 to dex it gives, meaning it's really 13 dex required. That does bring up the challenge of how we would get decent spell resistance, though, since the smallest LA I found for scaling LA was +2, and up to +3 can be paid off by level 20. There's always the Phoenix Cloak if we really need the flight as well.

Nemesis seems very strong; if we don't want to dip ranger for whatever reason, dipping Mindbender and taking Mindsight might replicate that ability to bypass illusion and also isn't limited to one creature type.

Pierce Magical Concealment seems decent against a cowardly wizard, though I feel that it might not be worth a feat dip; couldn't we just aquire Truesight to accomplish the same thing? PM Protection seems like it would be good against an enemy stacking buffs, certainly. It is also nice because I feel like it synergizes with Truestrike; strike true once, and hit all the subsequent times as well.

I recognize the use of stealth in this character, between darkstalker and whatnot. We get close and can probably even strike true with the Binding weapon enhancement, duplicating a dimensional anchor. With godblooded of vecna (though this method makes me sad due to the flavor -- no facial features is creeeeepy), we can even dodge the divination effects that might alert a mage to our coming. Is there another way to dodge divination effects besides Vecna blooded? How crucial is it to avoid divination in that sense when we have mind blank? I also have to ask: can you *fly* while you are hiding? It seems off flavor, but is there a rule against it if you have HiPS?

I see where you're going with the power attack, bull rush, etc. My question then becomes: what do we do if they have some sort of delay death persisted or the like? Flat damage seems like the first thing a mage would work to circumvent in this way. We need some sort of ability to dispel, and a rod of mordenkainen's disjunction seems both too ironic and too annoying to want to use. Is there another way to dispel without being a caster? I do appreciate the trip focus -- we dimensional anchor them, and now they're prone! -- but I think we need to be sure we get it as a free or swift action if we are going to do it.


If you can get that 10x speed charge ability somehow and manage to hide while charging, that will take out a lot of people in the open.

The Terrasque ability? We'd need to somehow get the Dread Carapace soulmeld, I think, with the shape soulmeld feat.

With three bloodline levels of the stormgiant bloodline taken early, we'd get a cheap freedom of movement for mobility.

The Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis gives us the dark template for free, which is nice for a plus 10. Of course there's Expeditious Retreat as well, for a nice +30. Assuming at least a racial 30 movespeed, that means we now have 70. With a chronocharm of travel devotion (I think that's what it's called) we can get a free move action, as well as any number of other ways to get that. This is a good answer, with the Dread Carapace and perhaps a belt of battle, to getting really close to a wizard really fast. The trouble with this method is that the mage might have a contingency: greater teleport or what have you placed on himself for "if an enemy comes within X feat" whereas the sneaking option and only appearing to dimensional anchor the wizard doesn't give the spell the opportunity to function. Of course, there's always "contingency: shapechange" at higher levels to make things difficult, haha.


Divine Denial is a good one to use on cleric type mages.

I think Hexblade 3 levels, might be something to get. So you can get Mettle, along with a ring of evasion, you're looking at the ability add your cha to all saves against spells, And if you pass a spell with a Will/Fort or Reflex save you take no additional effect from the spell really.

Then Divine Denial makes it so you can even roll a saving throw against divine spells without one. Arcane though I don't know of a good armor defense against this one yet.

Divine Denial and a Ring of Evasion seem really strong, especially if we can get improved evasion! Pump those saves baby. I'm not sure if there is an arcane compliment, either, but until we find that, the 11+HD SR might be our best bet for resisting spells, especially with 3 bloodline levels.

_________________________________________

So far the strategy seems to be:


Be extremely stealthy

Sneak up to the mage using Darkstalker and what have you

If you are confident, charge from ten feet away; if you suspect contingency spells, attack normally from stealth

If they are airborn for whatever reason and you can't wait for them to come down, make use of Phoenix Cloak and a high base movement speed to charge them and pounce -- hope they haven't contingencied a teleport spell. Freedom of Movement may come in handy here.

Truestrike with a Binding strike from the weapon enhancement and shred their magical concealment and protection as well as Dimensional Anchoring them

Complete your full round of attacks. and maybe a second one with the belt of battle -- knowing mages, you should probably one shot them if they haven't contingencied shapeshange, delay death, and have not used astral projection or hide life. In the case of astral projection, at least, we can assume a won encounter if we kill the projection presumably and then continue hunting the original as usual. (Though that raises the question: how are we tracking these mages? We may need to invest in some sort of divination or something)



We need a strategy to dispel or circumvent those effects that prevent the mage from, at the very least, being brought unconscious. If they have additional rounds after being anchored, we have significant defenses against any sort of magic, especially if we take Warblade 2 for Wall of Blades, but if they can just sit there laughing at us until our Anchor runs out, that's game.

We also need a strategy to hunt these mages. Obviously there is UMD for divination spells, but just as we may take precautions against divination, so may they. What would be the most effective method here?

Edit:

Once we've bound the wizard with dimensional anchor, it occurs to me that he could simply run away, especially with timestop.

Assuming we reach the wizard, we are now adjacent to him, he is tripped of concealment and AC buffs, and he is dimensionally anchored for 13 minutes. Now, he may five foot step away and cast offensive spells, but that won't help him much with our presumably high saves and SR. If he moves normally, he takes an AoO, as he will casting a normal spell. This may not necessarily immediately mean death, however, especially since we do not have an answer to delay death and whatnot. A rod of quicken spell would also allow him to even cast timestop and flee.

The wizard casting expeditious retreat and running away would stop us as well at higher levels, since the binding only lasts 13 minutes; the wizard could run away (assuming there is spell to allow the wizard to run indefinitely? I'd imagine there was) until the clock timed out and then teleport. Even with an antimagic field, the wizard could quicken ExpRetreat and then run away; the effects are suppressed, not the casting, since AFM was meant as a more defensive spell that I can tell.

If we take Drow/Whisper Gnome and mix up a hybrid according to the rules (we only need the SR and the silence SLA), we could take Silencing Strike; that, at least, would prevent a quickened timestop from most mages (quickened AND silent?). Still, some could, and it doesn't answer ExpRetreat.

Ironically enough, the tripping may be our best answer to simply running away. It's a two-feat dip for both improved trip and knockdown, but it could be worth it. If we trip on that strike, the wizard could swift action expeditious retreat and then full retreat, but that leaves him subject to a charge. He could stand, expeditious retreat, move, and then run the next turn, but that doesn't help with all the AoOs. On that note, I think we need to get a lot of AoOs to punish just that sort of thing. Extra move actions are our bane here, but if we get those with the Belt of Battle and Chronocharm, we should be set up fairly well.

That just leaves folks who have metamagic reducers on silent spell, for which... I don't have an answer except: who puts metamagic reducers on silent spell? Or I suppose arcane thesis on Timestop, but that is, again, a very odd choice. I think we're mostly in the clear here, but I'm curious if there is anything one could do to prevent a quickened, silent timestop.

SO!

We sneak up to the wizard using darkstalker/hide/invisibility/mind blank/item familiar ranks/whatever.
We do a sneak attack that silences them, dimensionally anchors them, and trips them
We make tons of attacks of opportunity using combat reflexes
If they fight back, we have SR 11+HD, we make saves on all divine spells even if they don't have saves, and can deflect a ranged touch attack after we know if it would normally bypass our AC

EDIT:

I've now just found Witchslayer and it is glorious.

This requires:

Dark Whisper Gnome/Dark Elf

Maximum ranks in hide and move silently
A binding weapon of some kind
An item of mind blank
Tons of charisma items
A visit to the Otyugh Hole for Iron Will because no one likes that feat tax
Scout's Headband
Wand of silence, expeditious retreat, etc
Chronocharm of Travel Devotion

Feats:
Darkstalker
(Fighter Bonus) Combat Reflexes
Mage Slayer
(Wolf Totem) Improved Trip
Knockdown
Divine Denial
Mind Sight
Silencing Strike
Pierce Magical Protection

Classes:
Spellthief 6
Witch Slayer 5
WT Barbarian 2
Warblade 5
Mindbender 1
Fighter 1

So we hit the mage at least two times, disable its casting with a huge Witch Slayer DC, remove delay death and hide life from the wizard, trip him, silence him, dimensionally anchor him, remove any bonuses to AC that he might have, and deny him the right to cast defensively -- not that he can cast at all. If he tries to crawl away, we get an attack of opportunity and move up to him next round, maybe using a belt of battle or Chronocharm, and repeat. If he stands, we knock him down. If he somehowcasts an offensive spell, we can tank it with our SR, saves, and mettle.

Now that just leaves the question: is maximum hide and silence with darkstalker enough to sneak up on a wizard? If not, what else do we need to do to get there, and what spells, other than delay death or hide life, should we siphon off of him?

[Azoth]

The weapon of my original build was a +1 valarous magebane banishing binding illusion theft discipline focus (setting sun) glaive. His Armor was +1 Nimble Mirror Imagr Chain shirt, +1 Proof against Transmutation Dastana, +1 soulfire Chahar-Aina.

I didn't worry about SR, as anything CR appropriate will rip through it like a Frenzied Berserker does a wet tissue.

If you can transfer specific weapon enchants, I would drop Discipline Focus and give it the ability to make someone hit by it lose one of their highest level spells. That ability is on some whip from I think it was in Planar Handbook or Manual of the Planes.

[Pluto!]

I like Vecna-Blooded (iff LA buyoff is on the table) Arcane Hunter Ranger 2/Egoist 4/Ilithid Slayer 10/Anarchic Initiate 4 with that Power Attack combat style from Dragon, Pierce Magic Concealment, Darkstalker, Practiced Manifester and Favored Power Attack, even though it's pretty gishy.

Or in the same spirit, that Wisdom-based Paladin build Paladin 4/Sanctified Mind 1/Warmind 5/Sanctified Mind 5 with Serenity, capped off with Occult Hunter 5, would be pretty resilient and versatile here.

What I like about these approaches are that the goto Psigish classes, Slayer and Sanctified Mind, are built to squish Aberrations, but many of their features are also specifically relevant against spellcasters. Additionally, Psigishes get powerful scaling abilities that work differently than spells on several levels and are in many ways more compatible with martial characters and more "subtle" in their in-game descriptions and effects.

[gorfnab]

Here is a Mage Slayer build I came up with a while ago.

1. Ranger - B: Track, Weapon Focus: Guisarme, Arcane Hunter ACF
2. Barbarian - Spirit Totem: Lion ACF, Whirling Frenzy ACF, {Optional: City Brawler ACF (Drg#349)}
3. Barbarian - Nemisis: Arcanists, Wolf Totem ACF
4. Warblade
5. Warblade
6. Warblade - Mage Slayer
7. Warblade
8. Warblade - B: Improved Initiative
9. Crusader - Blindfight
10. Crusader
11. Occult Slayer
12. Occult Slayer - Combat Reflexes
13. Occult Slayer
14. Occult Slayer
15. Occult Slayer - Pierce Magical Concealment
16. Witch Slayer
17. Witch Slayer
18. Witch Slayer - Stand Still
19. Witch Slayer
20. Witch Slayer

Note: The levels of Occult Slayer and Witch Slayer can be switched around as needed.

Warblade nets you the maneuvers Iron Heart Surge, Moment of Perfect Mind, and Action Before Thought. You also get Uncanny Dodge

Crusader nets you the Thicket of Blade Stance (combos nicely with Stand Still, Combat Reflexes, and a reach weapon; wear spiked gauntlets or armor spikes to threaten nearby squares) and some healing maneuvers. it also nets you Indomitable Soul.

Witch Slayer nets you Mettle and Slippery Mind.

If playing human take EWP: Spiked Chain and WF: Spiked Chain instead of Guisarme

[Blackhawk748]

I dont have a Build but Witchborn Binder should be mentioned mostly because of Mage Shackles and Grim Integument, plus the fact that you're a Meldshaper helps.

[Auranghzeb]

Race Human winged

Ranger (Urban ranger and Arcane favored enemy) 1 Paladin of freedom 5 (feat for spells variant and smite charge) Fighter 1, Pious templar 8, Occult Slayer 5.

Feats:
1-Able learner
Human-True Believer
Flaw-Power attack
Flaw-Fearless (Regional)
-Track
3-Blind fight
Paladin-Weapon focus greatsword
Fighter-Improved bull rush
6-Mage slayer
9-Pierce magic concealment
Pious: Weapon specialization
Pious bonus-Combat reflexes or Improved sunder
Pious Bonus-Combat brute
12-Favored Smite
15-Weapon mastery slash
18-Pierce magi protection

You got immunity to charm, divine grace, mettle and 4/smite evil at 13 damage(double aganst favored enemies arcanists) + 2 pious templar smites

[Eldariel]

First of all:
1) Feathered Wings Graft is a nonmagical source of flight. Don't take terrible templates for what you can get with 10k.
2) The primary blind spots in a normal Magus's options are ways to defeat Mindblanked Darkstalkers with great modifiers (assuming Mind Blank protects against Mindsight anyways; if that ruling is different, this becomes even more hopeless).
3) Occult Slayer is the easiest source of a decent Mind Blank; Legacy Weapons are the second best. The other options are just way too expensive to bother with.
4) Naturally high saves/touch AC might surprise a careless opponent and enable you to get an extra shot in.
5) You need some way to capture their soul after the kill (Thinaun weapon is good) lest they resurrect immediately.
6) You need sufficient physicals to fight basically anything head-on since Wizards have a lot of ways to produce underlings (Animate Dead, Planar Binding, Gate, Craft Construct, Dominate Person, Dominate Monster, Control Undead, Simulacrum, Summons, etc.)
7) You need means to bypass their usual protections; invisibility (some way to detect someone under Superior Invisibility), mirror images, any given shape from Polymorph Any Object/Shapechange/Magic Jar, very AC, Foresight + Contingencies & Celerity, etc.


You can use bodychanging to get a lot of really impressive stuff. Also bonus feats can be acquired through Dark Chaos Shuffle, among other things. I'm skipping out on that stuff for now. Sadly Vecna-Blooded requires arcane caster level of 3 so that's hard to apply as well. Without that, perhaps:
Gheden [DR313] Fire Elf Ranger 2/Fighter (Hit'n'Run Targetteer) 1/Barbarian 1 (Whirling Frenzy+Pounce)/Warblade 6/Eternal Blade 10

LA bought off.

Dex > Int > Str > Rest.

Feats:
1. Nemesis: Arcanists [BoED]
Flaw. Troll-Blooded [DR319]
Flaw. Keen Intellect [DR318]
Gheden. Endurance
Gheden. Diehard
Gheden. Toughness
Elf. Martial Weapon Profs
Ranger. Rapid Shot
Targetteer. EWP: Greatbow, Arrow Storm [DR310]
3. Knowledge Devotion [CChamp]
6. Weapon Focus
W. Blind-Fight
9. Darkstalker [LoM]
Otyugh Hole [CScoundrel]. Iron Will
12. Woodland Archer [RotW]
15. Mage Slayer [CArc]
18. Pierce Magical Concealment [CArc]

Undergoes Ritual of the Elemental Earth [Savage Species] and buys a casting of Mantle of the Fiery Spirit [Sandstorm]. Items include Feathered Wings [Fiend Folio], Legacy Weapon (Gauntlet or such) granting Mind Blank, Moment of Prescience, Contingency + Dimension Door, Cunning (ability to act while flat-footed) [Weapons of Legacy], Phasing Arrows [DR330], Brilliant Energy Arrows (various tips), Martial Script of One with Shadows [ToB], some items to grant Stance of Alacrity [ToB] and some such, reroll items, etc.


Cunning (Weapon of Legacy) + Island in Time (Eternal Blade) + Contingency = decent options to act out of turn order.
Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics, Moment of Prescience, Wall of Blades & co. provide decent utility and the save maneuvers exist as a backup. Thanks to the Dex & Int focus, multiclassing, and some feats, the saves are at least decent. Diamond Defense allows saving vs. DC 50-somethings.
Immunities combined with Troll-Blooded + Gheden means this character is mostly immune to damage. A Wizard can still kill him with damage (Searing Spell) but that's already way more specific.
Darkstalker + Dark-template (from Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis [ToM]) is a decent source of stealth.
Nemesis for a 60' mage radar in addition to the perception and stealth skills. Legacy Weapon can also contain some detection abilities. Can also get Scent/Blindsense from stances and make the DC40 Spot-check to pinpoint an invisible, living active creature and has the Clarity of Vision skilltrick for easy noticing of everything.
Decent full attack; bow would have to be +1 Precise Splitting Force. Able to one-round a Hecatoncheires. Force and appropriate arrows allow bypassing most sorts of protection.
Can also melee with Whirling Frenzy + Leading the Charge + Bounding Assault Pounce full attack. Elvencraft Bow with +1 Valorous or some Quick-Drawing Valorous Iron Thinaun weapon (preferable).
Pierce Magical Concealment allows ignoring most forms of annoying defenses mages can have.
Woodland Archer + tons of attacks = able to hit very difficult-to-hit targets.
Knowledge Devotion + Eternal Knowledge = decent bonuses per hit, with a lot of hits.
Moment of Prescience (Legacy Weapon) + high Dex + Hit'n'Run + items = decent Initiative.

[Jack_McSnatch]

You could solve the invisibility problem by picking up tremorsense or blindsense. There's a feat in RoS that gives you tremorsense out to twenty feet

[Zaq]

I dont have a Build but Witchborn Binder should be mentioned mostly because of Mage Shackles and Grim Integument, plus the fact that you're a Meldshaper helps.

Witchborn Binder is unusably terrible. You get partial meldshaper advancement, but it doesn't progress melds or binds, which are the important parts. Actual meldshaper level is used primarily for the PrC's own abilities, but since it's only a partial advancement, that isn't good. The PrC's abilities are all really weak—they require a lot of rolls, like attacks, saves, or CL checks, to go your way, they have inefficient action costs, and they generally have range requirements that are problematic when you're fighting mages. No, Witchborn Binder is a terrible trap. Even the Iron Chef round of it didn't produce anything that could actually hunt mages.