Beginner Gestalt Duo Team

[basicedgar]

Me and my brother are fairly new to D&D and we plan on running a duo campaign, alternating between DM, for basically 1 man missions.
Mostly to get used to the feel.

Now i get this is a heady proposition, but we plan on playing Gestalt so we aren't completely underwhelming.

Now neither of us have strong building abilities, but we want to be as optimized as possible for the cheese.

We want our characters to be fairly survivable solo, but to also jive as a pair.

My plans are to make a wizard/rogue fellow with Spellwarp Sniper as the goal.

My brother wants to be a "jedi" type character, he's torn between monk/sorc and palading/psionic, i know neither are the most amazing buttt...


Every source is available, but Pathfinder will be the spine of our rules.

Any help on how to flesh out these builds would be amazing.

Thank you!

[Florian]

Gestalt tends to suffer from a bad Economy of Actions.
You should be classes that have a natural way around this.
- Either full Gishs, meaning Fight and Cast at the same time.
- Companions.

Three good combinations would be: Hunter/Warpriest. Magus(Kensai)/Wizard-Magaambyan Archaist. Paladin(or Bloodrager)/Summoner.

[Jack_Simth]

Other options:
Druid (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid)//Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk) (animal companion, wildshape, spells, flurry, Wis-SAD, full casting)

Oracle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle)//Paladin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin) (Full BAB, Charisma to saves, full casting, heavy armor proficiency). Careful selection of mystery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle#TOC-Mystery), Revelation, Curse (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/oracle-curses), and archetypes can also get you selectable Wizard spells and an animal companion (Say... Lunar Mystery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/lunar-mystery): Primal Companion for an animal companion, the Spirit Guide Archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/archetypes/paizo---oracle-archetypes/spirit-guide) to pick up the Lore Spirit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/shaman/spirits/lore) for the Arcane Enlightenment hex to pick up an assortment of Wizard spells, with maybe the Forsaken curse for the self-revival or the Feral curse for wild shape). Lay on Hands gives you reasonable amounts of healing - and something to do with your swift actions - and opens up the Ultimate Mercy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/ultimate-mercy) feat for cheap resurrection of your fellow party member and your animal companions.

Druid (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid)//Rogue (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue) (a little MAD, but stacking Sneak Attack on top of multiple attacks from Wildshape means most things get dead quickly... also gives trapfinding).

[basicedgar]

I appreciate the relies, and it's been helpful.
My brothers build will probably lean towards the oracle paladin combo.

My desire for wizard/rogue is a lot thematic, and I believe Spellwarp Sniper makes this viable, but I'm at a loss for a way an optimal way to flesh this build out, I'm not sure how deep into rogue I should go for sneak attack bonuses.

I'm not sure if I should go full 20 rogue, and primary wizard and just dip into Spellwarp.

But If this build isn't super viable, some sort of sneak attack Mage is my goal.

[Getsugaru]

Do you intend to use any content from 3.5? If you do, there are a few choices available to bards that improve an already good synergy. In my experience, Bard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard)//Ninja (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja) is a pretty good combination; even better if you can have Bardic Music be per day instead of per round like it is in 3.5. Even more better if you can replace Bardic Knowledge with Bardic Knack. Best results if you also add in Savage Bard from Unearthed Arcana to get perfect saves through the gestalt. Even without those, however, Bard synergizes well with Ninja rather well. As Ninja is just Rogue with different class abilities, it works with Bard just as well as rogue does. The only downside is if you run into problems that need 7th or higher level spells, but otherwise you can usually skill-monkey your way around problems. You get a wide variety of weapon proficiencies, many of which are classified as exotic weapons. A useful spell pool is available alongside a Ki pool that has some rather useful abilities, and all in all, I find that the two classes work well together no matter the situation. (What's that you say? "Bards are noisy and Ninja are silent?" Not if your perform is dance; then you get to dance with death as your partner! :smallamused:).

[Jack_Simth]

I appreciate the relies, and it's been helpful.
My brothers build will probably lean towards the oracle paladin combo.

My desire for wizard/rogue is a lot thematic, and I believe Spellwarp Sniper makes this viable, but I'm at a loss for a way an optimal way to flesh this build out, I'm not sure how deep into rogue I should go for sneak attack bonuses.

I'm not sure if I should go full 20 rogue, and primary wizard and just dip into Spellwarp.

But If this build isn't super viable, some sort of sneak attack Mage is my goal.

It's a Wizard, so it's viable if you know how to play a Wizard in a highly optimal manner.

However: The reason I didn't suggest Wizard in one single build suggestion, and ALL of them had an animal companion:
Florian's right. With just two characters, you've got action economy problems. Yes, a Wizard can indeed overcome this... but it takes a fair amount of skill to do properly, can have some pretty hefty level requirements, and is often viewed as too optimal for many gaming tables. An animal companion, on the other hand, is fairly straightforward, and is a disposable meatshield (as is a Summoner's Eidolon).

Having both yours and your friend's characters come with built-in disposable meatshields greatly helps with action economy issues, as long as your disposable meatshields don't have much of an action cost (animal companions are a good choice because they have a lot support in terms of feats such as Distant Spell Link (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/distant-spell-link) or Improved Share Spells (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/improved-share-spells)). You both have your meatshields attack the enemies directly while the two of you cast spells to buff your companions, control the battlefield and cut opposing groups into bite-sized encounters, to take down the enemy directly, or to debuff the enemy.

With a party of two, you'll really want the extra buffer zone of a disposable meatshield. You can get that disposable meatshield with a Druid, Summoner, Oracle (with the right revelations), Cleric (with the right domains), and probably a few other ways. When you don't have something that gets the meatshield easily in your build, it's a lot harder. That Wizard//Rogue... doesn't get it easily (Charm, Dominate, Simulacrum, Planar Binding, and a few other methods can get such... but those either don't last long (charm person is an hour/level) require higher levels (charm monster is Sor/Wiz 4), are expensive (Simulacrum has a hefty GP cost) or some mix). Most the options I'm listing can have a disposable meatshield from level 1, as an Ex class feature.

Oh yes, and there's a bit of a problem with Spellwarp Sniper: It's a dual-progression class (sneak attack and casting). The gestalt rules suggest not permitting such.

A sneak attack caster? Great goal! Here's two builds that will do it and can still handle the action economy concerns well:
Druid//Ninja (Complete Arcane version). All good saves, Wis to AC, swift-action ability to go invisible (based on Wis), Wildshape to get lots of attacks, an Animal Companion to soak up enemy attacks, and Sudden Strike (activated by invisibility) on the many attacks you'll get.
Oracle//Rogue. All good saves, a rather lot of options (see the Oracle//Paladin build above, and use all the same Oracle stuff), and a sneak-attack rider on the ranged touch spells (of which there's a rather lot, seeing as how you can get both Cleric and Wizard ones).