[3.P] What is there to do in combat?

[GilesTheCleric]

Okay, after several enlightening threads about PF (weapons, grappling), and having spent a week thinking and looking through my books, I cannot figure out what I'd like my ranger to do in combat.

Game rules: E8. T3 max. 3.5+drag (classes), PF (skills, items, races, rules), some 3p (DSP) allowed. All setting materials allowed. No 3.0. PrCs by request. Low-magic. PHB2 retraining allowed.

Mystic Wildshape Bear Totem Ranger 8
1: Animal Devotion, probably Power Attack (human?), something (FMI?) (flaw), something (flaw)
3: something
6: Natural Spell
8+: more feats
@4: retrain Animal Devotion to Sword of the Arcane Order

Capabilities: I'm trying to figure this bit out. Skill points into knowledges and social. I plan to make Polymorph my 4th level spell when I can access it at level 8 (mystic ranger progresses at 3.5 sorc pace).

I typically play a cleric or rogue, but this game is a mix of politics (~70%) and high-lethality combat (~30%) set in Three Kingdoms China. There will be a lot of solo play, as well as fighting in regimented/ army-style environments. Thus I'm locked into one of mystic ranger, bard, or dread necro; another player already called dibs on bard, and DN doesn't fit how I'd like to RP this game. However, I'll need something for my character to do in combat so that they don't die during levels 1-3 before wizard spells come online. I'm planning on retraining all my early-level feats, but I still need to figure out what they'll be in the first place. Here's a list of what I've looked at, and why it will/ not work.


Grappling: PF nerfed grapple, and there's no getting around it without a focused build. No magic items means it's basically insurmountable.
Tripping: Effective, but less reliable in PF. No spiked chain and the CMD rules make it tricky. Mostly I just find this style incredibly boring.
Sundering: No. Moving on.
Disarming: Could be interesting, but I think it has heavy feat taxes and a low success rate. I won't have iteratives, so they can just pick up their weapon again.
Bullrushing: Possible; I haven't looked into this. I don't think it will do any damage without Dungeoncrasher, though, and I can't take dips or else I lose that precious 4th level spell.
Ubercharging: Cheap and effective, but it's even more boring than tripping. It's also the easy way out, and I'm too stubborn to use that. Practically, it will be ineffective in situations where I'm solo/ vs many foes.
AoOs/Karmic: I was really hopeful on this build, before noticing that Karmic Strike has two feat taxes (plus an extra one for Faerie Mysteries Initiate). That's too much for a feat that requires me to get hit.
Ranged: Way too feat-intensive and magic item-dependent.
Thrown: A possibility with Brutal Throw. I haven't looked into this, since I have no experience with it.
Natural Attacks: Tricky to do before Wildshape comes online at 5.
Unarmed Attacks: If only it worked with natural attacks from wildshape.
Maneuvers: I looked through all of DSP's PoW 1st level maneuvers, and nothing stood out to me. I'll have to see if that healing strike from ToB could work, or if the refresh mechanic is a wasted full round as well. I could stand to learn more about how this could be better used, though.
Power Attack, generally: This is my current "best idea". I'm looking at having a 17 str off of point buy if there's space for Faerie Mysteries, which can then be a 19 after racial (PF half-elf floating bonus). I would pump atk with feats like Chaos/ Knowledge/ Law Devotion, and later grab Lady's Gambit to really lay down the hurt. If there's any feats that can give me more than the +3 of Law Devotion at level 1, I'd really like to know what I could pick up. This style allows me to use any 1h or 2h weapon (or more likely an EWP from PF's half-elf alternate race features), and is fairly efficient. I do have free access to pounce, but see ubercharging above. This style is boring so I'd rather find something else. The only reason I'd take it is because Lady's Gambit is really flavourful.
Something else: what else is there that's interesting for a mundane to do in combat? Flasks? Something else? Enlighten me on what I can use to save my hide in high-lethality (ie not dumb opponents) combat situations.


TL;DR: What interesting things can a mundane character do in combat that are effective? Level 1-3; 3 feats max.

[Florian]

Learn to combo with yourself.

Switch from Mystic Ranger over to Hunter and enjoy using teamwork feats for fun and profit, along with a very good spell list. That might be one of the most solid "solo"-classes right now.

[GilesTheCleric]

Learn to combo with yourself.

Switch from Mystic Ranger over to Hunter and enjoy using teamwork feats for fun and profit, along with a very good spell list. That might be one of the most solid "solo"-classes right now.

Here? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/hunter) up to 3rd level ranger and druid spells at level 8... not bad. BAB is medium, but that's not a huge problem. I'll have to see if there's a handbook so I can learn how those PF kits/ archetypes work with it.

[Psyren]

Wait, it's E8? Doesn't that mean you'll be fighting mostly humanoid(-shaped) opponents then, and not dragons or psychopomps or balors or whatever else? If that's the case, you should be fine doing any combat maneuvers you personally find interesting.

[GilesTheCleric]

Wait, it's E8? Doesn't that mean you'll be fighting mostly humanoid(-shaped) opponents then, and not dragons or psychopomps or balors or whatever else? If that's the case, you should be fine doing any combat maneuvers you personally find interesting.

I do expect to fight a lot of humanoids, yes, but it's not out of the realm of possibility that there will be other things (which I could probably just run away from). The problem comes down to variability in my mind. CMB means that I'm rolling a 1d20, and the defender always gets an auto-10, and gets to add dex as well. Since most foes will be mundanes, I expect them to have reasonably high str and dex, say total mod of +5 minimum. My strength mod isn't going to be higher than +4 from the get-go, and I can add +1 from Enlarge Person. +2 from a weapon (someone mentioned a staff) and +2 from imp grapple gets me a total of +9 +7 to the check, and I would be unarmed the rest of the time. I need at least a +15 in order to reliably ignore the die roll, and that's necessary because in PF grappling doesn't do anything until they're pinned (two checks, and two rounds). I have to be able to reliably succeed twice in a row.

Edit: I forgot there's no weapon allowed, or else I get a -4.

[Psyren]

CMB means that I'm rolling a 1d20, and the defender always gets an auto-10, and gets to add dex as well.

Well, yeah. You realize this is also how AC works, right? :smalltongue:


Since most foes will be mundanes, I expect them to have reasonably high str and dex, say total mod of +5 minimum. My strength mod isn't going to be higher than +4 from the get-go, and I can add +1 from Enlarge Person. +2 from a weapon (someone mentioned a staff) and +2 from imp grapple gets me a total of +9 to the check. I need at least a +15 in order to reliably ignore the die roll, and that's necessary because in PF grappling doesn't do anything until they're pinned (two checks, and two rounds). I have to be able to reliably succeed twice in a row.

As noted above, you should be thinking about CMB like an attack roll (because it is one.) "Ignoring the die roll" on an attack vs. a CR-appropriate foe is supposed to take a buttload of optimization. And that includes needing magic items and buffs, so getting that level of optimization in a low-magic campaign where those things are scarce is going to be disappointing if that's your goal.

[GilesTheCleric]

Well, yeah. You realize this is also how AC works, right? :smalltongue:

I do :smallredface:


As noted above, you should be thinking about CMB like an attack roll (because it is one.) "Ignoring the die roll" on an attack vs. a CR-appropriate foe is supposed to take a buttload of optimization. And that includes needing magic items and buffs, so getting that level of optimization in a low-magic campaign where those things are scarce is going to be disappointing if that's your goal.

That's the thing. It is basically an attack roll, but a worse one. I need to succeed twice in a row, and then keep on succeeding for it to work. With an attack roll, a failed check somewhere in the middle of your routine doesn't make much impact. Here, it wastes two extra rounds to recover. Optimization is fun, and allows me to make an unorthodox build feasible (sometimes).

[Psyren]

That's the thing. It is basically an attack roll, but a worse one. I need to succeed twice in a row, and then keep on succeeding for it to work. With an attack roll, a failed check somewhere in the middle of your routine doesn't make much impact. Here, it wastes two extra rounds to recover. Optimization is fun, and allows me to make an unorthodox build feasible (sometimes).

It's harder because the consequences are more severe. Succeeding on one sword swing means the opponent loses some HP, and things like DR or regen can diminish the effectiveness of that. Succeeding on a grapple check means the opponent is severely restricted (especially if they're a spellcaster) and you also get a bonus to keep them that way.

Because it's harder, you're expected to have access to resources like magic items and class features to help you bridge that gap. Doing it without those is kind of a tall order, and I have no idea what a typical CMD you'd be trying to hit would be in E8 either, so we're more or less shooting blind.

[GilesTheCleric]

It's harder because the consequences are more severe. Succeeding on one sword swing means the opponent loses some HP, and things like DR or regen can diminish the effectiveness of that. Succeeding on a grapple check means the opponent is severely restricted (especially if they're a spellcaster) and you also get a bonus to keep them that way.

Because it's harder, you're expected to have access to resources like magic items and class features to help you bridge that gap. Doing it without those is kind of a tall order, and I have no idea what a typical CMD you'd be trying to hit would be in E8 either, so we're more or less shooting blind.

That's a good point, it is generally a better condition than "lost some hp" -- I was really hoping that someone in the group would roll up a rogue to take full advantage of it. For me, the draw is the flavour (wrestling is such a large part of childhood, and is an unusual combat style afterwards outside of tournaments), and the versatility (my character is armed all the time, everywhere. If I'm in court and some assassins bust in, I have more of a fighting chance than my peers whose weapons are all peace-bonded).

I'm expecting a CMD of 15, minimum. If I have a +7 on my check, I'll need to roll a 9 for a 55% success rate.

[Kurald Galain]

Tactics can help a lot. Enemies become easier to disarm or to grapple if they're already prone, or flanked, or flat-footed (because you won initiative or are stealthed). Also, you can use a reach weapon for several maneuvers to avoid the AOO, thus using them without any feats.

(edit) oh yeah, the trait Bred for War gives a flat +1 to CMB.

[GilesTheCleric]

Tactics can help a lot. Enemies become easier to disarm or to grapple if they're already prone, or flanked, or flat-footed (because you won initiative or are stealthed). Also, you can use a reach weapon for several maneuvers to avoid the AOO, thus using them without any feats.

(edit) oh yeah, the trait Bred for War gives a flat +1 to CMB.

Tactics are a good point. If my grapple is good, then chances are good that I have an okay shot at tripping first, then grappling. I hadn't considered that. Don't I get a -4 if I'm using a weapon, though? I can avoid the AoO with 3.5's Improved Grab, but I'd probably end up taking PF's improved grapple anyway just for the +2 bonus.

I'll see about the trait -- we have two 'slots' that we can take either traits or flaws with, and I've currently opted for two flaws.

[Florian]

Tactics are a good point.

(Hunter example, melee hunter)

I´m always in favor of the most simple approach.
Take a Wolf Companion, it has free trip attempts along with the Bite attack.
Pick Unarmed Strike, Vicious Stomp and Improved Grapple for yourself. Bonus Teamwork feat goes to Coordinated Maneuvers (+2 CMB when teaming up).

So, flank target, wolf trips, trip triggers stomp AoO, you grapple, wolf assists grapple.

[GilesTheCleric]

(Hunter example, melee hunter)

I´m always in favor of the most simple approach.
Take a Wolf Companion, it has free trip attempts along with the Bite attack.
Pick Unarmed Strike, Vicious Stomp and Improved Grapple for yourself. Bonus Teamwork feat goes to Coordinated Maneuvers (+2 CMB when teaming up).

So, flank target, wolf trips, trip triggers stomp AoO, you grapple, wolf assists grapple.

That sounds pretty effective! I'll try statting that out in a bit.

[Florian]

That sounds pretty effective! I'll try statting that out in a bit.

It´s all rather simple and provides good buffs in a low magic game.
You gain Outflank as a bonus feat on 2nd, raising flanking bonus from +2 to +4 for both, Hunter and Wolf.
You gain a bonus Teamwork feat on 3rd and 6th that you automatically share with your companion. You can always change your latest teamwork feat when you have the chance to prepare for a specific combat, giving you a huge boost in flexibility. Outmaneuver also raises the CMB for the wolfs trip attempt.
You gain Animal Focus on 1st and can have a 2nd Animal Focus up at 8th. Along the line are stuff like enhancement boni to physical stats and rather good skill boosts. The best thing? You can switch the Focus over to your companion to boost it.

Further feats should then go towards Vital Strike, followed by Winter´s Strike for the Hunter.
The Companion should have Intimidating Prowess, Power Attack, followed by Cornugon Smash to soften up the target.

Edit: Forgot that Vicious Stomp also needs Combat Reflexes. But that only delays the progression a bit.

[GilesTheCleric]

It´s all rather simple and provides good buffs in a low magic game.
You gain Outflank as a bonus feat on 2nd, raising flanking bonus from +2 to +4 for both, Hunter and Wolf.
You gain a bonus Teamwork feat on 3rd and 6th that you automatically share with your companion. You can always change your latest teamwork feat when you have the chance to prepare for a specific combat, giving you a huge boost in flexibility. Outmaneuver also raises the CMB for the wolfs trip attempt.
You gain Animal Focus on 1st and can have a 2nd Animal Focus up at 8th. Along the line are stuff like enhancement boni to physical stats and rather good skill boosts. The best thing? You can switch the Focus over to your companion to boost it.

Further feats should then go towards Vital Strike, followed by Winter´s Strike for the Hunter.
The Companion should have Intimidating Prowess, Power Attack, followed by Cornugon Smash to soften up the target.

This sounds good; thank you for helping me with this! I'm way out of my depth when it comes to PF things, so having a very concrete build is useful. It sounds like this build should do well at low levels, and even if the tripping combo doesn't go off, having a second fighter as a class feature never hurt.

I'm still open to suggestions for other things, so if anyone has ideas on the fronts of grappling with the mystic ranger, going with an AoO build, maneuvers, or anything else, those could be neat, too.

[Captain Morgan]

As I said in the other thread, Steelfist-Commando-Warlord. 1st level maneuvers aren't very exciting but that rapidly changes. Broken Blade and Thrashing Dragon for damage, Steel Serpent grants utility and debuffs, and Golden Lion let's you move allies outside of their turn and makes you into a Bard-light. The Warlord also gets several static bonuses as it levels which will help offset the lack of items, gets solid out of combat abilities, and bonus feats to use things like Improved Grapple as well.

Alternatively, if you are worried about beating CMD, I don't think anything pushes CMD as high as the Lore Warden. You'll get tons of bonus feats to help out. Be sure to grab Dirty Fighting instead of Combat Expertise and look through the Weapon Master's handbook.

[GilesTheCleric]

As I said in the other thread, Steelfist-Commando-Warlord. 1st level maneuvers aren't very exciting but that rapidly changes. Broken Blade and Thrashing Dragon for damage, Steel Serpent grants utility and debuffs, and Golden Lion let's you move allies outside of their turn and makes you into a Bard-light. The Warlord also gets several static bonuses as it levels which will help offset the lack of items, gets solid out of combat abilities, and bonus feats to use things like Improved Grapple as well.

Alternatively, if you are worried about beating CMD, I don't think anything pushes CMD as high as the Lore Warden. You'll get tons of bonus feats to help out. Be sure to grab Dirty Fighting instead of Combat Expertise and look through the Weapon Master's handbook.

Warlord does get 4+int skill points, which is more than I was expecting; the abilities all look solid. I don't see any other out-of-combat utility to it, though -- what am I missing?

[Captain Morgan]

Warlord does get 4+int skill points, which is more than I was expecting; the abilities all look solid. I don't see any other out-of-combat utility to it, though -- what am I missing?
It's mostly that they actually have a reason to invest in Charisma, which means you can be a really solid party face. Social skills are among the most important, but a martial without class features tied to CHA has a hard time not dumping CHA to keep their combat abilities from suffering.

You can also use the Body of The Night stance and Steelfist-Commando to get great stealth bonuses, making you the resident ninja.

There's also ways to gain access to other martial disciplines which can add broader utility. Veiled Moon can get at will teleportation and walk through walls. Cursed Razor can get Blindsense. Black Seraph gets at will flight.

[Florian]

This sounds good; thank you for helping me with this! I'm way out of my depth when it comes to PF things, so having a very concrete build is useful. It sounds like this build should do well at low levels, and even if the tripping combo doesn't go off, having a second fighter as a class feature never hurt.

If you pick any PF class with a companion, you´ll notice that this changed a lot from 3,5.
First, the Companion is now a class that levels along with you, gains feats and skills.
Second, the "form" of the Companion (i.e. Wolf, Marax...) is now a template that you apply to the Companion "class" at 1st level and, details depending on the exact "form", later on a second time (Not unlike an archetype).
I just picked the Wolf because it is somehow iconic for free tripping. There´re way better ones (Large Cat!) or really weird ones like the Marax (Sort of small T-Rex) or Skavelings (Large undead ghoulish bats that you need an feat to activate).... Hell, there´s a class that can have an Imp as an Companion.

[Captain Morgan]

Also, any PoW class tends to be better at skills by virtue of having more points and a decent mental ability score. There's also the Vigilante Stalker archetype coming out, which blends Investigator style skill bonuses into the mix. PoW is also very dip friendly, which is nice.

The other cool thing is PoW detaches you from the reliance on full attacks inherent to Pathfinder.

If you go Steelfist-Commando, snag the Enforcer feat. You can make almost every enemy you punch shaken with that.

[GilesTheCleric]

It's mostly that they actually have a reason to invest in Charisma, which means you can be a really solid party face. Social skills are among the most important, but a martial without class features tied to CHA has a hard time not dumping CHA to keep their combat abilities from suffering.

You can also use the Body of The Night stance and Steelfist-Commando to get great stealth bonuses, making you the resident ninja.

There's also ways to gain access to other martial disciplines which can add broader utility. Veiled Moon can get at will teleportation and walk through walls. Cursed Razor can get Blindsense. Black Seraph gets at will flight.

Ah, that makes a lot of sense. Having a cha-focused class with a decent number of skill points would fit this campaign perfectly! I'll definitely try building one.


If you pick any PF class with a companion, you´ll notice that this changed a lot from 3,5.
First, the Companion is now a class that levels along with you, gains feats and skills.
Second, the "form" of the Companion (i.e. Wolf, Marax...) is now a template that you apply to the Companion "class" at 1st level and, details depending on the exact "form", later on a second time (Not unlike an archetype).
I just picked the Wolf because it is somehow iconic for free tripping. There´re way better ones (Large Cat!) or really weird ones like the Marax (Sort of small T-Rex) or Skavelings (Large undead ghoulish bats that you need an feat to activate).... Hell, there´s a class that can have an Imp as an Companion.
Huh, interesting. Since the setting is ancient china, I'll probably stick to something more "realistic", like a lion or wolf, though I could always refluff one of the other critters if they're not too crazy.


Also, any PoW class tends to be better at skills by virtue of having more points and a decent mental ability score. There's also the Vigilante Stalker archetype coming out, which blends Investigator style skill bonuses into the mix. PoW is also very dip friendly, which is nice.

The other cool thing is PoW detaches you from the reliance on full attacks inherent to Pathfinder.

If you go Steelfist-Commando, snag the Enforcer feat. You can make almost every enemy you punch shaken with that.

If the archetype is in the open playtest, I shouldn't have too much trouble asking my GM to accept it. I'm glad to hear I can avoid full attacks. Tripping (exclusively) and full attacks/ pouncing all make combat so boring. I'll have to see if I'm allowed to dip barbarian/ mystic ranger to get bear totem for the improved grab if that turns out to be possible with a PF class.

[stanprollyright]

Reach weapon, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Wolf tripping companion? PF Rangers can actually be decent at switching between two-handed melee and ranged, by focusing Str and grabbing a Mighty Composite bow and ranged feats sans prereqs from Combat Style.

[GilesTheCleric]

Reach weapon, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Wolf tripping companion? PF Rangers can actually be decent at switching between two-handed melee and ranged, by focusing Str and grabbing a Mighty Composite bow and ranged feats sans prereqs from Combat Style.

How does it compare to PF Hunter? The Ranger in the OP is a 3.5 Ranger, which nets me wildshape and wiz spells (in exchange for all class features, including the combat styles).

[Florian]

How does it compare to PF Hunter? The Ranger in the OP is a 3.5 Ranger, which nets me wildshape and wiz spells (in exchange for all class features, including the combat styles).

The PF Ranger gravitates more on FE and FT, therefore needing huge amounts of foreknowledge, like always. Its Companion is still Druid -3 and the list you can chose forms from is very damn limited.
The alternative to the Companion, sharing FE with the party, is not very common. RCS has greatly been expanded and it is a boon to pick feats while ignoring the prereqs for them.
One of the make-it-break-it things is the spell Instant Enemy, allowing you to pick FE on the fly.

(Edit: In a play-thru of Jade Regent, we had a character perform very impressive. Ok, easy when you know the three most common enemy types and the three most common terrains beforehand...)

The PF Hunter has maybe the best Companion in the whole game, surpassing even the Druid. Your combat choice, melee or ranged, will entirely depend on what other characters are there. Inquisitor or Cavalier (or other class heavy on teamwork feats)? All is fine, go archery. Else, you gotta do the buddy-move. The Spallcasting and self-buffing is way better than what the Ranger can offer and is en par with most of the other 3/4 casters.

[stanprollyright]

How does it compare to PF Hunter? The Ranger in the OP is a 3.5 Ranger, which nets me wildshape and wiz spells (in exchange for all class features, including the combat styles).

Idk I've never played with a Hunter.

[Captain Morgan]

I'm also a big fan of the Sacred Hunter Inquisitor archetype. Really solid animal companion which shares teamwork feats, on top of a really versatile chassis which includes Bane for huge damage, spell casting, and skill bonuses. It's also compatible with other archetypes, and with the right Inquisitions you can get WIS to face skills TWICE.

[GilesTheCleric]

The PF Ranger gravitates more on FE and FT, therefore needing huge amounts of foreknowledge, like always. Its Companion is still Druid -3 and the list you can chose forms from is very damn limited.
The alternative to the Companion, sharing FE with the party, is not very common. RCS has greatly been expanded and it is a boon to pick feats while ignoring the prereqs for them.
One of the make-it-break-it things is the spell Instant Enemy, allowing you to pick FE on the fly.

(Edit: In a play-thru of Jade Regent, we had a character perform very impressive. Ok, easy when you know the three most common enemy types and the three most common terrains beforehand...)

The PF Hunter has maybe the best Companion in the whole game, surpassing even the Druid. Your combat choice, melee or ranged, will entirely depend on what other characters are there. Inquisitor or Cavalier (or other class heavy on teamwork feats)? All is fine, go archery. Else, you gotta do the buddy-move. The Spallcasting and self-buffing is way better than what the Ranger can offer and is en par with most of the other 3/4 casters.

I expect to face almost entirely humans and other PC races as foes this game, but it seems somehow like cheating to choose any of those things as a favored enemy (my ethics are strange, I know), so I was actually going with the favored organization variant in UA previously. Is there an option like that in PF? If not, I could see about houseruling it.

In terms of other players, I expect one other person to bring a bard, but I don't know about the others. Probably initiators (so melee? There's only one ranged discipline, right?).


I'm also a big fan of the Sacred Hunter Inquisitor archetype. Really solid animal companion which shares teamwork feats, on top of a really versatile chassis which includes Bane for huge damage, spell casting, and skill bonuses. It's also compatible with other archetypes, and with the right Inquisitions you can get WIS to face skills TWICE.

Being a clerical inquisitor is one of my favourite character personalities, and huge social buffs sound good. I'll look into it, thank you!

[Captain Morgan]

Oh, and the Investigator and Alchemist are worth mentioning. The former is known for being a skill king and generally rocks the long spear, where the former does bombs and crazier transforming. But both are INT based classes with a lot of skill points to throw around, penchant for poison and potions, and extracts. Extracts are cool because you can use stuff like Monstrous Physique to turn your character into a natural weapon monstrosity, especially if you have studied combat or sneak attack going. That's a nice way to mix up the pace of combat.

The Alchemist's bombs can also be incredible and versatile, especially if you can get away with nova'ing. They become pretty amazing for dealing damage and debuffs at the same time.

[GilesTheCleric]

Oh, and the Investigator and Alchemist are worth mentioning. The former is known for being a skill king and generally rocks the long spear, where the former does bombs and crazier transforming. But both are INT based classes with a lot of skill points to throw around, penchant for poison and potions, and extracts. Extracts are cool because you can use stuff like Monstrous Physique to turn your character into a natural weapon monstrosity, especially if you have studied combat or sneak attack going. That's a nice way to mix up the pace of combat.

The Alchemist's bombs can also be incredible and versatile, especially if you can get away with nova'ing. They become pretty amazing for dealing damage and debuffs at the same time.We had an Alchemist in our group a few campaigns ago. He was... sad. I assume that's because the player had no idea what he was doing (3 ~5d6 touch attacks at level 15? That's pretty weak). Which of inquisitor, investigator, hunter, and alchemist would you say best fits into a Three Kingdoms China setting? They all sound fairly viable. Edit: Oh, and Warden. That also sounded like a good suggestion.

[Captain Morgan]

We had an Alchemist in our group a few campaigns ago. He was... sad. I assume that's because the player had no idea what he was doing (3 ~5d6 touch attacks at level 15? That's pretty weak). Which of inquisitor, investigator, hunter, and alchemist would you say best fits into a Three Kingdoms China setting? They all sound fairly viable. Edit: Oh, and Warden. That also sounded like a good suggestion.


Sounds like he wasn't really building for bombs there at all. You can easily have as many as 5 bombs out a round by level 8, though you'll run out pretty quick if you do that. Each doing 4d6+15 damage, splash damage to secondary targets, and additional debuffs like entangled, staggered, or nauseated.

Not being an expert on Chinese culture, I'd really say that's up to you. Warder springs to mind, because Path of War definitely has some eastern influences. You seem into the social aspect, and the Inquisitor probably has the highest ceiling for face skills though?

[gorfnab]

Here's a handbook that has some other options for combat: [3.X] Person Man's Guide to Melee Combos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?127026-3-X-Person-Man-s-Guide-to-Melee-Combos)

[Florian]

I expect to face almost entirely humans and other PC races as foes this game, but it seems somehow like cheating to choose any of those things as a favored enemy (my ethics are strange, I know), so I was actually going with the favored organization variant in UA previously. Is there an option like that in PF? If not, I could see about houseruling it.

Hm...

Right FE on the right FT and the Ranger goes through the roof. Not only in sheer combat ability, but his skills literally explode. So the question here is more how prevalent such organizations would be in your campaign world. If it´s less common to encounter members of an organization compared to the Ranger FE types, that´s be an unnecessary nerf.


We had an Alchemist in our group a few campaigns ago. He was... sad. I assume that's because the player had no idea what he was doing (3 ~5d6 touch attacks at level 15? That's pretty weak). Which of inquisitor, investigator, hunter, and alchemist would you say best fits into a Three Kingdoms China setting? They all sound fairly viable. Edit: Oh, and Warden. That also sounded like a good suggestion.

5d6 at 15? Then your alchemist either used an archetype or went out of his way and multi classed. At that point, he should have had (level)+Int Bombs at 8d6+Int base damage.
Your typical "Mad Bomber"-Archery based Alchemist should top that by far and is a very versatile and thematic class.

Now the question of something being thematic fitting is a harder one. I´ve read some of the chinese classics (War of the Three Kingdoms, Dreams in the Red Room) and recently watched the first episodes of the chinese 50part Three Kingdoms epos, so my imagining of such a setting is very low magic, no wuxia, and so on.

[GilesTheCleric]

Sounds like he wasn't really building for bombs there at all. You can easily have as many as 5 bombs out a round by level 8, though you'll run out pretty quick if you do that. Each doing 4d6+15 damage, splash damage to secondary targets, and additional debuffs like entangled, staggered, or nauseated.

Not being an expert on Chinese culture, I'd really say that's up to you. Warder springs to mind, because Path of War definitely has some eastern influences. You seem into the social aspect, and the Inquisitor probably has the highest ceiling for face skills though?
I'm expecting the game to be mostly social (the premise is that all the players will start out as low-ranking nobles), and knowing my GM, there will be plenty of interesting "social combat". I'll prioritize Inquisitor and Warden, then.

Here's a handbook that has some other options for combat: [3.X] Person Man's Guide to Melee Combos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?127026-3-X-Person-Man-s-Guide-to-Melee-Combos)
That's a really good resource, thank you! I had used three of P_M's other guides, but missed that one. The slight-of-hand section makes me wish I could disarm with a skill check. That could be neat.

Hm...

Right FE on the right FT and the Ranger goes through the roof. Not only in sheer combat ability, but his skills literally explode. So the question here is more how prevalent such organizations would be in your campaign world. If it´s less common to encounter members of an organization compared to the Ranger FE types, that´s be an unnecessary nerf.

5d6 at 15? Then your alchemist either used an archetype or went out of his way and multi classed. At that point, he should have had (level)+Int Bombs at 8d6+Int base damage.
Your typical "Mad Bomber"-Archery based Alchemist should top that by far and is a very versatile and thematic class.

Now the question of something being thematic fitting is a harder one. I´ve read some of the chinese classics (War of the Three Kingdoms, Dreams in the Red Room) and recently watched the first episodes of the chinese 50part Three Kingdoms epos, so my imagining of such a setting is very low magic, no wuxia, and so on.

Oh, so PF rangers get terrain and enemy at the same time? Huh. I guess I'll keep it as-is, then, if only for the comedy of watching my character sheet catch fire.

This was back when PF was pretty new, maybe 2010 or 2011, so there may not have been as many options available. I don't remember if he was focused on mutagens or bombs (I remember him talking about bomb-related things), but all he ever did was throw a few force-energy bombs at enemies. Maybe he never full-attacked? I do feel bad for him, because he was in a party with a PF wizard, oracle, and a 3.5 cleric, and his demise came at the veils of a prismatic wall (I hadn't thought to give him freedom of movement to prevent him being bullrushed into it, so it was my fault he died :smallfrown:).

All I've seen of ancient china is that 4-hour film, I think it was "The Last Emperor". I'm planning to read the Romance before the game (the Romance is part of the setting), and it sounds like there will indeed be some wuxia mixed in because, you know, D&D.

Edit: Amêsang had this, if you're curious: http://dnd.schadenfreudestudios.com/sun_wukong_skills.txt

[Psyren]

Early PF is even worse, as there were few to no archetypes back then that would have so drastically impeded his bomb damage. So he must have been multiclass or simply didn't know what he was doing.

@ Ranger - the FE bonus in PF applies to attack as well as damage, which means it applies to CMB and makes a ranger's special attacks against their FE more likely to succeed. Add in Instant Enemy and you can get a substantial bonus to your check (up to +10) very quickly even without archetypes.

[Captain Morgan]

A thing to remember about Rangers though is that FE humanoid only applies to a specific race. So if you are only dealing with humans it is amazing, but if it's a random assortment of dwarves, orcs, elves, and more, you won't see those bonuses nearly as consistently.

One way go get around that is the Horizon Walker prestige class. It nets favored enemy style bonuses against anything native to your favored terrain, and that bonus grows rapidly.


One thing to note about either option. While a Ranger can become very powerful based on raw numbers, they don't excel at options. You can throw some combat maneuvers on them but their bonus feats aren't oriented towards that, rather than just full attacking with their weapon of choice. They can get high skill scores, but they don't have a ton of unique options thanks to their very low spellcasting.

Horizon Walker can get some neat stuff though, like dimension door 3 times a day.

[GilesTheCleric]

A thing to remember about Rangers though is that FE humanoid only applies to a specific race. So if you are only dealing with humans it is amazing, but if it's a random assortment of dwarves, orcs, elves, and more, you won't see those bonuses nearly as consistently.

One way go get around that is the Horizon Walker prestige class. It nets favored enemy style bonuses against anything native to your favored terrain, and that bonus grows rapidly.


One thing to note about either option. While a Ranger can become very powerful based on raw numbers, they don't excel at options. You can throw some combat maneuvers on them but their bonus feats aren't oriented towards that, rather than just full attacking with their weapon of choice. They can get high skill scores, but they don't have a ton of unique options thanks to their very low spellcasting.

Horizon Walker can get some neat stuff though, like dimension door 3 times a day.

Are we talking PF or 3.X here? Because there's a 3.X Horizon Walker.

[Florian]

I'm expecting the game to be mostly social (the premise is that all the players will start out as low-ranking nobles), and knowing my GM, there will be plenty of interesting "social combat". I'll prioritize Inquisitor and Warden, then.

That's a really good resource, thank you! I had used three of P_M's other guides, but missed that one. The slight-of-hand section makes me wish I could disarm with a skill check. That could be neat.


Oh, so PF rangers get terrain and enemy at the same time? Huh. I guess I'll keep it as-is, then, if only for the comedy of watching my character sheet catch fire.

This was back when PF was pretty new, maybe 2010 or 2011, so there may not have been as many options available. I don't remember if he was focused on mutagens or bombs (I remember him talking about bomb-related things), but all he ever did was throw a few force-energy bombs at enemies. Maybe he never full-attacked? I do feel bad for him, because he was in a party with a PF wizard, oracle, and a 3.5 cleric, and his demise came at the veils of a prismatic wall (I hadn't thought to give him freedom of movement to prevent him being bullrushed into it, so it was my fault he died :smallfrown:).

All I've seen of ancient china is that 4-hour film, I think it was "The Last Emperor". I'm planning to read the Romance before the game (the Romance is part of the setting), and it sounds like there will indeed be some wuxia mixed in because, you know, D&D.

Edit: Amêsang had this, if you're curious: http://dnd.schadenfreudestudios.com/sun_wukong_skills.txt

FE Bonus goes to ATK and DMG, along with CMB. Skill-wise, it affects Bluff, Knowledge (the relevant one for the race or habitat), Perception, Sense Motive and Survival.
FT Bonus goes to Init. Skill-wise, it affects Knowledge (Geography), Perception, Stealth and Survival.
In a sense, it also leads to HiPS.
Think about Human and Urban and the Rogue dies from utter shame.

As for the Alchemist, in a certain sense, Wizards should die from sheer envy until they themselves reach the levels where they can cast 8th level spells.
Normally, it´s one bomb/round. With the right discovery, it becomes iterative attacks/bombs (plus Rapid Shot). With the right discoveries, you can really go nova and damage/debuff/BFC in one glorious show of madness, like Stink Bumb > Frost Bomb > Void Bomb for sickened, staggered, tripped besides the whole damage. Ok, you´ll run out of bombs quick, but it´s a how ;)

[Psyren]

A thing to remember about Rangers though is that FE humanoid only applies to a specific race. So if you are only dealing with humans it is amazing, but if it's a random assortment of dwarves, orcs, elves, and more, you won't see those bonuses nearly as consistently.

One way go get around that is the Horizon Walker prestige class. It nets favored enemy style bonuses against anything native to your favored terrain, and that bonus grows rapidly.

Alternatively, just get a wand of Instant Enemy. Swift Action, minutes/level, any enemy becomes treated as the favored enemy of your choice.

[GilesTheCleric]

Alternatively, just get a wand of Instant Enemy. Swift Action, minutes/level, any enemy becomes treated as the favored enemy of your choice.

Alas, I won't have access to any magic items.