Bard Support Build Help

[Alistaroc]

Bardic Music: At 1st level, the heartfire fanner gains the bardic music ability as a 5th-level bard if he did not already have it from a previous class. All the bardic music effects (countersong, fascinate, inspire competence, inspire courage, inspire greatness, inspire heroics, song of freedom, suggestion and mass suggestion) become available to him immediately, subject to their usual Performance skill and level requirements (see Bard). A heartfire fanner's class levels stack with any bard levels for all bardic music calculations, including the number of uses of bardic music available per day. The heartfire fanner with bard levels does not gain the normal bardic music abilities as he advances in heartfire fanner levels.
This line really threw me for a loop.

X 7/Heartfire Fanner 5 seems to me like it'd have Inspire Courage +2 and Inspire Greatness just like a 10th level bard, but I can't even tell anymore.

So how does a Heartfire Fanner 5 end up with Inspire Greatness as easily as possible? Because taking any Bard before negates the free 5 levels, but it's also not clear on how Heartfire Fanner would advance on that bardic music... :smallannoyed:

Alright, moving past that, I threw together a build to make use of Dragonfire Inspiration and Cleric+War Weaver to make an interesting PC.
I'm looking for general critique, advice, and suggestions, anything is appreciated. :smallsmile:

Silverblood Human Cleric 7/Heartfire Fanner 5/Seeker of the Song 2/War Weaver 5/Mystic Theurge 1

Casting: Cleric 10 + Bard 13

Initiate of Milil makes effective Bard 10 stack with Cleric 7 for Bardic Music 17, +5 from Vest of Legends = 22nd level Bardic Music

Words of Creation doubles +4 Inspire Courage to +8
Song of the Heart boosts Inspire Courage to +9
Badge of Valor 3/day boosts Inspire Courage to +10
Use-Activated Item of Inspirational Boost for 6k makes Inspire Courage +11

01 - +00/+02/+00/+02 - Cleric 1 : Skill Focus: Perform(String Instruments), Dynamic Priest, Negotiator
02 - +01/+03/+00/+03 - Cleric 2 :
03 - +02/+03/+01/+03 - Cleric 3 : Enlarge Spell
04 - +03/+04/+01/+04 - Cleric 4 :
05 - +04/+04/+01/+04 - Cleric 5 :
06 - +04/+05/+02/+05 - Cleric 6 : Words of Creation
07 - +05/+05/+02/+05 - Cleric 7 :
08 - +05/+05/+04/+07 - Heartfire Fanner 1 : Exchange Inspire Competence for Song of the Heart
09 - +06/+05/+05/+08 - Heartfire Fanner 2 : Dragonfire Inspiration
10 - +07/+06/+05/+08 - Heartfire Fanner 3 :
11 - +08/+06/+06/+09 - Heartfire Fanner 4 :
12 - +08/+06/+06/+09 - Heartfire Fanner 5 : Alternative Source Spell
13 - +08/+06/+06/+11 - Seeker of the Song 1 :
14 - +09/+06/+06/+12 - Seeker of the Song 2 :
15 - +09/+06/+06/+14 - War Weaver 1 : Feat
16 - +10/+06/+06/+15 - War Weaver 2 :
17 - +10/+07/+07/+15 - War Weaver 3 :
18 - +11/+07/+07/+16 - War Weaver 4 : Feat
19 - +11/+07/+07/+16 - War Weaver 5 :
20 - +11/+07/+07/+18 - Mystic Theurge 1 :
Using the Bardic Ensemble on pages 90-91 of Dragon 314, and Combine Song from Seeker of the Song, this bard can play one round of Inspire Courage(DFI) and Inspire Greatness to grant each ally +11d6 cold damage per hit, 6d10 temporary hitpoints, and 5 phantom feats(necklace of Muses), for 5 rounds of the instrument dancing, at least 5 from Charisma, and a further 5. So somewhere in the vicinity of 15 rounds of badassdom for 15d4 nonlethal damage. With an average 75 HP before any Con bonuses, the average 38 nonlethal damage will hurt, but there are ways to become immune to this. Necropolitan comes to mind, but any other ideas are welcome.

In short, the crazy Bardic Music abilities combined with spontaneous buffs from War Weaver make this guy a pretty cool support PC imho.
1.) I have room for 2 more feats at 15 and 18, and another Flaw slot at Level 1... the only issue is the build calls for a lot of feats after Heartfire Fanner is taken, and few before.
2.) Any suggestions on good Phantom Feats to grant are sorely needed atm.
3.) What's a good source of immunity to nonlethal damage? I'd rather not be undead, but if need be that's acceptable.
4.) Any useful templates up to +2 LA, or potentially +3 depending.
5.) I don't see any way to do it, but this IS the Playground, so does anyone see a way to fit Seeker of the Song 4(nigh-unlimited OOC healing) into the build with Heartfire Fanner 5 and War Weaver 5?
EDIT: It seems Wizard 5/War Weaver 2 allows access into Heartfire Fanner at level 7, allowing the build to be Wizard(or other fast casting class) 5/War Weaver 2/Heartfire Fanner 5/Seeker of the Song 4/War Weaver +3/X 1. Thoughts on potentially a Sha'ir based build? It'd get casting from Sha'ir 15 and Bard 5 to Sha'ir 6 and Bard 14, and have all the goodies of said casting, plus some crazy Bardic Music and seeker song healing.
6.) Any other critique, advice, anything at all.

Thanks for any and all input :smallbiggrin:
Some sort of arcane class, probably the Sha'ir, going into Heartfire Fanner 5, War Weaver 5, and Seaker of the Song 4, but still manages to pick up Inspire Greatness in order to fuel the Necklace of Muses, part of the Bardic Ensemble from Dragon 314. A difficult task, but hey, this IS the Playground.:smallbiggrin:

[Blackhawk748]

As for the Inspire Greatness Early, you still need to have the Prerequisite Perform ranks, so i dont think you would actually get that earlier. The free 5 levels of Bardic Music does seem odd though.

[Alistaroc]

As for the Inspire Greatness Early, you still need to have the Prerequisite Perform ranks, so i dont think you would actually get that earlier. The free 5 levels of Bardic Music does seem odd though.
Early how?

Bard 7/Heartfire Fanner 2 ?
X 7/Heartfire Fanner 4?
Neither of those get Inspire Greatness before 9th level.

[Blackhawk748]

Early how?

Bard 7/Heartfire Fanner 2 ?
X 7/Heartfire Fanner 4?
Neither of those get Inspire Greatness before 9th level.

I read your OP as Early when you said Easy, nevermind.

[Alistaroc]

Nobody has input on said build?

[Hiro Quester]

I don't think this works to get you that high bardic music.

Initiate of Milil makes cleric levels stack with bard levels. But HFF gives you 5th level bard music, if you did not already have it for a previous class. That is, the bardic music you get from cleric and initiate of Milil does not stack with the bard 5music you get from HFF.

I don't see IoM on your list of feats in the build, though.

If you have IoM, though, (e.g. At 6level) Then at level 8 you sing like a bard 7, not a bard12. Plus your HFF levels stack with bard/cleric levels for songs and inspire courage bonus. So your IC bonus is like bard 8.

You don't get inspire greatness at 9th. You get the HFF's metamagic song.

At the end of HFF, you have some rather great abilities, though. I played a bard/sublime chord/HFF/Abjurant champ a while back. The HFF song that grants everyone one, two, or three fighter feats is indeed awesome. My party requested that a lot.

Another problem is that war weaver only advances arcane casting. Divine spell casting does not advance. HFF advances any kind of casting, though.

One option here is to add Hff1 at level8, then war weaver1 at level 9 (since that level doesn't advance casting), a level of sublime chord at level 10, then use the rest of HFF, war weaver and seeker of the song to advance sublime chord's arcane casting to 9th level arcane spells.

Then you have the lower level clerics spells to cast through the Weave for your party (much better buff spells, I believe). Plus arcane spells at higher levels.

Plus HFFs ability to sing inspire courage plus songs that grant all your party their choice of three fighter feats.

Plus the bard's 6th level spells as 6th level SC spells, so Irresistable dance comes online at 13th level.

I'd try to work lingering spell into the mix, do songs you sing for only one round (before switching songs) last for another ten rounds.

Melodic casting is also a must have, so you can cast and sing simultaneously.

Edit:

Bigger problem: war weaver requires you to be able to cast 3rd level ARCANE spells. With a cleric base you can't do that.

Further edit:
Oh. I think I see. You seem to be assuming that HFF grants bard casting, too. That's the only way you could say you get bard13 casting. Maybe. I still don't see how you can get cleric10 and d Bard 13 casting.

You don't though. HFF advances an existing spell casting class. In your case cleric. So you don't have the 3level arcane casting that war weaver requires.

And seeker of the song adds to bardic music, but does not advance any casting.

[Alistaroc]

I don't think this works to get you that high bardic music.

Initiate of Milil makes cleric levels stack with bard levels. But HFF gives you 5th level bard music, if you did not already have it for a previous class. That is, the bardic music you get from cleric and initiate of Milil does not stack with the bard 5music you get from HFF.

I don't see IoM on your list of feats in the build, though.

If you have IoM, though, (e.g. At 6level) Then at level 8 you sing like a bard 7, not a bard12. Plus your HFF levels stack with bard/cleric levels for songs and inspire courage bonus. So your IC bonus is like bard 8.

You don't get inspire greatness at 9th. You get the HFF's metamagic song.

At the end of HFF, you have some rather great abilities, though. I played a bard/sublime chord/HFF/Abjurant champ a while back. The HFF song that grants everyone one, two, or three fighter feats is indeed awesome. My party requested that a lot.

Another problem is that war weaver only advances arcane casting. Divine spell casting does not advance. HFF advances any kind of casting, though.

One option here is to add Hff1 at level8, then war weaver1 at level 9 (since that level doesn't advance casting), a level of sublime chord at level 10, then use the rest of HFF, war weaver and seeker of the song to advance sublime chord's arcane casting to 9th level arcane spells.

Then you have the lower level clerics spells to cast through the Weave for your party (much better buff spells, I believe). Plus arcane spells at higher levels.

Plus HFFs ability to sing inspire courage plus songs that grant all your party their choice of three fighter feats.

Plus the bard's 6th level spells as 6th level SC spells, so Irresistable dance comes online at 13th level.

I'd try to work lingering spell into the mix, do songs you sing for only one round (before switching songs) last for another ten rounds.

Melodic casting is also a must have, so you can cast and sing simultaneously.

Edit:

Bigger problem: war weaver requires you to be able to cast 3rd level ARCANE spells. With a cleric base you can't do that.

Further edit:
Oh. I think I see. You seem to be assuming that HFF grants bard casting, too. That's the only way you could say you get bard13 casting. Maybe. I still don't see how you can get cleric10 and d Bard 13 casting.

You don't though. HFF advances an existing spell casting class. In your case cleric. So you don't have the 3level arcane casting that war weaver requires.

And seeker of the song adds to bardic music, but does not advance any casting.
How about the arcane Sha'ir build then? I lose out on the cleric buffs, but I end up with better arcane casting, and Seeker of the Song's nigh-unlimited OOC healing.

What about Inspire Greatness though? Using the Necklace of the Muse and Words of Creation, it would give 6d10+6*Con HP, and 5 phantom feats, and using Combine Song, I can play it WITH Inspire Courage.

Melodic Casting looks nice, but Lingering Spell is totally unnecessary; Aife's Mandolin will play for 5 rounds + Cha bonus after playing, and the Harmonic Chain adds 3 rounds to that, plenty long for most combat. In fact, that I can play for a round then switch to casting also makes Melodic Casting negligible.

So... what would be a build that combines Seeker of the Song 4, War Weaver 5, and Heartfire Fanner 5, and gets Inspire Greatness and Inspire Courage? Temporary hitpoints, feats, damage, healing, casting; seems to me like if it's possible to get it all in there, it'd make for a perfect support build.

And for the 3rd level arcane spells, Alternative Source Spell takes care of that. And yes, I know I lose spellcasting during Seeker of the Song levels.

[Hiro Quester]

Sha'ir might get you a good base. I don't know much about their casting mechanic, apart from it involving a little
Genie fetching spells for you. As long as it's arcane, and CHA based, that should synergize well.

The problem is HFF's prerequisite of 10 ranks in perform and diplomacy. You would have yo find a way to get perform as a class skill.

Apart from a backstory of being raised in a traveling theater troupe and a lenient DM, I think that will cost a feat. I think there is an apprentice feat that does this.


Edit:
Apprentice (Entertainer), DMG2, puts both diplomacy & perform on your character as permanent class skills

Further edit:
Start with Sha'ir, then three levels of Human paragon would lose a caster level, but progress casting for th other two, also get perform as a class skill for every class, plus a bonus feat and a +2 bump to CHA.

Check with your DM about whether the Divine spells the Sha'ir fetches can be cast into your weave, or if it's only arcane ones. This isn't clear from the description I read.

I don't know about the necklace of muses or Alfie's mandolin. What books are they from?

The thing about a mandolin that plays for 5 rounds (assuming it works like a harmonizing weapon) is that it switches song with you. It's good if you only sing one song, then go on to other things and the mandolin plays 5 more rounds. But when you are singing many songs, one after the other, it only carries on the last one you were singing.

Lingering song makes even a song you sing for one round last for 10 rounds. And when you switch to a new one, or sing two songs with the seeker ability, all songs get 10 rounds duration.

But if Sha'ir casting is progressed by HFF and War weaver, and you can pump perform during Sha'ir and perform and diplomacy in war weaver levels, you should have a good build. They are not class skills for war weaver, and perform isn't for Sha'ir, as I recall.

I don't know if seeker is worth it past two levels. Not progressing casting would hurt for me.

Sha'ir 7/HFF5/war weaver 5/ seeker2/ one level of something else fun, would be okay. If you can manage the skill points to pump perform enough HFF would give you get inspire greatness.

[Alistaroc]

Sha'ir might get you a good base. I don't know much about their casting mechanic, apart from it involving a little
Genie fetching spells for you. As long as it's arcane, and CHA based, that should synergize well.

The problem is HFF's prerequisite of 10 ranks in perform and diplomacy. You would have yo find a way to get perform as a class skill.

Apart from a backstory of being raised in a traveling theater troupe and a lenient DM, I think that will cost a feat. I think there is an apprentice feat that does this.


Edit:
Apprentice (Entertainer), DMG2, puts both diplomacy & perform on your character as permanent class skills

Further edit:
Start with Sha'ir, then three levels of Human paragon would lose a caster level, but progress casting for th other two, also get perform as a class skill for every class, plus a bonus feat and a +2 bump to CHA.

Check with your DM about whether the Divine spells the Sha'ir fetches can be cast into your weave, or if it's only arcane ones. This isn't clear from the description I read.

I don't know about the necklace of muses or Alfie's mandolin. What books are they from?

The thing about a mandolin that plays for 5 rounds (assuming it works like a harmonizing weapon) is that it switches song with you. It's good if you only sing one song, then go on to other things and the mandolin plays 5 more rounds. But when you are singing many songs, one after the other, it only carries on the last one you were singing.

Lingering song makes even a song you sing for one round last for 10 rounds. And when you switch to a new one, or sing two songs with the seeker ability, all songs get 10 rounds duration.

But if Sha'ir casting is progressed by HFF and War weaver, and you can pump perform during Sha'ir and perform and diplomacy in war weaver levels, you should have a good build. They are not class skills for war weaver, and perform isn't for Sha'ir, as I recall.

I don't know if seeker is worth it past two levels. Not progressing casting would hurt for me.

Sha'ir 7/HFF5/war weaver 5/ seeker2/ one level of something else fun, would be okay. If you can manage the skill points to pump perform enough HFF would give you get inspire greatness.
The Necklace of Muses and Aife's Mandolin are from Dragon 314, same as the Heartfire Fanner. Page 90 iirc.
The Mandolin seems to give me Lingering Spell for the two songs I play on it with Combine Song. And the Denouement ability from Harmonic Chain(Also Dragon 314) makes any music last 3 rounds after I stop playing, much like Lingering Song.
And yes I lose casting from Seeker 4, but since I'm focusing on the Bardic Music aspect anyway, with the casting/war weaver coming secondary, I figure that abundance of OOC healing is really nice. By Level 14(earliest possible), that's a guaranteed 17+Cha(Before any other boosts) healing every round while you maintain the song. Even in combat, that's not something to ignore. I'd be even willing to lose the casting if it meant a truly badass Bardic Music user, although I'd like to keep as much casting as possible. Perhaps shaving off a few levels of War Weaver, or dropping the class entirely, might be the answer?
And so if I have HFF 4 and Perform: 12, I get Inspire Greatness, right?

[Hiro Quester]

It does seem that HFF 1opens up all bardic music, as long as you meet the requirements of so many ranks in perform. So if you max outperform, you get IG at 9th level, with 12 ranks in perform.

You should check this interpretation with your DM, though. As with everything.

You should also check about the artifacts you are describing. They do sound pretty awesome. It will depend on your DM giving you a quest(s) or something like that to earn these artifacts. They don't have prices, and probably ant be purchased. And they are somewhat overpowered.