I think Soon lied.

[evileeyore]

Am I the only one who thinks Soon was lying to her... like you would to a dieing child, "Yes, son, Skippy the Wonder Poochy will be waiting for you in the afterlife..."




Not that I disagree with the approach. It just sort of struck a chord with me.

[Freelance Henchman]

Am I the only one who thinks Soon was lying to her... like you would to a dieing child, "Yes, son, Skippy the Wonder Poochy will be waiting for you in the afterlife..."




Not that I disagree with the approach. It just sort of struck a chord with me.

Since he is (was) a Paladin, I somehow doubt he would resort to such childish practices. Especially to a fellow Paladin who is about to die.

[Tarp]

"Especially to a fellow Paladin who is about to die" ?
well not all your fault, fellow an fallen do look a lot alike... so I`l just take it that you meant the later.

[Snake-Aes]

He had the guts to tell her she wouldn't be rewarded, he wouldn't lie to her about Windstriker. One can't see a lie in the moment of death to be an act of mercy when one's the living proof of afterlife. Just, you know, not.

[Freelance Henchman]

"Especially to a fellow Paladin who is about to die" ?
well not all your fault, fellow an fallen do look a lot alike... so I`l just take it that you meant the later.

Well, she is/was a member of his Order as well.

[tamashii]

Actually… I initially had the thought that Soon was coating the situation a bit for Miko's sake. There are two things that make me think he wasn't telling the whole truth to her:

1. "We will usher you to your destination as well."
Well… what destination is that, exactly? What if Miko isn't going to the same place as other good little paladins go? Soon eludes to a better place but doesn't specifically say it.

2. "He [Windstriker] will visit you as much as he is able."
Why wouldn't he be able to visit her 100% of the time? Wouldn't Miko basically have a steed in the afterlife? Or do horses go to horsey heaven and only get day passes once a month? If Miko isn't going to a happy place, perhaps that is why Windstriker can't actually be with her and must resort to visits.

I don't think Soon would be acting childish to a person who was, in fact, not a paladin (it was stripped from her, remember). He doesn't out-right lie, but there isn't any reason to tell Miko, "Look lady - you are a whack job and because of your selfish and idiotic acts, you gonna pay the price."

[Yuki Akuma]

She's probably still Lawful Good, so she gets to go to the same afterlife as Soon. That's also where Windstrike lives (as he's Lawful Good, too).

Why would he lie to her, anyway? She'll known in a few seconds which afterlife she ends up getting, so the lie would last very long.

[BisectedBrioche]

Maybe Miko's going to be reincarnated as a more stable Paladin and keep Windstriker?

[Jefepato]

I tend to agree that lying to someone who's about to see their afterlife serves absolutely no purpose and would, in fact, be cruel. If Soon could tell Miko honestly why she can't be a paladin again (and as a paladin himself, he could hardly do otherwise), I think he could be honest about her afterlife.

[Lòkki Gallansbayne]

Soon is one of the paladiniest paladins that ever paladined; he wouldn't lie without an extremely good cause too. He might be a bit tactful with the truth to soften the blow, as tamashii suggested, but I see no reason why he would outright lie just to make Miko feel good, especially as - as others have said - she's going to know exactly what her fate is soon enough.

[Bluelantern]

She's probably still Lawful Good, so she gets to go to the same afterlife as Soon. That's also where Windstrike lives (as he's Lawful Good, too).

Why would he lie to her, anyway? She'll known in a few seconds which afterlife she ends up getting, so the lie would last very long.

I don't truly think she is LG, but more to LN with good tendecies, if anything, she would be to a realm similar to of Saint Cuthbert, while paladins go to the 7 heavens. The problem is that we don't know how the outer planes are in OOTS-verse, I would not doubt the possibility of Miko and Roy meeting each other in the afterlife.

funny idea:

Roy and Miko are in the afterlife, both start to argue that the other shouldn't be there, they start to insult and scream, and after a moment of silence have a kiss.

[Snake-Aes]

There's no "Lawful Neutral with good tendencies" in D&D
She's LG or she's not LG, and as far as we know the only truly evil act she commited was the murder of shojo. Her whole history, and her ideals, are all still LG, she still wants the best of others, she still wants to get rid of evil.

[Lòkki Gallansbayne]

I really wouldn't like it if Roy and Miko hooked up in the afterlife. For a start they hate each other's guts and secondly Roy has Celia. While it could be potentially amusing, it would be a bit soap opera for my liking, on top of being so completely implausible.

Edit: ololz I didn't notice the "funny idea" line. I was confused because this isn't the Belkar's Romantic Interest thread or the OotS House of Horrors thread. :smalltongue: Oh well, I stand by what I said.

[Elliot Kane]

I think Soon is being gentle with her, sure, but he's a paladin's paladin - there's no way he's lying, just being careful to comfort her while she's dying.

"We will usher you to your destination as well." does sound kinda like "You're not going to the same place we are" though, I must admit. It was certainly my first impression, and would make sense if Miko is now LN.

[Freelance Henchman]

I don't truly think she is LG, but more to LN with good tendecies

Problem is, thats not "Good" enough for a Paladin. Right up to the point where she killed Shojo, she stil had her Paladin powers, and a Paladin *can not be* anything other than Lawful Good, or he is not a Paladin. Which she was. So, arguably after Shojo's murder she may not be LG anymore, but before IN THE OPINION OF THE GODS she was LG!

[Kesnit]

Actually… I initially had the thought that Soon was coating the situation a bit for Miko's sake. There are two things that make me think he wasn't telling the whole truth to her:

1. "We will usher you to your destination as well."
Well… what destination is that, exactly? What if Miko isn't going to the same place as other good little paladins go? Soon eludes to a better place but doesn't specifically say it.

2. "He [Windstriker] will visit you as much as he is able."
Why wouldn't he be able to visit her 100% of the time? Wouldn't Miko basically have a steed in the afterlife? Or do horses go to horsey heaven and only get day passes once a month? If Miko isn't going to a happy place, perhaps that is why Windstriker can't actually be with her and must resort to visits.

I wondered about the second one when I read the comic (didn't pick up on the first). Though I wouldn't classify either statement as a lie. The SG could take Miko to her destination - whether that is LG heaven, LN heaven, or Mechanius (sp?). And Windstriker could visit, assuming he could get to whatever plane she is on.

Poor Miko, to be seperated from her only friend (Windstriker) forever... :(

[Snake-Aes]

Problem is, thats not "Good" enough for a Paladin. Right up to the point where she killed Shojo, she stil had her Paladin powers, and a Paladin *can not be* anything other than Lawful Good, or he is not a Paladin. Which she was. So, arguably after Shojo's murder she may not be LG anymore, but before IN THE OPINION OF THE GODS she was LG!

Paladin Falling doesn't come out only of alignment change, it can come from ANY mistake interpreted as Evil. I don't think she changed alignment.

[Zidahya]

Problem is, thats not "Good" enough for a Paladin. Right up to the point where she killed Shojo, she stil had her Paladin powers, and a Paladin *can not be* anything other than Lawful Good, or he is not a Paladin. Which she was. So, arguably after Shojo's murder she may not be LG anymore, but before IN THE OPINION OF THE GODS she was LG!


Wrong! Its DnD 3.5 a Paladin must share the same Alignement as his deity but it don't have to be LG. Otherwise only the LG Gods could have Paladins at thats not true.

[dragoncmd]

There's no "Lawful Neutral with good tendencies" in D&D
She's LG or she's not LG, and as far as we know the only truly evil act she commited was the murder of shojo. Her whole history, and her ideals, are all still LG, she still wants the best of others, she still wants to get rid of evil.

Go read the book of exalted deeds.

[jindra34]

Wrong! Its DnD 3.5 a Paladin must share the same Alignement as his deity but it don't have to be LG. Otherwise only the LG Gods could have Paladins at thats not true.

WRONG! in DnD 3.5 of paladin (at least offically) must still have an alignment of LG. And one evil act leads to a fall.

[Snake-Aes]

Go read the book of exalted deeds.

That's never been used here before, unless there's a direct reference to it, there's no usage of it here.

Zidahya, I think you are thinking of clerics.

[Ryuuk]

Actually Zidahya, as fas as Core goes, Paladins have to be Lawful Good. Any other Paladin style class out there that doesn't go by this, like those in the srd are simply variants.

[Morty]

Nah, he's not lying. First, he's a paladin. Second, if he were lying, it'd cause Miko grief in afterlife- not something LG paladin would want.

[elliott20]

Soon is one of the paladiniest paladins that ever paladined; he wouldn't lie without an extremely good cause too. He might be a bit tactful with the truth to soften the blow, as tamashii suggested, but I see no reason why he would outright lie just to make Miko feel good, especially as - as others have said - she's going to know exactly what her fate is soon enough.
From now on, I'm going to strive to use the word "paladining" in my conversations as much as possible, simply because using the word paladin as both a verb and adjective is just fun.

[Gundato]

Wow. It didn't seem all that complex when I read it. Basically, he is saying "You did good Miko. You didn't do as good as we would have liked, but still good. And while you are still not a Paladin, we respect you and will try and make your transition to the afterlife as peaceful as possible."

[jindra34]

Wow. It didn't seem all that complex when I read it. Basically, he is saying "You did good Miko. You didn't do as good as we would have liked, but still good. And while you are still not a Paladin, we respect you and will try and make your transition to the afterlife as peaceful as possible."

Hey i got that vibe too...

[Wrecan]

There's no "Lawful Neutral with good tendencies" in D&D
Yes there is, as far as afterlives go. That's the alignment of those whose afterlives are spent in Arcadia, in between Mechanus (LN) and Celestia (LG).

She could be LG with neutral tendencies, or LN with good tendencies. (I tend to favor the former for her.) Either way, while Soon and the Sapphire Martyrs are on the way to Celestia, Miko is probably on her way to Arcadia. Iin contrast, I think Roy is probably either in Celestia (LG) or Bytopia, the realm in between Celestia (LG) and Elysia (NG).


So, arguably after Shojo's murder she may not be LG anymore, but before IN THE OPINION OF THE GODS she was LG!
Who cares what her alignment was when she fell? Her afterlife is determined by her alignment when she died. Killing Shojo may have caused an alignment shift for all we know. Or she could still be LG, but close enough to neutrality to end up in Arcadia rather than Celestia.


Wrong! Its DnD 3.5 a Paladin must share the same Alignement as his deity but it don't have to be LG. Otherwise only the LG Gods could have Paladins at thats not true.
A paladin must be LG under the rules. But a paladin need not even follow a deity. A paladin need only be LG and follow a rules-compliant Code of Conduct. Any god with LG followers could conceivably have paladins dedicated to them. That would include LG, LN and NG deities.

[Kesnit]

Zidahya, I think you are thinking of clerics.

Even then, he's still wrong. Clerics don't have to have the same alignment as their deity. They just have to be within one step of their deity. A LE god could have a LN, LE, or NE cleric.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

Soon didn't lie, although I think he may have said things that were open to interpretation. He stated that the 12 gods turned their back on Miko. That leads me to believe that she won't be going to the same afterlife as the other paladins. The bit about Windstriker makes me think that even more. She won't be in the same afterlife, but that doesn't mean she can't get the ocasional extra-planar visitor from time to time.

[kyrin]

There's no "Lawful Neutral with good tendencies" in D&D.

Hmmm... I'm sure all those folks in Arcadia are going to be surprised to hear that...

And maybe Windstriker will be assigned to another paladin, and can only visit with Miko when he's not "on duty."

JIM
aka kyrin

[jamroar]

WRONG! in DnD 3.5 of paladin (at least offically) must still have an alignment of LG. And one evil act leads to a fall.

A non-LG god can sponsor paladins, but the paladins themselves still have to be LG. Usually this means the god is one alignment step of LG like clerics, meaning they are generally agreeable to lawful good behavior, with only very few exceptions for thematic reasons (Sune).

[Renegade Paladin]

Wrong! Its DnD 3.5 a Paladin must share the same Alignement as his deity but it don't have to be LG. Otherwise only the LG Gods could have Paladins at thats not true.
http://www.libriumarcana.com/Uploads/Rogue/Pictures/JPEGs/incorrect4dr.jpg

The D&D v 3.5 SRD, with full errata. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm#codeofConduct)


Code of Conduct

A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Gods who are not lawful good can have paladins... provided they are lawful neutral or neutral good, that is to say within one alignment step. But the paladins still have to be lawful good.

[Helios Sunshard]

I think Miko is going to some sort of Mount Purgatorium world, i mean, even if the comic is based in DnD, there can be another kind of place. Miko will probably work her way to the celestial realm trying to clean her soul and notice about her errors, then she will be at one step to enter the godly realm... just to be Ressurected by someone and notice that world needs her help, this time not as a blind zealot, but rather as a fallen paladin who will correct missdead untill atoned.

Well, that is the best (im)possible scenario, or we could have:

1.:miko:: Windstriker, come here, let me wash your hair.

2.:miko:: Lord Shojo! want to compare scars? (somehow, they meet in the afterlife)

3.:miko:: Back to live, thank you evil-guy-who-just-ressed-me, uh, nice black clothes!

4.:miko:: Roy, i want to say: sorry...

5.:miko:: Roy, i want to say: *Slash*

6.(a lot of time):miko:: Hi durkon, how is everybody?

[Telonius]

I don't think that Soon lied. Everything he tells her is true. He doesn't sugarcoat the fact that she didn't redeem herself. But he does give her a bit of comfort. She might not be going to Celestia, but then again she might. And even if she doesn't, Windstriker probably can travel to whatever plane she'll be in.

[TheNovak]

Yeah, what Kyrin said. Read up on Arcadia, folks with access to Manual of the Planes :smalltongue:

I don't know where anyone's getting this "Lawful Good" crap from. She killed an unarmed man, which was an Evil act that got her paladinhood stripped away. Instead of admitting she made a mistake, she went on a rampage, asked the gods to "enlighten" (or rather, "agree") with her, escaped her prison cell in the hope of immediately seeking revenge, and began interpreting her own decisions and free will as signs and portents that the gods supported her every action.

I don't know about you, but were I DMing, she'd have gotten a full alignment shift to Lawful Neutral. And she'd have been borderline for quite some time before that, too.

Also, Windstriker's a celestial warhorse. By the simple fact of his existence, he gets to hang out in Good Guy Heaven, so if he and Miko were in the same plane, they could hang out all the time. Since that evidently isn't the case...

And Soon was just letting her down gently, but firmly. When she gets to the gates of Lawful Neutral Land, she'll either fully understand the weight of her actions, or she'll flip out and try to escape the afterlife. Either one will be entertaining.

[Green Bean]

Actually… I initially had the thought that Soon was coating the situation a bit for Miko's sake. There are two things that make me think he wasn't telling the whole truth to her:

1. "We will usher you to your destination as well."
Well… what destination is that, exactly? What if Miko isn't going to the same place as other good little paladins go? Soon eludes to a better place but doesn't specifically say it.

2. "He [Windstriker] will visit you as much as he is able."
Why wouldn't he be able to visit her 100% of the time? Wouldn't Miko basically have a steed in the afterlife? Or do horses go to horsey heaven and only get day passes once a month? If Miko isn't going to a happy place, perhaps that is why Windstriker can't actually be with her and must resort to visits.


1. I dunno. Soon said he'd be ushering her to her destination, and unless magical positive energy ghosts have a planeshift ability, then the only way he'd be able to usher her is if they're going to the same place.

2. Well, celestial horses are valuable, and Windstriker's probably back on the market, serving a paladin of the Ruby Sentinels over in Bizzaro world.

[Takezo]

Am I the only one who sees a LOT of Miko's recent actions as...chaotic?

Chaotic good characters act as their conscience directs them with little regard for what others expect. My perspective has been that Miko has been sliding along the alignment axis towards chaotic good for some time.

Now, I do not question that killing Shojo was an evil act. It was, and she was stripped of her paladin status for it. On the other hand...I saw that act as the "straw that broke the camel's back" pushing her over to a chaotic alignment shift. In other words, she lost her paladin status because of the evil act, but she was (and is) beyond redemption because of the alignment change.

Now, as a dead chaotic good character she could shortly be arriving...where Roy is! :biggrin: That I cannot wait to see.

Though I suppose that may not be possible if she is Chaotic...but Elan seemed to think it was not possible. I think believing the opposite of anything Elan says could be construed as a valid logical argument.

[elliott20]

1. I dunno. Soon said he'd be ushering her to her destination, and unless magical positive energy ghosts have a planeshift ability, then the only way he'd be able to usher her is if they're going to the same place.

2. Well, celestial horses are valuable, and Windstriker's probably back on the market, serving a paladin of the Ruby Sentinels over in Bizzaro world.

Ruby Sentinels, Emerald Sentries, same difference.

[Lòkki Gallansbayne]

^ ^ But Miko wasn't acting regardless of the thoughts of others. Everything she did, she was doing it because she believe it to be the will of the Twelve Gods. She may have been mistaken, but I don't believe she was being Chaotic.

Also, Roy in CG heaven? What? It's been made explicit in the comic that Roy is Lawful Good. If you want CG characters, look to Elan and maybe Haley, but both of them are still alive and kicking.

[Revlid]

^ ^ But Miko wasn't acting regardless of the thoughts of others. Everything she did, she was doing it because she believe it to be the will of the Twelve Gods. She may have been mistaken, but I don't believe she was being Chaotic.

Also, Roy in CG heaven? What? It's been made explicit in the comic that Roy is Lawful Good. If you want CG characters, look to Elan and maybe Haley, but both of them are still alive and kicking.

Or Shojo. :smallbiggrin:

[dehro]

1. "We will usher you to your destination as well."
Well… what destination is that, exactly? What if Miko isn't going to the same place as other good little paladins go? Soon eludes to a better place but doesn't specifically say it.

2. "He [Windstriker] will visit you as much as he is able."
Why wouldn't he be able to visit her 100% of the time? Wouldn't Miko basically have a steed in the afterlife? Or do horses go to horsey heaven and only get day passes once a month? If Miko isn't going to a happy place, perhaps that is why Windstriker can't actually be with her and must resort to visits.



not knowing the finer details of d&d on trespassing and afterlife, I'll just guess
1)she died in the line of duty an was still a member of the saphire guard, be it not as a paladin anymore. I guess since she did wrong quite a lot of things, Soon will have to try to plead her cause higher up the spiritual chain of command and try to get her peace and maybe time to think, in the afterlife..something that is quite difficult when you're in a burning pit of fire and being shouted at by belkarshaped demons, as her current status of "being despised by the gods" should grant her
2) windstriker is a planar creature, probably "assigned" to paladins in their duty...I guess he will continue his allegiance with the remainder of the order, and by doing so, will have limited time for courtesy visits..
or she might simply be to "far" to reach or in a place wher he can't stay for a long time.

Soon lying is something that's aching to Xykon getting a sunburn...unlikely

[Aquillion]

"We will usher you to your destination as well." does sound kinda like "You're not going to the same place we are" though, I must admit. It was certainly my first impression, and would make sense if Miko is now LN.The afterlife planes in D&D are not monolithic within alignments; there are special places inside LG planes where only Paladins get to go when they die. So Miko could still get a LG afterlife, while going to a "different place" from Soon et all on account of not being a Paladin anymore.

[evileeyore]

Am I the only one who thinks Soon was lying to her... like you would to a dieing child, "Yes, son, Skippy the Wonder Poochy will be waiting for you in the afterlife..."More food for thought:

I don't think "We will usher you to your destination as well" means she is dead.

No.

Rather I think she'll manage somehow to come out this alive. Or atleast Rezzed.

But her Paladin days are probably over.

Look at Soon's face in the last panel. In fact look at his expression in every panel.

The only one he acts at all "happy" in is when telling her that Windstrider is waiting and will visit as often as he can. Kinda the same way a parent would get a "brave face" for a dying Little Timmy.




Also, keep in mind: Paladins can lie.


Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities...A lie to spare someone some pain in thier last moments is neither Evil nor a gross violation of the Paladin Code of Conduct. I don't care how strictly worded.

[KillerCardinal]

Okay, for anyone who is curious about the planes, here's a wiki link to info about all the outer planes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Plane). Its got info about arcadia and all the others in there.

[Morty]

Also, keep in mind: Paladins can lie.


Yup, they can. But would they? Soon doesn't look like someone who would lie in any circumstances. Unbreakable honor and all that.
Besides, as I said, Miko would be painfully disappointed if Soon's promise were a lie; not something a paladin would want.

[Randalf]

I think saying that Miko switched alignments would be contrary to what OOTS has had to say so far about the whole alignment system. If anybody recalls the speech at the end of the Order's Trial, there was a whole bit about how the alignment system shouldn't be read rigidly. Rich seems to think alignments are more aspirations and goals of your character then reflections of said character from a impartial third party point of view.

I don't think Miko ever stopped believing in Lawful Good, or striving to do what was Lawful Good. She was just massively confused about what the right act was, and wound up committing acts that might be objectively Chaotic or Evil, thinking they were Lawful or Good. Thus, if I was the DM, I wouldn't change her alignment.

That said, I think some sort of purgatory is in order for her in the afterlife.

[Zaldrak]

More food for thought:

I don't think "We will usher you to your destination as well" means she is dead.

No.

Rather I think she'll manage somehow to come out this alive

X_X

Enough said.

[Tobrian]

Soon is one of the paladiniest paladins that ever paladined; he wouldn't lie without an extremely good cause too. He might be a bit tactful with the truth to soften the blow, as tamashii suggested, but I see no reason why he would outright lie just to make Miko feel good, especially as - as others have said - she's going to know exactly what her fate is soon enough.

You took the words out of my mouth.


I don't know where anyone's getting this "Lawful Good" crap from. She killed an unarmed man, which was an Evil act that got her paladinhood stripped away. Instead of admitting she made a mistake, she went on a rampage, asked the gods to "enlighten" (or rather, "agree") with her, escaped her prison cell in the hope of immediately seeking revenge, and began interpreting her own decisions and free will as signs and portents that the gods supported her every action.

There's no "Lawful Neutral with good tendencies" in D&D
She's LG or she's not LG, and as far as we know the only truly evil act she commited was the murder of shojo. Her whole history, and her ideals, are all still LG, she still wants the best of others, she still wants to get rid of evil.

"Getting rid of evil" does no make you automatically good.
You can be LN without ever committing an evil act. Neutral is an alignment of its own, not just a trashheap for people who can't didn't pass the qualification test for either true good or true evil.

Personally I always saw Miko as having LN tendencies (following the letter of the law, not the spirit of the law; condemning people for technicalities and acts against laws they didn't even know and committed out of accident, etc.) and going fully LN when she fell. Where has Miko EVER wanted "the best of others"??

She may end up in one of the celestrial realms for paladins and other defenders of cosmic order, people who followed the path of obedience to a lawful cause, just not exactly in the realm where the truly shining examples of paladinic virtue and goodness (honesty, humility, faithfulness, forgiveness, selflessness, compassion, and other traditional knightly virtues like that) reside in the afterlife. As Miko still revered the 12 Gods, maybe the various celestrial realms of the Gods of the South are all interconnected and her soul can move around a bit.

Although if there is a Celestrial Bureaucracy up there as per a pseudo-Asian mythology, Miko might be in for a surprise. I can imagine that lawful dead have a lot of paperwork to fill out.



2. "He [Windstriker] will visit you as much as he is able."
Why wouldn't he be able to visit her 100% of the time? Wouldn't Miko basically have a steed in the afterlife? Or do horses go to horsey heaven and only get day passes once a month? If Miko isn't going to a happy place, perhaps that is why Windstriker can't actually be with her and must resort to visits.

Windstriker is a celestrial creature. It's possible that he may be called to serve another young paladin soon and will only be able to visit Miko during those times when he is not on duty in the material plane.



Originally Posted by Snake-Aes
There's no "Lawful Neutral with good tendencies" in D&DYes there is, as far as afterlives go. That's the alignment of those whose afterlives are spent in Arcadia, in between Mechanus (LN) and Celestia (LG).

She could be LG with neutral tendencies, or LN with good tendencies. (I tend to favor the former for her.) Either way, while Soon and the Sapphire Martyrs are on the way to Celestia, Miko is probably on her way to Arcadia. Iin contrast, I think Roy is probably either in Celestia (LG) or Bytopia, the realm in between Celestia (LG) and Elysia (NG).

Who cares what her alignment was when she fell? Her afterlife is determined by her alignment when she died. (snip)

Exactly, even D&D gods are sometimes listed as having/embodying alignment X with tendency Y, esp in the setting-specific supplements.

[Personally I never liked the Planescape version of the afterlife that WotC tries to make obligatory background for all the other D&D core worlds except Eberron. :smallyuk: You snuff it and become an amnesiac petitioner, and get booted to the plane of your alignment or your deity of choice. And then you sort of hang around there waiting for eternal bliss, or your soul gets enslaved and eaten by a passing demon. Meh. How horrible. You'd think no-one ever reincarnates AFTER their death in D&D (ignoring for a moment that silly druid spell). But we seem to be stuck with it as per the Manual of the Planes.]



A paladin must be LG under the rules. But a paladin need not even follow a deity. A paladin need only be LG and follow a rules-compliant Code of Conduct. Any god with LG followers could conceivably have paladins dedicated to them. That would include LG, LN and NG deities.

True, that's why there can be paladins of St Cuthbert the crusader (LG/LN), Wee Jas, goddess of judgement, magic and death (LN), and Pholtus of the Shining Light (LG/LN), although probably not of Tritherion (CG) - he sponsors champions of freedom, more likely.

Edited to add:


I think saying that Miko switched alignments would be contrary to what OOTS has had to say so far about the whole alignment system.

Where?


If anybody recalls the speech at the end of the Order's Trial, there was a whole bit about how the alignment system shouldn't be read rigidly. Rich seems to think alignments are more aspirations and goals of your character then reflections of said character from a impartial third party point of view.

Technically an alignment label should exist wholly on a character sheet as a metagaming part of the character. Unfortunately TSR/WotC put all those alignment-based attacks and alignment-detection spells right into the game on thus wrote it into the game on PC-level. :smallannoyed: But fans have been discussing this over this a thousand times.

The rulesbooks lplainly state that alignments are absolute in D&D, good and evil ,law and chaos are cosmic forces. It does not matter what you think you are alignment-wise, you still lget judged by a third party point of view of the universe... unfortunately this is the DM, who may view things differently than the player.

What people often get ass-backwards is that the "alignment is not a straightjacket" phrase means that a character who is CN is not somehow metaphysically unable to keep his word if he wants to or to act lawful once in a while or to sacrifice himself for his friends. And a LG character is not unable to murder someone in cold blood. He just would not usually do so, because of his conscience.

I blame it on the old 1st and 2nd edition (A)D&D, back when some game designers apparently thought an alignment label was some sort of geas, written in stone: thus we got rules that any character was punished with double level loss if he dared deviate from his starting alignment because for example of a change in his personality and personal worldview over time! Or that elves could not be druids (huh? tree-hugger elves cannot be druids? yeah) because all elves were obligated by the rules to be of good alignment, and druids HAD to be true neutral. And evil characters were expected to act horribly evil 24/7, and could not be allowed to ever take a break from punching old grannies in the face and stealing candy from babies. *rolls eyes* Thankfully those times are in the past now.


I don't think Miko ever stopped believing in Lawful Good, or striving to do what was Lawful Good. She was just massively confused about what the right act was, and wound up committing acts that might be objectively Chaotic or Evil, thinking they were Lawful or Good. Thus, if I was the DM, I wouldn't change her alignment.

Um, sorry what? :smallconfused: By that convoluted logic, NO paladin would ever fall from grace, as long as he deluded himself into thinking "Hey, I'm still adhering to my codex! I'm still lawful and good... and I'll kill anyone who says differently!" Sorry, no. You don't get to set your own alignment as a character. As you yourself wrote above, a character can have aspirations to live a life of virtue, but that does not mean he really lives up to it. Otherwise Jack the Ripper and Torquemada of the Spanish Inquisition would have been LG.


That said, I think some sort of purgatory is in order for her in the afterlife.

I favor reincarnation for her, giving her the chance to start over anew. But perhaps for the moment, it's best for her if her soul can rest, allowing her to lose her onfrontational attitude and ponder her mistakes.

[jamroar]

True, that's why there can be paladins of St Cuthbert the crusader (LG/LN), Wee Jas, goddess of judgement, magic and death (LN), and Pholtus of the Shining Light (LG/LN), although probably not of Tritherion (CG) - he sponsors champions of freedom, more likely.

Incidently, Pholtus(god of LG fanatics from GH) would so thoroughly approve of Miko's actions, give her a fscking medal for being an exemplar, and re-sponsor her paladinhood.

[Kaziel]

Am I the only one who thinks Soon was lying to her... like you would to a dieing child, "Yes, son, Skippy the Wonder Poochy will be waiting for you in the afterlife..."




Not that I disagree with the approach. It just sort of struck a chord with me.Um... huh? Lie how? He didn't say she was going to Arcadia. He didn't say she was getting her Paladinhood back. He was even bluntly fair about why she didn't get it back. I don't think he would lie to her about a minor detail like Windchaser (if I'm understanding it right) after being so brutally honest prior to that.

[Tobrian]

Incidently, Pholtus(god of LG fanatics from GH) would so thoroughly approve of Miko's actions, give her a fscking medal for being an exemplar, and re-sponsor her paladinhood.

On the other hand, Miko went against rightful authority when she attacked Shojo and Hinjo. Pholteans created the rigid police-state Theocracy of the Pale on World of Greyhawk, remember. Pholtus would make Miko a Gray Guard and tell her to go slaughter heretics and wizards.

All tables listing gods of Greyhawk I've seen list Pholtus as LG with strong LN tendencies, or as LN. Otherwise where's the diff between him and Heironeous? (Personally I'd see ol' Pholtus as LE, because simply opposing evil humanoids and "evil" spellcasters (meaning everyone) does NOT make you a good guy. Hello, lots of LE tyrants and dictators or organizations do not like competition and eradicate it ruthlessly.

[Zoolooman]

I don't think Miko ever stopped believing in Lawful Good, or striving to do what was Lawful Good. She was just massively confused about what the right act was, and wound up committing acts that might be objectively Chaotic or Evil, thinking they were Lawful or Good. Thus, if I was the DM, I wouldn't change her alignment.

She stopped believing in law when she sliced the unarmed Hinjo during her arrest. After that, she pretty much acted chaotically.

[Randalf]

Tobrian:

I think a Paladin can still fall even if their views don't change because they have to answer to their Gods, who act as an impartial third party that can ultimately pass judgment on them. You stray too far from the mark and it doesn't matter what you think you're doing, your God of choice gets the final say. I don't think that changing alignment is that absolute. Torquemada makes a good example, because he ultimately crossed over into the territory of "evil" through zealotry, the same path that Miko was on, but he had a lifetime for his views to slowly warp to the point that you'd have to call him LN at best or LE at worst.

The difference between him and Miko though is that Miko led a life of Good (edgy Good, but demonstrative Good none the less, since she never lost her paladin alignment until late in her career) and only toward the end began a real downward spiral. She certainly did some terrible things trying to implement her Lawful Good veiws, but I don't think she had enough time on that spiral for her actions to really start warping her views themselves. Or it could be I give her way too much credit for good intentions, feel free to disagree.

Zoolman:

Yeah, if I was going to shift Miko's alignment at all, I'd say it shifted toward Chaotic, not Evil. Ultimately though, I see it as an issue of Miko deciding that her duties as a Paladin of the Gods superseded her duties as the Paladin of the secular ruler. The laws of the Gods are Laws as well, and Miko just prioritized one over the other, which still strikes me as basically lawful, not chaotic.

Incidentally, It'll be pretty interesting to read what the Giant has to say about the whole Miko thing when this chapter comes out in paperback, won't it?

[fruityjanitor]

Also, keep in mind: Paladins can lie.


Yeah, but they probably aren't very good at it. Like you said, the only panel he is smiling in is the one where he is telling her Windstriker can visit. Somebody who lies as infrequently as Soon would probably make an awkward pause before/during the lie and be unable to make sure his facial expression matches what he is saying.

For that same reasoning, I really doubt Miko is going to a place where "Windstriker visiting as much as he can" means "Windstriker never visits because he cannot go to that plane."

[Fanatic-Templar]

I think Miko's going to Arcadia, while Windstriker will likely be in Mount Celestia. Other than the fact that Miko simply screams 'Einheriar', I will quote from a passage from the 'Peaceable Kingdoms of Arcadia' passage in the 3.0 Manual of the Planes.


In fact, the inhabitants of Arcadia are often so convinced of their own righteousness that they are hard-pressed to recognize their own flaws. This likely contributed millennia ago to the loss of the bottommost layer of Arcadia, Menausus, which spiritually transmigrated to Mechanus, becoming one with the gear-works of ultimate law.

Sound familiar?

[bluewind95]

Somebody who lies as infrequently as Soon would probably make an awkward pause before/during the lie and be unable to make sure his facial expression matches what he is saying.



As a bad liar, I must agree. I generally either pause, or burst out laughing, or attempt to correct myself mid-sentence. Or other things like that that immediately give me away.

I personally think that Soon was smiling because that's about the ONLY bit of good news he had to give to her. Even if she goes to a LG afterlife... she's still dead and out of time to really atone for the loss of her paladinhood.

[kpenguin]

Also, keep in mind: Paladins can lie.

A lie to spare someone some pain in thier last moments is neither Evil nor a gross violation of the Paladin Code of Conduct. I don't care how strictly worded.

Well....

Code of Conduct
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

By the Paladin Code of Conduct, paladins can't lie. Lying in this case wouldn't be a gross violation, though. Maybe for an extra strict DM. I'd say a gross violation would be of a bold-faced lie.

[Wrecan]

I don't know where anyone's getting this "Lawful Good" crap from. She killed an unarmed man, which was an Evil act that got her paladinhood stripped away.
Or an act that grossly violated her Code of Conduct and got her paladinhood stripped away. Even if it were an evil act, one act of evil doesn't make you evil; it only makes you fall. (Even two acts -- attacking Hinjo -- may not be enough.)


Also, Windstriker's a celestial warhorse. By the simple fact of his existence, he gets to hang out in Good Guy Heaven, so if he and Miko were in the same plane, they could hang out all the time. Since that evidently isn't the case...
There are three LG heavens -- Arcadia, Celestia and Bytopia. Paladin mounts all come from Celestia, so all we know is that Miko isn't going to Celestia. Whether she is going to Bytopia, Arcadia or some othe rplane is open to speculation.

[kpenguin]

Interestingly enough, none of the standard D&D cosmology planes have been mentioned. All Soon said was that they are fading away to the Celestial Realm. Not Celestia or the Seven Mounting Heavens, but the Celestial Realm. OOTSverse cosmology might be very different.

[Kreistor]

If the Giant retained the standard DnD Planar arrangements, Windstriker could visit Miko, but risks destruction for doing so.

[Morty]

Interestingly enough, none of the standard D&D cosmology planes have been mentioned. All Soon said was that they are fading away to the Celestial Realm. Not Celestia or the Seven Mounting Heavens, but the Celestial Realm. OOTSverse cosmology might be very different.

Well, cosmology isn't OGL, so I guess they in fact are completely different.

[oddtail]

The difference between him and Miko though is that Miko led a life of Good (edgy Good, but demonstrative Good none the less, since she never lost her paladin alignment until late in her career) and only toward the end began a real downward spiral. She certainly did some terrible things trying to implement her Lawful Good veiws, but I don't think she had enough time on that spiral for her actions to really start warping her views themselves. Or it could be I give her way too much credit for good intentions, feel free to disagree.

I think that her Good-ness was a stretch even up to the point she lost her paladinhood. I mean, look at what Roy thought of her when he lost his Trouser Titan (NOT! THE! POINT!). And he's LG alright.

I think that Miko is the OotS equivalent of the player having a Paladin Character who keeps getting out of line, but still the DM cuts him some slack. Up to a point. I do think she's LN when she dies.

And as for good intentions... you know what's paved with them, right? ;) but more seriously - it might not be true for melodramatic villains like Xykon (and many other badguys in a world where characters REALISE they have a two-word alignment), but evil people rarely THINK they are evil. Pretty much everyone thinks they're doing right, that's human psychology, isn't it? So, good intentions don't change the fact that you're, in D&D terms, Neutral or even Evil. I believe Jack the Ripper was mentioned in this thread, once. Do you really think the guy didn't think what he did was "good"?

Don't they all?

[Ladorak]

Well in his letters to the press he refers to himself as evil so no, no I don't think he thought himself evil... I mean people who claim to be evil incarnate all really think themselves good guys. I bet Bob Crowley really thought he was going to heaven when he was conjuring demons...

And I don't see Miko as LN, she knowingly sacrifices her life for the greater good, doesn't sound very neutral to me.

[Zaldrak]

I bet Bob Crowley really thought he was going to heaven when he was conjuring demons...
Uh? This guy? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Crowley)

[Ladorak]

Um, in a word, no... This guy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley

[Zoolooman]

Zoolman:

Yeah, if I was going to shift Miko's alignment at all, I'd say it shifted toward Chaotic, not Evil. Ultimately though, I see it as an issue of Miko deciding that her duties as a Paladin of the Gods superseded her duties as the Paladin of the secular ruler. The laws of the Gods are Laws as well, and Miko just prioritized one over the other, which still strikes me as basically lawful, not chaotic.

Incidentally, It'll be pretty interesting to read what the Giant has to say about the whole Miko thing when this chapter comes out in paperback, won't it?

She slew an unarmed king and was (nearly) arrested for the crime of murder. Her response to her own crime was decidedly not lawful good, and her subsequent behavior was similarly ill-motivated.

There are evil acts, and then there are evil acts; there are chaotic acts, and then there are chaotic acts; and when Miko slew Shojo and struck Hinjo, she showed a fundamental downward swing in both alignment axes. You don't kill a king or rebuke the hand of justice unless you've decided that common morality and common law no longer apply to yourself.

[Zaldrak]

Um, in a word, no... This guy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley

I know, I was joking.
Also, he believed in reincarnation, so no, he didn't think he was going to heaven.

[oddtail]

Well in his letters to the press he refers to himself as evil so no, no I don't think he thought himself evil... I mean people who claim to be evil incarnate all really think themselves good guys. I bet Bob Crowley really thought he was going to heaven when he was conjuring demons...

OK, point taken. But still, the majority of people who do bad things think it's proper and that they should do that. Rarely do people say to themselves "OK, I'm going to steal that because I'm SO EVIL!". They rather either avoid thinking about it, or try to excuse themselves in one way or another ("it's what everyone does", "he hit me first", "I'm doing it for the greater good", "those people are evil, anyway", "burning someone on a stake purifies their soul", "I'm not stealing from a person, I'm stealing from The Man", to give a couple of loose examples).

Also, yes, Miko's last act was a good one. But everything leading to it was not. She refused to see why she fell from paladinhood, or acknowledge her mistakes. As Soon rightly points out. She was consumed by her completely unjustified hatred for Roy, just because it made the thought of being an ex-paladin more bearable (I mean, c'mon, she thought her falling was actually part of some kind of a PLOT!). I don't see her as LG. I see her as a rabid fanatic. LN in my book, but the "L" also being doubtful.

[Ladorak]

Ah, forgive me, one is used to people subing Wiki for actual knowledge. My point was, however, that many people do know they're evil. Crowley was the first to spring to mind but there are plenty others

Edit: Ninjaed

Of course people don't do things because they're evil, but they do evil things. As you say they rationalise, as Miko rationalised. So Miko committed Regicide in the name of 'justice,' but it's clear that Shojo was guilty, even Hinjo wanted to arrest him, this does not make her innocent but it's simply continuing the habit of a lifetime.. Smiting evil, as evil is an intangible it's subjective. Miko smites what she believes to be evil, but that's a desision we all have to make... What is evil and what is not.

The defination of 'evil' changes from person to person, the only real meaning it has is when a majority hold something to be evil.

[Zaldrak]

Ah, forgive me, one is used to people subing Wiki for actual knowledge
I do, and you'd better do it too. Well i don't know enough about Jack the ripper, but Crowley never professed he was evil (the "wickedest man in the world" thing was a joke). Heck, he even totally condemned black magic, saying that that he only practiced the white.
I'm not saying that he was a good man (tough there are many people that follow the religion he has founded that would be offended by your statement), only that he definetely didn't consider himself evil.
And yes, i too think that people who openly consider themselves evil are very rare, because you need to believe in a moral code that you consider valid AND then willfully break it to consider yourself evil. Many people who do horrible things think that they are on the good side of the moral scale, or they don't believe in the concept of good and evil at all.

[Ladorak]

Many evil acts are committed in the name of 'good.'
More are committed without morality ever entering the equation.

I can't give RL examples because that's rule braking but

Who's more evil?

A man who kills hundreds in defence of his society (For instance, Roy)
A man who kills fifty to steal their possessions.

There's no real way to answer this question, it's up to the individual. Truth is not a pure crystal that can be passed from one person to another, everyone sees it differently.

[Ridureyu]

Who's more evil?

A man who kills hundreds in defence of his society (For instance, Roy)
A man who kills fifty to steal their possessions.



The second.

[Zaldrak]

The second.

Even if the first one is, say, a nazi leader?

[EvilJames]

There's no "Lawful Neutral with good tendencies" in D&D
She's LG or she's not LG, and as far as we know the only truly evil act she commited was the murder of shojo. Her whole history, and her ideals, are all still LG, she still wants the best of others, she still wants to get rid of evil.

That's not entirly true. Arcadia is essentially a plane for those who skirt the border between LG and LN. While ther is no actual alignment of Lg with LN tendancies (or visa versa depending on your point of view) So while she still pays attaintion to morals she duty and honor seem to take precedence over them a bit. It's more just a playing style dealing with which aspect of her alignment she put the most emphasis on. Those Celestia bound blance the two Arcadia bound side with law, if given a conflict. However Arcadia is still an upper plain so it's hardly a bad place to end up


There are evil acts, and then there are evil acts; there are chaotic acts, and then there are chaotic acts; and when Miko slew Shojo and struck Hinjo, she showed a fundamental downward swing in both alignment axes. You don't kill a king or rebuke the hand of justice unless you've decided that common morality and common law no longer apply to yourself.

or if you think the court system the king would go through is to corrupt to properly give justice (as she thought)

[Ladorak]

*Is unaware of any high ranking Nazi that killed a hundred people*

But you're right, there is not enough information in the statement. Which socity? Why is the thief stealing? Maybe she has a father locked up somewhere and is trying to pay the bail.

My point is evil is subjective. In OotS we know what's evil because we have gods and detect evil spells to tell us what's evil. In RL we all make up our own minds. Abortion, Steam cell research, GM... Even things like pain killers and blood transplants. We all make up our own minds.

Evil is an abstract concept, like honour, justice and mercy. They're words we use to describe feelings we have about tangible events and emotional responces. Miko committed Regicide in the name of 'good.' It will be a poor god that does not bear this in mind when passing judgment

[Zaldrak]

*Is unaware of any high ranking Nazi that killed a hundred people*
Well, they usually killed way more. Actually some low ranking may qualify.

[Randalf]

have we passed the threshold of Goddard's Law here?

Anyway, I think the point the Nazi comparison misses is that Roy killed armed soldiers in the defense of his city. They were literally running at the walls with the intent to break them down and raze the place.

As to the Nazis? Well, I believe they did start that one. Sure, mabye Hitler thought he was acting in defense of the human race, or some crap like that, but that's splitting hairs, in my opinion. He was the aggressor, not the defender.

[Zaldrak]

have we passed the threshold of Goddard's Law here?

Anyway, I think the point the Nazi comparison misses is that Roy killed armed soldiers in the defense of his city. They were literally running at the walls with the intent to break them down and raze the place.

As to the Nazis? Well, I believe they did start that one. Sure, mabye Hitler thought he was acting in defense of the human race, or some crap like that, but that's splitting hairs, in my opinion. He was the aggressor, not the defender.

No one compared Roy to a nazi.
And nazis killed many german people too. Those killings where totally in defense of their society, at least in their eyes.

[Ladorak]

I actually meant 'killed' as in 'killed.' Not ordered the deaths of but actually murdered.

But there's another one for you. Is it a lesser evil to order a kiling then commit a killing? Is a killer less guilty if someone ordered him to do it?

Abstracts. Morality is possibly the most important thing in human society, which is ironic because nobody has the same take on it.

[outlander]

I think the issue here is that miko would be judged by her whole life, not just the fragment we've seen.

One assumes miko had a life before her introduction to the series, and that giver her rank in the SG it must have been replete with good deeds and such, like her saving of the peasants from the ogres on the way to AC.

One further assumes that miko's plethora of past good deeds will have to be weighed along with her lapses in judgment near the end, and that she will likely get to some sort of heaven, altho not the high one reserved for paladins.

Maybe instead of the palace in the celestial kingdom, she'll be in the celestial suburbs. Windstriker may get assigned to another paladin, and visit her when he's "off duty".

So remember, Soon was likely judging her by her entire life, not just what we saw. He had a fuller perspective than we did.

Come to think of it, miko likely knew smashing the gate would kill her, she did it anyway believing it was the right thing to do and the will of the gods. So she willingly gave her life for what she believed to be right and good. Sounds like compelling grounds for a good judgement on her.

[Zaldrak]

But there's another one for you. Is it a lesser evil to order a kiling then commit a killing? Is a killer less guilty if someone ordered him to do it?


Actually, by MY moral standards, it is more evil to order someone else to do it, because you make him a (possibly unwilling) accomplice in the act. It's worst especially if the one ordered cannot refuse without risking his life.

[Renx]

Actually… I initially had the thought that Soon was coating the situation a bit for Miko's sake. There are two things that make me think he wasn't telling the whole truth to her:

1. "We will usher you to your destination as well."
Well… what destination is that, exactly? What if Miko isn't going to the same place as other good little paladins go? Soon eludes to a better place but doesn't specifically say it.

Paladins are basically the Gods' counterpart of armsmen. I'd say getting duties in their afterlives makes sense, and some of said duties will probably include delivering souls to their proper resting places. While not exactly standard D&D, the Giant has shown before the willingness to bend rules for Story. And besides, it'd be a perfectly legal DM call anyway.


2. "He [Windstriker] will visit you as much as he is able." Why wouldn't he be able to visit her 100% of the time? Wouldn't Miko basically have a steed in the afterlife? Or do horses go to horsey heaven and only get day passes once a month? If Miko isn't going to a happy place, perhaps that is why Windstriker can't actually be with her and must resort to visits.

There's not all that much source data on afterlives. Mostly, I presume, because there are a myriad rules about undeads and death itself, the creators of D&D believed that it made more sense to just let players (well, DMs) draw their own conclusions. Windstriker is a Celestial steed. That would define as living in the Celestial Realm, and basically being a spirit that mostly resembles a horse and is defined as a horse at plane shift by the physical restraints of Prime Elemental. Also, Miko will probably be going to either the basic LG resting place, or some pandemonium or another. In any case, Windstriker should easily be able to visit her from time to time.


I don't think Soon would be acting childish to a person who was, in fact, not a paladin (it was stripped from her, remember). He doesn't out-right lie, but there isn't any reason to tell Miko, "Look lady - you are a whack job and because of your selfish and idiotic acts, you gonna pay the price."

...He did tell her that. Technically Miko was the epitome of paladinhood and filled her duties to the letter and to the very end. Also, technicalities are what makes Lawful Lawful. Really, there's not a single thing Miko has done that wouldn't make sense **at the time**. It's just that when you string them up together she starts to look like a natural disaster. Still, harboring immaculate beliefs does not Evil make.

[Ladorak]

Actually, by MY moral standards, it is more evil to order someone else to do it, because you make him a (possibly unwilling) accomplice in the act. It's worst especially if the one ordered cannot refuse without risking his life.


So a solider ordered to kill an innocent remains innocent? Where as if the family of that innocent entreat others to kill that solider they are evil?

[Zaldrak]

So a solider ordered to kill an innocent remains innocent? Where as if the family of that innocent entreat others to kill that solider they are evil?

No a soldier ordered to kill an innocent is not innocent. That's why i said when you order someone to kill you make them your accomplices.
However, very few people have such a high moral standard that they would disobey the order, probably losing their life as well as that of the victim that would end up dead anyway, so that soldier is much less guilty than the ones that ordered the killing.
As for the second point, not enough information about context to give a definite answer, but there is a (not small) difference between "ordering" amd "entreating".

[TheNovak]

Even if the first one is, say, a nazi leader?

Sorry, but it must be said.

GODWIN!

[Zaldrak]

Sorry, but it must be said.

GODWIN!

Godwin's law is dumb. If the comparison had been with stalinists/Khmer rouge/pick your own regime that killed many people, would it be different?

[Dausuul]

Godwin's law is dumb. If the comparison had been with stalinists/Khmer rouge/pick your own regime that killed many people, would it be different?

Actually, it would, mostly because Hitler and the Nazis have become (rightly or wrongly) synonyms for Evil in modern society. Godwin's Law doesn't mean that any discussion involving the Nazis is instantly over; it's simply an observation that when the discussion has degenerated to the point where somebody starts throwing around terms as emotionally loaded as "Hitler" and "Nazi," there's no longer anything worthwhile to be said.

(And technically, Godwin's Law only observes that Nazis will eventually crop up in any thread that goes on for long enough. Internet tradition holds that the debate terminates at that point, with the one who invoked Nazis being considered the loser.)


...He did tell her that. Technically Miko was the epitome of paladinhood and filled her duties to the letter and to the very end. Also, technicalities are what makes Lawful Lawful. Really, there's not a single thing Miko has done that wouldn't make sense **at the time**. It's just that when you string them up together she starts to look like a natural disaster. Still, harboring immaculate beliefs does not Evil make.

Um... what? Murdering Shojo? Attacking Hinjo? The gods themselves came down, whacked her upside the head with the beige stick, and said, "Bad paladin!" and she didn't even pause to consider that maybe she'd screwed up. Sorry, but Miko did a lot of stuff that made no sense, even at the time.

If she'd been the epitome of paladinhood, wouldn't she have still been... y'know... a paladin?

[DreadArchon]

Yeah, what Kyrin said. Read up on Arcadia, folks with access to Manual of the Planes
I expect Miko to go to Arcadia, though Mount Celestia is still possible. As for Windstriker, I expect he'll be reassigned, and thus not always around to chat with, hence Soon's comment.


I don't know where anyone's getting this "Lawful Good" crap from. She killed an unarmed man, which was an Evil act that got her paladinhood stripped away.
Disagree. She thought that she was killing him for the greater good, which makes it a Chaotic act, not an Evil act. Obviously it was enough to make her lose her Paladinhood, but I figure that she's still LG, just with LN tendencies (which, yes, does exist in D&D, or what the hell would the difference between "Lawful Good" and "Exalted" be, and why don't Paladins fall immediately if they so much as speak rudely to someone?)


Instead of admitting she made a mistake, she went on a rampage, asked the gods to "enlighten" (or rather, "agree") with her, escaped her prison cell in the hope of immediately seeking revenge, and began interpreting her own decisions and free will as signs and portents that the gods supported her every action.
So she quit the Harmonium and joined the Fated. Big deal. Yes, she was crazy, but in D&D crazy != Evil.


I don't know about you, but were I DMing, she'd have gotten a full alignment shift to Lawful Neutral. And she'd have been borderline for quite some time before that, too.
Agreed.


By the simple fact of his existence, he gets to hang out in Good Guy Heaven, so if he and Miko were in the same plane, they could hang out all the time. Since that evidently isn't the case...
See above.


When she gets to the gates of Lawful Neutral Land, she'll either fully understand the weight of her actions, or she'll flip out and try to escape the afterlife. Either one will be entertaining.
I don't think Petitioners work like that, especially on Mechanus. (Though, again, I predict Arcadia.)

[David Argall]

I don't know where anyone's getting this "Lawful Good" crap from. She killed an unarmed man, which was an Evil act that got her paladinhood stripped away.
The unarmed is irrelevant. She killed someone who didn't need killing. It didn't matter if he was tied up and unable to resist [which he might have been if there had been a trial and he was condemned to death, at which time Miko could have executed him without threat to her paladinhood.] or if he was holding a superweapon that could immediately kill everybody in the room. He was not a man who needed killing.


And Soon was just letting her down gently, but firmly. When she gets to the gates of Lawful Neutral Land, she'll either fully understand the weight of her actions, or she'll flip out and try to escape the afterlife. Either one will be entertaining.
We won't see that, no matter where she is going. This was a Final Scene and she is finished as a serious character. We may get some minor scene long in the future if the rumors about the final encounter are correct, but she would get very little coverage even then.

[Dausuul]

We won't see that, no matter where she is going. This was a Final Scene and she is finished as a serious character. We may get some minor scene long in the future if the rumors about the final encounter are correct, but she would get very little coverage even then.

Yeah, I have to say I agree. After a dramatic death scene like that, any further coverage of Miko would be anticlimactic... at least for a good long while, though she might put in another appearance somewhere way down the line.

Contrast Miko's powerful and moving death scene with Roy's, which consisted of Roy spending the whole strip trying to figure out a way to save himself and ended in an ignominious splat. Roy's was the death scene of a guy who's got more screen time coming up, one way or another; a transition point in an ongoing story. Miko's was a grand finale.

[Tirian]

The unarmed is irrelevant. She killed someone who didn't need killing. It didn't matter if he was tied up and unable to resist [which he might have been if there had been a trial and he was condemned to death, at which time Miko could have executed him without threat to her paladinhood.] or if he was holding a superweapon that could immediately kill everybody in the room. He was not a man who needed killing.

Not necessarily true. He was the leader of a city and the protector of a gate that was mere hours away from invasion from a lich and his army of thousands of hobgoblins, and she had quite a bit of cause to believe that he had been part of a coordinated and long-term effort to delude the Sapphire Guard and was much less than fully dedicated to the Guard's mission of protecting the foundations of the universe, and had both the means and the will to cook trials to achieve his ends. It's hard to fault her for believing this, because it is essentially true. And we're not privy to the Constitution of the Sapphire Guard, so it's hard to know if an unforced confession can replace a trial and immediate execution by the chief paladin is a proper means of impeachment when the potential alternative is an internal insurrection at the same time that an invasion force shows up.

Clearly, her data did not include that Shojo and OOTS were Good despite following agendas mildly antagonistic to the Sappire Guard to achieve the same worthy ends, and trusting her data is the epitome of Lawful Stupid. But if she had been right, she'd have been the only person who could have saved the day. And I think that the most selfish thing she did was wishing to have the gods tangibly demonstrate that they were the source of her worldview and that they approved of her actions. That's not even close to Evil in my book.

[Demented]

Not necessarily true. He was the leader of a city and the protector of a gate that was mere hours away from invasion from a lich and his army of thousands of hobgoblins, and she had quite a bit of cause to believe that he had been part of a coordinated and long-term effort to delude the Sapphire Guard and was much less than fully dedicated to the Guard's mission of protecting the foundations of the universe, and had both the means and the will to cook trials to achieve his ends. It's hard to fault her for believing this, because it is essentially true. And we're not privy to the Constitution of the Sapphire Guard, so it's hard to know if an unforced confession can replace a trial and immediate execution by the chief paladin is a proper means of impeachment when the potential alternative is an internal insurrection at the same time that an invasion force shows up.

Clearly, her data did not include that Shojo and OOTS were Good despite following agendas mildly antagonistic to the Sappire Guard to achieve the same worthy ends, and trusting her data is the epitome of Lawful Stupid. But if she had been right, she'd have been the only person who could have saved the day. And I think that the most selfish thing she did was wishing to have the gods tangibly demonstrate that they were the source of her worldview and that they approved of her actions. That's not even close to Evil in my book.

I colored the sentences accordingly.
Orange: In debate.
Green: True.
Red: False.
Bright red: False, emphasized.
Odd green: True, but opinion only.

In any case, it's obvious that the act was evil.
The only argument to be made is why it was evil.

[Elliot Kane]

The afterlife planes in D&D are not monolithic within alignments; there are special places inside LG planes where only Paladins get to go when they die. So Miko could still get a LG afterlife, while going to a "different place" from Soon et all on account of not being a Paladin anymore.

Thanks, Aquillion, I didn't know that :)

***

It sounds to me most likely that Miko would be headed to Arcadia, as one who was far more dedicated to Law than to Good. From what we've seen of her, she did the right thing because she had been taught since a small child that it was the right thing, and thus her duty to do it, rather than because she had any genuine concern for the welfare of others. Duty alone doth not the perfect paladin make.

[Tirian]

I stand by the entire first paragraph. In 405, Shojo confessed to faking senility for decades, hiring mercenaries to commit acts contrary to the mission of the Sapphire Guard, and fixing trials. In 406, he did not contest these direct charges. Even Hinjo, a much more level-headed Paladin, felt that Shojo was unfit for office, and from what I've seen of Soon I think he might well have been similarly nonplussed. Miko's delusion added the concern that the depths of Shojo's mechanations had not been revealed and that the security of the city and the gate were imperiled by any actions he might take during the seige, in addition to the direct charge that it is hard to acheive justice against someone who has influenced the system of justice for forty-odd years.

Wrong? Certainly. But I don't think that it was altogether unjustified. And I definitely don't think that it was motivated by the sort of self-interest that defines AD&D Evil, and furthermore I think that it demonstrates the sort of self-sacrifice for one's principles that defines AD&D Goodness.

[Fanatic-Templar]

I hold that even if her delusions had been right, Miko would have fallen because she has no authority to sentence Shojo, nor carry out that sentence. Nor was the murder necessary, merely his removal from office. I mean seriously, Hinjo is Shojo's heir, and he was right there. There is no reason why a decent paladin would act this way.

Of course, since Shojo was, much like Miko, serving the greater good in the manner that he saw fit, she also fell because she killed a man who was, in the end, serving the interests of Azure City and the Sapphire Guard. This was an evil act, even if there is perfectly credible reasons to believe that Shojo was evil and plotting the demise of the Sapphire Guard. Good and evil exist independantly of beliefs, but while that would make her fall, it would not change her alignment. Alignment is determined by consistent behaviour. And she is not consistently evil.

Consistently obnoxious? Certainly. But good is not required to be polite. At best, knights are supposed to be courteous.

As for the destruction of Soon's Gate, the argument is downright laughable. Up until the very strip where Miko destroyed the Gate, there were people who thought Xykon would beat Soon. Certainly, Redcloak seemed to have an idea that would lead to this end. So Miko is guilty of... not metagaming? Not being omniscient? Not reading the comic?

She's far less guilty than Elan, and I doubt he's destined for the Abyss.

[Roderick_BR]

Since he is (was) a Paladin, I somehow doubt he would resort to such childish practices. Especially to a fellow Paladin who is about to die.
Add the fact that they may encounter sooner or later in the afterlife.
And what would be the lie? That she didn't recover her paladin status? Maybe about her horse. Well, seeing as dead and afterlife (and planar travel) works in D&D, she's likely to see him sometimes.

[berrew]

<snip>
Wrong? Certainly. But I don't think that it was altogether unjustified. And I definitely don't think that it was motivated by the sort of self-interest that defines AD&D Evil, and furthermore I think that it demonstrates the sort of self-sacrifice for one's principles that defines AD&D Goodness.She was stripped of her paladinhood. This doesn't happen because someone makes a mistake. It happens if a player performs an evil act. Paladins can fall for unintentionally evil acts as well, but not due to bad judgment calls based on limited information.

[Cybaster]

See, here's where I'm reminded of Constantine. Yes, the Keanu Reeves movie. Is one single act (causing the death of a girl) really enough to condemn him to Hell even though he had saved thousands of lives to redeem himself? The Angel Gabriel seems to think so (and s/he seems to think so for all Humans, too), although near the end, it turns out that a single act of sacrifice was all Constantine needed to be forgiven by God and taken to Heaven (and give Lucifer the finger while he's halfway there :P).

But that's beside the point. What I do think when reminded of this is that although Miko had killed Shojo, is that the only thing she is memorable for? I doubt it. She's a professional Paladin and even Hinjo's senior, so she's bound to have a storage of good deeds still there (otherwise she wouldn't have gotten as far as she did before being assigned to the Stick). In that sense, it's unlikely that her being Fallen and killing Shojo is enough to condemn Miko outright to Sabine's superiors in Hell, nor does it for certain outweigh whatever she's done for people in the past.

This could really go both ways. Unfortunately for Miko, Soon himself was probably notorious for being a vengeful bastard when he was still alive --- remember, his own party was b****ing at him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) for putting revenge ahead of everything else, even sacrificing a companion to achieve it; all he said up until her death could be simply a matter of getting even with Miko for making him lose his Lich kill, and let Roy do the work of taunting her past the line of insanity in the Afterlife. The fortunate thing is that this isn't certain, and it's equally likely that Soon is saying those comforting words because he understands what Miko is going through, as he himself went through that similar phase of doubting his code in the face of crisis or grief...

As for Windstriker, it could be as simple as not being able to see Miko nearly as often on the Celestial Plane Afterlife Express, as with Miko fallen (and then dead), he would likely be reassigned to another non-Fallen Paladin who needs him more. Remember, Hinjo's mounts seem to be on rotation with the Gods, so I could see the Paladin mounts working on shifts.

[Dausuul]

Wrong? Certainly. But I don't think that it was altogether unjustified. And I definitely don't think that it was motivated by the sort of self-interest that defines AD&D Evil, and furthermore I think that it demonstrates the sort of self-sacrifice for one's principles that defines AD&D Goodness.

If I kill somebody because I'm mad at them, that's evil, even though it may not be in my rational self-interest; I'm acting to satisfy my own anger, at their expense. That's what Miko did to Shojo. She was mad because he'd duped her, so instead of helping Hinjo put him under arrest and hold him prisoner, she cut him in two. That's an evil act. That's why she fell.

Even if Miko's paranoid delusions about Azure City's government had been justified, that's still no excuse for what she did. She could have leaped to seize Shojo and held him prisoner with her sword to his throat. She could have worked with Hinjo to ensure the trial was fairly administered, maybe summoning a real celestial to render the verdict this time.

Instead, she murdered a defenseless old man.

And as for self-sacrifice--no. Just no. When you kill somebody else, you don't get to call that self-sacrifice and claim it as a good deed.

[Alias]

You guys seem to be forgetting that there are 7 layers of Heaven. Miko may go to heaven - just not to as high a level as the other paladins or Windstriker.

[The Wanderer]

Just a fun thought... I wonder if in OOTS land there's a separate afterlife for the insane, (just look at Miko's symptoms: hears voices in her head, sudden mood swings [see how she goes from smiling in one panel to attacking Hinjo in another] paranoia, megalomania, delusions, etc), and since someone who is truly out of their mind can't be judged on the good/evil sphere, they can't be thrown into that, and so Miko is going to the land of the insane.

Hey, it gives him a perfect reason to sugarcoat things, as he's just talking gently to a crazy person rather than lying to an adult, it explains how they will be ushering her to her destination, (as in walking her to the institution's door and saying "Ok guys, this is the one I told you about... be easy on her, all right"), and why Windstriker will be visiting her "When he is able" (just as the friends and family of someone at a prison or institution visit them when they are able to). Just a little food for thought. :smallwink:

[Solara]

Just a fun thought... I wonder if in OOTS land there's a separate afterlife for the insane, (just look at Miko's symptoms: hears voices in her head, sudden mood swings [see how she goes from smiling in one panel to attacking Hinjo in another] paranoia, megalomania, delusions, etc), and since someone who is truly out of their mind can't be judged on the good/evil sphere, they can't be thrown into that, and so Miko is going to the land of the insane.

Hey, it gives him a perfect reason to sugarcoat things, as he's just talking gently to a crazy person rather than lying to an adult, it explains how they will be ushering her to her destination, (as in walking her to the institution's door and saying "Ok guys, this is the one I told you about... be easy on her, all right"), and why Windstriker will be visiting her "When he is able" (just as the friends and family of someone at a prison or institution visit them when they are able to). Just a little food for thought. :smallwink:


Hehe, for some reason the idea of Miko wearing a blue jumpsuit and weaving baskets and sitting in a support group being asked to talk about her feelings appeals to me. :D

Seriously though, I was just thinking that wherever Miko winds up, I hope it's some place nice and peaceful where she gets plenty of time to pray and contemplate the intricacies of a butterfly's wings and whatnot. It might be similar to her life back when she was a monk, and boring or not some downtime to force her to do some soul-searching might be all she needs to figure out where she went wrong, now that Soon seems to have helped her take the first tiny step in the direction of accepting the possibility that she could be wrong.

Also, everyone's bringing up Arcadia and various DnD afterlifes, but since Miko worships the Twelve Gods who as far as I know are home-brewed, it's likely the Giant has his own version of a LN-with-good-tendencies afterlife as well.

And I know her alignment is still up for debate...one evil act doesn't necessarily an alignment change make, but murdering a defenseless old man who was fixing to be arrested anyway is about as serious as it gets and was probably enough to at least put her right on the edge (I'm allowing a little leniency here for the fact that it wasn't cold-blooded murder, more of a heat of the moment thing.) So, maybe she was still LG after that, but IMO proceeding to attack Hinjo and apparently enjoy it would have sent her well into LN territory. As for destroying the gate...well, as world-threatening as that was I don't know if it effected her alignment because stupid does not equal evil. (Though arrogance does and that may be her real sin in that case. ..)

[lord_khaine]

actualy arrogance is just a personality trait, it has nothing to do with either the Good/evil or the Law/chaos axis.

[Fanatic-Templar]

About the planar homes, they could be homebrewed, but there is some reason to think they might be standard D&D fare - The Crayons of Time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html) say that the gods hid in the Outer Planes.

[Charity322]

Even if Miko didn't notice it I think if Soon had been lying then there would have been a facial expression more like this http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0203.html where Haley and V are lying and clearly look nervous even though again Miko may not notice that.

Instead his face is serene and peaceful but it's the first time he's smiled.

[MReav]

Instead his face is serene and peaceful but it's the first time he's smiled.

Actually, he smiled when he saw the reaction on Xykon's face when he told him about the phylactery.

[evileeyore]

Even if Miko didn't notice it I think if Soon had been lying then there would have been a facial expression more like this http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0203.html where Haley and V are lying and clearly look nervous even thoguh again Miko may not notice that.

Instead his face is serene and peaceful but it's the first time he's smiled.True, you may have a point there.

I'd like to think this scene called for more drama and less fish slapping comedy though, but then the Giant does tend to keep things like facial setups consistent.

[Jawajoey]

Why would Soon lie about her seeing Windstriker again, and not about her regaining her paladinhood?

Oh, I know! Because she's not dying like we would, she's dying and going to an afterlife where she'll know where she is, what she is, and what dead/celestial beings of other alignments can do about it.

Basically, there's no reason for Soon to lie, because either way, Miko will find out the truth momentarily.

[brian c]

Soon is one of the paladiniest paladins that ever paladined; he wouldn't lie without an extremely good cause too. He might be a bit tactful with the truth to soften the blow, as tamashii suggested, but I see no reason why he would outright lie just to make Miko feel good, especially as - as others have said - she's going to know exactly what her fate is soon enough.

shouldn't that be "paladinned" ? "Paladined" would be pronounced pala-dined (like you dined out at the restaurant).



Silliness aside, I really don't think Soon would lie... sugarcoat maybe, but not lie. Miko may not be LG, but she isn't going to "hell" at any rate.

[DreadArchon]

Just a fun thought... I wonder if in OOTS land there's a separate afterlife for the insane...
Standard cosmology, this would be Pandemonium. (I thought of that too. :smalltongue: )

[evileeyore]

Basically, there's no reason for Soon to lie, because either way, Miko will find out the truth momentarily.Unless she returns to life and in doing so forgets what the afterlife was like.

Which is canonical in most settings.

in this case her last memories woudl be of dying and Soon's words to her. Which basically opent he way for her redemption if A) she manages to not stay dead and B) takes it as a wake up call from the Gods.

[WhiteNoise]

I suspect Miko is actually inline for a LN afterlife and therefore there is probably a rule for visiations by other lawful creatures provided they do the paper work,

I seem to recall Shojo and Roy on seperate occasions berrating Miko for her rigid adherence to the rules where any good act she did was essentially because its in the rules you do it or as a side effect of following the rules which implies that essentially the GM was giving alignment warnings for slipping to LN and the evil act was the final straw resulting in both falling and an alignment shift to LN. as evem afterwards miko still wasnt showing any compassion regret etc but a rigid persuit of internal logic and obsession with the technicalities of the duties and oaths