You are a Mage: What do you Do?

[Doctor Despair]

You are a level 20 caster who, for some reason, has not decided to overthrow all the gods by this point in his career for divine ranks. This character intends to kill casters for unspecified reasons. I'd like you to consider three things:


You are unaware that this character is coming for you, but he is; does he manage to sneak up on you? What can you do to survive?


You are forewarned that this character is coming for you; does he manage to sneak up on you? What can you do to survive?


You are old friends with this character and he is able to retrain feats and class levels, may exchange his gear within WBL and, by some supernatural means, can even change his race, age, or any facet of himself. What a guy. What advice do you give him to make him more deadly to mages the world over?




Race and Template:
Dark Whisper Gnome/Dark Elf, LA+3 paid off by 15

Assets:
Maximum ranks in hide and move silently
A binding weapon of some kind
An item of mind blank
Tons of charisma items
A visit to the Otyugh Hole for Iron Will because no one likes that feat tax
Scout's Headband
Wand of silence, expeditious retreat, etc
Chronocharm of Travel Devotion
Ring of Evasion
Cloak of Resistances

Feats:
Darkstalker
(Fighter Bonus) Combat Reflexes
Mage Slayer
(Wolf Totem) Improved Trip
Knockdown
Divine Denial
Mind Sight
Silencing Strike
Pierce Magical Protection

Classes:
Spellthief 6
Witch Slayer 5
WT Barbarian 2
Warblade 5
Mindbender 1
Fighter 1

His modus operandi is to sneak up to his target, silence them, steal any delay death or hide life abilities they have, trip them, dimensionally anchor them with his binding weapon, and use his Witch Slayer disjunction to try to deny them the ability to cast spells or use special abilities. If they fight back somehow, he relies on his spell resistance 11+level, divine denial, mettle, evasion, and good saves to protect him, while using Wall of Blades and Mage Slayer to accent that defense.

[Beheld]

You are a caster. This character intends to kill casters for unspecified reasons. I'd like you to consider three things:

[LIST=1]
You are unaware that this character is coming for you, but he is; does he manage to sneak up on you? What can you do to survive?

Well, the first thing I do is don't live alone. You really need to give a level range, it is probably in the character information, but I am trying to avoid spoilers. Also some idea of the OP level, since if persist spells is allowed, I start by Persisting Greater or Superior Invis, but if not, then I rely on detection instead of stacking so much on that I basically don't exist to most people.

[Doctor Despair]

Well, the first thing I do is don't live alone. You really need to give a level range, it is probably in the character information, but I am trying to avoid spoilers. Also some idea of the OP level, since if persist spells is allowed, I start by Persisting Greater or Superior Invis, but if not, then I rely on detection instead of stacking so much on that I basically don't exist to most people.

I added it in. OP level, for sure. :) It's not nearly as much of a challenge otherwise.

[Xervous]

A short little blip before I have to tend to house maintenance...

RAW Mind Blank doesn't stop Mindsight, so the wizard can notice you coming with that. IIRC only Cerebral Blind from Slayer6 evades mindsight (short of simply not being on the same plane).

[Doctor Despair]

A short little blip before I have to tend to house maintenance...

RAW Mind Blank doesn't stop Mindsight, so the wizard can notice you coming with that. IIRC only Cerebral Blind from Slayer6 evades mindsight (short of simply not being on the same plane).

Mindsight is a pretty rude feat, yeah. :/ The simplest answer to that is, of course, a charge from 105 feet away, though that has its own limitations involved. It does seem silly that it negates an entire character archetype, but I'm not sure exactly what to do about it apart from, perhaps, take god-blooded of vecna and use the enigma aura to make the caster forget you were ever there, that that seems a bit extreme.

Edit: That is, of course, assuming telepathy does not require line of effect, which it does not say it does.

[Necroticplague]

1. Probably not. I myself can have Mindsight using the same method he is, which Darkstalker doesn't protect against, so I know he's coming from 100 feet away. Or I have Lifesight, as a Ghost Archivist (build: Ghost template class 1 archivist 19), which might give me even more warning (your attempts at being stealthy are killed by the fact that, as far as I can see, you're glowing). Both your spell-effect snatching and your silencing require you to Sneak Attack, impossible against the undead, so that's out. Similarly, tripping doesn't work against the incorporeal, so that's also out. If I detect you, I simply un-manifest, escaping to a whole plane away. If I want to kill him, I make plentiful use of Orbs of Fire.

2.Nope. Teleport through Time, he's dead before he develops any of his abilities though, given above, it's unnecessary.

[Doctor Despair]

1. Probably not. I myself can have Mindsight using the same method he is, which Darkstalker doesn't protect against, so I know he's coming from 100 feet away. Or I have Lifesight, as a Ghost Archivist (build: Ghost template class 1 archivist 19), which might give me even more warning (your attempts at being stealthy are killed by the fact that, as far as I can see, you're glowing). Both your spell-effect snatching and your silencing require you to Sneak Attack, impossible against the undead, so that's out. Similarly, tripping doesn't work against the incorporeal, so that's also out. If I detect you, I simply un-manifest, escaping to a whole plane away. If I want to kill him, I make plentiful use of Orbs of Fire.

2.Nope. Teleport through Time, he's dead before he develops any of his abilities though, given above, it's unnecessary.

If I understand it correctly, a full-body suit should stop lifesense's light since it behaves like regular light and emanates from your body? That's a good thing to know! A wand of gravestrike and adding ghosttouch to the weapon should help with the incorporeal undead aspects. As for other methods of detection, it is seeming more and more necessary to have God-Blooded of Vecna, which is sad, all things considered. I just really hate the flavor of that template. :X

[Beheld]

Alright then, I live in my personal Demiplane, because why live anywhere else, Spells that are active on me at all times include but are not limited to Ghost Form, Shapechange, Superior Invisibility, Non-Detection, Mindblank, Detect Scrying, Elemental Body, Ray Deflection, True Seeing, Immune to all Energy types, Ironguard, Foresight, Greater Dimensional Jumper, Veil of Undeath, Sheltered Vitality, and Favor of the Martyr, Also all the Heart of [Element] spells. All the Caster levels are above 30, because who wants to be dispelled, and my Demiplane has the Limited Magic trait, only spells 1-8, or spells of 9th level in the Universal, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, or Transmutation schools may be cast.

My detections always active include:
True Seeing.
Mindsight 100ft.
Touchsight 130ft.
Blindsense 90ft.
Greater Arcane Sight
Whatever my Shapechange form has.
Spot +71 and listen of +66, half normal penalties for distance on spot.

So I guess the first question is how does he find my demiplane, and then how does he find me, and I probably find him if he shows up in my demiplane (haven't looked at character yet).

If I do find him, I probably shift into some form with really high Dex and then throw my many many many metaed Orbs of Fire at him. Do about 500 untyped damage 500 typed damage and force 4 saves versus Daze for 2 rounds, repeated next round another 500 untyped damage, 500 fire damage, and 4 more saves against Daze 2 rounds.

Now I'll take a look at the character.

_______________________

I see nothing about the character that would allow him to locate the demiplane, locate the Wizard in the Demiplane, or live through a barrage of Fire Orbs, which would trigger from 100ft Mindsight detection or 170ft Touchsight detection or 120ft Greater Arcane Sight detection or whatever spot and listen turn out to be but I have +71 to spot, so it would have to be really high.

EDIT: If you make all the DC 54 Fort saves and have Mettle, he could respond by seeing if you enjoy no save damage at a much smaller amount from lesser orb, or he could easily penetrate your SR (do ones auto fail? If not, succeeds on a 1) and no save stun you with Fleshshiver. Next round you get a save to negate nausea, but since you don't get the save until next round, you just get stunned and mettle can't help. If you were then immune to stunning, he would probably move on to the lesser orbs. Or perhaps if he thought it was just undead immunities because of his Greater Arcane Sight seeing a spell on you that does that, he would just Glass Strike you.

[Doctor Despair]

Alright then, I live in my personal Demiplane, because why live anywhere else, Spells that are active on me at all times include but are not limited to Ghost Form, Shapechange, Superior Invisibility, Non-Detection, Mindblank, Detect Scrying, Elemental Body, Ray Deflection, True Seeing, Immune to all Energy types, Ironguard, Foresight, Greater Dimensional Jumper, Veil of Undeath, Sheltered Vitality, and Favor of the Martyr, Also all the Heart of [Element] spells. All the Caster levels are above 30, because who wants to be dispelled, and my Demiplane has the Limited Magic trait, only spells 1-8, or spells of 9th level in the Universal, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, or Transmutation schools may be cast.

My detections always active include:
True Seeing.
Mindsight 100ft.
Touchsight 130ft.
Blindsense 90ft.
Whatever my Shapechange form has.
Spot +71 and listen of +66, half normal penalties for distance on spot.

So I guess the first question is how does he find my demiplane, and then how does he find me, and I probably find him if he shows up in my demiplane (haven't looked at character yet).

If I do find him, I probably shift into some form with really high Dex and then throw my many many many metaed Orbs of Fire at him. Do about 500 untyped damage 500 typed damage and force 4 saves versus Daze for 2 rounds, repeated next round another 500 untyped damage, 500 fire damage, and 4 more saves against Daze 2 rounds.

Now I'll take a look at the character.

I see nothing about the character that would allow him to locate the demiplane, locate the Wizard in the Demiplane, or live through a barrage of Fire Orbs, which would trigger from 100ft Mindisght detection or 170ft Touchsight detection or whatever spot and listen turn out to be (I don't know what your actual numbers are, also don't know what your spot is, but since you have to hit 40+ranks+dex+bonuses and I didn't figure out ranks myself, you need at least +60 or so, maybe even +70 to have a decent chance of detecting me)

So it seems like spell resistance becomes completely obsolete at this level -- not surprising, but sad all the same, so the dark elf racial features will, it seems, have to be swapped out for Vecna Blooded and... something else that buffs dex. This protects from divination spells, and the enigma aura causes anyone within 120 feet of the user to forget they are there. I suppose at this point I have to wonder how, exactly, that interacts with detection abilities and sneak attack and what not. The ability says that creatures have a 50% chance to forget the creature is there, which based on the Cloak of Mystery ability later seems to be making the creature be forgotten instead of making the enemy forget, if that makes sense, and is not listed as any sort of mind affecting or otherwise ability. Should this mean there is a 50% chance of the hide check being successful? I'm not sure.

For touchsight, the only thing I can think of to circumvent that would be to get access to a staff of ghostform to become ethereal, sadly. Either way, a ghost touch weapon is required. The ghost touch weapon should allow for trips, so long as the tripping is being done by something incorporeal like the weapon or a ghostformed limb.

As for spot, the character has access to trueseeing, 26 ranks wouldn't be unreasonable after bloodlines, a +30 item, and a +5 bonus minimum sticks us at that 60 mark -- which I realize, now, is something to be concerned about. Masterwork glasses could give an additional +2... Not sure how else to buff this without oodles of wisdom.

Swapping a level of spellthief out for Marshal might be a good idea, to motivate dexterity. Regardless, 26 ranks, a +2 item, +8 racial and size bonus, +30 item... Camouflage could give an additional +10 circumstantial. Then, dex and motivate dex could make this a more formidable hide check.

Because this character can't be devoted to divination, I am unsure how he could track down someone truly devoted to hiding in their own demiplane, secure and desiring no contact with the outside world. For other mages who are still on this plane, paying the local bard to gather information and bardic knowledge/knowledge local could help a bit, I'd imagine, though it's a little too vague for my liking.

The warblade is the only answer I currently have to lesser orbs, and it only gets one each round, but it's still cutting damage by 1/4 to 1/2. :) Ideally it wouldn't come to that.

[Troacctid]

Dude relies on melee and can't even fly. I'm a Druid, I just take to the skies and laugh at him, yeah?

If I'm a Wizard, he maybe triggers my Contingency, because I'm a Wizard and I have Contingency. Then I fly out of his reach.

If I'm a Bard, I have ten zillion to Diplomacy, so I don't even need any magic to talk the bastard down. He uses Silencing Strike, not actual Silence, right? Even if he sneaks up and hits me, my familiar can do the talking. He's not going to one-shot me.

If I'm a Psion, he beats my Detect Hostile Intent, but not my Touchsight, so I still see him coming.

Anyway, he has magical auras out the wazoo with all those items he's carrying, so no matter what class I am, he pings pretty loudly on my permanent Arcane Sight, which will make it hard to sneak up on me. Mind Blank doesn't protect your gear IIRC.

[Doctor Despair]

Dude relies on melee and can't even fly. I'm a Druid, I just take to the skies and laugh at him, yeah?

If I'm a Wizard, he maybe triggers my Contingency, because I'm a Wizard and I have Contingency. Then I fly out of his reach.

If I'm a Bard, I have ten zillion to Diplomacy, so I don't even need any magic to talk the bastard down. He uses Silencing Strike, not actual Silence, right? Even if he sneaks up and hits me, my familiar can do the talking. He's not going to one-shot me.

If I'm a Psion, he beats my Detect Hostile Intent, but not my Touchsight, so I still see him coming.

Anyway, he has magical auras out the wazoo with all those items he's carrying, so no matter what class I am, he pings pretty loudly on my permanent Arcane Sight, which will make it hard to sneak up on me. Mind Blank doesn't protect your gear IIRC.

Touchsight could be foiled by Ghostform, which grants also grants flight for the druid example.

Contingency is a silly case, but considering the repercussions of it acting without the caster being aware of the trigger in any sense (if the sunken treasure is within half a mile of the bay, cast dancing lights; if the king's son is a bastard, cast prestidigitation; basically, by a series of yes or no questions, a character could figure out what BAB is, the saves of creatures... it would be ridiculous), I would imagine that the first attack of a sneak attack in a surprise round would resolve (allowing the wizard to become aware of the condition "enemy is within X feet, etc") before the trigger occurred. I'm not sure what all contingency a wizard would want besides teleport (which would be binded), but ideally this guy would make the save. What other things would this guy need to prepare for, do you think?

As for diplomacy shenanigans -- if the bard is known for abusing that, a would-be killer could take 1 on the listen check, take -10 for being in a battle, and ignore the familiar.

[Troacctid]

As for diplomacy shenanigans -- if the bard is known for abusing that, a would-be killer could take 1 on the listen check, take -10 for being in a battle, and ignore the familiar.

I'm not aware of any provision in the rules for voluntarily failing a Listen check, and even if there were, do you really think it's wise to have +0 to your Listen?

-10 isn't a check penalty for being in a battle, BTW, it's the DC to hear a nearby battle.

[Necroticplague]

If I understand it correctly, a full-body suit should stop lifesense's light since it behaves like regular light and emanates from your body?
I don't think so. It doesn't say anything about emnating from the body, it just says that your surrounded by the 60 feet of light from your life-force. Even ignoring that, mind sight+mindbender dip (this build could afford the dip easily)still lets me know from 100 feet away, which is outside of your engagment range.



A wand of gravestrike and adding ghosttouch to the weapon should help with the incorporeal undead aspects. As for other methods of detection, it is seeming more and more necessary to have God-Blooded of Vecna, which is sad, all things considered. I just really hate the flavor of that template. :X
Given the d12 HD vs. your low sneak attack progression, surviving one sneak attack is pretty much a garuntee (especially since mind sight lets me see you from 100 feet, which is to far away for chronocharm+move action to put you in range for a melee attack). Being silenced doesn't stop be from de-manifesting to escape to the Ethereal (note, planar binding and similar don't help either, since I'm already on the ethereal, in addition to the Prime).

If my memory is correct, vecna blooded doesn't stop mind sight or lifesense because neither is a divination spell.

[Doctor Despair]

I'm not aware of any provision in the rules for voluntarily failing a Listen check, and even if there were, do you really think it's wise to have +0 to your Listen?

-10 isn't a check penalty for being in a battle, BTW, it's the DC to hear a nearby battle.

Ohhh, my bad. +5 for being distracted. Nonetheless, investiture in some earplugs or something wouldn't go amiss. Or perhaps a staff of programmed amnesia use to make him forget languages until he is satisfied his mission to kill that bard is fulfilled?

[Beheld]

As for spot, the character has access to trueseeing, 26 ranks wouldn't be unreasonable after bloodlines, a +30 item, and a +5 bonus minimum sticks us at that 60 mark -- which I realize, now, is something to be concerned about. Masterwork glasses could give an additional +2... Not sure how else to buff this without oodles of wisdom.

You don't have access to TrueSeeing at CL 35, so you probably fail against Non_Detection, you definitely fail against MindBlank, so you still can't actually see the Wizard.

Good point, I should probably buy a +30 item of spot, so +101 Spot check. And if we are really cheesing, should probably get bloodlines and Vecna blooded LA maybe Vecna Blooded Phrenic.


Because this character can't be devoted to divination, I am unsure how he could track down someone truly devoted to hiding in their own demiplane, secure and desiring no contact with the outside world. For other mages who are still on this plane, paying the local bard to gather information and bardic knowledge/knowledge local could help a bit, I'd imagine, though it's a little too vague for my liking.

Doesn't need to have no contact, can just use Planar Binding minions and Planeshift to do anything he wants to do, and since he spontaneously divines with his slots before resting, he can probably figure out anything he needs to.

Also, the local bard probably knows nothing about the Wizard in a hole in the ground somewhere.

[Doctor Despair]

I don't think so. It doesn't say anything about emnating from the body, it just says that your surrounded by the 60 feet of light from your life-force. Even ignoring that, mind sight+mindbender dip (this build could afford the dip easily)still lets me know from 100 feet away, which is outside of your engagment range.



Given the d12 HD vs. your low sneak attack progression, surviving one sneak attack is pretty much a garuntee (especially since mind sight lets me see you from 100 feet, which is to far away for chronocharm+move action to put you in range for a melee attack). Being silenced doesn't stop be from de-manifesting to escape to the Ethereal (note, planar binding and similar don't help either, since I'm already on the ethereal, in addition to the Prime).

If my memory is correct, vecna blooded doesn't stop mind sight or lifesense because neither is a divination spell.

His movespeed is 50 from the dark template and levels in barbarian; a casting of expeditious retreat adds 30 to that, or passive magical boots could add 10 iirc? An extra move action from chronocharm should do the trick there.

I'm not sure what to do about the manifesting thing if dimensional anchor won't do the trick. I'm ultimately pushing for a build that involves as little casting as possible.

People remember vecna-blooded for the immunity to divination, but a lesser-known ability it gives is a 120 foot aura that gives you a 50% chance to be forgotten by anything in that range. I'm still unclear on how that would function with a hide check; regardless, charging from a successful hide at 105 feet should work, although you could only steal one spell and silence in that round.

As for the auras... Nondetection wards all of a creature's gear as well as the creature, following the idea that objects use their wearer's saves. Vecna blooded should protect gear from arcane sight.

Edit:


You don't have access to TrueSeeing at CL 35, so you probably fail against Non_Detection, you definitely fail against MindBlank, so you still can't actually see the Wizard.

Good point, I should probably buy a +30 item of spot, so +101 Spot check. And if we are really cheesing, should probably get bloodlines and Vecna blooded LA maybe Vecna Blooded Phrenic.

I'm not competing with you in a character fight; I'm just trying to fill in part three of the prompt since no one seems to want to. :(

[Troacctid]

Vecna-Blooded only protects you, not your items, but you don't actually qualify for Vecna-Blooded so it's somewhat moot. And even with Nondetection at CL 20, you have a lot of magic items and I have a separate 30% chance to detect and locate each of them individually (15 or better beats the DC). It's unlikely that I'll miss them all.

[Beheld]

I'm not competing with you in a character fight; I'm just trying to fill in part three of the prompt since no one seems to want to. :(

I'm just pointing out that Casters can have a Spot modifier way higher than your hide, and also, that if literally your entire character concept comes down to a once a day undefined ability on a poorly written stupid template that you don't even qualify for, but is also negated by the same template, you should probably just go back to the drawing board.

Or more realistically, play in a game that bans absurd cheese, in which case Vecna blooded isn't allowed on anyone, and Mindblank doesn't negate True Seeing, and Darkstalker doesn't exist, and Mindsight doesn't exist, and so not everyone is reliant on duplicating Touchsight and Mindsight to know each other exist in the high level environment.

[MisterKaws]

About the disjunction: Wings of Cover negates line of effect, and as an instantaneous effect, can only be negated by an AMF, where disjunction cannot be cast unless you're using mystra cheese, in which case you are at forgotten realms and should just get a sarrukh already.

[Vizzerdrix]

Hmm... The easiest cop out is to just out contingency him, then hide inside an effigy siege crab while your undead security clobbers him.

Can baleful polymorph be contingencied? Could always use another chicken... :smallconfused:

[MisterKaws]

Hmm... The easiest cop out is to just out contingency him, then hide inside an effigy siege crab while your undead security clobbers him.

Can baleful polymorph be contingencied? Could always use another chicken... :smallconfused:

I think an effigy devastation beetle would be better... actually, just keep a normal friendly devastation beetle around.

...Though I don't even want to think how the heck you're supposed to charm that thing, even with spells.