Have you seen this man?

[Doctor Despair]

You are a level 20 character. Can you find or detect this character?

I'm trying to figure out how to actually go unseen in DnD.

Races and Templates
Dark Template from Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (+8 Hide, hips)
God Blooded of Vecna (Immune to Divination)
Necropolitan (Immune to Lifesense)
Half Giant (1 power point)
Forest Gnome (+4 size, +4 racial, pass without a trace)
Major Efreeti Bloodline (3 ranks)

Traits/items:
Emotionless (or an item of mind blank for Detect Hostile Intent)
Cloak of Etherealness (Immune to Touchsight)
Wands of Magic Aura (cast on all other items to make them appear nonmagical, hiding from arcane sight)
Ring of Superior Invisibility (Immune to Divination, so this is a +20 bonus)
Bag of Holding
Five +6 charisma items (Artificer can transmute the buffs to types other than enhancement, allowing them to stack)
+5 Inherent Bonus (cha)
+5 Inherent bonus (dex)
+30 item as per standard
Armor Enhancement +15

Feats:
Track
Item Familiar (bag of holding) (+26 ranks)
Leadership (artificer)
Darkstalker
Dodge (Bloodline)
Mobility (Martial Rogue)
Combat Reflexes (Martial Rogue)
Stealthy
Skill focus: hide

Class Levels
Marshal 1 (Motivate Dexterity)
Slayer 6 (Immune to Mindsight)
Fox Totem Barbarian 1 (+4 Hide)
Martial Rogue 2
Shadowdancer 1
Factotum 9 (Cunning Surge, extra standards)

Final Hide Stat: ~133?

[Forrestfire]

You have no way to get around metafaculty (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metafaculty.htm), nor do you have a way to hide from Mindsight or touchsight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/touchsight.htm).

[Doctor Despair]

You have no way to get around metafaculty (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metafaculty.htm), nor do you have a way to hide from Mindsight or touchsight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/touchsight.htm).

Slayer 6 hides you from mindsight; being ethereal makes you incorporeal and therefore not touchable by that touchsight; as for metafaculty, the seer would first need to have *seen* this character to cast it, which could prevent an issue; assuming this character took the Godblooded template fairly late, it would mean that any psion with the metafaculty ability would immediately forget that it had ever seen this character, rendering it unable to make use of the metafaculty ability. Regardless, if the psion could bypass that, it would allow the caster to find the man for a third of an hour with one use. :) Not much to do about top-level psionics, though.

[ryu]

There's also the method of creating an ice assassin of your character then mind-raping that ice assassin to know all that you did at the time of its creation. It's one of the most potent information gathering tools out there and it's not even divination based.

[Doctor Despair]

There's also the method of creating an ice assassin of your character then mind-raping that ice assassin to know all that you did at the time of its creation. It's one of the most potent information gathering tools out there and it's not even divination based.

That comes with the caveat, of course, that you are already aware of this character; a wish for a strand of hair from him without at least a detailed description or a name seems like it would not be very effective. Regardless, again assuming that Vecna Blooded is bypassed somehow -- Is there a save for someone wishing for a strand of *your* hair, or is there any way to avoid this?

Edit: Actually, assuming you were able to make the wish without knowing anything about this character beforehand, the ice assassin telling you that would open this character up to metafaculty, but without that secondary ability, knowing where this character has been could possibly be unhelpful in finding him now unless he has a base of some sort or frequent haunts. I feel it is important to avoid opening that channel to metafaculty, however, since not being known in the first place seems to be the only defense against it that I can find.

[ryu]

That comes with the caveat, of course, that you are already aware of this character; a wish for a strand of hair from him without at least a detailed description or a name seems like it would not be very effective. Regardless, again assuming that Vecna Blooded is bypassed somehow -- Is there a save for someone wishing for a strand of *your* hair, or is there any way to avoid this?

Edit: Actually, assuming you were able to make the wish without knowing anything about this character beforehand, the ice assassin telling you that would open this character up to metafaculty, but without that secondary ability, knowing where this character has been could possibly be unhelpful in finding him now unless he has a base of some sort or frequent haunts. I feel it is important to avoid opening that channel to metafaculty, however, since not being known in the first place seems to be the only defense against it that I can find.

Actually hair has no cost. Therefor you can anyone's hair in your spell component pouch. There's also the fact that unless you literally never do anything someone somewhere is bound to see you. There are defenses to this tactic that I figured out. They involve cycling the vecna blooded on and off every day, and self mind-raping to hide information even from your own ice assassins. It's imperfect, but still powerful.

[Doctor Despair]

Actually hair has no cost. Therefor you can anyone's hair in your spell component pouch. There's also the fact that unless you literally never do anything someone somewhere is bound to see you. There are defenses to this tactic that I figured out. They involve cycling the vecna blooded on and off every day, and self mind-raping to hide information even from your own ice assassins. It's imperfect, but still powerful.

With vecna blooded, you actually lose all your hair, but that's a fair point. Spell component shenanigans are silly. So if you use the DR of a godblooded template, you lose the template; subsequently, you return and say hello to your friendly neighborhood anchorite to wipe the planet's memory of you again, for no additional LA? Sounds horribly masochistic and weirdly effective; sign me up.

Programmed Amnesia sounds like a safer bet; you can include a trigger to regain the lost memories if ever you need them as well. "If I ever snap my fingers three times in quick succession and am not an ice assassin, a cloned creature, or anything of the sort other than an original" or something to that effect.

[ryu]

With vecna blooded, you actually lose all your hair, but that's a fair point. Spell component shenanigans are silly. So if you use the DR of a godblooded template, you lose the template; subsequently, you return and say hello to your friendly neighborhood anchorite to wipe the planet's memory of you again, for no additional LA? Sounds horribly masochistic and weirdly effective; sign me up.

Programmed Amnesia sounds like a safer bet; you can include a trigger to regain the lost memories if ever you need them as well. "If I ever snap my fingers three times in quick succession and am not an ice assassin, a cloned creature, or anything of the sort other than an original" or something to that effect.

No. Crafted contingent mind-rapes for all mental alterations. Programmed amnesia can be forcibly removed without your consent. Not so with the contingent mind-rape method. It's the most effective method I've found to hide information in this game. As vecna blooded takes you off even deific sensor radar, and there is no combination of spells that I know of that offers you access to information that literally no one knows and is protected from divination... It's pretty big as information defense. The reason you apply daily is because it's assumed you intend to continue doing things. It's easy to never be noticed again. Just stop doing things in general.

[ben-zayb]

Ethereal =/= Incorporeal. Mindsight isn't a device. Save-game trick and other time-travel shenanigans gets around the "not knowing you" part. Clerics of Mystra spawned with a Colossus' AMF, spawned all over a plane, will pretty much nix your magic tricks.

[ryu]

Ethereal =/= Incorporeal. Mindsight isn't a device. Save-game trick and other time-travel shenanigans gets around the "not knowing you" part. Clerics of Mystra spawned with a Colossus' AMF, spawned all over a plane, will pretty much nix your magic tricks.

Ah, but how do you know to time travel if you have not a reason, a cause, or any real plan? This is why I made the point about the only absolute defense being to activate vecna blooded from your own personal demiplane, then never leave it. The only way to beat it is to notice events happening in the world since the taking of the template, and follow up on them. Scary huh?

[ben-zayb]

Ah, but how do you know to time travel if you have not a reason, a cause, or any real plan? This is why I made the point about the only absolute defense being to activate vecna blooded from your own personal demiplane, then never leave it. The only way to beat it is to notice events happening in the world since the taking of the template, and follow up on them. Scary huh?
I mean, do it only once the dude tries messing with you. No need for unnecessary violence and all

[Doctor Despair]

No. Crafted contingent mind-rapes for all mental alterations. Programmed amnesia can be forcibly removed without your consent. Not so with the contingent mind-rape method.

In the case of a contingent mindrape upon "an attempt to clone, duplicate, or otherwise copy the character" , I could use it on myself to forget anything, and then also wear a contingent wish to activate to replace the memories upon replacing the contingent mindrape. Of course, that means we'd have to not wear an item of mind blank -- can you think of any other ways to circumvent "detect hostile intent"? Otherwise, I suppos ewe could



Ethereal =/= Incorporeal. Mindsight isn't a device. Save-game trick and other time-travel shenanigans gets around the "not knowing you" part. Clerics of Mystra spawned with a Colossus' AMF, spawned all over a plane, will pretty much nix your magic tricks.

"Cerebral Blind (Su)
After reaching 6th level, a slayer is protected from all devices, powers, and spells that reveal location. This ability protects against information gathering by clairsentience powers or effects that reveal location.

The ability even foils bend reality, limited wish, miracle, reality revision, and wish when they are used to gain information about the slayer’s location (however, metafaculty can pierce this protective barrier). In the case of remote viewing or scrying that scans an area a slayer is in, the effect works, but the slayer simply isn’t detected. Remote viewing or scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at a slayer do not work. This ability is active as long as the slayer is psionically focused."

Mindsight is certainly falls within the bounds of a device, power, or spell, with the emphasis on power.

As far as incorporealness, yes, it seems that a staff of Ghostform would be needed rather than the ethereal cloak -- the artificer could take persistent spell, extend spell, arcane thesis (ghostform), and easy metamagic (persistent spell) to apply it to the staff, if I am understanding staff creation correctly, to make a one-day buff.


I mean, do it only once the dude tries messing with you. No need for unnecessary violence and all

As for the time travel aspect... If ever this character found cause to "mess with" a mage, it would hopefully be in an attempt to kill one -- not that he could do so very effectively. If we were trying to add some sort of action upon sneaking up to a mage...

If we trade out some levels of factotum for 5 levels in Witch Hunter, we could have this character sneak up to a mage (if he ever found one, which considering how easy it is to block divination, doesn't seem likely), then Mordenkainen's Disjunction from a staff to remove contingent spells, use the Witch Slayer's disjunction ability to suppress any casting, SLAs, or supernatural abilities, and hope that this stealth-based character that has no real offensive capability can now 100 to 0 this caster before the time runs out. Now, he might carry a party member who, for whatever reason, didn't need to breath in the lead-lined bag of holding, pull her out as a move action fueled by a chronocharm of travel devotion, and then this more combat-focused party member could take part in the beatdown. This is overtaxing in terms of actions, however, since it would be a standard action to activate the staff, a swift to use the WS ability, a move action to pull out the character, and have that character have a prepared action to, upon being drawn from the bag, activate a belt of battle. Now that drawn character can full attack on the mage. To increase the speed here, we could have the staff wrapped with a craft:contingent spell mordenkainen's disjunction, contingent upon the usage of the Witch Slayer's ability, freeing up the standard action for an attack -- perhaps a trip attempt on the suddenly defenseless caster, or somesuch, or perhaps simply to move up to the caster initially from 40+ feet away to circumvent any close-range sensory shenanigans someone could cook up. This doesn't allow us to actually find any such caster, however. Items can grant flight, but items do not grant a high enough caster level to reliably divine any way to search out a specific caster. This seems more effective in a case where you have been told for Plot Reasons where the big bad (even optimized) caster lives.

[ryu]

I think you misunderstand me. I meant mind-raping knowledge of your most important battle tactics and secrets into contingent mind rape restores at relevant points. You can even have them trigger before the mind-blank contingency buff. Combining craft contingent spell with hoards of minions to bypass the maximum number of spells you can contingency is a frighteningly powerful strategy, because with enough forethought you can solve pretty much any problem. It is a strategy without need of turns, foreknowledge of specific combats, or even rationing of resources. Just a love of finding spell strings that solve problems.

[Doctor Despair]

I think you misunderstand me. I meant mind-raping knowledge of your most important battle tactics and secrets into contingent mind rape restores at relevant points. You can even have them trigger before the mind-blank contingency buff. Combining craft contingent spell with hoards of minions to bypass the maximum number of spells you can contingency is a frighteningly powerful strategy, because with enough forethought you can solve pretty much any problem. It is a strategy without need of turns, foreknowledge of specific combats, or even rationing of resources. Just a love of finding spell strings that solve problems.

I'm still a little confused about exactly what you intend. So the ice is attempted to be made; a contingency mind rape needs to occur to wipe memories of secrets, stealth tactics, and, most importantly, battle tactics. Subsequently, the ice assassin creation would resolve, and a second contingency mind rape would need to occur to restore the memories. This doesn't seem to leave room for an item of mind blank, so we need to make another contingent spell for it.

Mind blank to trigger upon:
- Any effect, spell, ability, power, device, or method an entity uses to detect, find, or discover the Slayer by means that would succeed without the trigger of this spell
and
- Any mind-affecting effect produced by a character other than the Slayer that would succeed in affecting the Slayer without the trigger of this spell

Of course, this leaves an issue where a character could try to do something as simple as charm the Slayer, then walk away and ice assassin him when the mindrapes would not function, so... this leaves us with the situation where the Slayer cannot safely have the memories in the first place...

If the Ice Assassin gets the gear of the character, one could contingency Disjunction again upon a clone being made of the Slayer so that, on creation, the ice assassin is dispelled.

Edit:

Actually, wouldn't the ice assassin be subject to a wish to restore the memories in any case, rendering this work useless?

Edit 2:

Hah, a funny thing: the maker of the ice assassin would be unable to scry it as the ice assassin spell suggests. Actually, the ice assassin would be rendered immune to the entirity of the ice assassin spell technically; does that mean that it is not compelled to follow the orders of its creator? Then again, the best method to killing this Slayer is to tell the ice assassin creator all about the Slayer, so that might not change anything, haha.

[ryu]

I think you're getting closer. The slayer literally doesn't have memories on a day to day basis. He gains them at the start of any fight then gains contingent mindblank triggered to always go after that event.

You'll also notice that the ice assassin has no claim on the hidden memories at all. It only knows what you know at the time it was created and was at no point subject to mindrape. That's the point of the tactic. Make all the ice assassins of my character you want. They won't know anything of value, and if you're powerful enough to cast these spells you likely won't learn any new ones. That's assuming I was kind enough to leave memory of any spells over seventh level. By rights you would've been better off using the slot on yourself. At least then you wouldn't have the hassle of getting it to be able to function properly.

We can also regain memories at will if we have something that we know requires higher level spells or more important memories.

[ben-zayb]

Power is a D&D-term. Go look it up.

Re: Disjunction wishful thinking: If a hi-op caster doesn't allow you to kill him, and you aren't a caster yourself, you simply can't. All those tricks you do to hide against a mage is equally available to her.

[ryu]

Power is a D&D-term. Go look it up.

Re: Disjunction wishful thinking: If a hi-op caster doesn't allow you to kill him, and you aren't a caster yourself, you simply can't. All those tricks you do to hide against a mage is equally available to her.

This is also why most of my options are spells or templates of some description. They really are just about the most efficient way to do things.

[Doctor Despair]

Power is a D&D-term. Go look it up.

Re: Disjunction wishful thinking: If a hi-op caster doesn't allow you to kill him, and you aren't a caster yourself, you simply can't. All those tricks you do to hide against a mage is equally available to her.

Disjunction is certainly not wishful thinking. If ever the character is near enough to the mage to cast it, it will function as written; likewise, if this stealth becomes complete, so does the method of approach. Mages can abuse recursive methods to gain infinite stats, divine ranks, etc., but if they have not done that, then in all likelihood they will not have this optimized hide stat, or if they really are optimized, even have darkstalker or God Blooded of Vecna or any of this. If they were so devoted to hiding, then this character simply wouldn't encounter them and it would be a nonissue because neither of them would find each other. This isn't the main function of the thread, anyway.

Regardless:

I don't want to bring up the numerous line of effect arguments relating to mind blank, but really, there seems to be only precious few ways to block mindsight, in descending order of support by RAW:

- Mind Blank (telepathy is not mind-affecting, so this is not strongly supported)
- Hellbreaker's telepathic static (only functions to 20 feet and indicates that, well, a hellbreaker is within 20 feet)
- Vecna's Enigma Aura (50% chance to forget the creature is there -- hardly consistent enough to depend on, and with no actual ruling on what forgetting the creature entails)
- Block line of effect (years and years of debate over whether or not telepathy requires line of effect, what range refers to, etc)
- Slayer Cerebral Blind ("This ability protects against information gathering by clairsentience powers or effects that reveal location." If we are using very strict readings such that you don't want to allow *power* or *device* to apply to this ability, then this clause should function fine. Grammatically, it is implied that it is clairsentience powers or clairsentience effects, but it actually says "clairsentience powers" AND "effects that reveal location")
- Be Mindless (hardly an option for a player character, but the most RAW)

Rather than just grabbing a towershield and claiming to be immune to mindsight, I thought it was safer, for this build, just to take six levels of slayer.

_________

Edit:

Being a caster is certainly the easiest way to kill a caster, but the six level dip in slayer realllllly hurts us here considering none of it advances caster level. We *could* look for a psionic build, though I've never built such a character before. Regardless, it seemed prudent to get the actually decent HiPS from Shadowdancer, Marshal seemed prudent for the dexterity boost to hide, and that only leaves us with 12 levels of caster progression. I suppose we could go Ur Priest in that time for 9th level divine spells, or 6th level spells from an advanced progression arcane prc, but it seemed simplest just to take the artificer cohort

Edit 2:

Actually, if we did a psionic build, it would get us ML 17, ripe for Clairsentience for that juicy 9th level spell. That would be a good way to find a mage, considering all the work we're having to do to circumvent it.

[ben-zayb]

The premise starts off with you saying "You have a level 20 character". So unless we get to randomly pick everything out of a hat, *I* get to decide what my character 20 can do. There are more than one ways to block Disjunction, and the simplest is even just LoE.

Telepathy isn't blocked by LoE, however. Mindsight is a Feat, which IIRC is counted as Ex, and neither a device nor a power by RAW. Unless your character is either mindless, out of Mindsight range, or in a different plane, you are getting detected.

Moreover, you still have to deal with the fact that AMF will gimp most of your tricks.

If you want to enforce RA(Doctor Despair)I or houserules, then that's a different thing. Maybe Mindsight gets blocked by Cerebral Blind, or Mind Blank, even.

[ryu]

Another fun tippy trick to learn is selective metamagic effected antimagic fields. It's a terrifyingly good defense without the usual nasty drawbacks.

[Dgrin]

Mindsight is an effect that reveals location, so it is countered by Slayer.

Mindsight does not work if the telepath is in the Hellbreaker's anti-telepathy field cause you lose you prerequisite for the feat once you lose telepathy. It is not terribly useful though, considering the range of that ability...

[Doctor Despair]

The premise starts off with you saying "You have a level 20 character". So unless we get to randomly pick everything out of a hat, *I* get to decide what my character 20 can do. There are more than one ways to block Disjunction, and the simplest is even just LoE.

Telepathy isn't blocked by LoE, however. Mindsight is a Feat, which IIRC is counted as Ex, and neither a device nor a power by RAW. Unless your character is either mindless, out of Mindsight range, or in a different plane, you are getting detected.

Moreover, you still have to deal with the fact that AMF will gimp most of your tricks.

If you want to enforce RA(Doctor Despair)I or houserules, then that's a different thing. Maybe Mindsight gets blocked by Cerebral Blind, or Mind Blank, even.


You do indeed get to design your character; I apologize if I seemed heated or at all to be suggesting otherwise. I was just trying to provide as RAW a discussion as I can and seek solutions. What manner of LoE do you consider a mage would have up passively? The idea here is that this character would only encounter what defenses a caster has up continuously -- when a caster is aware of you, there is not much you can do, I must agree.

There is a huge debate on whether or not telepathy is blocked by LoE, but I'd rather not delve into that.

As the the AMF, I am unsure exactly what you are suggesting. The level 20 character has spawned multiple other characters that, in turn, have spawned colossi? How are these colossi getting onto the plane without the 20+ level character making them? Or are they just getting the ability? I am confused.

And I am not discussing any sort of houserules. If I were imposing houserules, Mindsight wouldn't require six levels to circumvent it, but here we are. In any event, it appears to me that, as written, slayer circumvents mindsight in the sentence: "This ability protects against information gathering by clairsentience powers or effects that reveal location."

[ben-zayb]

Mindsight is an effect that reveals location, so it is countered by Slayer.

Mindsight does not work if the telepath is in the Hellbreaker's anti-telepathy field cause you lose you prerequisite for the feat once you lose telepathy. It is not terribly useful though, considering the range of that ability...
It is neither a device, a power, a spell, nor an effect. It's a feat.

[Doctor Despair]

Another fun tippy trick to learn is selective metamagic effected antimagic fields. It's a terrifyingly good defense without the usual nasty drawbacks.

That is absolutely terrifying and can be persisted; that is a real issue. Is there any way other than spell resistance to get around this? I seem to recall a divine spell that granted you immunity to a single spell?


It is neither a device, a power, a spell, nor an effect. It's a feat.

And this feat produces an effect. If it had no effect, then telepathy would function as per normal. The effect reveals the slayer's position by modifying telepathy; it is not suppressed, but the slayer is protected from it.

[ryu]

That is absolutely terrifying and can be persisted; that is a real issue. Is there any way other than spell resistance to get around this? I seem to recall a divine spell that granted you immunity to a single spell?

Well there's all the standard ways of hurting things in antimagic fields, having something that supersedes it like selective dead magic planar bubble, or good old-fashioned epic effects. So yeah this is how people like Tippy and I fight. The basic goal is more or less to say you lose as emphatically and uncontestably as possible. Believe it or not that's not even the worst trick. No for the worst tricks we haven't even started on the glorious stupidity that is aleax.

[Dgrin]

It is neither a device, a power, a spell, nor an effect. It's a feat.

Unless you can provide rules-definition for effect, we refer to English meaning of this word. Under that reading the ability to detect creatures via Mindsight is most definitely an effect

On topic: Fusion + Astral Seed to obtain mageripper's swarm Sense Magic ability or Dweomersight of balhannoth (both from MM4)
Omniscificer has +NI in Spot, detecting you despite you Hide modifier

[Doctor Despair]

Well there's all the standard ways of hurting things in antimagic fields, having something that supersedes it like selective dead magic planar bubble, or good old-fashioned epic effects. So yeah this is how people like Tippy and I fight. The basic goal is more or less to say you lose as emphatically and uncontestably as possible. Believe it or not that's not even the worst trick. No for the worst tricks we haven't even started on the glorious stupidity that is aleax.

Oh yes, ice assassin-ing an Aleax, right? It's so silly... That's kind of what inspired me to consider this character. Casters can essentially recursively kill anything, become anything, and achieve anything given ample time and no premature interference from deities. I'd like to think some deity, in the canon, would have smited mages who tried to capital s Shenanigans, but I enjoy reading all things Tippy faaaar too much to ever hope for that, haha. Regardless, I feel like, when building any character, you are forced to assume that either:

A. Tippy does not have a character in this universe; the evidence is that the universe is still here without too many scratches.

B. Tippy's character rapidly ascended using T0 Shenanigans and has left the universe for bigger and better things.

C. Tippy's character is so impossibly wrapped in his own power and tomfoolery that he couldn't be bothered to even begin to imagine the mere level 20 character you are planning even exists, no matter what T0 level you optimize to. Your plans and ambitions, so long as they do not specifically target these infinitely statted characters, should go unimpeded by them.

EDIT:

Would Greater Spell Immunity stop an AMF from suppressing these stealth effects? Or would the AMF suppress the effects of the Immunity (ironically enough) and then suppress the effects anyway?

[ben-zayb]

Unless you can provide rules-definition for effect, we refere to English meaning of this word. Under that reading the ability to detect creatures via Mindsight is most definitely an effect
You mean the route where all manner of sight is itself just an effect, hence The Sneak wouldn't be able to see and locate itself, and can't target itself with most effects because they require LoS? Okay.

Furthermore, now I can IHS Cerebral Blind, because it clearly affects my perception and it is not instantaneous.

Re: LoE passives: It's more "can't be flatfooted" + "has immediate action to cast spells" + "what makes you think there are no contingencies being set off by such attempts?" + "your spells and effects are not you, and can easily be detected and counteracted".

Re: +NI spot. Yes, +NI hide interacts with that pretty nicely

[Sian]

I'd like to know how you manage to be Half-Giant (which is a race just as half-orc is, and not a template just as half-dragon) AND Forest Gnome (which is a race) at the same time.

[Dgrin]

You mean the route where all manner of sight is itself just an effect, hence The Sneak wouldn't be able to see and locate itself, and can't target itself with most effects because they require LoS? Okay.

Furthermore, now I can IHS Cerebral Blind, because it clearly affects my perception and it is not instantaneous.

No, I mean that detecting the Sneak, as you call him, is an effect of having the Mindsight feat. Or, if we take a different definition, Mindsight is a "power or ability to influence or produce a result" of detecting creatures inside your Telepathy radius.
Moreover, Mindsight "works much like blindsense", and blindsense states that it requires line of effect, which hints in favour of it being an effect.
Also note that Cerebral Blind is not directly affecting you and does not have the listed duration of 1 or more rounds.

[ben-zayb]

No, I mean that detecting the Sneak, as you call him, is an effect of having the Mindsight feat. Moreover, Mindsight "works much like blindsense", and blindsense states that it requires line of effect, which hints in favour of it being an effect.
Also note that Cerebral Blind is not directly affecting you and does not have the listed duration of 1 or more rounds.No, you clealy meant using RL definition for Effect, which is what we are doing now. Visual perception is an effect by such RL definition. About the blindsense, much like =/= same, no hints whatsoever. Cerebral Blind is clearly directly affecting me by blocking my abilities, and it having a listed duration isn't required. So unless Cerebral Blind ends every round, IHS works.

EDIT: Oops, missed that
Or, if we take a different definition, Visual perception is a "power or ability to influence or produce a result" of detecting creatures within your line of sight.

[Doctor Despair]

On topic: Fusion + Astral Seed to obtain mageripper's swarm Sense Magic ability or Dweomersight of balhannoth (both from MM4)
Omnitificer has +NI in Spot, detecting you despite you Hide modifier

For Dweomersight, the creature can sense the presence, position, strength, and school of magic auras within 120 feet (I'm not sure what to do about that at all; so far I answered arcane sight with the magic aura spell, but I'm not sure what all other solutions I could seek out) and can pinpoint the location of any creature with... etc... (C.Blind should deal with the middle at least) and it can notice anything within the area of a magical effect (I'm not even sure what this part means, to be honest).

For the Sense Magic ability, again the second half detects creatures, which Slayer helpfully shields against, but as for the auras, I am unsure if the magic aura spell causing the equipment to appear as mundane would work. Is that how detecting auras work?

I have no answer to Omnitificer except my Tippy analogy earlier. :p We have to assume that any Tippy-class infinity strength either doesn't occur or occurred long before this time, or DnD campaigns become silly. On the other hand, it could be an interesting campaign setting. Consider it: there is a PunPun with infinity skills, BAB, saves, etc. Full divine ranks. The gods are all enslaved. The most elder deity, before being overtaken by PunPun, used his abilities to alter things such that, through some quirk of the universe, some ripple in spacetime, a group of adventurers emerged that were destined to kill PunPun and, so empowered by the maximum amount of divine ranks in this universe, became invisible, undetectable, and utterly un-seeable to PunPun as he presently is. Then, that Elder Deity destroyed itself, knowing that PunPun could and would take its divine ranks and/or knowledge.


Re: LoE passives: It's more "can't be flatfooted" + "has immediate action to cast spells" + "what makes you think there are no contingencies being set off by such attempts?" + "your spells and effects are not you, and can easily be detected and counteracted"

The disjunction is an instantaneous effect, so it should resolve before something responding to the disjunction. The spells and effects should, for will saves, receive the character will save, and are covered by the "magic aura" spell to hide their auras. Immediate action can only be taken if you aren't flat-footed, and how exactly can you not be flatfooted now? Last I checked that was a divine salient ability.



I'd like to know how you manage to be Half-Giant (which is a race just as half-orc is, and not a template just as half-dragon) AND Forest Gnome (which is a race) at the same time.

Oops! In all my campaigns, my DMs had told me that it was RAW to mix two races and add the LA together; now I can't seem to find it! Of course the giant isn't necessary if we are making this character psionic, though, so that's a little embarrassing but, ultimately, not problematic to the character. :)

[Dgrin]

No, you clealy meant using RL definition for Effect, which is what we are doing now. Visual perception is an effect by such RL definition. About the blindsense, much like =/= same, no hints whatsoever. Cerebral Blind is clearly directly affecting me by blocking my abilities, and it having a listed duration isn't required. So unless Cerebral Blind ends every round, IHS works.

EDIT: Oops, missed that
Or, if we take a different definition, Visual perception is a "power or ability to influence or produce a result" of detecting creatures within your line of sight.

IHS works only on effects with the duration of 1 round and more. Cerebral Blind is not "clearly" directly affecting you. Nothing changes because of the character with it being present or not. Also, using clearly dysfunctional rule as an argument is not something that proves your position but whatever.

Visual perception is an effect, I can agree with that. Not being able to see itself is a different dysfunction altogether but by Line of Sight definition given in Dungeon Master's Handbook, the creature always has Line of Sight to itself.

"Works much like X" usually implies that it works like X in most ways except for what is listed below.


For Dweomersight, the creature can sense the presence, position, strength, and school of magic auras within 120 feet (I'm not sure what to do about that at all; so far I answered arcane sight with the magic aura spell, but I'm not sure what all other solutions I could seek out) and can pinpoint the location of any creature with... etc... (C.Blind should deal with the middle at least) and it can notice anything within the area of a magical effect (I'm not even sure what this part means, to be honest).

For the Sense Magic ability, again the second half detects creatures, which Slayer helpfully shields against, but as for the auras, I am unsure if the magic aura spell causing the equipment to appear as mundane would work. Is that how detecting auras work?

Magic aura: You alter an item’s aura so that it registers to detect spells (and spells with similar capabilities) as though it were nonmagical... (emphasis mine)

[Doctor Despair]

IHS works only on effects with the duration of 1 round and more. Cerebral Blind is not "clearly" directly affecting you. Nothing changes because of the character with it being present or not. Also, using clearly dysfunctional rule as an argument is not something that proves your position but whatever...

Magic aura: You alter an item’s aura so that it registers to detect spells (and spells with similar capabilities) as though it were nonmagical... (emphasis mine)

Ah, gotcha. Is there a stronger version of the spell that can alter an aura short of nondetection? Or psionics at this point. I'm very unfamilar with psionics. D:

Also... what is IHS? All of the embarrassment here, but I did try to find out online.

[Dgrin]

Also... what is IHS? All of the embarrassment here, but I did try to find out online.

Iron Heart Surge from Tome of Battle. A maneuver known for being extremely poorly worded

[ben-zayb]

The disjunction is an instantaneous effect, so it should resolve before something responding to the disjunction. The spells and effects should, for will saves, receive the character will save, and are covered by the "magic aura" spell to hide their auras. Immediate action can only be taken if you aren't flat-footed, and how exactly can you not be flatfooted now? Last I checked that was a divine salient ability.Foresight is the simplest, although there are more. Instantaneous spells and effects can still be reacted to, otherwise Immediate Actions like maneuver [Counter] has no effect.


IHS works only on effects with the duration of 1 round and more. Cerebral Blind is not "clearly" directly affecting you. Nothing changes because of the character with it being present or not. Also, using clearly dysfunctional rule as an argument is not something that proves your position but whatever.

Visual perception is an effect, I can agree with that. Not being able to see itself is a different dysfunction altogether but by Line of Sight definition given in Dungeon Master's Handbook, the creature always has Line of Sight to itself.

"Works much like X" usually implies that it works like X in most ways except for what is listed below.



Magic aura: You alter an item’s aura so that it registers to detect spells (and spells with similar capabilities) as though it were nonmagical... (emphasis mine)Okay, I messed up there somewhere so I apologize, but what I'm simply saying was that you said yourself that RL definition is in effect here due to lack of D&D definition.

As I said, does the Cerebral Blind last for only one round? If not, then IHS works. Where in the DMG was that LoS rule stated, by the way?

Do note that we only arrived to this dysfunctional situation due to your insistence to use RL definitions when the common usage of the term in D&D is simply tied to not-spells but are functionally spells (like SLA, PLA, or Su mimicking spell or power). Speaking of poorly worded stuff like IHS...hello Cerebral Blind!

I'll wait for your RAW citation on Mindsight's "much like" passage inheriting Blindsense's LoS requirement, especially since the notable difference is the connection to Telepathy, which lacks the need for LoE and LoS.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Omnitificer has +NI in Spot, detecting you despite you Hide modifier
Slight correction: the Omniscificer has +I in Spot, not +NI - infinity rather than nigh infinity. That means that it beats any Hide check that is not also truly infinite.

[Dgrin]

As I said, does the Cerebral Blind last for only one round? If not, then IHS works.

And I asked you to prove that Cerebral Blind is an effect that lasts 1 round or more. Also I asked how is it directly affecting you. If you look at Spell Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm) rules for examples of what counts as directly or indirectly affecting, Cerebral Blind affects you indirectly, if at all.


Where in the DMG was that LoS rule stated, by the way?

Page 21, Combat section.


Do note that we only arrived to this dysfunctional situation due to your insistence to use RL definitions when the common usage of the term in D&D is simply tied to not-spells but are functionally spells (like SLA, PLA, or Su mimicking spell or power). Speaking of poorly worded stuff like IHS...hello Cerebral Blind!

Sorry, but we arrived into that situation cause you insisted that Mindsight is somehow not an effect that reveals location, inventing a lot of dysfunctional readings to prove your position. I did not use any dysfunctional situation as an argument.


I'll wait for your RAW citation on Mindsight's "much like" passage inheriting Blindsense's LoS requirement, especially since the notable difference is the connection to Telepathy, which lacks the need for LoE and LoS.

I did not say that it requires Line of Effect. The point I made was that line being another indirect clue for Mindsight being an effect. But using this reading, it inherits that requirement cause nothing in the text of feat overrules that requirement. And Mindsight is not based on Telepathy. It just has the same radius. If it was based on Telepathy, it would not work on any creature undetectable by your Telepathy, for example, being protected with Mind Blank.


Slight correction: the Omniscificer has +I in Spot, not +NI - infinity rather than nigh infinity. That means that it beats any Hide check that is not also truly infinite.

Absolutely true, thanks for the correction. I actually forgot how the trick works exactly while writing about it :smallredface:

[Doctor Despair]

Foresight is the simplest, although there are more. Instantaneous spells and effects can still be reacted to, otherwise Immediate Actions like maneuver [Counter] has no effect.

This character is immune to divination effects that yield information about it. Actually, now that I look at it, such a spell immediately gives the Vecna Blooded creature knowledge of the mage's name, location, etc. Regardless, I am unsure how one would avoid being flatfooted here short of becoming a deity, though an immediate action (were one not flatfooted) would certainly interrupt the spell.

A contingent spell is not an immediate action, however. It activates upon certain conditions being fulfilled. If that condition is "mage's disjuction is cast", then disjunction must actually be cast for it to activate. Since the disjunction has an instantaneous duration, my question is: if a spell has already been cast, and instantly resolves, does the contingent spell interrupt it? If so, then there seems to be no actual way to ever kill a wizard ever through craft: contingent spell apart from... well... craft: contingent spell. We start a fight that way:

Slayer: Creeps up and activates disjunction!
Mage: Contingent teleport!
Slayer: Contingent dimensional anchor!
Mage: Contingent teleport!
Slayer: Contingent dimensional anchor!
Mage: Immediate action teleport!
Slayer: Contingent dimensional anchor!

Until both characters simply explode from the resulting magical field and there forever remains a dead magic zone. At least, that's what my intuition would tell me. For the purposes of this discussion, then, if contingency interrupts, then we should assume an infinite loop of contingent spells and cannot actually continue the discussion. What is the RAW answer here?




If it was based on Telepathy, it would not work on any creature undetectable by your Telepathy, for example, being protected with Mind Blank.



Well, telepathy itself isn't blocked by Mind Blank iirc, but to be equally fair, telepathy also doesn't detect anything period.

Some things I was considering for the Dweomervision and Magic Sense...


Would those be affected by inches/feet/whathaveyou of lead?

Suppose there was an antimagic field surrounding a magical item emanating a magical aura. Would the aura be impeded at all by the surrounding AMF? What if it were in a selective AMF such that its wielder were unaffected?

Suppose this Slayer had limbs chopped off and replaced by these magical items and, in other ways that are hopefully less morbid, incorporated them into his body. Would they then be subject to the Slayer's "protection from effects determining location" clause?

[ben-zayb]

And I asked you to prove that Cerebral Blind is an effect that lasts 1 round or more. Also I asked how is it directly affecting you. If you look at Spell Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm) rules for examples of what counts as directly or indirectly affecting, Cerebral Blind affects you indirectly, if at all.I already did. If Cerebral Blind worked less than a round, it'll be gone less than 6 seconds after getting it.

Page 21, Combat section.Not really anything that differentiates You from Others, aside from how lines are drawn in the battlegrid, so I'm not sure if you are just seeing a specific quote that I am not seeing.


Sorry, but we arrived into that situation cause you insisted that Mindsight is somehow not an effect that reveals location, inventing a lot of dysfunctional readings to prove your position. I did not use any dysfunctional situation as an argument.And it really isn't an effect unless we turn to RL usage of the word.


I did not say that it requires Line of Effect. The point I made was that line being another indirect clue for Mindsight being an effect. But using this reading, it inherits that requirement cause nothing in the text of feat overrules that requirement. And Mindsight is not based on Telepathy. It just has the same radius. If it was based on Telepathy, it would not work on any creature undetectable by your Telepathy, for example, being protected with Mind Blank.It does specify what only is inherited, actually.
the creature knows what square each thinking being is in, but it does not see the being, and the being still has total concealment unless the creature can see it by some other meansNothing about LoS. Whether you want to houserule something else is a different conversation. And, no, where did you get the silly notion that Telepathy is blocked by Mind Blank? It's not.

@Doc: Minotaur's Natural Cunning and a Scout's Uncanny Dodge makes one never flat-footed. And again, the issue of AMF is still a factor. Unless you reach the pount where you are practically a full cster, in which case, we might as well reach singularity.

[Doctor Despair]

Please explain, again, where these colossi are coming from that are generating these AMFs? I can't comment until I know the scenario you are referring to.

[ben-zayb]

Please explain, again, where these colossi are coming from that are generating these AMFs? I can't comment until I know the scenario you are referring to.I mean, just the normal selective AMF, which is effectively infinite range when you can explore every nook and cranny of the entire plane every round, and at some point will get you to see the practically-naked Sneak.

[Doctor Despair]

I mean, just the normal selective AMF, which is effectively infinite range when you can explore every nook and cranny of the entire plane every round, and at some point will get you to see the practically-naked Sneak.

Greater Spell Immunity AMF?

As an aside, I was wondering if you could explain this for me. I'm researching it, but it's a bit confusing.

As I look into immediate actions, it seems as though an immediate action would not precede the action that triggered it, which is to say, if a fighter throws his knife, you could not use an immediate action to cast a spell to make him fumble the knife; the knife has already been thrown. You could, however, immediate action to deflect the knife out of the air. This leads me to believe the mage could not interrupt the casting of disjunction so long as you were not aware of the casting. Once the effects begin go resolve, which is what would be apparent, they would do so -- and then an immediate action would take place, before any other actions the Slayer could take, barring a contingency spell. It seems a contingency spell functions much the same way, so as an example:

Slayer: Sneaks up to mage
Mage: Is unaware of Slayer's presence (for the purposes of this discussion)
Slayer: Prepares action to, 6 seconds after touching his belt, use Witch Slayer disjunction -- he has a contingency to activate disjunction 6 seconds afterward as well
Mage: Is still unaware of Slayer
Slayer: Contingency Mage's Disjunction activates 6 seconds after Slayer touches his belt
Slayer: Simultaneously activates disjunction on the mage
Mage: Immediate action to attempt to cast spell, but cannot

Am I understanding this correctly?

Edit:

Ah, I see that Spell Immunity, ironically, isn't helpful here. I also see a lot of argument that instantaneous spells can be cast in an AMF with no problem though. What is this all about?

If that turns fruitless, I am surely at a loss for what to do for that. :)

[ExLibrisMortis]

Immediate actions happen before the action that they were taken in response to, and disjunction doesn't affect spellcasting, so, no. You could, however, have a contingent antimagic field set to trigger when any other within 10' cast a spell, which would interrupt/happen before an immediate action.


Instantaneous spell effects are non-magical after the casting. That means fireball damage does not go away inside an antimagic field, and neither does a magically thrown rock lose its momentum. The really funky part comes when you start throwing orbs of force into an AMF, because it's so unclear what 'force' is in non-magical terms.

[ben-zayb]

Greater Spell Immunity AMF?

As an aside, I was wondering if you could explain this for me. I'm researching it, but it's a bit confusing.

As I look into immediate actions, it seems as though an immediate action would not precede the action that triggered it, which is to say, if a fighter throws his knife, you could not use an immediate action to cast a spell to make him fumble the knife; the knife has already been thrown. You could, however, immediate action to deflect the knife out of the air. This leads me to believe the mage could not interrupt the casting of disjunction so long as you were not aware of the casting. Once the effects begin go resolve, which is what would be apparent, they would do so -- and then an immediate action would take place, before any other actions the Slayer could take, barring a contingency spell. It seems a contingency spell functions much the same way, so as an example:

Slayer: Sneaks up to mage
Mage: Is unaware of Slayer's presence (for the purposes of this discussion)
Slayer: Prepares action to, 6 seconds after touching his belt, use Witch Slayer disjunction -- he has a contingency to activate disjunction 6 seconds afterward as well
Mage: Is still unaware of Slayer
Slayer: Contingency Mage's Disjunction activates 6 seconds after Slayer touches his belt
Slayer: Simultaneously activates disjunction on the mage
Mage: Immediate action to attempt to cast spell, but cannot

Am I understanding this correctly?AMF has SR: No, so spell immunity is useless.

About the readied action, I believe that was a dysfunction that negates almost every single usage of readied actions.

Just to close this part of the argument...Helmed Horror gives immunity to Disjunction

[Doctor Despair]

AMF has SR: No, so spell immunity is useless.

About the readied action, I believe that was a dysfunction that negates almost every single usage of readied actions.

Just to close this part of the argument...Helmed Horror gives immunity to Disjunction

Yes, I see that Spell Immunity is less than helpful. :/

What seems wrong about it?

I can't seem to find the creature, but it's specifically immune to Disjunction? D: That's quite overwhelming. That seems to defeat the entire purpose of disjunction. In that case, it seems the only thing such an invisible character could truly do would be to pull another mage out of the aforementioned bag of holding.

Regardless -- this character shouldn't be easily found if it doesn't specifically try to sneak up to mages, haha.

Edit: I suppose the only real thing for this Slayer to do is... have contingencied the casting of that selecting AMF itself, such that it activates immediately prior to entering an AMF and hope the other mage doesn't have Invoke Magic (of course he does), but at this point we're really talking about a much weaker mage that somehow manages to sneak up to a stronger mage and hopes to win. The disjunction/witch hunter was truly the only hope there, though a dimensional anchor/witch hunter trigger might make for an interesting fight -- in that one round. If this somehow managed to resolve, the mage would only have the contingent spells for that round, none of which could be teleports, and hopefully none of which are counterspells for the aforementioned dimensional anchor. They'd need to dispel or cancel anything preventing death by lethal damage as well, for which... Really a disjunction is only the thorough answer. Bleh. Not much to be done.

[ben-zayb]

Like readying a spear attack in response to a charge attack. Since both attack and movement counts as part of a charge, you have to make a melee attack against a creature from his starting charging position, before he/she moves as part of the charge.

Helmed Horror is from Lost Empires of Faerun and has Immunity to Magic Missile and three other spells of the creator's choice. It's not based on the Spell Immunity spell, so it simply gives exactly what it says: immunity.

Anyway, what is obvious here is that the Sneak is pretty much invisible to anyone outside casters using stinky cheese, and could easily wipe the floor against suboptimized casters or even highly optimized martial-types.

[Dgrin]

I already did. If Cerebral Blind worked less than a round, it'll be gone less than 6 seconds after getting it.

Instantaneous effects do not have the duration of 1 or more rounds but the result of those can persist forever. Permanent effects do not have the duration of 1 or more rounds but they're not gone in 6 seconds or less. Effects with Duration: Concentration may or may not be gone in less than 6 seconds but they do not have the duration of 1 or more rounds.Mindsight has no duration of 1 or more rounds listed.


Not really anything that differentiates You from Others, aside from how lines are drawn in the battlegrid, so I'm not sure if you are just seeing a specific quote that I am not seeing.

You are in your own square, so you always have LoS to yourself by the DMG reading, that's what I meant. Anyways, PHB says that you should be able to see or touch the target of your spell, so self-casting is actually covered.


It does specify what only is inherited, actually.Nothing about LoS. Whether you want to houserule something else is a different conversation.

No, it just elaborates on some similarities along with listing the differences. And I was not talking about houserules, don't try to devalue my words.


And, no, where did you get the silly notion that Telepathy is blocked by Mind Blank? It's not.

I possibly misremembered that part but it does not matter as it only was an example.


And it really isn't an effect unless we turn to RL usage of the word.

Which you failed to prove within the rules, just like I failed to prove the opposite. I guess that in absense of definite rule we have to agree to disagree.

@OP I guess we can conclude that this character can be detected with some high-OP tricks but you're good to go for most actual games.

[Âmesang]

Okay I don't know what 90% of all this means, but my first thought was; if it's muddy out, will he still leave tracks?

Might be useful to live in a snowy environment with some boots of the winterlands.

[ben-zayb]

Instantaneous effects do not have the duration of 1 or more rounds but the result of those can persist forever. Permanent effects do not have the duration of 1 or more rounds but they're not gone in 6 seconds or less. Effects with Duration: Concentration may or may not be gone in less than 6 seconds but they do not have the duration of 1 or more rounds.Mindsight has no duration of 1 or more rounds listed.Instantaneous magical effects can't be affected by AMF anymore, which contradicts how a Supernatural Ability works. Duration: Permanent and Duration: Concentration lasting more than round have...yes, durations of 1 round or more. To say otherwise seems deliberate disregard of RAW.


You are in your own square, so you always have LoS to yourself by the DMG reading, that's what I meant. Anyways, PHB says that you should be able to see or touch the target of your spell, so self-casting is actually covered.You are reading DMG wrong, then, because that's not what is written at all. True about the PHB though, and apparently it's also in a Rules of the Game article.

No, it just elaborates on some similarities along with listing the differences. And I was not talking about houserules, don't try to devalue my words.Citation needed. Otherwise, your argument really just has no leg to stand on, and is actually just that, bereft of value due to not following (and even assuming more outside of) what was explicitly specified by RAW.

Which you failed to prove within the rules, just like I failed to prove the opposite. I guess that in absense of definite rule we have to agree to disagree.Yup

@OP I guess we can conclude that this character can be detected with some high-OP tricks but you're good to go for most actual games.I have no idea what "most" you are basing this on, but I've yet to see an actual game in 10 years where a character is allowed to have an unbeatable (no ifs or buts) field of competency ever. And in this case, that would only happen in games containing a bigger fish with stinkier cheese, which seems to me isn't representative of "most". This thread seems to me to be a pure RAW exercise instead of a showcase of a playable character, just like many TO brainstormings are

[Doctor Despair]

Instantaneous magical effects can't be affected by AMF anymore, which contradicts how a Supernatural Ability works. Duration: Permanent and Duration: Concentration lasting more than round have...yes, durations of 1 round or more. To say otherwise seems deliberate disregard of RAW.

You are reading DMG wrong, then, because that's not what is written at all. True about the PHB though, and apparently it's also in a Rules of the Game article.
Citation needed. Otherwise, your argument really just has no leg to stand on, and is actually just that, bereft of value due to not following (and even assuming more outside of) what was explicitly specified by RAW.
Yup
I have no idea what "most" you are basing this on, but I've yet to see an actual game in 10 years where a character is allowed to have an unbeatable (no ifs or buts) field of competency ever. And in this case, that would only happen in games containing a bigger fish with stinkier cheese, which seems to me isn't representative of "most". This thread seems to me to be a pure RAW exercise instead of a showcase of a playable character, just like many TO brainstormings are

Yes, this character as it is is certainly a mess, haha. Purely by RAW, it would have to spec into psionics to be efficient and skip out on all those factotum and barbarian levels. I'd like to think the notes in this discussion have helped consolidate an idea of what, exactly, a character need do to actually attempt stealth at higher levels. The ultimate foils to this build archetype thusfar, barring DM fiat or insecure use of a wish spell, seem to be that it is foiled by:

antimagic fields (situational, but easily expected by a DM or opponent aware of your approach -- the best answer is probably to avoid them),

that use of higher-level psionics could yield vision of the magic auras carried by this character (ironically solved by removing magic items, but the lack of ghostform really hurts this build what with touchsight being an ability),

and the 9th level psionic power that knows everything about anyone (solved via a complicated mindrape-style answer, though perhaps better addressed by autohypnosis -- not that I am particularly versed in that skill).

Of course, depending on a frank discussion with your DM, you could evaluate what exactly you need do. If he feels psionics are overpowered, then perhaps you could ask that mind blank affect mindsight and instead spec into a cheater of mystra-style class to overcome antimagic. If psionics are open, then stealth becomes a heck of a lot harder to pull off.

Tentative conclusion: stealth can counter many of its obvious foils, but the books allow detection to win out every time providing someone is willing to specialize in it. Granted, this is without epic spells -- I am unfamiliar with the epic stealth seeds and how they function between psionic powers, magic sense, dweomervision, touchsight, mindsight, and so on.

[Doctor Despair]

Okay I don't know what 90% of all this means, but my first thought was; if it's muddy out, will he still leave tracks?

Might be useful to live in a snowy environment with some boots of the winterlands.

Sorry, Ame, I didn't see your comment there. Forest Gnome grants Pass Without a Trace, so tracking becomes a nonissue. :smallsmile:

[ben-zayb]

My preferred stealthy class would actually be Fiend of Possession from Fiend Folio because it covers plenty of things, so you might want to check it out.

It has Etherealness, that you can use to sneak in while inside terrain/object (LoE/LoS blocker), and Touchsight would not work unless it's transdimensional; default Telepathy also doesn't reach interplanar boundaries (there's a specific spell for that), so its range might also limit Mindsight.

It can possess, which means vision/hearing as a means of detection will likely be pointless against you. Even Touchsight is pointless, since it basically just detects the subject of your possession.

It has Hide Presence, which, if taken like dgrin's interpretation on Mindsight, becomes vastly more powerful than probably intended. Combine this with the Imp of Cania trick for a +NI stealth that bypasses most means of detecting you.

[Dgrin]

Last answer, I promise :smalltongue:


Instantaneous magical effects can't be affected by AMF anymore, which contradicts how a Supernatural Ability works. Duration: Permanent and Duration: Concentration lasting more than round have...yes, durations of 1 round or more. To say otherwise seems deliberate disregard of RAW.

You need not a duration of 1 round and more but a duration of 1 and more rounds. So any effect with a duration that cannot be expressed in rounds cannot be IHSed. Also I'd ask you to stop using expressions like "deliberate disregard of RAW", "You are wrong", "It is obvious" and such when you failed to prove that your reading of rules is more valid than mine. You are not right just because you said so. Just be polite to others, even if they disagree with you.


You are reading DMG wrong, then, because that's not what is written at all. True about the PHB though, and apparently it's also in a Rules of the Game article.

That is exactly what is written. The way to check if you have LoS is stated: by drawing a line from your square to the target. You can always do that with yourself. Anyways, that's not relevant to the argument.


Citation needed. Otherwise, your argument really just has no leg to stand on, and is actually just that, bereft of value due to not following (and even assuming more outside of) what was explicitly specified by RAW.

First of all, I already stated twice that I was not arguing that Mindsight requires LoE. Secondly, I am not sure myself if it does but I can easily return your "citation needed" to you. The only 2 parsings of the phrase "mostly similar to..." that make sense are either it inheriting all the qualities except for what is listed below or it meaning absolutely nothing and just being fluffy bit. Otherwise it is redundant. You either list how something works, or compare it with something else and provide differences. Comparing it with something and providing similarities below while meaning that it has no other similarities means that your comparison is useless.


I have no idea what "most" you are basing this on, but I've yet to see an actual game in 10 years where a character is allowed to have an unbeatable (no ifs or buts) field of competency ever. And in this case, that would only happen in games containing a bigger fish with stinkier cheese, which seems to me isn't representative of "most". This thread seems to me to be a pure RAW exercise instead of a showcase of a playable character, just like many TO brainstormings are

Maybe I did not make myself clear enough, english is not my native language. What I was saying is that most characters in actual games (other than, for example, Tippy's table and similar high-OP games) would be incapable of finding OP's character.


It has Hide Presence, which, if taken like dgrin's interpretation on Mindsight, becomes vastly more powerful than probably intended. Combine this with the Imp of Cania trick for a +NI stealth that bypasses most means of detecting you.

Wait, my interpretation of Mindsight is actually weaker that yours cause it can be bypassed by more things :smalltongue:

[ben-zayb]

You need not a duration of 1 round and more but a duration of 1 and more rounds. So any effect with a duration that cannot be expressed in rounds cannot be IHSed.But they can, actually: infinite rounds, and infinite rounds until concentration stops. A requirement of "Duration lasting 1 round or more" is different from "Duration lasting 1 round or more, and specifically stated only in rounds as the unit of time that isn't infinite", which is relevant when dealing with spells that instead lasts for minutes, hours, and other similar durations.

Also I'd ask you to stop using expressions like "deliberate disregard of RAW", "You are wrong", "It is obvious" and such when you failed to prove that your reading of rules is more valid than mine. You are not right just because you said so. Just be polite to others, even if they disagree with you.Nothing there is really meant as a personal attack, although I am sorry if it felt that way. "Deliberate" and "obvious" are more on the subjective side of things, and seemed like unnecessary comments on a RAW discussion.


That is exactly what is written. The way to check if you have LoS is stated: by drawing a line from your square to the target. You can always do that with yourself. Anyways, that's not relevant to the argument.The difference from another character, however, is irrelevant still within the context of Cerebral Blind. It's still an effect, just like from someone else's vision, and both are blocked by Cerebral Blind (which is supposedly blocking from your own square anyway), same square or not, assuming the earlier definition presented.


Secondly, I am not sure myself if it does but I can easily return your "citation needed" to you. The only 2 parsings of the phrase "mostly similar to..." that make sense are either it inheriting all the qualities except for what is listed below or it meaning absolutely nothing and just being fluffy bit. Otherwise it is redundant. You either list how something works, or compare it with something else and provide differences. Comparing it with something and providing similarities below while meaning that it has no other similarities means that your comparison is useless.Citation is the rules I quoted earlier. The feat only does what it says it does, and nothing more. It only works like it says it works, and nothing more. So from that, the 3rd (on more supported by already-written rules) is that Mindsight only inherits from Blindsense what it says it inherits, which is the capability to know the location despite not necessarily being able to see them exactly, and thus the total concealment. In a permission-based game in D&D, that would be the way to read it.



Maybe I did not make myself clear enough, english is not my native language. What I was saying is that most characters in actual games (other than, for example, Tippy's table and similar high-OP games) would be incapable of finding OP's character.Ah, I see. We are in agreement with this, actually, as I posted earlier.