Sooooo I want to play a monk.

[TheTomikaze15]

Okay so I want to play a monk. My character died last night after 2 enemies managed to both crit me on back to back turns, and the DM rolls in the open so I know it was just that characters time to go. I like the flavor of the class, but I know its relatively weak alone, and Monk 20 would be nearly useless. So that being said, I need some help building a monk based character based on the following: Being able to punch holes in people, mobility, high AC and maybe some battlefield control. Now the build doesn't necessarily need a lot of monk levels, but that's where I'd like to start.

Content Available: Most things are acceptable however the Unarmed Swordsage was not allowed per my DM. My DM is pretty lenient on most other things though, so if it's not Super cheesy I can mention it to him and odds are it will probably be approved, he's even allowed homebrew. Not sure what his reasoning was for going against the UaSS but I know he generally feels ToB classes are overpowered anyway so I wasn't that surprised. 2 Flaws are allowed and I'm leaning towards human for this build because I have a feeling it's going to be feat intensive.

Now for the party as I want to be somewhere in relevent power to them and not overshadow everyone, or be completely overshadowed myself: Cleric(Focused on being the heal bot), A Fighter(Rather new player planning to rebuild his character later when he gets the hang of things.), Rogue(Focused on Archery), A Dread Necromancer(He's basically the summon and stand out of the way type), and a fire mage homebrew which I'm unable to link due to low post count, but it's probably somewhere around the tier 2-3 level.

So going on from there my friend has recommended I take a look at either the Sacred Fist, or Enlightened fist PrC's and I really like fluff of the Fist of the Forest PrC if we could find a way to work that in, though it's not necessary. I think the Sacred Fist might have better synergy with a monk due to the wisdom synergy but I'm really at a loss for putting all of this together since I personally have little experience in building a good multiclass character. But I can say that my group uses the fractional BAB rule so I think that may help a bit here. Oh and just to note we are going to be level 6 in our next session so building for some early strength rather than coming into power later would be preferable. As much as possible anyway.

Also, a friend had mentioned the saint template, but I'm not sure if it's worth it for this type of character? Especially with a +2 LA then again I could be wrong because I believe it would grant WIS to AC twice?

[GilesTheCleric]

If your GM is okay with homebrew, do you think they would allow the PF monk? I've recently learned that (unchained) monk isn't all that bad. It has a ton more options and versatility than the 3.X monk, at least.

[root]

Probably not what you want if you're going for a more traditional Monk flavour, but if you plan to go into the Enlightened Fist PRC, I greatly suggest taking 4 levels of sorcerer and the Ascetic Mage feat from Complete Adventurer. Your monk abilities will be based on charisma, and you'll have pretty decent spells (and, let's face it, in 3.5 a wizard could probably be a better monk with appropriate spells)

You will be less beefy than equivalent level monk but having access to spells will probably alleviate this problem. And you can throw orbs of energy in the best tradition of kamehameha.

Edit: also, enlarge person and giant punches from 10 feet away.
And a plethora of battlefield control...

[Cerefel]

I'd recommend something like

Passive Way Monk 2
Ranger 3
Horizon Walker 8
Tattooed Monk 7

You would progress your unarmed strike damage with a monk's belt and the Superior Unarmed Strike feat. Also if you want you can switch the monk AC to being int based with Kung Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk (both feats). One last thing you can do is to use wildshape ranger if the speed boost would be more helpful than the combat styles.

[D4rkh0rus]

Now, There are ways to optimize a single classed monk (Yes, there are, but they include getting a metric ton of natural attacks) But, from the looks of it, your group isn't too optimized.
A healycleric is Tier 4 tops, New players with fighter don't usually break the tier 5 barrier, Archery Rogue is not that great, Tier 4. The Dread necro and fire mage will probably be tier 3 or higher.
Unless your DM is putting you up against tough stuff and the party is half dead after each fight, I'd not worry too much and just focus on roleplaying the Kung-Fu master.

Now, If you are struggling, and wanna give yourself an Oohmp, You can always play the Jedi Build.
2 Levels of Monk, 16 Levels of Ardent (Complete Psionic I believe), 1 Level of Shiba Protector (Oriental Adventures) , and 1 extra level (usually Fist of the Forest 1)

Due to the way that Ardent Advances, It bases off Manifester level, and not actual Ardent levels, thus if you Take Practiced Manifester (+4 to Manifester level, cant exceed Class levels) You will be assured of having access to Powers as a normal ardent, the only diference being that you will have less powers and a smaller power point pool.

To this you add Monastic Training (Ardent) (Choose as the second level monk Feat) and Tashalatora. This last one lets you Levels in Ardent count as monk levels for AC Bonus, Flurry, Unarmed Strike progression and I think something else. Essentially, you get the chassis of the monk.

Now you get the Mental might and force and time mantles, using the subtitute mantle power Alternate Class feature to add some powers like Telekinetic Thrust and force, and you go picking your Jedi powers (Telekinetic stuff and Illusion stuff for Light side, and just force damage/Force powers for dark side).

then, if you can use Dragon, get unorthodox flurry, if not, you can get that other feat that lets you flurry with shortswords.
Proceed to buy a Continuous Item of Moon Blade (Expensive but it looks exactly like a lightsabre)

and there you go. Jedi or Sith. Just in time for the Star wars Craze.

[nyjastul69]

There are some interesting Monk builds here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial)

[nedz]

Elf Monk 2 / Spirit Shamen 3/ Seeker of the Misty Isle 9 / Ruather 3 / Spirit Shamen +3
ACF Passive Way Combat Expertise + Improved Trip
Feats are pretty open except for Sun School at 9th, which comes online as you get access to Dimension Door. Now you can Dim door and Full attack.

This is designed as a faux Ranger / Spiritual Monk – so you can do all the outdoory stuff with Bamf Tripping.

For Combat: Flurry with a Quarter Staff using the Shillelagh / Spikes / Brambles / Entangling Staff line of spells and don't forget to Trip.

The Bite of X spells are available as are all the usual Druid BC stuff.

Oh, and you should never get ambushed since your Spot is ridiculous.
Also you should have good Hide/Move S/Listen and Survival

Just don't forget to take 4 ranks of Knowledge Religion at level one.

[DrMartin]

If you chain enough alternate class features on a barbarian you end up with a fast flurrying guy that can punch holes into people and things alike and be good at combat maneuvers: here's a fun read (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5448.0;msg=78308)

only problem i see is that you're going to miss tumble if you don't pick skilled city dweller to keep survival in order to qualify for fist of the forest (which is a PrC that works very well with barbarian, generally speaking) (nevermind, you swap ride for tumble, but keep survival. nothing to see here :D)

so a build would be something like barb 4 / fist of the forest 2, with the following acfs:
- city brawler (you gain improved unarmed strike and two weapon fighting when fighting unarmed as bonus feats, lose a bunch of proficiency) (dragon mag 349)
- lion spirit totem for pounce instead of fast movement
- frenzy or ferocity instead of rage (your pick)
- skilled city dweller for tumble instead of ride (cityscape web enhancement)
- wolf totem for trip instead of uncanny dodge

for feats you only really need power attack and great fortitude, and you get imp. trip, two wpn. fighting and imp. unarmed strike as bonus. that leaves you between one and four free feats to play with, depending on race / flaws.

[Pluto!]

It doesn't look like you have anything especially crazy going on with the rest of the party, so I'm not going to aim at full-casting power levels.

Human Passive Way Decisive Strike Monk 2/Holy Warrior Paladin 4
Feats: Travel Devotion, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Great Fortitude, Serenity, Power Attack

Results: Wis to AC, Wis to Saves, Evasion, Swift movement 1+(3+Wis)/2 fights per day, Improved Trip without Int requirement, Decisive Strike to deal double damage for a full round (including AoOs), set up for Fist of the Forest entry next level. Grab Snap Kick once available to exploit Decisive Strike further.

[Xervous]

It doesn't look like you have anything especially crazy going on with the rest of the party, so I'm not going to aim at full-casting power levels.

Human Passive Way Decisive Strike Monk 2/Holy Warrior Paladin 4
Feats: Travel Devotion, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Great Fortitude, Serenity, Power Attack

Results: Wis to AC, Wis to Saves, Evasion, Swift movement 1+(3+Wis)/2 fights per day, Improved Trip without Int requirement, Decisive Strike to deal double damage for a full round (including AoOs), set up for Fist of the Forest entry next level. Grab Snap Kick once available to exploit Decisive Strike further.

If your DM permits Oriental Adventures and you're alright with swallowing the feat taxes (Alertness and Iron Will, Combat Expertise comes from monk), Shiba Protector is amazing for a one level dip on certain monk builds. +Wis to attacks and damage. For further silliness, be exalted and get intuitive attack. Enjoy your +2x Wis to attack rolls.

[D4rkh0rus]

If your DM permits Oriental Adventures and you're alright with swallowing the feat taxes (Alertness and Iron Will, Combat Expertise comes from monk), Shiba Protector is amazing for a one level dip on certain monk builds. +Wis to attacks and damage. For further silliness, be exalted and get intuitive attack. Enjoy you +2x Wis to attack rolls.

If you're exalted you might as well go full in and get the vows, and get the Saint Template.

[Xervous]

If you're exalted you might as well go full in and get the vows, and get the Saint Template.

Full on exalted might cause problems with some parties whereas you can sneak intuitive attack in on the side. Any permissive DM will handwave the exalted prereq on it if they take a look at the (nonexistent) flavor tying it to exalted... whereas something like saint is just oozing exalted.

[Triskavanski]

I walk little old ladies across the street so I use my belief in my god to beat the ever living snot out of my foes!

Intuitive Strike in a nutshell.

[CharonsHelper]

If your GM is okay with homebrew, do you think they would allow the PF monk? I've recently learned that (unchained) monk isn't all that bad. It has a ton more options and versatility than the 3.X monk, at least.

Yes - the 3.5 monk is very bad for anything other than a dip. Pathfinder Unchained monk or a Pathfinder monk with a couple of archetypes mixed are both very viable.

[Âmesang]

"From strength, learn gentleness. From gentleness, strength will prevail."

I love the flavor of the monk, though admittedly I haven't had a chance to play as one yet (or at least in recent years, not that I can recall). Someday I've plans on playing as an awakened monkey monk based (loosely) on Sūn Wùkōng (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Wukong), with the planned build being:

"Magical Beast" (augmented animal?) 3 // Monk 6 // Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries 3 // Fist of the Forest 3* // Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries 6 // Perfected One 1+

*(Does behaving like an animal count if I'm already technically an animal?)

He'll also be taking the alternate class features of spell reflection from Complete Mage (since Initiate will give him evasion), prayerful meditation and holy strike from Complete Champion (Initiate also gives him magic unarmed strikes), and water step from Stormwrack (running across water is cool, and slow fall can be replicated with a ring of feather falling, no?).

If everything works correctly, he should end up with a 2d10 unarmed strike despite being Small with only 17 class levels pre-epic (thanks to Improved Natural Attack), as well as his unarmed strike counting as magical, holy, and "lesser ghost touch" (50% chance to do full damage against incorporeal foes, half-damage the rest of the time). He'll also have some nifty class features from Initiate and Fist that should work better or supercede most of what regular monk would get him… I just need to see if a DM'll let me stack his natural low-light vision with Initiate's low-light vision (like a pre-epic Improved Low-Light Vision or pseudo "Keen Senses").

Granted, this is a very specific built, trying to get the most out of "monk" in my own way whilst slowly replicating the strength and skill of a fictional character… though, really, said character was mostly likely an epic or gestalted monk/sorcerer or monk/druid what with his "shapechange into just about anything and clone himself like mad" abilities. It'd also be neat for him to get his golden-eyed detect evil at will ability with double penalties from smoke effects.

[radthemad4]

I'm rather fond of this homebrew monk (http://dndwiki.com/wiki/Monk,_Tome_%283.5e_Class%29). You could try asking your DM if you can play it. You won't even need to multiclass or prc or anything to make a good monk with it.

[MisterKaws]

If you want to literally punch holes through everything, I'd suggest these things:

- Decisive strike.
- Be a Kalashtar for the Ectoplasmic Fist shard, size large fists
- Implant Mighty Arms and put Battlefists into your mighty arms, size huge fists
- Beast Strike feat, now your 1d8 slam stacks with your huge fists
- Fanged Ring, gargantuan size fists plus con damage on crit
- Hammerfist, Dragon Compendium version only requires 13 str and imp. unarmed strike
- Enter Psionic Warrior and do Tashalatora, if your DM doesn't use multiclass penalties, ask him to remove Monastic Training from pre-requisites, maybe change it to Stunning Fist, as the other multiclass Monk feats don't need any other feat. Don't forget to get practiced manifester.
- Use expansion, size gargantuan and later colossal fists.
- If your DM allows this, get a Spell to Power Erudite to Psychic Chirurgery mighty wallop and greater mighty wallop into your brain, with this, you'll now scale in fist size from colossal+ all the way to colossal+++++ at level 20.

With all this, you could potentially deal 64d8(pure unarmed)+2d8(slam with two increases)+1.5*str bonus+battlefist's enhancements, double that on a decisive strike, and you can still greater mighty wallop your slam to 12d8. Even if your DM doesn't allow the Mighty wallop conversion, you could still do a maximum of 16d8+2d8+1.5*str+enhancements, double on decisive strike.

Sorry, mighty wallop only works up to colossal .-. though you can still do it on the slam to a +3 size modifier.

If you still wanna do that much damage, I guess you could learn the nightmare blade series or just use one of those martial items.

anyway, get the rest of your feats to attacks of opportunity, you deal a lot of damage because of decisive strike, use it.

[TheTomikaze15]

Wow, got a big response from you guys, I appreciate all the input. I was kind of thinking of going some sort of Sacred fist of the forest build.

Something like: passive way monk 2//Cleric 3//FotF 1//Sacred Fist 10//FotF 2//?? 2

[Zetapup]

Personally, I'd recommend something like monk x/psionic class x/psionic fist 10 (your choice whether you want to add tashalatora to psionic fist to double up on some of your monk class features). Add in a few alternate class features (decisive strike, invisible fist, maybe a few others. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444354-3-5-Alternative-Class-Features-%28ported-from-Wizards-community-boards%29)'s a link to the list of alternate class features so you can pick any others you want).

Ur-Priest gives you advanced divine spellcasting, but it's pretty cheesy when theurged and I believe it requires you to be evil. Off the top of my head, I can't recall any full divine casting classes that get full BAB, although you could use divine metamagic with persistent on divine power to increase your BAB to your character level. As long as you don't use any nightsticks or other ways to increase your turning pool, that would probably be fine power-wise.

[Curmudgeon]

A healycleric is Tier 1 tops
I fixed that for you. Any Cleric can pick better spells the next day.

Some nice things specific to Monks:

Invisible Fist ACF (Exemplars of Evil, page 21): become invisible for 1 round every 3 rounds at level 2; use Blink at level 9.
Train with a Sparring Dummy of the Master (Arms and Equipment Guide, page 137) and learn to take a 10' step instead of a 5' step.

Really cranking up your unarmed damage is easy if your party Sorcerer/Wizard will cast Greater Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon, page 115) on you once a day.

[Keld Denar]

Instead of trying to stitch together some complicated build, I've found that a very simply homebrew is to take the standard PHB monk, strip off all of the SUs (basically everything but UAS, Fast Movement, feats, and AC) and splice on PsyWar manifesting. Everything that a standard PHB monk can do, a PsyWar can learn to do (or not, if you choose). Instead of 1/day, you select how much you use your weak vs strong powers depending on your day. Much more adaptable with an emphasis on resource management.

Not sure what your DM would think about that, but makes for a nice simple Monk20 build without sacrificing power.

[Telonius]

If you're considering Sacred Fist, there's a very important rules discrepancy that you should run by your DM. In the summary table, there is no casting increase at levels 4 and 8. However, in the text:


Spells per Day/Spells Known: When a new sacred fist level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever spellcasting class in which he could cast divine spells before he added the prestige class.

Usually when there is an exception to a spellcasting increase, it's mentioned in the description; for example, the text for Hospitaler in the same book:


Thus, when a new hospitaler level is gained (except for 1st, 5th, and 9th levels), the character gains new divine spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had gained a level in the a divine spellcasting class to which she belonged before adding the prestige class level.

Text is supposed to trump table, so this means that (by the rules) Sacred Fist is supposed to get 10/10 casting, not 8/10 casting. This is very well-known on the boards, but (at least anecdotally) it can catch some DMs by surprise. Make sure your DM knows about this beforehand.

[Cerefel]

Wow, got a big response from you guys, I appreciate all the input. I was kind of thinking of going some sort of Sacred fist of the forest build.

Something like: passive way monk 2//Cleric 3//FotF 1//Sacred Fist 10//FotF 2//?? 2

If you don't care about 9ths and want nature flavor for FotF You could do something like:

Monk 4
Mystic Ranger 4 (with Ascetic Hunter feat at 6)
Fist of the Forest 3
Sacred Fist 9

[TheTomikaze15]

If you don't care about 9ths and want nature flavor for FotF You could do something like:

Monk 4
Mystic Ranger 4 (with Ascetic Hunter feat at 6)
Fist of the Forest 3
Sacred Fist 9

That's an interesting idea, but would the mystic ranger qualify me for sacred fist? I don't see divine spellcasting there unless I'm missing something? The other thing I'm thinking is that I don't really gain much from monk 3-4, would it be better for me to say take a level of barbarian and pick up pounce? And maybe some other full bab class?

[Flickerdart]

That's an interesting idea, but would the mystic ranger qualify me for sacred fist? I don't see divine spellcasting there unless I'm missing something?
Rangers are divine spellcasters.

[Cerefel]

That's an interesting idea, but would the mystic ranger qualify me for sacred fist? I don't see divine spellcasting there unless I'm missing something? The other thing I'm thinking is that I don't really gain much from monk 3-4, would it be better for me to say take a level of barbarian and pick up pounce? And maybe some other full bab class?

I don't really like including Monk and Barbarian in the same build because of the mutually exclusive alignment restrictions, but that's just my personal preference.

[Lagren]

Okay so I want to play a monk. My character died last night after 2 enemies managed to both crit me on back to back turns, and the DM rolls in the open so I know it was just that characters time to go. I like the flavor of the class, but I know its relatively weak alone, and Monk 20 would be nearly useless. So that being said, I need some help building a monk based character based on the following: Being able to punch holes in people, mobility, high AC and maybe some battlefield control. Now the build doesn't necessarily need a lot of monk levels, but that's where I'd like to start.


Would you mind maybe clarifying a little on what you'd like flavor-wise? Apparently you like Fist of the Forest: Are you looking for a natural sage type, or something more savage?

[TheMooch]

I prefer this monk build. It also uses truenamer and but it pulls out some fun tricks and you still get to punch things.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?426560-Optimising-a-Disciple-of-the-Word-%28Abandon-all-hope-ye-who-enter-here%29

[TheTomikaze15]

Would you mind maybe clarifying a little on what you'd like flavor-wise? Apparently you like Fist of the Forest: Are you looking for a natural sage type, or something more savage?

Well I'm kind of looking to play some sort of sacred monk. fist of the forest isn't necessary I just thought the extra UAS scaling and con to AC would be nice. He doesn't have to be forest based but I can add that flavor to the back story if I end up taking FotF levels.

Basically my goals with the build are to have sacred fist, fist of the forest and 1 lvl of shiba protector. Though I don't know if that's plausable as it seems like a lot of feat tax to have all of that at any early point in the game. Though am I allowed flaws so that may help. I feel like if I have the shibs protector level I should also have intuitive strike.

I'm just trying to make a monk build that has options other than I punch that guy or trip him, but that said I want the focus to be UAS damage and being hard to hit whether that come from spells or just high ac

[TheMooch]

I'm just trying to make a monk build that has options other than I punch that guy or trip him, but that said I want the focus to be UAS damage and being hard to hit whether that come from spells or just high ac

You need to check out the link I posted. It allows you declare a target of your dodge feat and get total concealment from them.

[Lagren]

Well I'm kind of looking to play some sort of sacred monk. fist of the forest isn't necessary I just thought the extra UAS scaling and con to AC would be nice. He doesn't have to be forest based but I can add that flavor to the back story if I end up taking FotF levels.

Basically my goals with the build are to have sacred fist, fist of the forest and 1 lvl of shiba protector. Though I don't know if that's plausable as it seems like a lot of feat tax to have all of that at any early point in the game. Though am I allowed flaws so that may help. I feel like if I have the shibs protector level I should also have intuitive strike.

I'm just trying to make a monk build that has options other than I punch that guy or trip him, but that said I want the focus to be UAS damage and being hard to hit whether that come from spells or just high ac

Consider Monk 2/Paladin 4/Sacred Fist 10/XYZ 4 perhaps? The Serenity feat from Dragon Compendium makes all your paladin abilities work on Wisdom, so this build gives you Wis to AC and saves, 14th-level Wisdom-based Paladin casting, Wis-based turn undead, Wis-based smiting, and full Unarmed Strike progression if you also take Ascetic Knight. Add Battle Blessing, Intuitive Strike, and Divine/Devotion feats to taste. Maybe dip Cleric 1, if you're human or Lesser Aasimar or your DM doesn't use multiclassing penalties.

[Fouredged Sword]

I'm going to suggest Swordsage despite the fact that you have UUsS disallowed. It's really just a few feats to get unarmed damage back and you get to wear light armor if you wish.

Sword Sage 20
Improved Unarmed strike
Superior Unarmed strike at 6th level

If you really want to go into a monk / caster PRC mix, consider the following

Monk 2 / Cleric 18 with cleric based PRC's. Sacred fist isn't that great, just pick up superior unarmed strike and a monk's belt to up your damage.

[Lagren]

I'm going to suggest Swordsage despite the fact that you have UUsS disallowed. It's really just a few feats to get unarmed damage back and you get to wear light armor if you wish.

Sword Sage 20
Improved Unarmed strike
Superior Unarmed strike at 6th level

If you really want to go into a monk / caster PRC mix, consider the following

Monk 2 / Cleric 18 with cleric based PRC's. Sacred fist isn't that great, just pick up superior unarmed strike and a monk's belt to up your damage.

Sacred Fist is actually a pretty decent Gish PrC, IMO. It's full-casting and full-BAB, progresses Unarmed Strike and Fast Movement, and even grants some nice abilities on top of that. There are far worse classes.

[Cerefel]

Sacred Fist is actually a pretty decent Gish PrC, IMO. It's full-casting and full-BAB, progresses Unarmed Strike and Fast Movement, and even grants some nice abilities on top of that. There are far worse classes.

Especially for a monk PrC considering that even without the casting, it's still better than straight monk.

[Lagren]

Especially for a monk PrC considering that even without the casting, it's still better than straight monk.

And with the casting, it's better than straight Cleric: after all, they get all their class features at 1st level. (Shame about that four-feat tax, though... :smalltongue:)

[MeeposFire]

Hmm it seems that the unchained monk is a combo of several different monk classes such as bringing back 3.5 flurry. It seems to be a slight improvement but honestly it seems to miss out on the most important flaw of the 3e monk (and most other weapon using classes in general to be honest) which is its reliance on the full attack action for combat relevance particularly with the monk since it relies on mobility and that conflicts with full attack actions.

I always find it interesting that 3e style classes have been around for so long now and designers still continue to make this simple mistake even after things like ToB where the biggest advantage was the ability to make effective attacks as a standard action.

I think that unchained monk would be improved vastly if the flurry was chained to work like the snap kick feat (keep the flurry penalties and number of attacks the same) that way you can choose to flurry on an attack action or a full attack action. That would allow the monk to be mobile when desired and still effective. I think I also miss the will save but that is not a deal breaker. Even the original monk gains a lot just from this small change (also access to ways to improve unarmed damage similar to magic weapons which is another key issue in some games).

[TheTomikaze15]

And with the casting, it's better than straight Cleric: after all, they get all their class features at 1st level. (Shame about that four-feat tax, though... :smalltongue:)

I'm confused? What four feat tax?

[Platymus Pus]

Just buy a monk's belt for a optimized barbarian.

[nedz]

I'm confused? What four feat tax?

Combat Casting , Combat Reflexes , Improved Unarmed Strike , Stunning Fist — but a Monk will likely have 2 of those anyway.

I'm not all that impressed with Sacred Fist personally, even with Text Trumps table, because you are forced to only use fists and never weapons. But maybe this is because I'm comparing it to other Cleric PrCs rather than other Monk PrCs, through the latter prism it is of course excellent.

Now Monk / Cleric entry is good, for all the usual Cleric dip reasons, but you ought to consider the Monk / Druid, or Monk / Spirit Shaman, entry. The advantage here is that the Druid list contains several buffs which synergies nicely with Monk, also there are several Druid ACFs which add more Monkeyness. Cleric buffs are also excellent, of course, but they have less flavour.

Druid 5 entry is possible, though the feat tax and lack of Knowledge (religion) become onerous so flaws are probably required. Monk 1 / Druid 4 or Monk 2 / Druid 3 alleviates this almost completely — Knowledge (religion) is a Monk class skill. Druid 5 is a tempting level though.

Spirit Shaman offers fewer advantages, but is an interesting flavour if you re-fluff the class slightly. This is less powerful, but only slightly, and has the same entry issues as Druid.

[Waazraath]

If you're considering Sacred Fist, there's a very important rules discrepancy that you should run by your DM. In the summary table, there is no casting increase at levels 4 and 8. However, in the text:

Usually when there is an exception to a spellcasting increase, it's mentioned in the description; for example, the text for Hospitaler in the same book:

Text is supposed to trump table, so this means that (by the rules) Sacred Fist is supposed to get 10/10 casting, not 8/10 casting. This is very well-known on the boards, but (at least anecdotally) it can catch some DMs by surprise. Make sure your DM knows about this beforehand.

No offense, but I think this is rather tricky. Text may trump table, but in this case, the text contradicts at least two tables and another part of the text, that is the example build. There are a number of classes in Complete Divine (Sacred fist, rainbow servant, seeker of the misty isle, maybe more) that 1) are mentioned in the prestige class overview table on p20 as moderate casting, miss a few caster levels in their own tables, and have example builds which reflect their partial casterishness.

I've never seen the rule that 'text trumps several tables and part of the text that are example builds'; since there is an extraordinary situation, I think most DM's will think for themselves on this one, instead of blind following 'ttt' (even if it would be appropriate here). And the conclusion of most DM's I know is that it's likely that the writers made a copy/paste error in the 'spells per day / spell's known'-section of these classes. More likely then that they made an error in 3 other places, for all of these classes.

So no, I wouldn't automaticly assume sacred fist to be full caster, I wouldn't press this point myself with any DM (it's good enough as it is, 8/10 caster), and I wouln't be happy if one of my players would do so with me.



As for the 'building a monk' in general: as others have mentioned, you don't seem to have highly optimized party. I really would't bother with an all too complicated build, if you don't want to outshine the rogue and the fighter. If you want to go the divine caster route, monk / cleric / sacred fist should be more then enough. Grab protection devotion, to increase your own survivability, and to help you unoptimized fighter friend to stay alive. In this party, I think it would be viable as well to go for a more traditional monk build, like monk 6 / FotF 3 , or a changeling monk 6 / warshaper 4; both to be finished with whatever has your fancy. The FotF already has max monk damage (2d10) with superior unarmed strike and a monk's belt.

Tashalatora, greater mighty wallop, complicated builds with 5 or more classes... I'd stay away from it. Good stuff, but the power level of your party just doesn't seem that high that it's called for.

[TheTomikaze15]

Personally, I'd recommend something like monk x/psionic class x/psionic fist 10 (your choice whether you want to add tashalatora to psionic fist to double up on some of your monk class features). Add in a few alternate class features (decisive strike, invisible fist, maybe a few others. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444354-3-5-Alternative-Class-Features-%28ported-from-Wizards-community-boards%29)'s a link to the list of alternate class features so you can pick any others you want).

Ur-Priest gives you advanced divine spellcasting, but it's pretty cheesy when theurged and I believe it requires you to be evil. Off the top of my head, I can't recall any full divine casting classes that get full BAB, although you could use divine metamagic with persistent on divine power to increase your BAB to your character level. As long as you don't use any nightsticks or other ways to increase your turning pool, that would probably be fine power-wise.

So I found out today the DM changed our available books. We are now only able to use content from PUB 1&2 MM 1-3, spell compendium, MIC and the complete series. So that being said I'm really interested in the psychic fist but I know little regarding the Manifester powers and things like that. That being said, could someone help me with a

Monk1-2/manifester class4-5/fist of Zuoken(I think that's the Psionic fist of 3.5?) 10/?? Build?

Like weighing the options of each class I could plug in there? Also some recommendations on Psionic related feats?

[John Longarrow]

As an alternative to the more complex builds, I'd suggest 20 levels of Ranger. Go TWF. Feats would be
Lvl 1 - Improved Unarmed Strike
Lvl 3 - Superior Unarmed Strike
Lvl 6 - Weapon Finesse

If you want to add in more combat options, dipping Barbarian for a couple levels gets you rage but delays your extra attacks.
If you dip two levels sword sage you get a lot of maneuvers that replicate Monk type abilities and get Wisdom to AC
If you dip one level Swashbuckler you get Weapon Finesse for free; 3 levels gets you Int to your unarmed damage.

For pure damage output, I'd suggest the following as your first 7 levels;

lvl 1 Ranger - Feat Improved Unarmed Strike
Lvl 2 Ranger - Class Feature TWF style (extra attack)
Lvl 3 Swashbuckler - Feat Superior Unarmed Strike Class Feature Weapon Finesse
Lvl 4 Swashbuckler
Lvl 5 Sword Sage
Lvl 6 Sword Sage - Feat Shadow Blade (Dex bonus to damage with finesseable attacks)
Lvl 7 Swashbuckler - Class Feature Insightful Strike (Int bonus to damage with finessable attacks)

With a standard 32 point build you'd have all 14's except a 10 in Cha. At 7th level you'd be +6/+6/+1 for 1d6+6/1d6+5/1d6+6 for your damage.

This build gets more scary on a grey elf. -2 STR, but +2 DEX and INT. Net bonus +1 to hit and +2 to damage.

If you want to play an unarmed combatant, never take a monk. They are not good at it, especially when you have a LOT of other options. Pre-ToB I build a Fighter 8 / Barbarian 12 that got 7 attacks a round and did the same average damage per attack as a 20th level monk. Course the fighter/barbarian had a better to hit and could rage!