confirmation on Improved Critical

[deathbymanga]

so, just a confirmation on how the rules work. If I have a Crossbow with a threat range of 19-20 and get Improved Critical, my Threat Range is now 17-20.

Which would also mean that a Kukri, Rapier, or Scimitar would have a threat range of 15-20, correct?

[nyjastul69]

Yes, you are correct. As an aside, this type of question is better suited for the stickied Simple RAW thread.

[deathbymanga]

Yes, you are correct. As an aside, this type of question is better suited for the stickied Simple RAW thread.

thanks. that's pretty rediculas really since if your game is using the stack-able-critical rule you have a 1/5 chance of a critical every confirmation. the inner min-maxer in me is now looking for something with an even better threat range

[nyjastul69]

Crit stacking in 3.5 is much different than in
3.0. In 3.5 crit stacking is very difficult. The rules don't really allow for it. Also, you need to actually hit a creature before threat range becomes relevant. For example, if you threaten on a 15-20 and the oppent has a 17 AC, you need to roll a modified 17 attack roll, anything less than that is a miss.

[Doctor Despair]

Look into Disciple of Dispater. You get a critical range of x3 that stacks with improved critical for x2; take lightning mace for additional shenanigans, rolling threats and extra attacks for days.

Alternatively, for more flavor, go warblade to get the Diamond Nightmare Blade ability for x4 damage, then take the Disciple for Dispator, Improved Critical, and a Falshion (range of 4-20, x2) or a scyth (14-20, x4). You only make one attack each round, but that attack does the same damage as all the other attacks, so you can afford to make judicious use of truestrike to confirm your critical strikes. Each attack does x8 or x16 damage, which can add up to quite a lot if you start stacking critical strike enhancements on your weapon. You'll want to pump strength a LOT as well and probably dip into power attack, since each point of to-hit sacrificed gets you 8 or 16 damage. You'll want adaptive style if you want to focus on this one-hit wonder attack, though, and you'll be able to do it once every other round. Overall, building around lightning mace should be more consistently effective, but DNB just looks so cool that it's hard to say no.

[nyjastul69]

Look into Disciple of Dispater. You get a critical range of x3 that stacks with improved critical for x2; take lightning mace for additional shenanigans, rolling threats and extra attacks for days.

Alternatively, for more flavor, go warblade to get the Diamond Nightmare Blade ability for x4 damage, then take the Disciple for Dispator, Improved Critical, and a Falshion (range of 4-20, x2) or a scyth (14-20, x4). You only make one attack each round, but that attack does the same damage as all the other attacks, so you can afford to make judicious use of truestrike to confirm your critical strikes. Each attack does x8 or x16 damage, which can add up to quite a lot if you start stacking critical strike enhancements on your weapon. You'll want to pump strength a LOT as well and probably dip into power attack, since each point of to-hit sacrificed gets you 8 or 16 damage. You'll want adaptive style if you want to focus on this one-hit wonder attack, though, and you'll be able to do it once every other round. Overall, building around lightning mace should be more consistently effective, but DNB just looks so cool that it's hard to say no.

Due note that Disciple of Dispater is a 3.0 class and your DM might modify that class as the 3.0 to 3.5 conversion document suggests.

[Doctor Despair]

Due note that Disciple of Dispater is a 3.0 class and your DM might modify that class as the 3.0 to 3.5 conversion document suggests.

That is a fair point, but I think it is a safe class to consider; it's hardly broken. Considering (at least that I can find) there's no other way to increase your critical range, and how many feats are involved in making this sort of thing effective, I don't think it would be unreasonable to keep the multiplier ability; even if you limited it to an additional x2, that still leaves us with a critical range of 12 with the falchon. Unless stated otherwise, though, I believe 3.0 materials are fair game for optimization and such on these boards, yes? In any event, I was neglectful not to mention it.

[Zetapup]

That is a fair point, but I think it is a safe class to consider; it's hardly broken. Considering (at least that I can find) there's no other way to increase your critical range, and how many feats are involved in making this sort of thing effective, I don't think it would be unreasonable to keep the multiplier ability; even if you limited it to an additional x2, that still leaves us with a critical range of 12 with the falchon. Unless stated otherwise, though, I believe 3.0 materials are fair game for optimization and such on these boards, yes? In any event, I was neglectful not to mention it.

Actually, there's three more ways to increase your crit range, from what I remember. There's a barbarian variant that gives +1 to crit range on charges (I believe it's at 7th level, but I could be wrong), the psychic weapon master (also 3.0 content. It gives you the improved critical feat for the bonded weapon, or if you already have the feat, +2 to the crit range of the weapon), and the mythic exemplar (pick sunyartra, you can increase your crit range by 1 for a limited time once per day. It explicitly stacks with other stuff).

Additionally, you can make your weapons out of kaorti to increase the critical multiplier to x4.

If you somehow combined all the crit range stacking stuff (gestalt with double prestige classes allowed, most likely), I believe you'd end up with a 1-20 crit range (assuming I'm doing my math correctly), aka you'd threaten a crit no matter what. However, it'd have to be on a charge while mythic exemplar's ability is active and using a weapon made of iron and crystal. Don't ask me how that works.

[nyjastul69]

Actually, there's three more ways to increase your crit range, from what I remember. There's a barbarian variant that gives +1 to crit range on charges (I believe it's at 7th level, but I could be wrong), the psychic weapon master (also 3.0 content. It gives you the improved critical feat for the bonded weapon, or if you already have the feat, +2 to the crit range of the weapon), and the mythic exemplar (pick sunyartra, you can increase your crit range by 1 for a limited time once per day. It explicitly stacks with other stuff).

Additionally, you can make your weapons out of kaorti to increase the critical multiplier to x4.

If you somehow combined all the crit range stacking stuff (gestalt with double prestige classes allowed, most likely), I believe you'd end up with a 1-20 crit range (assuming I'm doing my math correctly), aka you'd threaten a crit no matter what. However, it'd have to be on a charge while mythic exemplar's ability is active and using a weapon made of iron and crystal. Don't ask me how that works.

A 1-20 crit range is irrelevant, even if it can be obtained, as a 1 is always a miss. 2-20 is the best possible crit range. Regarding DoD, I wouldn't use a multiplying threat range if I were to convert the class, I would use an additive crit range. I might allow +3 to crit range, I wouldn't triple it though.

[deathbymanga]

A 1-20 crit range is irrelevant, even if it can be obtained, as a 1 is always a miss. 2-20 is the best possible crit range. Regarding DoD, I wouldn't use a multiplying threat range if I were to convert the class, I would use an additive crit range. I might allow +3 to crit range, I wouldn't triple it though.

you do realize an attack rool is beyond just your dice. BAB, Strength Mod, and general buffs.

[Quertus]

A 1-20 crit range is irrelevant, even if it can be obtained, as a 1 is always a miss. 2-20 is the best possible crit range.

Not on every world... And not if you're a god. You don't want to be the god of crits, and then just hit someone without threatening a crit - that would be embarrassing. ;)

[torrasque666]

you do realize an attack rool is beyond just your dice. BAB, Strength Mod, and general buffs.

Except that the rules clearly state that a natural 1 is an automatic miss, just like a natural 20 is an automatic hit.

[nyjastul69]

you do realize an attack rool is beyond just your dice. BAB, Strength Mod, and general buffs.

Yes. A natural one is still a miss.


Not on every world... And not if you're a god. You don't want to be the god of crits, and then just hit someone without threatening a crit - that would be embarrassing. ;)

Umm... Yeah, umm... I have no idea what you are speaking to or how it is relevant to the conversation. Can you please clarify your statement.

[Florian]

Yes. A natural one is still a miss.



Umm... Yeah, umm... I have no idea what you are speaking to or how it is relevant to the conversation. Can you please clarify your statement.

The moment you obtain the ability to ignore the auto-miss on a natural one, your statement changes.

[nyjastul69]

The moment you obtain the ability to ignore the auto-miss on a natural one, your statement changes.

How does one avoid automatically missing on a one?

[torrasque666]

How does one avoid automatically missing on a one?
Divine Rank of 1 or higher.

[nyjastul69]

Okay. That works. I'm looking for a serious answer though. Gods don't roll dice, they auto roll 20's. How does a character avoid automatically missing one a one when one is required to actually roll dice?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Okay. That works. I'm looking for a serious answer though. Gods don't roll dice, they auto roll 20's. How does a character avoid automatically missing one a one when one is required to actually roll dice?

1) Divine Rank 1 gods don't get automatic 20s.
2) The ones that do don't count those as natural 20s so they do not auto hit.

Other than that I have no clue how a character can avoid auto missing on a natural 1.

[nyjastul69]

1) Divine Rank 1 gods don't get automatic 20s.
2) The ones that do don't count those as natural 20s so they do not auto hit.

Other than that I have no clue how a character can avoid auto missing on a natural 1.

Right. Thanks for the correction. Only greater deities get the automatic 20. I never claimed they automatically hit though, just that they don't roll dice so they can't roll a 1. That only applies to DR's of 16+, as you pointed out.


Divine Rank of 1 or higher.

It seems a divine rank of 16 or higher is needed. I apologize for my lack of knowledge about deities. I didn't think 'just be a god' would be a serious answer.

[deathbymanga]

well, even a 2-20 threat ratio is pretty deadly. Having a BAB of +8, a +2 weapon and a +5 strength modifier means an attack roll of 17 on any 2, which means you're likely going to hit, ergo, you're likely going to get a critical hit

[Zetapup]

How does one avoid automatically missing on a one?

There's the luck feat (Better Lucky than Good, if I remember correctly) that lets you spend a swift action and a luck reroll once per day to treat it as a nat 20, and Choose Destiny, which lets you roll the d20 twice, but both of those get around the nat 1 thing by changing it. There's probably an ability somewhere that lets you ignore the automiss of 1s, but I have no idea where it'd be.

Adding lightning maces to the build would get amusing, especially since you could probably get away with using light maces instead of aptitude kukris or something similar while still having a substantial crit range.

[torrasque666]

It seems a divine rank of 16 or higher is needed. I apologize for my lack of knowledge about deities. I didn't think 'just be a god' would be a serious answer.
Nah mang, anyone with Divine Rank 1+ gets the ability to not auto miss on a nat 1.

Attacks
A deity’s Hit Dice and type and character level determine its base attack bonus. In addition to the figures for weapon attacks, this section of the statistics block also includes melee touch attack and ranged touch attack bonuses, to be used when the deity casts a spell or uses a spell-like ability that requires a touch attack to affect its target. A deity gets its divine rank as a divine bonus on all attack rolls. Deities of rank 1 or higher do not automatically fail on a natural attack roll of 1.

what they are referring to is the "Always Maximize Roll" ability with the whole "never need to roll dice" thing.

Always Maximize Roll
Greater deities (rank 16-20) automatically get the best result possible on any check, saving throw, attack roll, or damage roll. Calculate success, failure, or other effects accordingly. When a greater deity makes a check, attack, or save assume a 20 was rolled and calculate success or failure from there. A d20 should still be rolled and used to check for a threat of a critical hit. This quality means that greater deities never need the Maximize Spell feat, because their spells have maximum effect already.

Though according to that, they do in fact get to treat it as a natural 20 for attack rolls, they just need to then roll to confirm crits.

[Vhaidara]

well, even a 2-20 threat ratio is pretty deadly. Having a BAB of +8, a +2 weapon and a +5 strength modifier means an attack roll of 17 on any 2, which means you're likely going to hit, ergo, you're likely going to get a critical hit

Um... 17 can miss pretty low level characters. A guy in fullplate with a heavy steel shield and a 10 Dex has a 20 AC.

Add on +1 armor, +1 amulet of natural armor, a 12 dex, and a +1 Ring of Protection, and you've got 24