A question about cleric domains and balance issues

[ngilop]

Hey everybody I have a project im working on. Said project being making domans more meaningful after level 1.

and by meaningful I mean useful and fun.

I want to expand upon domains and instead of just getting an ability/bonus at 1st level and that's it I want there to be abilities/bonuses attained at other levels

sort of like pathfinder but im thinking 1st, 7th, and 15th level.


I like a sort of game, to put it in terms so most GiTPers understand, that is 'tier'4 or 'tier'3 and what tables I do play at are much the same, as so to whom shares my table.

Im worried that doing so would create even more power in a cleric, power that does not need to be there.

My aim is not to up the power of a standard cleric but instead to make your domain choices a bit more consequential, interesting and makes one say 'hmm should I take that 10 level PrC or should I nab 15th level as a cleric and grab that cool domain power

for healing what I have so far is

1st Potent healing Healing spells heal for an addition 20%, this effect stacks with empower and maximize.
7th Healing Aura Spend a turn attempt to give all allies within 30 feet fast healing equal to 1+ wisdom modifier for a number of rounds equal to your cleric level.
15th Touch of life. You can touch a target that has died within 1 round per wisdom modifier. The target is cure of all negative afflictions currenly affecting it and is brought to 1 HP. This ability can only be used once per day

[nedz]

Problem: Assuming you have to stay with the Cleric class to get them
Unless they are more powerful than PrCs the players will PrC out anyway.
If they are more powerful than PrCs you have a problem.

One solution might be to offer feats which improve the domains, IIRC there are a few of these anyway.
That way the PC has to pay a price, but then the powers still have to be viable as a feat.

One alternate scheme is to have the Cleric class add more domain, at levels 7 and 14 say, this might then work along side your idea — but we are still adding power to a high tier class.

[eggynack]

Well, clearly improving domains is incompatible with a tier 3/4 game. Even keeping them the same is incompatible, if we're being realistic. So, what you may wanna do is get rid of everything but domains. Clerics choose their spell list solely off of a pair of domains, and then you can maybe add more domains and some additional powers to domains for progression in cleric. A just domains cleric should hit your desired balance point, and even without anything beyond that puts a ton of focus on domain choice. And then you can use the cool extra powers to improve the class while keeping them within the tier 3 range. You could go pretty deep from there without substantially hurting balance, though giving too many domains would likely be an error. Notably, there would be a tension between prestige classes as a source of bonus domains and cleric levels as a source of domain advancement, and that'd provide some nifty build flexibility.

[ngilop]

Well, clearly improving domains is incompatible with a tier 3/4 game. Even keeping them the same is incompatible, if we're being realistic. So, what you may wanna do is get rid of everything but domains. Clerics choose their spell list solely off of a pair of domains, and then you can maybe add more domains and some additional powers to domains for progression in cleric. A just domains cleric should hit your desired balance point, and even without anything beyond that puts a ton of focus on domain choice. And then you can use the cool extra powers to improve the class while keeping them within the tier 3 range. You could go pretty deep from there without substantially hurting balance, though giving too many domains would likely be an error. Notably, there would be a tension between prestige classes as a source of bonus domains and cleric levels as a source of domain advancement, and that'd provide some nifty build flexibility.

except its completely not. all one has to do to not go above 'tier' 3 is be a jerk at the table and break the campaign/group centricity that is D&D.


when I say 'tier' 3 I do not not mean only those classes jaronK claims are 'tier' 3 I mean playing a character that is excellent at what he is about but still relevant outside of that. or decent at everything with maybe a special quirk.

You can be a 'tier'1 class and still be 'tier' 3 by just not being a jerk and breaking the campaign or making the other players at the table feel worthless by being the jerk who solves every encounter/problem/issue with a standard action.

[eggynack]

except its completely not. all one has to do to not go above 'tier' 3 is be a jerk at the table and break the campaign/group centricity that is D&D.


when I say 'tier' 3 I do not not mean only those classes jaronK claims are 'tier' 3 I mean playing a character that is excellent at what he is about but still relevant outside of that. or decent at everything with maybe a special quirk.

You can be a 'tier'1 class and still be 'tier' 3 by just not being a jerk and breaking the campaign or making the other players at the table feel worthless by being the jerk who solves every encounter/problem/issue with a standard action.
Okay, then do whatever you want. Who cares how powerful the abilities you grant are? Your players can just not use them if they're too strong.

[nedz]

except its completely not. all one has to do to not go above 'tier' 3 is be a jerk at the table and break the campaign/group centricity that is D&D.

when I say 'tier' 3 I do not not mean only those classes jaronK claims are 'tier' 3 I mean playing a character that is excellent at what he is about but still relevant outside of that. or decent at everything with maybe a special quirk.

You can be a 'tier'1 class and still be 'tier' 3 by just not being a jerk and breaking the campaign or making the other players at the table feel worthless by being the jerk who solves every encounter/problem/issue with a standard action.

This works well for some groups, but not for all. It only takes one guy - usually.

But you did ask about balance issues.

[Pluto!]

Shouldn't be hard - take the PF Cleric in one hand, take the Spontaneous Divine Caster variant in the other, and clap vigorously. It would be quick, easy and less powerful than the default Cleric, just with a lot more fun little details to play with in Character building.

As a prepackaged option, there used to be a 3rd party class called Priest of the Celestial Spheres from the Classes of Legend series Listed in the Grand OGL Wiki. Unfortunately that site seems not to exist anymore. Anyway, it was essentially a Cleric whose domain spell lists were a whole lot bigger, but who lacked a base central spell list had a much shorter central spell list, making Clerics of different dieties and domain choices more meaningfully different. I'm sure it still exists somewhere on the internet if you want to mess with it. Edit: Same writer as Cityscape and Shadow Magic, however you want to take that.

And for a third option, you might also take a look at the Divine Mind. Bear with me. It has scaling abilities based around its domains natively built in. Just cut its embarassingly bad spell progression, triple its Aura radius, glue in the Bard's Spell Per Day table and refer to the Cleric Spell list for details. You might need to swap the chassis around for 6+Int skill points and d8 HP for a more scholarly Cleric type, but it should stay solidly within the power boundaries set by Bard, Crusader, Duskblade and Dread Necromancer.