Is Belkar Two for Two?

[Faramir]

It could be argued that Belkar caused Roy's death by giving him the Ring of Jumping.

It could also be argued that he was the one who caused Miko's fall (her frustration at being unable to kill him was taken out on Lord Shojo which was the act that precipated her fall). If she hadn't fallen she wouldn't have destroyed the gate in an attempt to redeem herself, thereby killing herself. Of course she might have died anyway in the battle, but the prophecy was only that he caused the death, not that he prevented a potential other means of death.

[jindra34]

The second one is too much of a strech... so no.

[Gavin Sage]

No because it implies Miko is not responsible for her own actions. She fell more because of her assumption the entire OOTS was evil, which is somewhat helped by Belkar but far more my Xykon not only being alive but implying (to her mind) that they work with/for him. Which was extended to Shojo via more flawed assumptions, hence his death, hence his fall, hence her own circumstances of death. If our murderous halfing hadn't been there it would have matter little.

Where with Roy there was material assistance changing what Roy would not normally have been able to do.

[Kurald Galain]

And of course, what we haven't seen in the comic yet is that one of the goblins that Belkar toasted with his Eye was engaged to the Oracle, who will now be overwhelmed by grief and commit suicide. That's three down, and note that we haven't seen Vaarsuvius lately...

[Admiral_Kelly]

I would say no to both. They are both stretches; I would say that Belkar's involvement would have to be more direct.

[Porthos]

If we're going to say that Belkar caused Miko's death, then why not go all the way and say the following:
Roy caused Miko's death: After all, her character radically shifted after he rejected her.
Lord Shojo caused Miko's death: By sending her on long missions instead of getting help for her, when it was obvious to everybody involved that she was a tad unhinged. Especially when you consider that the long missions further unhinged her.
Xykon caused Miko's death: If Xykon hadn't attacked Azure City, then she wouldn't have to had to destroy the Gem.
O-Chul caused Miko's death: O'Chul, being frozen in his attempt to destroy the Gem, gave Miko the very idea of destroying the Gate. If O'Chul hadn't decided to destroy the Gem, Miko certainly never would have thought og the same plan.
Lord Soon caused Miko's death: Hey, he founded the Sapphire Guard, didn't he? Without a Sapphire Guard, then Miko never would have become a Paladin.

And so on, and so on, and so on. :smalltongue:

Look, if you squint your eyes really closely you might kinda-sorta see how Belkar caused Roy's death. But Miko? Nahhhhhhh. :smallsmile: She was the architect of her own destruction.

[Takezo]

It is a bit of a stretch.

Besides, the self proclaimed "sexy shoeless god of war" would himself argue that he needed to stab her for it to count. Well...he'd probably argue that he needed to stab her for it to be more fun but...meh...whichever.

[squidthingy]

the ring of jumping didn't cause roy's death, falling off the dragon caused roy's death, let's say belkar didn't give the ring to roy than roy and all of the Oots would have gone to the throne room and died from the paladins and the bouncing ball of insanity. so if belkar caused roy's death than he also saved his own, haley's, elan's, durkon's, hinjo's, and argent's lives

[squidthingy]

and miko caused her own death *period*

[RobbyPants]

It could be argued that Belkar caused Roy's death by giving him the Ring of Jumping.

It could also be argued that he was the one who caused Miko's fall (her frustration at being unable to kill him was taken out on Lord Shojo which was the act that precipated her fall). If she hadn't fallen she wouldn't have destroyed the gate in an attempt to redeem herself, thereby killing herself. Of course she might have died anyway in the battle, but the prophecy was only that he caused the death, not that he prevented a potential other means of death.
I have to agree with jindra43 and Gavin_Sage. You can make almost anyone in this comic responsible for either of their deaths, if you're willing to stretch it far enough. You could just as easily blame the Flumphs or Elan for Roy's death (although I wouldn't :smalltongue:).

[fruityjanitor]

The second one is definitely too much of a stretch.

I think the first one is right on, and very likely will be the only fulfillment of Belkar's prophecy that we will ever see. I can't really imagine the prophecy happening any other way. Here is Belkar's list and the reasons why I don't think he could kill them after now.


- Roy: He is dead now but will almost certainly be brought back to life. However, it is unlikely he will die again since that would be repetitive. I suppose it is possible he could die during/after the final battle. However, I really doubt Belkar would be the one to kill him in that situtation since he usually doesn't think about killing his allies when there are tons of enemies to slaughter (unless Xykon convinces Belkar to join his side or the enemy uses some mind-controlling spell on Belkar...)

- Miko: Currently dead and it is quite likely she won't be back since her death felt like it had so much finality to it. It is possible that she comes back, but I kind of doubt it.

- Windstriker: Now that Miko is fallen and dead, the only way he can be summoned away from the Celestial Planes is if another paladin gets him as a mount. It is possible that the Order runs into some random paladin who rides Windstriker and that Belkar kills him, but it probably wouldn't be relevant to the plot. It seems that everyone else's prophecy has been (or will be) important to the plot so I doubt Belkar's would be fulfilled in such a random way.

- Oracle: We will probably never see him again since having another "Visit the Oracle" quest would feel very redundant. Also, if they do ever return to visit him, there is no way the Order would let Belkar kill him. I can see it happening two ways, and both seem very unlikely to me. 1) It turns out the Oracle is a villain and the Order has to go back and kill him or 2) (This way is an indirect way) Some powerful being (like a dragon) is going to hide from the Order (or hide something from them) and Belkar comments, "Guess we'll just have to go ask the Oracle where it is" so the being goes and kills the oracle.

- Vaarsuvius: He has to attain ultimate power and I can't see Belkar killing him after he does that. I suppose this could be solved 3 ways. 1) Belkar kills him, then he gets rezzed and gets ultimate power later (unlikely since that would seem repetetive after Roy getting killed and [probably] rezzed). 2) Belkar kills V and he obtains ultimate power while dead (kind of like Black Mage in 8-bit theater during the Lich fight). Or 3) V gets ultimate power but becomes evil in the process and Belkar does something crazy that lets him kill him (kind of like unarmed Roy chucking Xykon into the gate).


However, I suppose this is all just speculation on my part and there are many ways that any of these could be accomplished. We won't know for sure whether Belkar fulfilled his prophecy when he killed Roy until the end of the series.

However, I'm not holding my breath to see Belkar kill anyone else on his list after this...

[Bilgore]

The second one is definitely too much of a stretch.

I think the first one is right on, and very likely will be the only fulfillment of Belkar's prophecy that we will ever see. I can't really imagine the prophecy happening any other way. Here is Belkar's list and the reasons why I don't think he could kill them after now.

I think the most compelling reason to believe Roy's death fulfills the prophecy is what happens whenever (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0042.html) Belkar gets what he wished for (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html)

[Aquillion]

Besides, the self proclaimed "sexy shoeless god of war" would himself argue that he needed to stab her for it to count. Well...he'd probably argue that he needed to stab her for it to be more fun but...meh...whichever.The problem with that is that Belkar's question was specifically worded to be extremely loose and all-encompassing ("cause the death"). I don't think, from a narrative standpoint, that it would've been worded that way if he actually got to kill any of those people personally...

I think it was made about as obvious as it could have been, short of stopping the story to hold up a big neon sign, that Belkar satisfied his prophecy when he gave Roy the ring of jumping. But it's fun to joke about other things.

[David Demola]

You are all wrong. The Mexican-looking Lawyer caused Miko's death...

(ya'll ready for this? Dundundun dun dun dundundun, HEY! Dun dun dundundun, Hey!)

By legally preventing Belkar from attacking Miko's horse, he served to further frustrate Belkar to the point that he would be hell-bent on getting revenge on Miko. Thus he caused her downfall and thus she broke the gem and thus she lay, split in twain, about to be sent to the nether-regions.

Yes, I am kidding.

~Dave

[jamroar]

The problem with that is that Belkar's question was specifically worded to be extremely loose and all-encompassing ("cause the death"). I don't think, from a narrative standpoint, that it would've been worded that way if he actually got to kill any of those people personally...

I think it was made about as obvious as it could have been, short of stopping the story to hold up a big neon sign, that Belkar satisfied his prophecy when he gave Roy the ring of jumping. But it's fun to joke about other things.

But it's more fun (and keeps the suspense going) if he gets to cause the death of _all_ of the people on the list, but in indirect and entirely unsatisfying ways. Either that, or everyone except the Oracle, and then Belkar heads back to the valley in the epilogue to kill the Oracle for the utterly lame fulfilment of his prophecy.

[mushoku]

I have to agree with jindra43 and Gavin_Sage. You can make almost anyone in this comic responsible for either of their deaths, if you're willing to stretch it far enough. You could just as easily blame the Flumphs or Elan for Roy's death (although I wouldn't :smalltongue:).
I blame you, RobbyPants! It's because of you that the artist created this comic! You, the fan, who represents all of us! If it weren't for you, none of it would ever have happened and none of the characters would have been created into their violent existence!

Don't feel burdened, though. It happens.

[Payne]

To me it is clear Belkar allowed Roy to face a challenge he was not ready for "I'm, what, 7 levels higher than you! Height?"
As a PC party leader, lawful good nonetheless, there was no way he would not take Belkar's ring an, basically die doing the hero thing (which BTW Belkar knew, expected and kinda bet on!:smallamused: ).

Miko, I also felt was a stretch. Now, not so much.

He knew she was obsessed with knowing his alignment, he kept harming her, taunting her: an already unstable women willing to jump into a dragon's mouth for her beliefs.
Beliefs and codes Belkar was eager to use so that she would go over the edge and get herself into trouble.
He was very much willing to increase Miko's misconception of the OOTS as evil so she would embarass herself and show her for the paranoid nutcase she truly was.

Opinions may differ, but for me it seems the Giant will have Belkar cause the death (albeith indirectly) of all the characters mentioned in his prophecy.

Actually, I'm surprised I havent heard anyone put this theory on the table yet.

[Forevergrey]

self proclaimed "sexy shoeless god of war"

Self proclaimed.

Public approved.

[CliveStaples]

Belkar didn't cause Roy's death, nor Miko's downfall.

As to Roy: Roy was willing to engage in the fight with Xykon; Belkar didn't force him to. He merely gave him an avenue to achieve that fight--there were many other avenues available, given the number of accessible magicians.

As to Miko: If Belkar caused her downfall, Atonement would have been a very simple, streamlined cast. Her conversation on her deathbed disproves that.

[Hel65]

Hey, I see a lot of people argue that you could say that if Belkar caused Roy's, s o did someone, and someone, and someone else. Yeah, but that's not the point.
The point is, this qualifies as a fullfilment of a prophecy of one nasty kobold oracle who likes to screw with people he gives their answers.

So yes, I think Belkar is two for two.

[David Argall]

Saying Belkar caused the death of Miko is essentially saying he has caused the deaths of everyone who has died since his birth. That would be technically true [He has also "caused" the birth of about everyone born since his birth.], and it may be precisely what the prophecy means [The prophet still defends his "answer" to Roy's earlier question.], but for any moral purpose, we have to call Belkar not guilty, and we have no reason to think Belkar would disagree that he doesn't get the "credit".

With Roy, Belkar has a much better case. He knew his offer of the ring would provoke Roy into a highly dangerous situation. He has a variety of "defenses", but it is not an extreme stretch of his moral responsibility to say he caused the death of Roy.

[RobbyPants]

I blame you, RobbyPants! It's because of you that the artist created this comic! You, the fan, who represents all of us! If it weren't for you, none of it would ever have happened and none of the characters would have been created into their violent existence!

Don't feel burdened, though. It happens.
I guess you're right. Don't worry. I feel honored to be the cause of Miko's death. My only regret is that I didn't get around to it 264 comics sooner...

[Dimitri]

I'd call it three for three. Or did you forget about Windstriker?

[jamroar]

I'd call it three for three. Or did you forget about Windstriker?

Windstriker isn't dead (yet), he's just stuck on his home plane.

[Jayabalard]

If we're going to say that Belkar caused Miko's death, then why not go all the way and say the following:
Roy caused Miko's death: After all, her character radically shifted after he rejected her.
Lord Shojo caused Miko's death: By sending her on long missions instead of getting help for her, when it was obvious to everybody involved that she was a tad unhinged. Especially when you consider that the long missions further unhinged her.
Xykon caused Miko's death: If Xykon hadn't attacked Azure City, then she wouldn't have to had to destroy the Gem.
O-Chul caused Miko's death: O'Chul, being frozen in his attempt to destroy the Gem, gave Miko the very idea of destroying the Gate. If O'Chul hadn't decided to destroy the Gem, Miko certainly never would have thought og the same plan.
Lord Soon caused Miko's death: Hey, he founded the Sapphire Guard, didn't he? Without a Sapphire Guard, then Miko never would have become a Paladin.

And so on, and so on, and so on. :smalltongue:

Look, if you squint your eyes really closely you might kinda-sorta see how Belkar caused Roy's death. But Miko? Nahhhhhhh. :smallsmile: She was the architect of her own destruction.None of those people asked the oracle whether they would get to cause Miko's death, did they? So I'm not sure what your point is.

the question isn't "Is belkar beyond a shadow of a doubt solely responsible for the death of Miko" ... Belkar's question to the oracle wasn't specific, nor is the oracle known for giving useful answers if he can avoid it.

[Porthos]

None of those people asked the oracle whether they would get to cause Miko's death, did they? So I'm not sure what your point is.

the question isn't "Is belkar beyond a shadow of a doubt solely responsible for the death of Miko" ... Belkar's question to the oracle wasn't specific, nor is the oracle known for giving useful answers if he can avoid it.

My point is that, if you really try hard enough, you would be able to say that Belkar killed anybody who dies in the strip. I can barely accept the Belkar/Roy connection. But Belkar/Miko??? Not a chance. You have to fly through too many hoops to justify it.

I know we all love to get uber-complicated theories here, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. :smallsmile: The only person responsible for Miko's death is Miko herself.

So far the Oracle's predictions have been pretty straight forward:
Two of you are running late for a pair of family reunions: Roy meeting up with Julia, Elan meeting up with Nale.
Haley's Prophecy: When the Gift Horse comes calling, don't look it in the mouth: When Nale (the Trojan Horse) came calling, she didn't turn down the offer.

The other Prophecies seemed to be fairly straight forward as well (Elan's happy ending - Giriard's Gate - Posthumously, Belkar's going to die, etc). So, sorry, but I don't the Belkar caused the death of Miko theory. Maybe if he had said, "Hey toots, you know what would be a great idea - leaving the Sapphire Gem alone," and Miko replied, "What, you think I should leave the Gem alone!!!! You are Evil and I must do the opposite of what you say! I must smash the Gem now!"

Then you could say that Belkar caused Miko's death. In this case? Not so much. :smalltongue:

[kimana]

I think the simplest answer is:
"Will Belkar take credit for causing their deaths and feel the prophecy is fulfilled?"
If the answer to that is yes, then he fulfilled it for each one he takes credit for. If no, then it remains unfulfilled. :smalltongue:
It seems the sort of logic the oracle might use, at least to me.

[fangthane]

The flumpfs caused Miko's death. If they hadn't cushioned the blow back in Dorukan's Dungeon, the remaining members of the OotS wouldn't have remained cohesive long enough to have caused the chain of events leading to her Fall and eventual demise. :)

Sir Francois caused Miko's death. If he hadn't ditched Elan, the party would have been short. If not for Elan's presence in the party, Nale would have had a numerical advantage in Dorukan's Dungeon, and would have been better able to press that advantage after the amulet was acquired.

I'm still working on whether we can blame the dirt farmers or the adolescent goblins, but I'm pretty sure I could work something out...

[TheMeanDM]

Could someone refresh my memory...

What were the various "prophecies" again?

[UncredibleHallq]

I'm actually inclined to take the contrary view to kimana: Belkar will be frustrated to find out that his wording the his question allowed for indirect fulfillment. This joke will only get funnier if he indirectly causes the deaths of all five people, though I'm not sure how this will happen. We've established beyond all doubt that the oracle will give usesless answers to badly-worded questions.

Maybe Belkar doesn't deserve to be held responsible for Roy's death--maybe. But if not for Belkar, Roy couldn't have died in the way he did. Maybe Roy would have died in the throne room encounter, but maybe not. He might have simply ended up badly wounded or paralyzed or some such. Also, both Haley and the ninja/assasin/whatever guy thought Roy's move was crazy, so there's a very good chance Belkar realized the same. In that case, Belkar would bear significant responsibility for Roy's death. In any case, I think it counts for prophecy purposes. We must recognize that the key issue is the prophecy, not moral responsibility.

As for Miko... no. Unless Rich indicates this was his intention later on, probably by giving Belkar a significant role in the deaths of all of the remaining three. If Miko's death is to be blamed on anyone but her self (and I'm not concerned with arguing the "if" at the moment), then it's Shojo. He's the one who intially told her the Order of the Stick needed to be punished, and he's the one who rigged the trial. Miko was pushed over the edge by finding out that the trial was rigged. Belkar's attempts to push Miko over the edge did not bring the immediate success he was hoping for, but he did help convince her that the OotS was evil.

[DrivinAllNight]

So far the Oracle's predictions have been pretty straight forward:
Two of you are running late for a pair of family reunions: Roy meeting up with Julia, Elan meeting up with Nale.
Haley's Prophecy: When the Gift Horse comes calling, don't look it in the mouth: When Nale (the Trojan Horse) came calling, she didn't turn down the offer.


I understood the first one, but I never got the second one till now, I wasn't looking for the second one, but now that you've explained it I wonder why I never realized it before.

And to keep with the forum, NO, belkar did not cause Miko's death, it was far to indirect. With belkar and Roy I can kinda see it being somewhat direct, after all, Belkar knew Roy didn't stand much of a chance with Xykon, after all, Roy hadn't killed him before, and now it was a bet with someone else as to how close to death he could get Roy.

[The Familiar]

My point is that, if you really try hard enough, you would be able to say that Belkar killed anybody who dies in the strip. I can barely accept the Belkar/Roy connection. But Belkar/Miko??? Not a chance. You have to fly through too many hoops to justify it.

I know we all love to get uber-complicated theories here, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. :smallsmile: The only person responsible for Miko's death is Miko herself.

So far the Oracle's predictions have been pretty straight forward:
Two of you are running late for a pair of family reunions: Roy meeting up with Julia, Elan meeting up with Nale.
Haley's Prophecy: When the Gift Horse comes calling, don't look it in the mouth: When Nale (the Trojan Horse) came calling, she didn't turn down the offer.

And here I thought the Gift Horse was Elan himself: a Noble Steed (loyal, charismatic, heroic and even sensitive) with a few bad teeth (he's an idiot).

Otherwise, I couldn't agree more. :smallsmile:

[Porthos]

And here I thought the Gift Horse was Elan himself: a Noble Steed (loyal, charismatic, heroic and even sensitive) with a few bad teeth (he's an idiot).

Otherwise, I couldn't agree more. :smallsmile:

Heh. :smallsmile: I based it on the phrase: "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth." [While the phrase doesn't describe the Trojan Horse situation (indeed it's a saying about checking the age of the horse via it's teeth), there has been some cross-contamination with the ideas. In the cross-contamination idea, people who looked the Trojan Horse in the mouth got killed early by the hiding soldiers.]

Anyway, the whole idea of the Gift Horse, is that you should accept an unexpected gift at face value and not look for any hidden meanings or faults. Hence in this case, by not looking at the faults/problems of "Elan"'s proposal, Haley got her speech back. :smallsmile:

[mockingbyrd7]

To me it is clear Belkar allowed Roy to face a challenge he was not ready for "I'm, what, 7 levels higher than you! Height?"
As a PC party leader, lawful good nonetheless, there was no way he would not take Belkar's ring an, basically die doing the hero thing (which BTW Belkar knew, expected and kinda bet on!:smallamused: ).

Miko, I also felt was a stretch. Now, not so much.

He knew she was obsessed with knowing his alignment, he kept harming her, taunting her: an already unstable women willing to jump into a dragon's mouth for her beliefs.
Beliefs and codes Belkar was eager to use so that she would go over the edge and get herself into trouble.
He was very much willing to increase Miko's misconception of the OOTS as evil so she would embarass herself and show her for the paranoid nutcase she truly was.

Opinions may differ, but for me it seems the Giant will have Belkar cause the death (albeith indirectly) of all the characters mentioned in his prophecy.

Actually, I'm surprised I havent heard anyone put this theory on the table yet.

Very nice, I agree. (AWESOME! sigatar by the way! seriously, that's awesome.)

[mockingbyrd7]

Could someone refresh my memory...

What were the various "prophecies" again?

Strip 331 is the strip with the prophecies.