No Magic Items* - Doing it tastefully.

[Baptor]

Hey playground,

After having polled my players and giving it serious thought, we are looking into the option of no items. For those of you that know me, I've been wrestling with the question of how to handle magic items properly in 5e (hint: if you care at all about balance, the DMG is not where you want to look). Since the game is balanced for no items and I've heard from many DM's they are having a lot of success with no items I'd like to pick said DM's minds for how to do this in a way that's fun and not just yanking items away.

All of us, DM and players, like the idea of magic items, and frankly the ones that don't give a combat benefit, like an immovable rod can stay without issue. Our problem are the combat items, especially weapons, which imbalance the game.

So, if you play in a game with practically no magic items or straight up no magic items, what is it like? Do you miss the loot, or was it something you realized you never needed to begin with?

Just looking for tips and testimonials.

[Blood of Gaea]

Hey playground,
So, if you play in a game with practically no magic items or straight up no magic items, what is it like? Do you miss the loot, or was it something you realized you never needed to begin with?

The best thing to do if you have magic weapons, is to tailor the items to the current set of players, and campaign setting. If you find that you are not having challenging fights, but a lot of role playing, avoid weapons and armour, and give them utility items.

Also, weapons and armour do not have to give +1-3 or some form of bonus damage, or resistance/immunity. Instead you can just make them from the minor/major positive and negative properties, in the Treasure section of the DMG.

[MaxWilson]

All of us, DM and players, like the idea of magic items, and frankly the ones that don't give a combat benefit, like an immovable rod can stay without issue. Our problem are the combat items, especially weapons, which imbalance the game.

So, if you play in a game with practically no magic items or straight up no magic items, what is it like? Do you miss the loot, or was it something you realized you never needed to begin with?

Just looking for tips and testimonials.

Not much to say except that I like it. Among other things, it means there is an actual point to the Bladelock's built-in "magic weapon" and the monk's/Moon Druid's built-in magical attacks.

I have played in games with tons of magic items (+5 Swords of Sharpness, in 5E no less, by 9th level) and I have played test games where the PCs have zero magic items. In the games that I actually run for my players I have given out some magic items, but not very many and only two magical weapons (a Sword of Lifestealing, which has seen some play since I let the player attach a haft to it to make a Glaive of Lifestealing; and a Githyanki shortsword which adds 1d6 psychic damage per hit, which has seen zero play), neither of which has an actual plus.

Personally I prefer the no-magic games. I like "man against nature," not "Christmas tree of items against nature." I like the idea that you could strip me of all my equipment and burn down my house and I'll still be basically who I am, because everything important is in my head.

P.S. I do think the Decanter of Endless Water is cool though. So is the Deck of Many Things, and so is a Bag of Devouring. If I were playing in a game and the DM handed those out, I wouldn't be annoyed the way I am when the DM hands out things like a Ring of Air Elemental Command, which is way too good/transformative and leads to magic item addiction.

[CNagy]

I run almost exclusively games in very low-magic settings, so perhaps my perspective will be helpful.

Weapons are the biggest problem, by far. So the first thing to do was to remove bonuses to hit from all magical weapons. Because 5e creatures tend to have a lower AC but higher HP, you can shift the focus on magical weapons from an increased chance to hit to increased damage dealt without, in my experience, throwing off the balance.

The lowest power magical weapons are just weapons that were made with magic as part of the creation. They give no combat bonuses aside from bypassing resistance/immunity to non-magical weapons. I give lower power weapons static bonuses to damage in the range of +1 to +2, i.e. a lightly enchanted dagger dealing 1d4+1 damage, but with no bonus to the attack roll. More moderately powered weapons have an additional damage die up to their original damage die. So if you wanted to give someone a moderately enchanted longsword, it might deal 1d8 +1d6 (the additional damage being either elemental or physical) but the maximum would be a 2d8 longsword. Really powerful weapons could have some added combat effect like the kinds of weapons in the DMG, but I've treated that as the rarest of the rare.

Keeping the magical weapon numbers low encourages players to adopt any weapons they end up using as part of their character's image. To that end, weapons should have detailed descriptions, associated myths, and a history including previous owners and battles the weapon was used in. Having a rich story for the weapons, even if it took some research to uncover, seems to fill a large part of the hole left by reducing magical loot.

Armor and Shields are the next biggest offenders, but the cure is much the same. Remove the bonuses to AC, and make magical armor and shields have some sort of effect; from low-powered but continual effects to slightly more powerful but once/twice/thrice per short/long rest abilities.

[rollingForInit]

Not much to say except that I like it. Among other things, it means there is an actual point to the Bladelock's built-in "magic weapon" and the monk's/Moon Druid's built-in magical attacks.

I'm curious how this feels at higher levels? It seems as if it'd be seriously boring to play a Paladin, Barbarian, Fighter or Ranger at higher levels, where most enemies are resistant to non-magical weapons, and some really nasty enemies are even outright immune to it. Whereas virtually no enemies are immune or resistant to all types of magical attacks. If you can't ever bypass those resistances ... how do you solve that?



Keeping the magical weapon numbers low encourages players to adopt any weapons they end up using as part of their character's image. To that end, weapons should have detailed descriptions, associated myths, and a history including previous owners and battles the weapon was used in. Having a rich story for the weapons, even if it took some research to uncover, seems to fill a large part of the hole left by reducing magical loot.

I did this in a high magic (short) campaign I DM'd. I gave every powerful magical item the players got a history and background, gave them unique perks and appearances, really personalised them. It made the players super excited, much more than when we've found randomised magical loot. So I think you've a point; if the playears are at all interested in the RP aspect of the game, they'd probably low having the odd low-end item, if it's got a great story to it.

[Kane0]

No, we dont miss it.

We've played high magic and low magic games. Each has their own feel, but thanks to 5e you dont feel lacking by missing out on magic items.

Good ideas for low magic that my group has stumbled into:
- all magic items are temporary or consumable
- magic items require quite a bit of investment to gain, usually a combination of time, money and risk.
- nonmagical alternatives exist for some magic weapons, such as alchemy replacing a lot of potions
- all magic items give very small or specific bonuses, such as advantage on saves vs disease or treating str as never lower than 10. Their benefits are usually worth keeping, but never enough to rely on or miss if lost.

[MaxWilson]

I'm curious how this feels at higher levels? It seems as if it'd be seriously boring to play a Paladin, Barbarian, Fighter or Ranger at higher levels, where most enemies are resistant to non-magical weapons, and some really nasty enemies are even outright immune to it. Whereas virtually no enemies are immune or resistant to all types of magical attacks. If you can't ever bypass those resistances ... how do you solve that?

I haven't played any characters past 14th level or so, but I have run fights that were officially 20th level difficulty. (I believe the first big battle of my campaign, with three 3rd level PCs, would have been officially Deadly for three 20th level PCs, and there have been four to six other fights of that scope so far, though the PCs are mostly now between 8th and 14th level I think.)

This is 5E, and Bounded Accuracy was designed partly so that monsters never go obsolete. By 5E guidelines, four umber hulks and two Death Slaads is officially a "Hard" encounter with 38,000 XP, and none of those guys have weapon resistance. Mind flayers, orc hordes, giants, dragons, genies, efreeti... none of them have any weapon resistance. Enemies that do have weapon resistance usually have just that, mere resistance, not immunity. I'm paranoid enough that I wouldn't ever get stuck with no magic weapon on a weapons guy (see above comments on the value of a bladelock's weapon, or a Paladin's Sacred Weapon, or an Eldritch Knight's Magic Weapon) and I favor Eldritch Blast likewise because almost nothing resists it (Helmed Horrors, Rakshasa, and Tiamat).

But let's say I were playing a character that someone else designed, say a Battlemaster 11/Thief 5 and we were up against two Chain Devils and an Erinyes (Deadly for 4 16th level PCs). Am I useless without a magical weapon? Not really.

1.) Obviously, I could have bought myself a silver weapon, and then I can just kill the Erinyes normally with my silver backup weapon, once I realize that these things are resisting normal weapons. It costs me some time in the first fight today but now I know there are demons in this place and next time I'll be ready.

2.) Obviously I can just beat it to death with a normal weapon. This isn't 2nd edition, where monsters were outright immune to your attacks if you didn't have a sufficiently-magical weapon or a high-HD beast. When an enemy is resistant to your attacks, it's generally useful to spend a little bit of extra time making conditions perfect (e.g. grappling + pushing prone) because those actions "cost" less damage, since your damage-per-attack is lower. So, maybe I grab the Erinyes and flip her face down on the ground with one hand, and then start beating her with the longsword in my free hand.

3.) As the above alludes, I can try to keep one of the three monsters occupied so my companions can focus on killing the other two. It would make a lot of sense for me to just grab the Erinyes in a grapple, then hang on and Dodge until the Chain Devils are down and the ranged warlocks/Sharpshooters/etc. can start shooting at her. I'd have to run the numbers to see if that's more likely to pay off than flipping her prone and beating her myself, but both are viable tactics.

4.) Erinyes also relies on weapons, so I can Disarm her and discard her weaponry (or keep it for later). I ought to be really, really good at disarming her, with three attempts per round at +10 vs. her resistance at only +7. 94.5% chance of one of the three attacks succeeding. Since it's attack roll vs. ability check, disarming her when she is prone is even easier than when she is upright, for a 99% chance of successful Disarm.

5.) And of course I can still try RP shenanigans with Intimidate skill, bluffing, surrender demands, etc.

So yes, there are some fights where, as a consequence of my choosing to play a purely nonmagical fighter/thief. But even in the 25(?)% of fights where that happens, I still have ways to usefully contribute.

[Gignere]

I am giving out magic items like candy, pretty much everyone has two or three items, they are level 6. I have 0 balance issues I run monsters straight out of the MM, no modifications. I do play my monsters very tactically though, basically I play them like the PCs. Focus fire, assisting, grappling, shoving, etc.. I also tend to have my monsters take advantage of the environments. My players love the challenge and they love the loot. I even passed out a holy avenger to the paladin already, modified to grow in power as the paladin grows. Still 0 balance issue.

[WickerNipple]

I am giving out magic items like candy, pretty much everyone has two or three items, they are level 6. I have 0 balance issues I run monsters straight out of the MM, no modifications. I do play my monsters very tactically though, basically I play them like the PCs. Focus fire, assisting, grappling, shoving, etc.. I also tend to have my monsters take advantage of the environments. My players love the challenge and they love the loot. I even passed out a holy avenger to the paladin already, modified to grow in power as the paladin grows. Still 0 balance issue.

A friend of mine is in a group like this and loving it, too.

I prefer to run low-magic games myself, but really, it makes little difference in this edition.

Whether a game is fun and 'tasteful' has little to do with loot choice. You can do it either way.

[Todasmile]

All of us, DM and players, like the idea of magic items, and frankly the ones that don't give a combat benefit, like an immovable rod can stay without issue. Our problem are the combat items, especially weapons, which imbalance the game.

If the reason for no-magic is that you feel the combat items imbalance the game, why not just only hand out non-combat items, and decently sparingly? I've always loved the concept of runs where that Immovable Rod is legitimately a powerful artifact, one which maybe even the big bad is interested in getting his hands on. Something worth making getting it the goal of a whole little adventure.

[Laserlight]

In the buccaneer campaign I'm running (working title: Tomb Raiders of the Lost Atlantis), the PCs have sailed from the Old World and are only now realizing that, in the New World, there is such a thing as magic. We've had about 10 sessions and no magic items as yet, although two of our characters have partipated in a voodoo ceremony. During the course of the rite, the rogue had a conversation with Baron Samedi, and will soon find a +1 rapier as his boon; our barbarian has a pact with the loa Shango, and his boon is that he can use STR instead of WIS to save against Charm effects. Of course, these boons come with a cost....
:smallbiggrin:

And sooner or later they'll find pollen which can be applied to weapons to make them count as "magic" for purposes of ignoring Resists Normal Weapons.

[Baptor]

I am giving out magic items like candy, pretty much everyone has two or three items, they are level 6. I have 0 balance issues I run monsters straight out of the MM, no modifications. I do play my monsters very tactically though, basically I play them like the PCs. Focus fire, assisting, grappling, shoving, etc.. I also tend to have my monsters take advantage of the environments. My players love the challenge and they love the loot. I even passed out a holy avenger to the paladin already, modified to grow in power as the paladin grows. Still 0 balance issue.

Do you give out +1 to hit and +1 to AC items or better? Everyone seems to insist these items will break Bounded Accuracy and make the game unplayable (because PC's never miss and can never be hit). Do you find that to be true since you are using MM monsters?

[JackPhoenix]

For monsters immune or resistant to non-magic weapons, there are some solutions, ranging from boring +0 weapons (no other bonuses, but they are magical, won't rust, won't break, don't need sharpening...), special materials hurting supernatural monsters (silver is popular, for example, Witcher), weapons blessed by a priest before battle to hurt invulnerable monsters (possibly needing a proper temple or at least a field altar, if you don't want the party cleric or paladin doing it all the time) or consumable alchemical oils applied to weapons

[Knaight]

I probably would miss the magic items, but that's mostly because D&D is a niche game that only gets broken out when people are in the mood for something very specific - tons of other games have either absolutely no or essentially no focus on loot. If 5e is your main game, I doubt they'll be missed, particularly if things other than magic weapons and armor stay in.

[AeonsShadow]

*SNIP*
Just looking for tips and testimonials.

Well one idea world building wise is to say that the inherent nature of weapons and armor, being that of VIOLENCE warps magic on them. This could cause anything from just auto spell failures to massive monstrosities depending on the spell and power.

[Gignere]

Do you give out +1 to hit and +1 to AC items or better? Everyone seems to insist these items will break Bounded Accuracy and make the game unplayable (because PC's never miss and can never be hit). Do you find that to be true since you are using MM monsters?

Every PC has at least +1 attack and/or +1 AC, one of them had way more since he got a gauntlets of ogre power. Like I said the paladin also has a holy avenger still 0 balance issues. I don't get all these posts about magic items unbalancing the game at all. My players also are no slouch at min maxing either, i just don't find any balance issues. I have a sharpshooter who can potentially dish out 50 damage a round and still zero balance issue, he is a rogue.

[gullveig]

My players care more about becoming a feudal lord full of gold and vassals than be a Christmas tree full of magic items.
They know where true power is, so.... No problems being without magic items.

[Gignere]

My players care more about becoming a feudal lord full of gold and vassals than be a Christmas tree full of magic items.
They know where true power is, so.... No problems being without magic items.

I give out both items and gold nothing better than a feudal lord armed with legendaries. It isn't an either or proposition.