Making Spring Attack/Shot on the Run worthwhile

[Eladrinblade]

In core, it's kinda hard to guess what the creators intended uses of these feats were. I mean, okay, cover/attack/cover, sure, but as everybody knows, this is rarely worth it.

So, what if they allowed you to combine a move with a full attack? Making the attacks at any point after the first 5ft of movement?

[GilesTheCleric]

I think most folks opt to pick up pounce through any number of means for that very reason: charging and full attacking is more efficient.

[Eladrinblade]

But what about things that aren't cheesy?

[GilesTheCleric]

I don't really see pounce as cheesy (because mundanes need more nice things), but I understand if that's your view. However, Spring Attack is very difficult to make worthwhile, even if it granted additional movement options, because it has a long feat chain and ability score requirements.

[Bronk]

But what about things that aren't cheesy?

I'm not seeing how the various pounces are any more or less cheesy than what you're suggesting. Both are just ways of moving and still getting more attacks.

Although, there is an archery feat out there that lets you shoot through a number of people in a line. Maybe you're looking for a melee version of that?

[Doctor Despair]

Although, there is an archery feat out there that lets you shoot through a number of people in a line. Maybe you're looking for a melee version of that?

Makes me think of a War Hulk with Spring Attack. Legal, but very, very silly -- and unnecessarily weak, haha.

As for the moving and attack -- it seems to have found a home with sniping and sneak attacking (mostly sniping). A DM of mine houseruled that you could charge and spring attack so long as you did not exceed your normal movement (illegal, naturally), but perhaps that could give you the oomph you seem to want with this feat chain?

[Florian]

In core, it's kinda hard to guess what the creators intended uses of these feats were. I mean, okay, cover/attack/cover, sure, but as everybody knows, this is rarely worth it.

So, what if they allowed you to combine a move with a full attack? Making the attacks at any point after the first 5ft of movement?

Remember what the original motto of 3E was: "Back to the Dungeon!".

Feats like Spring Attack and the cover/attack/cover routine were thought to be good for rogues as they have the chance to re-stealth behind cover, so having a quasi-reliable way to sneak attack every round when no flanking buddy is at hand. Naturally, all of that only works in very small and confined spaces, i.e. a dungeon.

[nedz]

I have seen them used, on a Scout, and they were occasionally effective — he had Boots of some kind (Skirmish IIRC) which allowed extra attacks, and it was a low tier group. It did eat a lot of feats though. There are ways of getting more attacks through (more) feats but these also have a fairly high BAB requirement too.

Pounce, through various means, is more useful for most characters but chargers have their own issues.

[Necroticplague]

Remember what the original motto of 3E was: "Back to the Dungeon!".

Feats like Spring Attack and the cover/attack/cover routine were thought to be good for rogues as they have the chance to re-stealth behind cover, so having a quasi-reliable way to sneak attack every round when no flanking buddy is at hand. Naturally, all of that only works in very small and confined spaces, i.e. a dungeon.

Except the rules for stealth don't really allow for this, due to the rules for stealth. If you tried this, you'd be observed, and thus inapplicable to make a Hide check. not to mention that you'd lose the stealth once you come out of hiding (and thus lose your cover or concealment, which you need for stealth). It's a bit more likely that it's another textbook example of vastly overestimating the power of at-will abilities.

[Eladrinblade]

If you tried this, you'd be observed, and thus inapplicable to make a Hide check.

You aren't observed if you slip back behind total cover.


not to mention that you'd lose the stealth once you come out of hiding (and thus lose your cover or concealment, which you need for stealth).

unless there is cover or concealment present

[WhamBamSam]

Spring Attack is pretty good if you allow any standard action instead of just a normal attack. Flyby Attack is basically Spring Attack++ if you can qualify for it.

[ace rooster]

I assume the creators did not foresee the "kill it in one round" mentality that generally occurs, and so created options that work assuming combat will last a while. For example, fighter vs large dragon. Lets assume that the fighter has no winning ranged options, and we are in a fairly confined space (to avoid the dragon just kiting him). The fighter's only option is charge (taking a AoO or tumbling), hope it dies, and then get full attacked in return. Those 6 attacks are going to hurt. Next round the fighter might get an extra attack at full BAB from haste, but the rest of his attacks are not going to be nearly as effective. Alternatively he can attack and then retreat, at which point the dragon resumes breathing on him. Spring attack can deny both sides their iteratives, which will sometimes be a net win. Rideby attack works better, but is more niche, vulnerable to losing your mount, and requires charges which in confined spaces may not be possible.

Rogues work similarly, but slightly differently. If we assume a rogue fighter combo, and a single non agile smart monster (ie, can't just tumble round the fighter), then spring attack makes it much harder for the monster to preferentially attack the rogue. In some confined circumstances it can be made impossible without either readying or attempts at squeezing past. Throw in some obscuring mist and even ranged support will have to ready to attack the rogue, at which point the fighter uses the fact that speaking is free, and the rogue takes the opportunity to do something else, (ie, potion of invisibilty, then go gank a squishie).

The problem with the feats is that the game is generally played less tactically nuanced, and more SoS builds that make rocket tag a feature. Disclaimer: Not a criticism of the game, just how I believe the creators expected it to work.