Making a Binder... What do?

[Mongobear]

Gonna start a new campaign set in Forgotten Realms in the next few weeks, and I have decided to try something ive never done before--A Binder. Only problme is I have absolutely ZERO idea what they do/are capable of.

I have read over most of the vestiges, but it still doesnt really help, and I liked the idea of the KotSS PrC, but I am not sure how to make a Binder/KotSS build functionally.

My plan is to make a pretty basic melee dude, maybe with a 2-Hander + Power attack, then go into KotSS, but I dont know which vestiges are the best to focus on for this. Can anyone give me some ideas or tips on the best options for each Vestige level? Minimal cheese please, not looking to break the game, but if Id like to be able to atleast be compareable to a decently made Barbarian if possible, or atleast know which Vestiges to use so that my lack of attak power is made up by utility Vestiges.

Also, I have read the Handbook, and it nevver really gave a good description or tips on making a melee build, it was all really confusing, tbh.

[Albions_Angel]

You want to pick up "expel vestige" as early as possible. Then the binder goes from "Pick a class at the beginning of the day" to "Hold up, Ill do that, give me 60 seconds". There is also a feat for speeding up the binding ritual.

When thats done, you are all set. You can tailor your roll in combat how you want. Some people will want to go for a heavy hitting vestige to help in combat, and therefore as a permanent vestige in KotSS, but you can also get a vestige that casts darkness that no one can see through (not even warlocks), and that you can. Or one that allows you some spells. Or a teleport.

When are you starting the campaign? Level wise that is? If its early, take some time to playtest the vestiges before you go into KotSS. Find one you like.

[The Viscount]

"Best Vestige" is entirely dependent on what role you are looking to fill. If you're going a more straightforward melee build, I would suggest Aym or Ronove at low levels, potentially swapping to Savnok when available, then to Paimon, then to Andras, who's a good one to stick with. When using Andras, if you have the money spring for a Shield of Mercy, which turns your smites into healing. Unlimited smites mean unlimited healing, so you don't have to bind Buer except in really specific circumstances against poison. Improved Binding is an excellent, if not necessary feat for every Binder. I would suggest using your bonus feat on ignore special requirement, since it can be quite annoying for some vestiges. Once you can have more vestiges, Consider Zagan for some fun grapple stuff (he pairs well with Ronove), or the Triad for proficiency with all exotic weapons (this is however the only thing of worth this vestige gives). Chupoclops is a very good melee vestige, though presumably one cannot pounce while mounted.

[Mongobear]

You want to pick up "expel vestige" as early as possible. Then the binder goes from "Pick a class at the beginning of the day" to "Hold up, Ill do that, give me 60 seconds". There is also a feat for speeding up the binding ritual.

Yeah I read over those Feats, and made the assumption any of them specifically dealing with Vestiges was a good option, I just wasnt sure in what prority it would be worth taking them.


When thats done, you are all set. You can tailor your roll in combat how you want. Some people will want to go for a heavy hitting vestige to help in combat, and therefore as a permanent vestige in KotSS, but you can also get a vestige that casts darkness that no one can see through (not even warlocks), and that you can. Or one that allows you some spells. Or a teleport.

Afaik, the party im joining has a half-***'d melee build, a Spell-focused Druid and some kind of Swiss Army Mage, not sure on specific classes/builds, just a general concept of them. I figure if I build a 2nd half-***'d melee character along with the extra utility of Vestige swapping, it should be pretty balanced, if not extremely strange of a party.


When are you starting the campaign? Level wise that is? If its early, take some time to playtest the vestiges before you go into KotSS. Find one you like.

Im starting at level 7, and the rest are level 8, i think. Not really sure if I have time to test Vestiges before KotSS, i think i already will meet req's for 1-2 levels of it.

[Waazraath]

For the OP: what handbook did you read? There are several, with conflicting views at some points, if I recall well. (see: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=399.0 --> base classes --> tome of magic.

As for advice of my own: on feats, I wouldn't go for expel vestige. It's 1/day, it doesn't always work, has a penalty on the binding check if it works.... improved binding is imo a much stronger feat, since higher level vestiges give on quite some levels significantly stronger powers.

Consider what ability scores you need for your build. If you want to go mostly melee, I'd keep str as high as possible, and leave cha at a 14 or 16 (depending on how you roll your stats). There are melee vestiges that don't or hardly give (good) abilities that require a save; a really high cha is pretty useless then. There are also nice ways have cha play a role in melee (acererak's paralyzing touch, followed by coup de grace, as a random example), and ways to optimize you saving throws, but if you want a pretty basic melee dude, I'd ignore that.

The starting level is nice, you're only 1 level away from binding two vestiges. Good vestiges for melee are several. Andras is nice, especialy with the trick The Viscount already mentioned. Chopuclops is the beste melee vestige imo - extra natural attack, pounce, everbody in 10 feat -2 to almost everything, and utility stuff, it's great. I also think Paimon is very good. Free whirlwind attack, 'dance of death' is nice (especially with a reach weapon), and +4 dex for free is also very good. Another good option, if you can increase your number of attacks, is andromalius, for a few d6 sneak attack dice.

Suggestion for the last mentioned option: you might pick a race that can get extra natural attacks. This could be warforged (with jaws of death, and at later levels extra slam, two feats for 3 extra natural attacks), or any humanoid with abberant feats incl deepspawn, for two tentacle attacks. Binder 6, KotSS 1; have 3 attacks, that both add 2d6 sneak attack damage. If you want to go the ubercharge route (like a lot of barbarians would), you can collect feats after this for shock trooper; after all, it'll take till lvl 10 till you can pounce with chopuclops. At lvl 8 you get an extra attack, and another vestige to play with... since none is really nessesary for this build to funcion, you are flexible, wether there is a vestige that the situation asks for or one that you just like. The scouting option of Malphas is great, if the agaras trick is an option, that's great as well. Or just go for another natural attack with Amon, for 5 attacks. All this while wearing heavy armor and wielding a greatsword, because of KotSS.