Big Ball of Whatever - A Gestalt Optimization Challenge

[acidphoenix]

So yeah, this is an optimization challenge - for a gestalt character. You can use whatever(so long as you stick to guidelines)

You have as much options as you want- whatever feats, classes, and such- on one side of the gestalt. On the other side, it's all decided for you!

So, for this challenge, that side in question shall be, for the first Big Ball of Whatever Optimization Challenge in the Playground.....

Swordsage 15/Master of Nine 5!!!

Rules shamelessly stolen from the Iron Chef thread:

Contestants: You will need to present a full 20-level build for your entry. Also required is a rundown of how your build works at lower levels, to demonstrate that it is a functional character that could be played from 1-20 in a real game. Traditionally contestants give "snapshots" of tactics and abilities at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, as well as a "sweet spot" of their choosing that represents what they believe to be the high point of the build. The purpose of these snapshots is not just to showcase your use of the SI, it is to demonstrate that your character is playable at every level. For this reason, it's still worth giving a snapshot before you have entered the SI.

Menu: The opposite part of the gestalt can be drawn from any legal source.

32 point-buy is the presumed creation method, but we have generally allowed other levels of point-buy.
If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.

Kitchen: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Alternate rule systems from UA such as Generic Classes are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em. Please refrain from using Taint unless it's necessary for the fixed side of the gestalt.
NB: Official Errata and 3.5 updates to 3.0 content are considered valid regardless of whether their sources would otherwise be legal. This includes the 3.5 update of Oriental Adventures given in Dragon Magazine, and the 3.5 updates of Dragonlance Campaign Setting content given in later third party Dragonlance books. The gestalt restriction on having multiple PrCs is ignored.

Cooking Time: Contestants will have until January 15th, 2016 to create their builds and PM them to the Chairman, acidphoenix. Please put the name of your build in the subject line of your PM. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until January 29th, 2016 to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted.

Judging: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated on a scale from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of Both Gestalt Sides.

Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.
Elegance could bear a little elaboration. It basically measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is considered in poor taste, and judges are asked to take a dim view of this option, taking it into account while grading. Other things that will cause penalties here are excessive multi-classing, and classes that don't fit the concept - using Cloistered Cleric in a front-line melee fighter, for example, will lose you points.Please note the following change: a legal source's relative obscurity should not be considered as penalizing Elegance, excepting the aforementioned issues with Unearthed Arcana. Using too many sources may result in a penalty to Elegance at the judges' discretion, but a book's relative obscurity may not. In that same vein, drawing solely from the Core 3 (and the d20 SRD) should not be punished for lacking Originality.
Presentation: Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!

Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.NAME OF ENTRY


Level
Class1
Class2
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
New Class Level
Swordsage
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


2nd
New Class Level
Swordsage
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


3rd
New Class Level
Swordsage
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


4th
New Class Level
Swordsage
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


5th
New Class Level
Swordsage
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


6th
New Class Level
Swordsage
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


7th
New Class Level
Swordsage
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


8th
New Class Level
Swordsage
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


9th
New Class Level
Swordsage
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


10th
New Class Level
Swordsage
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


11th
New Class Level
Swordsage
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


12th
New Class Level
Swordsage
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


13th
New Class Level
Swordsage
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


14th
New Class Level
Swordsage
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


15th
New Class Level
Swordsage
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


16th
New Class Level
Master of Nine
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


17th
New Class Level
Master of Nine
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


18th
New Class Level
Master of Nine
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


19th
New Class Level
Master of Nine
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


20th
New Class Level
Master of Nine
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities



Code immediately below (spoiler).NAME OF ENTRY


Level
Class1
Class2
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
New Class Level
Swordsage
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


2nd
New Class Level
Swordsage
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


3rd
New Class Level
Swordsage
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


4th
New Class Level
Swordsage
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


5th
New Class Level
Swordsage
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


6th
New Class Level
Swordsage
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


7th
New Class Level
Swordsage
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


8th
New Class Level
Swordsage
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


9th
New Class Level
Swordsage
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


10th
New Class Level
Swordsage
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


11th
New Class Level
Swordsage
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


12th
New Class Level
Swordsage
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


13th
New Class Level
Swordsage
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


14th
New Class Level
Swordsage
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


15th
New Class Level
Swordsage
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


16th
New Class Level
Master of Nine
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


17th
New Class Level
Master of Nine
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


18th
New Class Level
Master of Nine
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


19th
New Class Level
Master of Nine
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


20th
New Class Level
Master of Nine
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities



For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)Spells per Day/Spells Known
Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


Code immediately below (spoiler)Spells per Day/Spells Known
Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-



For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.
Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.

Leadership is banned; we're producing a meal, not a seven-course banquet for a hundred diners. If your entry includes a prestige class or ACF that grants Leadership or a Leadership-like ability as a bonus feat, the feat should be ignored and is not eligible to be traded away for another feat or ACF through any means.

So! Who wants to sign up as a contestant, and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for as many contestants and judges as feel like playing!

We will award 1st through 3rd places, as well as a shout-out for honourable mention. The honourable mention prize is given to the most daring or unexpected build. Judges, contestants and guests alike are invited to vote for honourable mention via PM. If there are no votes, Honourable Mention will go to the chairman's favourite build.

[GilesTheCleric]

Cooking Time: Contestants will have until January 15th, 2016 to create their builds and PM them to the Chairwoman, Heliomance.

Welcome to the playground! Is Heliomance judging/ presiding?

[acidphoenix]

Welcome to the playground! Is Heliomance judging/ presiding?

I knew I missed something when copying Iron Chef rules over ;; fixed

[GilesTheCleric]

I can't help but notice that these are your first two posts to this subforum. It sounds like you're well-versed in optimisation, though? If you're judging, is there somewhere that contestants can go to get an idea of your judging style and preferences?

[acidphoenix]

I can't help but notice that these are your first two posts to this subforum. It sounds like you're well-versed in optimisation, though? If you're judging, is there somewhere that contestants can go to get an idea of your judging style and preferences?

I've lurked in here/minmaxboards for the past nine months or so to the former.

To the latter: hmm... uh.. not really I guess, although I'll only be judging if anyone else applying for the job is limited(i.e. if we get three other judges I probably won't) Although if I had to describe how I'd likely judge.. I'd basically put higher emphasis on using the fixed side and making a powerful build, and mostly using elegance as a handle on abusing the system.

[GilesTheCleric]

Certainly. So, for example, you might dock heavily on elegance if folks were to use a T1/T2 for the other half of the gestalt? With this challenge, Swordsage is a fairly active class so it's probably not as much of a temptation, but I'm curious. I ask because I personally would find it difficult to judge simply given the overwhelming number of options that gestalt opens up.

[acidphoenix]

Certainly. So, for example, you might dock heavily on elegance if folks were to use a T1/T2 for the other half of the gestalt? With this challenge, Swordsage is a fairly active class so it's probably not as much of a temptation, but I'm curious. I ask because I personally would find it difficult to judge simply given the overwhelming number of options that gestalt opens up.

Basically yes. If you just did Cleric 20//SS/Mo9 with DMM Persist and other divine spellcasting boosts, I'd dock off a lot since then you're basically a cleric who happens to have martial maneuvers, rather than using swordsage as an active part of your build. On the other hand, if you did Cleric 20//SS/Mo9 and then focused on the combination of divine magic and martial maneuvers in your build, I'd probably still dock off some just because of how comparatively good Cleric is, but not nearly as much.

[GilesTheCleric]

Judges, contestants and guests alike are invited to vote for honourable mention via PM. If there are no votes, Honourable Mention will go to the chairwoman's favourite build.Okay, that makes sense. I can see it as being a fairly fine line between "combination of divine magic and martial maneuvers" and "other divine spellcasting boosts", but I suppose that's what having individual, unique judges is about.

Sorry to ask such pointed questions, but the recent thread about the tier system has left me questioning my previous assumptions about power/ versatility, tiers, and classification.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Just checking - are we allowed prestige classes on both sides of the build?

Edit: Also, do Swordsages get Wis to AC when unarmoured, or only in light armour?

More Edit: Can we use Unarmed Swordsage?

[acidphoenix]

Yes, I added something about that somewhere.

Either.

No.

[Requiem_Jeer]

Question: Level Adjustment. I have an idea about being a Vampire, would level adjustment only take up the free side of the gestalt? Racial Hit Dice as well if I was so inclined?

[acidphoenix]

Question: Level Adjustment. I have an idea about being a Vampire, would level adjustment only take up the free side of the gestalt? Racial Hit Dice as well if I was so inclined?

Correct. :extracharacters:

[Requiem_Jeer]

Next question: Items. In many builds there's some item, usually some weapon enhancement, that's required to make the build really 'click'. I've never done the Iron Chef challenge before, nor really paid much attention, so I'm unsure how this works exactly.

I plan on just mentioning it in the progressions, by the time the build can even use it the cost's pretty trivial. I take it might ding my elegance, though?

[Troacctid]

Is fractional BAB in effect? Gestalt gets weird without it. (Wizard 20//Fighter 1/Sorcerer 19 has full BAB.)

Also, the table should really have two columns for class.

[acidphoenix]

Next question: Items. In many builds there's some item, usually some weapon enhancement, that's required to make the build really 'click'. I've never done the Iron Chef challenge before, nor really paid much attention, so I'm unsure how this works exactly.

I plan on just mentioning it in the progressions, by the time the build can even use it the cost's pretty trivial. I take it might ding my elegance, though?
Some possibly for elegance for a build that /needs/ the item, but if it functions well without it it'll probably be ignorable.

Is fractional BAB in effect? Gestalt gets weird without it. (Wizard 20//Fighter 1/Sorcerer 19 has full BAB.)

Also, the table should really have two columns for class.
Yes.

Fixed.

[Triskavanski]

I'm confused.



Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt or Generic Classes are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em. Please refrain from using Taint unless it's necessary for the fixed side of the gestalt.

[acidphoenix]

Fixed the above, oops.

[MisterKaws]

I'm confused.

He just blatantly copied the Iron Chief's description, that's why stuff's kinda weird, but I'm willing to give a try after I get some free time.

[Troacctid]

What about multiclass xp penalties? They're also weird in gestalt.

[MisterKaws]

What about multiclass xp penalties? They're also weird in gestalt.

Just don't use them, probably the best choice. Instead of multiclass penalties, just add elegance penalties for huge amounts of multiclassing, maybe above 4 or 5 classes.

[Troacctid]

Just don't use them, probably the best choice. Instead of multiclass penalties, just add elegance penalties for huge amounts of multiclassing, maybe above 4 or 5 classes.

I don't think that should merit a penalty if there's no xp penalty for it. The "twenty dips on one side" strategy is totally viable in gestalt.

[MisterKaws]

Just to be sure, are Eberron and FR allowed as usual?

[Lagren]

Are we required to take Swordsage 15/Mo9 5 in that order, or can we take Mo9 earlier than level 15?

[MisterKaws]

Are we required to take Swordsage 15/Mo9 5 in that order, or can we take Mo9 earlier than level 15?

Probably optional, but rather optimal to do it later on a theoretical build, as it gets more lvl 9s.

[Requiem_Jeer]

Eh, yeah, a level 20 build has a few things you can do to maximize stuff, but if it's all at the level 20 point, where's the usage of the master of nine? You don't actually get more level nines, getting them in Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart, and White raven just becomes an option. The Master of Nine doesn't acquire more maneuvers then a base swordsage, they just don't have to swap a lower level one out on the levels they get 2.

If you really want those 9th level maneuvers, put Master of Nine 5 at the 17th level and you're golden, it's not even a good idea to get all three of them

[MisterKaws]

Eh, yeah, a level 20 build has a few things you can do to maximize stuff, but if it's all at the level 20 point, where's the usage of the master of nine? You don't actually get more level nines, getting them in Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart, and White raven just becomes an option. The Master of Nine doesn't acquire more maneuvers then a base swordsage, they just don't have to swap a lower level one out on the levels they get 2.

If you really want those 9th level maneuvers, put Master of Nine 5 at the 17th level and you're golden, it's not even a good idea to get all three of them

Oh, sorry, I just forgot swordsage had obnoxious amounts of maneuvers...

[Requiem_Jeer]

Yeah, you get 28 maneuvers on that side of the gestalt, plus seven stances, plus 6 more that were swapped out at swordsage levels 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, and 14.

That's, incidentally, an average of 3.88 per school, if you want to spread it out, and only 10 can be of the Devoted Spirit, White Raven, and Iron Heart disciplines. It's probably a good idea to neglect a few, as long as you use at least one of the three schools you need Master of Nine to get.

[Requiem_Jeer]

So, again a newbie question for the Iron Chef... The leadership-like ban, does that assume any cohort-like power, or does it also cover things like domination or necromantic reanimation?

[MisterKaws]

So, again a newbie question for the Iron Chef... The leadership-like ban, does that assume any cohort-like power, or does it also cover things like domination or necromantic reanimation?

I guess it's fine as long as you don't specifically rely on those abilities to do some power shenanigans, so just follow the rule of elegance.

[Troacctid]

I might submit one for this, maybe.

[Darrin]

I've never really mucked around with gestalt, so maybe this is somewhat obvious, but do you count both sides of the gestalt towards Initiator Level? If I take, say, Shadow Sun Ninja on the other side, how does that affect my Swordsage IL?

[MisterKaws]

I've never really mucked around with gestalt, so maybe this is somewhat obvious, but do you count both sides of the gestalt towards Initiator Level? If I take, say, Shadow Sun Ninja on the other side, how does that affect my Swordsage IL?

The widely-accepted rule(I have no idea if it's written in the book) is that prestige classes can only progress classes in their own side of the gestalt, so nope.

[Requiem_Jeer]

So the deadline is soon-ish, and the thread hasn't had any chatter for over week. Is that normal for one of these things?

[Aegis013]

I've never really mucked around with gestalt, so maybe this is somewhat obvious, but do you count both sides of the gestalt towards Initiator Level? If I take, say, Shadow Sun Ninja on the other side, how does that affect my Swordsage IL?


The widely-accepted rule(I have no idea if it's written in the book) is that prestige classes can only progress classes in their own side of the gestalt, so nope.

I believe the RAW answer is "Yes, but you only get the best progression of either side", the same way if you take Paladin/Fighter as a level 1 character, you have 1 BAB, not 2. A Swordsage 15/Mo9 5 // Warblade 20 will still have an IL of 20 for both Swordsage and Warblade. However, a Swordsage 15/Mo9 5 // Warblade 15 / Commoner 5 will still have an IL of 20 for both Swordsage and Warblade (though the last 5 for Warblade aren't doing much for you, since PrCs advance all of your martial adept ILs).

That prestige classes only progress classes in "their own side of the gestalt" is a very common, widely used house rule, as MisterKaws suggested. However, when it comes to gestalt, there are no such things as sides. It's just a convenient way for us to look at the character as a statblock.

For example, there's no difference between a Swordsage 1/Warblade 1/Swordsage +13/Mo9 5 // Warblade 1/Swordsage +1/Warblade +18 and SS 15/Mo9 5 // WB 20. They're exactly the same in every way other than notation.


So the deadline is soon-ish, and the thread hasn't had any chatter for over week. Is that normal for one of these things?

Depends on the contest. I've seen it happen for the less popular contests, but it seems acidphoenix may be unavailable for the moment. They started a PbP game as well and haven't posted there in some time, either. We'll see.

[Requiem_Jeer]

A question suddenly occurs: Are we forced to take the Master of Nine levels specifically at 16-20? Or does it work out as long as we get the correct total levels in each?

Edit: Eh, I'll just assume it's like most of the vaguer rules interpretations, where you get dinged points instead of being disqualified if someone thinks you did something wrong.

[Requiem_Jeer]

So the deadline passed, for what it's worth.

[acidphoenix]

I'm here, going to extend this an extra week since I currently have 1 total submission.

Submissions now due one week from this post.

@Darrin: What Aegis013 said.