low and mid level DPR strategies?

[Dimers]

It's been a loooooong time since I played any character focused on damage. I'd like to change that, and I may be taking part in a new 5e campaign soonish.

Since I don't know what my fellow PCs or the campaign might be like, let's assume a typical-sized party fighting level-appropriate challenges at a typical rate per day, and every single other player spends most of their turns saying "I attack it," followed shortly by "I miss. Your turn." No strategy, no optimization.

What low-level (3rd through 6th, say) abilities and combos exist for dealing high damage on average when all you can count on is yourself? What other benefits does each of these builds have? -- like skills, defenses, utility abilities, party buffing.

How well do those builds grow into the mid levels (7th through 12th)?

What other builds become viable if you can count on one other player doing something you want as often as reasonably possible? -- casting Haste or knocking prone or whatever.

[djreynolds]

I'm currently playing a wizard in one party, and at times I cannot damage stuff like demons, so I haste the fighters, they rock.
Bless is great for hits as is inspiration for damage.

For me, anything that can allow your Great Weapon Masters and Sharpshooters an easier time landing those hits or gives them more chances.

I know everyone loves the vengeance paladin, but I like the devotion paladin and sacred weapon. Right now, our ranger really eats up the enemy with her bow and archery style, and bless just helps her land sharpshooter more often.

But gaining advantage is key for me. My champion at 4th level, would give up his attack to shove someone prone and others would feast, and later on when I snagged shield master at 6th it was even easier as shove was a bonus action. Totem wolf barbarian is nice to have around for advantage. Advantage coupled with that -5/+10, means a lot of those land, so if you can grab those feats now and hold of on the stat increase I would do that. Hunter's mark and hex are sweet as is guiding bolt for the cleric.

Sentinel and polearm master are good ways to grab extra damage from reactions.

I say take feats early and then pump up stats

[Zman]

Varient Human with Polearm Master that pick up Great Weapon Master at 4th. Could go Barbarian or Fighter or Paladin. Any of those classes can reasonably tank while dishing DPR. Fighter brings Action Surge to the table.

A Barbarian/Fighter Multiclass can be great, Barb 2 gets you Relentless Attack and Rage, then go Champion from there on out. Advantage and an expanded Crit range is awesome. Only time it is down is when you don't have your second attack compared to a Foghter, so levels 5 and 6 and levels 11 and 12, oh and 20. I'm even doing this with a Half Orc that at Champion 4 picks up Dual Wielder to dual Wield Longswords. He's a Crit fisher, but again levels 5 and 6 hurt.

[MrStabby]

Varient Human with Polearm Master that pick up Great Weapon Master at 4th. Could go Barbarian or Fighter or Paladin. Any of those classes can reasonably tank while dishing DPR. Fighter brings Action Surge to the table.

A Barbarian/Fighter Multiclass can be great, Barb 2 gets you Relentless Attack and Rage, then go Champion from there on out. Advantage and an expanded Crit range is awesome. Only time it is down is when you don't have your second attack compared to a Foghter, so levels 5 and 6 and levels 11 and 12, oh and 20. I'm even doing this with a Half Orc that at Champion 4 picks up Dual Wielder to dual Wield Longswords. He's a Crit fisher, but again levels 5 and 6 hurt.

Well take champion 5 to start then add barbarian? Although if it caps out at 6th level you won't get much use.#

I would just go straight barbarian, at least till level 5 which will cover most of your campaign anyway. Use the biggest weapon you can find. At level 6 you can take fighter for the style and if the campaign goes further you add action surge and an archetype on top.

[pibby]

If you can rely on others being in melee with you then being an Arcane Trickster with Sentinel can get you nice and steady dps with the right conditions, letting you sneak attack twice per round. During low levels you'll probably want to Dodge at times to keep yourself from dying but once you get Blur your dps will skyrocket when the opponent chooses to hit another ally instead. Warcaster is nice to pick up after maxing Dex to increase your damage out out of turn. As implied, you will also make a great dodge tank.

[Malknafein]

If you can rely on others being in melee with you then being an Arcane Trickster with Sentinel can get you nice and steady dps with the right conditions, letting you sneak attack twice per round.

You can`t add sneak attack damage more than once at turn. Sentinel looks like waste of feat for rogue. You have low AC, low HP, no resistance. Enemy will more likely hit you and not your buddies.

Best way for rogue to increase chance to land more attacks and make sneak attack damage is to use Crossbow Expert feat or off-hand weapon.


During low levels you'll probably want to Dodge at times to keep yourself from dying but once you get Blur your dps will skyrocket when the opponent chooses to hit another ally instead. Warcaster is nice to pick up after maxing Dex to increase your damage out out of turn. As implied, you will also make a great dodge tank.

As Arcane Trickster, I prefer to use one of SCAG melee cantrips, disengage and move away from your enemy. You are too squishy and have not so many spell slot to spam Shield, Blur or Magic Mirror all the day long.

[Flashy]

You can`t add sneak attack damage more than once at turn. Sentinel looks like waste of feat for rogue.

Right, and the reactions take place on someone else's turn, not yours. Turns are what individual characters use to act in, rounds are the overall structure in which all participants take their turns. You can't trigger sneak attack more than once per turn, but you can trigger it multiple times per round.

[NNescio]

You can`t add sneak attack damage more than once at turn. Sentinel looks like waste of feat for rogue. You have low AC, low HP, no resistance. Enemy will more likely hit you and not your buddies.

You can SA more than once per round: once on your turn, and once more on somebody else's turn as an opportunity attack (or some other non-OA reaction, such as that granted by Sentinel).

'though yes, it's generally a risky choice* on a Rogue because you're a prime target compared to your flank buddy Fighter tank. Especially if you have a habit of using reactions to maximize DPR (since it leaves you without reactions for mitigating damage).

Arcane Tricksters can get away with it though, since they can rely on defensive Illusion spells to make them harder to hit.

(*Yes, under optimal conditions, you can double your DPR with Sentinel, but that requires an enemy hitting your flank buddy every round instead of you. True, NPCs and monsters aren't supposed to know you have the Sentinel feat and metagame against it, but intelligent enemies will tend to go for the squishy DPR glass cannon instead of the tank anyway, if you're both within reach [and even unintelligent monsters will generally find creatures encased in less armor to be more appetizing].

Sentinel just gives them more reason to focus on you after they see it in action [yes, they don't know you have the feat per se, but they just saw you swing at them the moment they drop their guard against you when they took a shot at your flank buddy].

It can still be worthwhile though if your flank buddy isn't a conventional BSF tank, like say, an Abjurer 'battlemage' build instead, or another squishy such as a Bladelock.

And of course, ATs have defensive spells, so they care less if they're focus-fired on.)

[pibby]

You can`t add sneak attack damage more than once at turn. Sentinel looks like waste of feat for rogue. You have low AC, low HP, no resistance. Enemy will more likely hit you and not your buddies.

Best way for rogue to increase chance to land more attacks and make sneak attack damage is to use Crossbow Expert feat or off-hand weapon.

You are right in that sneak attack can only be done once per turn but you have to realize that there are multiple turns in a round. Your AC is usually not that much lower than any other melee combatant and if you're really that uncomfortable being in melee then you can Dodge at low levels as mentioned to increase your AC by ~5 for that turn. This creates a predicament for the enemy, attack the thing they are most likely not to hit or hit something else and take damage. Until you get Blur you are a dodge tank but even then its nice to spread the damage the party takes as opposed to letting the one party tank take it all. There's also nothing wrong with using a short bow either when you feel like it.

I helped down the BBEG at the beginning of OotA at level 1 with this build and tactics so don't tell me rogues are squishy.

Crossbow Expert is also a good feat as you mentioned and adding Sharpshooter on top of that can be good too.


As Arcane Trickster, I prefer to use one of SCAG melee cantrips, disengage and move away from your enemy. You are too squishy and have not so many spell slot to spam Shield, Blur or Magic Mirror all the day long.

Casting a melee cantrip doesn't let you use your offhand attack since it technically isn't an Attack action, so you end up decreasing your chances to deal damage that turn. It's true that the Arcane Trickster doesn't get a lot of spell slots but one use of Blur is usually good for the entire combat. I've never met a DM that actually abides by the recommended encounters per day, in real play it ends up being much less than that. Even in a dungeon run with multiple encounters you'll still have 7-8 rounds left on Blur or Haste after a clean fight, 5-6 if it went badly, and allow you to bust in the next room with your spell still active. As mentioned Warcaster can help keep that up if you're really unlucky with dice and also increases damage for when the enemy decides to run away.

[Moctzal]

War Domain Dex Cleric with Sharpshooter feat (Guiding Bolt + War Priest Bonus Action Sharpshooter attack -5/+10, and Guided Strike to make sure it hits when needed most is a nice combo to have in your back pocket). You can also just set up sneak attacks or Great Weapon Master/Sharpshooter attacks for allies with Guiding Bolt. Plus you're a cleric. Parties like clerics for obvious reasons.

Battlemaster Fighter with Commander's Strike can add some value if you have a Rogue for Sneak Attacks, or Paladin for Smites in the party. Maneuvering Attack can help re-position someone who isn't quite in reach of attacks, or get a party member out of bad situations (it doesn't provoke Opportunity Attacks). You can also take Charisma as your third stat, and either run Rally as your third maneuver, or take the Inspiring Leader feat. Fighters are also just all-around solid with Second Wind and Action Surge on short rests.

[djreynolds]

Varient Human with Polearm Master that pick up Great Weapon Master at 4th. Could go Barbarian or Fighter or Paladin. Any of those classes can reasonably tank while dishing DPR. Fighter brings Action Surge to the table.

A Barbarian/Fighter Multiclass can be great, Barb 2 gets you Relentless Attack and Rage, then go Champion from there on out. Advantage and an expanded Crit range is awesome. Only time it is down is when you don't have your second attack compared to a Foghter, so levels 5 and 6 and levels 11 and 12, oh and 20. I'm even doing this with a Half Orc that at Champion 4 picks up Dual Wielder to dual Wield Longswords. He's a Crit fisher, but again levels 5 and 6 hurt.

He asked for advice, this is a masterpiece. I like the idea of duel longswords, I'm gonna steal this build it has panache

[Lonely Tylenol]

Undying Light Tomelock 3 gets 7 cantrips (two of which must be Sacred Flame and Light). These can provide you with three attack options (well, four, with one improving another):

- Sacred Flame: Versus Dexterity save, deals radiant damage. This is improved by the Warlock of the Undying Light's first-level feature, which grants Charisma to damage to fire and radiant damage spells. This will be outclassed by later spell attack options, but you get it for free and it comes online with your spellcasting stat at level 1, and gives you an alternate attack method for when Armor Class is too difficult to hit (though the intersect between high Dexterity save and high Armor Class can be large at times).
- Eldritch Blast: Versus Armor Class, deals force damage. This is improved by the Agonizing Blast invocation, which grants Charisma to damage; Eldritch Spear, which improves range to 300 feet; and Repelling Blast, which gives your Eldritch Blast a 10-foot shove as a rider effect. Comes online fully at level 2, when you first get invocations. This will probably be your main attack for a number of reasons: first, its weapon damage dice is a d10, the highest of attack cantrips; second, it provides iterative attacks instead of simply improving the damage dice, which lets you spread your damage dice out and have "partial successes" rather than binary pass/fail damage, and because the rider is awesome crowd control (which, alongside your caster stat, can be applied multiple times).
- Shillelagh: Versus Armor Class, deals bludgeoning damage as a magic weapon. Lets you add your Charisma to-hit and damage instead of your Strength or Dexterity. Has a duration of 1 minute, but is not a Concentration spell. Comes online at level 3, when you can use the Pact of the Tome to pick up non-Warlock cantrips. It is your weakest attack option by default, scaling not with character level but by with number of attacks, but it is also improved by anything which improves melee weapon attacks, such as the Paladin's Divine Smite, the Rogue's Sneak Attack, or...
- Greenflame Blade: Versus Armor Class, deals fire damage to a secondary target. Out of the box, it only adds your spellcasting modifier to a secondary target, but even with just that, it comes online (situationally) as soon as you have a credible melee attack option (Shillelagh), because Warlock of the Undying Light allows you to add your Charisma modifier a second time. Once you hit character level 5, the damage ramps up by 1 damage dice for both primary and secondary targets, allowing you to apply your Charisma modifier twice to both targets (once each for Shillelagh and Greenflame Blade on the primary target, and twice for Greenflame Blade on the secondary target).

All your attack options are improved by Hex, which grants an extra 1d6 damage for each attack on a target, though the improvement is not equal for all (Sacred Flame and Greenflame Blade only ever get 1d6; Shillelagh gets a variable number of d6 based on attacks per round; Eldritch Blast gets 1d6-4d6 based on level and number of successful hits).

The great thing about all these abilities is that none of them require a great deal of class investment to come online, and once they do, they scale by character level (NOT class level) more than anything else. Further, since everything is Charisma-based, you start off pretty SAD, and only become more MAD through your own class choices. As long as you choose options which benefit your Charisma in some way (among which are the Tiefling, Half-Elf, and variant Human, which are all considered amazing races in general, but can also include Dragonborn, Drow, or Lightfoot Halfling), or is not hampered by the need for other stats (Monk is Wisdom MAD, for example), you can advance in basically whichever way you choose. You can even choose to do so based on which attack option you want to advance the most. For example:

Sacred Flame is not an attack option, and is not improved by anything which improves attack options, but it requires the least investment to come online (one level in Undying Light Warlock) and is the only option which unambiguously works with the War Caster feat. You could take War Caster with your first-level variant Human feat and immediately switch to another class, such as Bard or Sorcerer, to enjoy the benefits of a switch-hitter damage cantrip while also being a full caster delayed only by one level, with all the benefits that entails. (Bard is also a strong utility caster with an ungodly amount of skill proficiencies attached to it, so you have a lot to do out of combat as well.)

Eldritch Blast is pretty self-sufficient, scaling competitively as a damage cantrip through to the very end with only Hex and invocations to improve it. However, it can scale significantly well with Sneak Attack via a Rogue multiclass, and the MAD restrictions on doing so aren't prohibitive (13 Dexterity, and you want a good Dexterity anyway). One could multiclass into Rogue for as much as they want, gaining all these front-loaded attack options in exchange for delaying Sneak Attack by 1d6 and losing out on Elusive and Stroke of Luck. Assassin in particular would make a strong choice, giving you free advantage and critical hits in the crucial early rounds of a fight. You can choose to either start Rogue for the extra skill and weapon proficiencies or start Warlock to bring your damage cantrips online sooner, but either way, the extra skill proficiencies and Expertise make you a useful skill monkey while staying a strong damage option. A Half-Elf Rogue 1/Warlock 3/Rogue +X, for example, has 8 skill proficiencies plus thieves' tools, and Expertise in two from level 1. The Spell Sniper feat lets you nuke people from orbit with your Eldritch Blast.

Shillelagh/Greenflame Blade scales best with attack options, and basically anything that grants extra attacks. Paradoxically, Shillelagh scales best with extra attacks, while Greenflame Blade scales best with effects which boost single attacks. For the best of both worlds, I prefer Paladin, which grants an extra attack at level 5, has a scaling Divine Smite (scaling by spell level), an extra 1d8 of radiant damage at level 11, and, if you are an Oathbreaker, Charisma damage on hit (again!). It also grants great defenses: starting as Paladin grants you heavy armor and shield proficiency, a fighting style (of which Defense or Duelist might be best to take), and the Aura of Protection at level 6. The Polearm Master feat would be the best feat to take here, IF you have reliable access to Haste, as the extra Attack action you could make with Haste grants you your bonus action attack with your Shillelagh (and all its riders).

Not all these things are exclusive: if you had the ability scores and were willing, you could commit, over time, to Warlock 3/Paladin 11/Rogue 6 for a melee-focused build with versatile attack options, strong defense, and Expertise on four skills, or Warlock 3/Rogue 11/Paladin 6 for a more skill-oriented build with strong burst damage and Reliable Talent. OR, you could go Warlock 3/Paladin X/Sorcerer Y and use the Dragon Sorcerer to further empower Greenflame Blade while also providing a lot of spell slots for Divine Smite (and spellcasting purposes). Or you could go further up Warlock, or...

EDIT: In all this, I forgot to mention Fire Bolt, which is inferior to Eldritch Blast except in that it uniquely fits in the overlap between Undying Light and a Dragon Sorcerer's elemental affinity, allowing you to add Charisma to it twice for free, and it has a longer range out of the box. If you go into Sorcerer and/or grab Elemental Adept to improve Greenflame Blade, it will also improve this. Warlock cannot provide it, but Tome does, as does Sorcerer.

EDIT II: I also forgot to mention that Fire Bolt is probably the best option for War Caster as well, at least among spells it unambiguously supports. Really, the spell probably deserved its own entry and I didn't grant it, but it's too late for that now.

[RaGTiME]

Eldritch Blast is pretty self-sufficient, scaling competitively as a damage cantrip through to the very end with only Hex and invocations to improve it. However, it can scale significantly well with Sneak Attack via a Rogue multiclass, and the MAD restrictions on doing so aren't prohibitive (13 Dexterity, and you want a good Dexterity anyway). One could multiclass into Rogue for as much as they want, gaining all these front-loaded attack options in exchange for delaying Sneak Attack by 1d6 and losing out on Elusive and Stroke of Luck. Assassin in particular would make a strong choice, giving you free advantage and critical hits in the crucial early rounds of a fight. You can choose to either start Rogue for the extra skill and weapon proficiencies or start Warlock to bring your damage cantrips online sooner, but either way, the extra skill proficiencies and Expertise make you a useful skill monkey while staying a strong damage option. A Half-Elf Rogue 1/Warlock 3/Rogue +X, for example, has 8 skill proficiencies plus thieves' tools, and Expertise in two from level 1. The Spell Sniper feat lets you nuke people from orbit with your Eldritch Blast.

Sneak attack specifies that it can only be used with a finessable or ranged weapon. Eldritch blast is not a weapon, so it does not gain sneak attack dice.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Straight Human Variant Outlander Rogue (Pick your favorite subclass, I like Swashbuckler)

Human Variant (Moderately Armored)
Starting Ability Scores
Str: 16 (14) (+1 Human) (+1 Moderately Armored Feat)
Dex: 14 (13) (+1 Human)
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 12
Cha: 12

Note: Cha and Int can be changed pretty easily

Skills: Athletics (Expertise), Survival, Animal Handling, Insight, Perception, Persuasion, and Sleight of Hand (Expertise)

At First Level try and get some medium armor... Sleight of Hand can help depending on your character's alignment.
AC: 18
HP: 10
Initiative: +2

So at first (levels 1 -3) what you want to do is play like a typical rogue with 2 daggers or you can mix it up with a rapier and shield if you don't like being so squishy.

At level 4, which is where the fun begins, you take Shield Master.

Shield Master + Expertise Athletics = Sneak Attack almost every fricken round with advantage (increase chance to crit). If the enemy can be knocked prone or snuck attacked then it will be. And with Swashbuckler, if you are the only one next to the creature and it can't be knocked prone, well you still get sneak attack (just not with advantage as easily).

The next feat you want is Martial Adept (trip and riposte). Trip in case you don't have your shield equipped and riposte because sneak attack on others turns is a thing.

Whats great with this is that you don't even need to boost your ability scores for this to work out well.

At level 4 your damage will be (with advantage on the roll) 1d8 + 3 + 2d6 (crit = 2d8 + 3 + 4d6)
At level 8 your damage will be (with advantage on the roll) 1d8 + 3 + 4d6 (crit = 2d8 + 3 + 8d6)

Plus you get to help control the battle field by slowing an enemy and keeping it away from others. Plus your allies get advantage on melee attacks.

Yay feats!

After level 8 just keep gaining ASI in Strength and whatever else you like, I prefer Con for this build.

[Dimers]

For me, anything that can allow your Great Weapon Masters and Sharpshooters an easier time landing those hits or gives them more chances.

So both feats are generally considered good choices for damage-dealing at low levels? The hit penalty is pretty harsh, but it's worthwhile if I can get more accurate?


But gaining advantage is key for me. My champion at 4th level, would give up his attack to shove someone prone and others would feast, and later on when I snagged shield master at 6th it was even easier as shove was a bonus action.

Shoving (or otherwise knocking prone) before an attack is good for accuracy, okay. Shoving requires Strength to work well (barbarians should be great at it while raging), but it doesn't sound like Shield Master combines well with Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter due to needing three hands. Open Hand monk can't knock prone with a flurry before a main attack, and Battle Master fighter can't trip before a main attack. So it sounds like none of those is an all-in-one solution for a warrior who can't rely on allies. Grump. :smallannoyed:


Hunter's mark and hex are sweet as is guiding bolt for the cleric.


War Domain Dex Cleric with Sharpshooter feat (Guiding Bolt + War Priest Bonus Action Sharpshooter attack -5/+10, and Guided Strike to make sure it hits when needed most is a nice combo to have in your back pocket).

*reads PHB on guiding bolt* Wow, that's pretty strong damage for a level 1 spell, and imposing advantage is definitely nice too.


Sentinel and polearm master are good ways to grab extra damage from reactions.


Warcaster is nice to pick up after maxing Dex to increase your damage out of turn.

My takeaway: any way to attack as a reaction is good, including opportunity attacks. War Caster seems helpful for making your best stat work with existing opportunities. Presumably any way to attack as a bonus action is good too, though I'm guessing monks and rogues will be less inclined to do that because of their other bonus-action options. Sentinel and Polearm Master should combine well with Great Weapon Master, though that's a higher-level option for anyone but a human.


Varient Human with Polearm Master that pick up Great Weapon Master at 4th. Could go Barbarian or Fighter or Paladin. Any of those classes can reasonably tank while dishing DPR. Fighter brings Action Surge to the table.

Myth confirmed! :smallsmile:


Yes, under optimal conditions, you can double your DPR with Sentinel, but that requires an enemy hitting your flank buddy every round instead of you.

So to address part 3 of my question, what can you improve if one ally will reliably play along -- if both of you take Sentinel, then someone is getting a free attack! Reading comprehension fail. If the other person has Sentinel too, it doesn't work. Disappointing but entirely reasonable.


Undying Light Tomelock 3 gets 7 cantrips (two of which must be Sacred Flame and Light). These can provide you with three attack options (well, four, with one improving another) ...

Thanks for the exhaustive specifics! What you're calling Undying Light is the SCAG warlock patron?


Straight Human Variant Outlander Rogue

Likewise, thanks for the specifics! And there we have the one-man Shield Master damage producer.

[solidork]

Casting a melee cantrip doesn't let you use your offhand attack since it technically isn't an Attack action, so you end up decreasing your chances to deal damage that turn.

How does you group handle needing a hand free to cast spells? It's sort of a confluence of two of the more confusing aspects of the game. For instance, if I make an offhand attack during my turn can I cast Shield later in that round even though I have something in my hand? Can you drop the dagger as part of your reaction? It's not super clear. Obviously, getting Warcaster obviates this problem and Blur only takes verbal components.

I recently found a dagger that I can use as a spellcasting focus so I am slightly regretting taking GFB, but I figure that I can still get use out of it on turns where I use my bonus action for something other than an offhand attack.

[Finieous]

At level 4, which is where the fun begins, you take Shield Master.


With swashbuckler, I don't get the point of Shield Master. Fighting with two weapons is kinda like advantage, except both d20 rolls can do damage. You'll get sneak attack when an ally is engaging your target, and you'll get sneak attack when it's just you and your target. The only thing you'll want to watch out for is one-on-two (or more), but you have the mobility to avoid that.

I loved rogue Shield Master builds before swashbuckler, but two-weapon fighting seems clearly superior now.

[MaxWilson]

Shoving (or otherwise knocking prone) before an attack is good for accuracy, okay. Shoving requires Strength to work well (barbarians should be great at it while raging), but it doesn't sound like Shield Master combines well with Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter due to needing three hands.

You don't need Shield Master to shove. Polearm Master is equivalently good--shove with your normal attack, and then use the bonus haft attack to hit the now-prone enemy. (Some DMs might let you shove with the bonus attack instead.) Either way you're getting a shove and an attack against a prone target.

(Beware: a polearm at 10' gets disadvantage against a prone target instead of advantage. You have to close to 5' to get advantage, at least by RAW. I think I'd rule that you get advantage even at 10' range though; that seems reasonable given the physical movements involved in avoiding a halberd swing.)

[Dimers]

You don't need Shield Master to shove. Polearm Master is equivalently good--shove with your normal attack, and then use the bonus haft attack to hit the now-prone enemy. (Some DMs might let you shove with the bonus attack instead.) Either way you're getting a shove and an attack against a prone target.

It's good for me to remember that the rogue only cares much about one hit per turn (under the right conditions). So far in my 'armchair' building I've been focusing on number of attacks instead -- probably due to my background in 4e, which has basically no single-strike DPR strategies other than chargecheese. So I've been looking at stuff like warlock+monk for hexed flurry of blows, or barbarian+monk for Reckless Attack advantage on flurry of blows.

It's going to take some getting used to the idea that one-hit strategies can really pay off, that it can be worthwhile to "waste" an attack on knocking prone if all you want is damage. Scoring once with Sharpshooter or Great Weapon Master is about like two hits without, if there aren't many static bonuses involved.

[MaxWilson]

It's going to take some getting used to the idea that one-hit strategies can really pay off, that it can be worthwhile to "waste" an attack on knocking prone if all you want is damage. Scoring once with Sharpshooter or Great Weapon Master is about like two hits without, if there aren't many static bonuses involved.

Obviously it is better if you can get two hits in due to Extra Attack or something, but yes, one hit at advantage can be worth it.

Remember that shoving an enemy prone also allows you to retreat, taking one opportunity attack at disadvantage, but then leaving them unable to attack you on their subsequent turn. (If you're 30' away now and they just spent 15' of movement standing up, they can't reach you to attack.) In this case you're making one attack at advantage in exchange for taking one attack at disadvantage, which is probably about a 4:1 ratio in your favor. If your shove works, at any rate.

[Zman]

One attack with advantage is never better than two attacks. Ever. Now, if you have three attacks, using your first attack to grant advantage for the other two can be better. With allies, knocking someone prone is a good action, often devastatingly so.

Shield master is extremely solid for sword and board. Knock them prone, and hammer them.

[MaxWilson]

One attack with advantage is never better than two attacks. Ever.

In the general case, this is simply false. For a rogue, an attack with advantage might be 5d6+d8+5 (27), whereas two attacks are merely 2x d8+5 (19).

But even if we're assuming you're talking about a fighter specifically--true but irrelevant. In this case you're trading one attack for:

1.) Advantage on your other (bonus) attack,
2.) Reducing the other guy's number of attacks to only one, and
3.) Giving him disadvantage on that one attack.

That's what makes it worth it.

[Zman]

In the general case, this is simply false. For a rogue, an attack with advantage might be 5d6+d8+5 (27), whereas two attacks are merely 2x d8+5 (19).

But even if we're assuming you're talking about a fighter specifically--true but irrelevant. In this case you're trading one attack for:

1.) Advantage on your other (bonus) attack,
2.) Reducing the other guy's number of attacks to only one, and
3.) Giving him disadvantage on that one attack.

That's what makes it worth it.

Wrong.

You didn't add in the sneak attack into the two attacks, which isn't a realistic scenario as Rogues don't get a second attack without multiclassing, TWF not withstanding. Can't compare apples to oranges.

If you have two attacks, you are always better off making make seperate attacks than a single attack with advantage. The conversation was talking abut using your first attack to knock a target prone and then gaining advantage.

Apples to apples, not apples to oranges.