Most defensive character?

[Firechanter]

Just looking for some input here... what if I wanted to make a character as defensive as possible, versus practically all kinds of threats, physical and magical? So high AC, high HP, good Saves, Resistances, Immunities...

My initial thoughts go into the direction of Barb, Ancients Pala, Monk.

[Arkhios]

Monk isn't the bread and butter of saves anymore in 5th edition so I would drop that one.
Maybe a combination of Champion Fighter 10 / paladin 6 / Ranger 4 (with the latest Unearthed Arcana iteration of a variant without spells, and take the Bear spirit)

You'd get a total of 4 fighting styles from it: 2 from Champion, 1 from paladin and ranger each.
Fighting Styles: Defense (+1 to AC when wearing any armor), Mariner (+1 to AC when wearing light or medium armor), Protection (Must use shield; can use your reaction to impose disadvantage on someone's attack against an adjacent ally) and one more, maybe Dueling to drive through the message that you mean business as the "tank", which means you have to be threatening. not only being nigh-impossible to be hit at.

Necessary stats in priority order and related feats that I'd go with would be:
Strength: Sentinel, Shield Master (well, ok, not really related to Strength, but it goes here for saving line-space)
Constitution (well, duh): Durable & Tough, 'nuff said.
Charisma: Inspiring Leader if you can muster the feats. Almost forgot the saves as a paladin.
Dexterity up to +3 bonus: Medium Armor Master feat and wearing the best medium armor there is.
Wisdom: Alert (as THE defender of your group (probably?) you'll want to be the first in initiative, and also to be able to have your allies benefit from Protection style even if you're not)
Intelligence: uh, well, you don't really need it, so your call.

Since you'll get only 5 Ability increases or feats (total): Alert > Shield Master > Tough > Sentinel > Medium Armor Master + 1 feat if you're a variant human: (I'd take Alert, and follow down the priority lane)

Obviously, you'd want godly stats (roll well!) to mitigate the loss of ability score improvements, IF you want the feats instead of ASI that is.
OR you could drop the ranger and 4th fighting style (maybe Mariner) and go 14 levels in Fighter and get 2 more ASI/feats.
With Mariner dropped, you won't need that high dexterity, and you could take Heavy Armor Master instead of Medium Armor Master, and gain non-magical weapon damage reduced by 3 for each common damage types: Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing.

[RulesJD]

Assuming AL legality:

1. Human variant Bear Barb (3)/Oath of Ancients Paladin (7)/Sorc Wild Magic (1)/Battlemaster Fighter (9)

ASI/Feats (5 total): Toughness, Resiliency (Wisdom), Shield Master, ASIs in whatever you're weak in (CHA to add to all saves from Pally aura, Con for more Health, Dex for more AC/Initiative).

Near as I can tell, this provides you with as much variety as you can get against various threats.

Class Selection:
Wild Magic Sorc gets you Shield + Advantage on saving throws practically at will depending on DM. Plus most Wild Magic surges are beneficial.

Battlemaster Fighter gets you both the ASIs, Fighting Style (protection + Defensive from Paladin), and combat maneuvers that can up your tankiness even more.

Bear Barb obviously nets the 1/2 damage against most everything, advantage on Dex saves, etc.

Paladin gets you a fighting style, some VERY helpful low level defensive spells if you're not raging (*cough* Bless *cough*), immunity to disease and most importantly, +CHA to all saves and always up resistance to spell damage.

Feats:
Toughness (duh)

Resiliency (Wisdom): Tankiness means you don't want to be suggested, dominated, etc. Given that you're going to start in a class without that proficiency, you're going to want to shore this up. Dex saves will still be probably a bit low, but you'll almost always have advantage on them from Barbarian levels + Shield Master adding +2/zero damage.

Shield Master (duh): +2 minimum to most dex saves and a save for zero option is too good to pass up when combined with advantage on dex saves from barbarian.

There are some other feats that might help (Defensive Duelist comes to mind for when you run out of Shield spells if you want to just use a rapier). But I would honestly just go Dex/Con depending on the threats you're facing.

Starting Stats:
STR 8
DEX 14
CON 16
INT 8
WIS 14
CHA 14

Human Variant (+ to Con and Wis) + Resiliency (Wis) to start.

[Foxhound438]

Assuming AL legality:

1. Human variant Bear Barb (3)/Oath of Ancients Paladin (7)/Sorc Wild Magic (1)/Battlemaster Fighter (9)

ASI/Feats (5 total): Toughness, Resiliency (Wisdom), Shield Master, ASIs in whatever you're weak in (CHA to add to all saves from Pally aura, Con for more Health, Dex for more AC/Initiative).

Near as I can tell, this provides you with as much variety as you can get against various threats.

Class Selection:
Wild Magic Sorc gets you Shield + Advantage on saving throws practically at will depending on DM. Plus most Wild Magic surges are beneficial.

Battlemaster Fighter gets you both the ASIs, Fighting Style (protection + Defensive from Paladin), and combat maneuvers that can up your tankiness even more.

Bear Barb obviously nets the 1/2 damage against most everything, advantage on Dex saves, etc.

Paladin gets you a fighting style, some VERY helpful low level defensive spells if you're not raging (*cough* Bless *cough*), immunity to disease and most importantly, +CHA to all saves and always up resistance to spell damage.

Feats:
Toughness (duh)

Resiliency (Wisdom): Tankiness means you don't want to be suggested, dominated, etc. Given that you're going to start in a class without that proficiency, you're going to want to shore this up. Dex saves will still be probably a bit low, but you'll almost always have advantage on them from Barbarian levels + Shield Master adding +2/zero damage.

Shield Master (duh): +2 minimum to most dex saves and a save for zero option is too good to pass up when combined with advantage on dex saves from barbarian.

There are some other feats that might help (Defensive Duelist comes to mind for when you run out of Shield spells if you want to just use a rapier). But I would honestly just go Dex/Con depending on the threats you're facing.

Starting Stats:
STR 8
DEX 14
CON 16
INT 8
WIS 14
CHA 14

Human Variant (+ to Con and Wis) + Resiliency (Wis) to start.

you need 13 str to mc in or out of both paladin and barbarian

[Foxhound438]

some of the time a bearbarian resistance and hp is best, in some cases ancients paladin's saves and magic resistance is best. also note that ancients capstone still heals you even if you're at 0 hp. you can then bonus action death ward and still continue hitting your foe, or gain 100 hp from your lay on hands. barbarian definitely has more hp and tanking power, but without spells you really don't have a good way to peace out or heal if you need to.

Next best thing after those two is probably long death monk, since you can go to 1 20 times before going down.

[RulesJD]

you need 13 str to mc in or out of both paladin and barbarian

Hm fair point. Well if you're going AL legal then just play Lost Mines and grab some Gauntlets of Ogre Strength.

Or just swap Dex/Str, which I'm guessing would be easier. Two ASI into Dex gets you at least +5 to dex saves (Paladin Aura + ASI + Shield Master) for direct attacks and +3 on AoEs at save for zero.

[JackPhoenix]

Astral Projectioning Wizard hidden behind his personal army of chained Simularcums in his own personal Demiplane/Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion. Who needs HP/AC/Saves/etc., when your enemies can't get to you in the first place?
Wrong edition?

[Dimers]

Just looking for some input here... what if I wanted to make a character as defensive as possible, versus practically all kinds of threats, physical and magical? So high AC, high HP, good Saves, Resistances, Immunities...

My initial thoughts go into the direction of Barb, Ancients Pala, Monk.

High AC can be accomplished lots of ways -- that's basically irrelevant to the discussion of class.

Monk class offers the widest variety of ways to protect or immunize against special circumstances, and one strong protection against a plethora of problems. Quick movement helps against prone-knocking tactics and ranged attackers. Dodge as a bonus action. Deflect Missiles. Slow Fall. Stunning (making enemies temporarily harmless). Half or zero damage on Dex saves, auto-end charm and fright, immunity to poison and disease, proficiency bonus to all saves, reroll saves, improved invisibility that comes with resistance to everything except force. Avoid combats completely with shadow powers, stay conscious a long long time with Long Death.

More of those benefits deal with magic or ranged attacks. For melee, barbarian, fighter and warlock are useful. If you have armor of agathys and fire shield running, who's going to want to melee you? Mirror image and blur are nice too. Devil's sight invocation works great with shadow monk darkness. Barbarian, you already mentioned. Even one level in fighter nabs you d10+1 healing per rest and +1 AC in armor from fighting style.

Since I don't like managing spell duration, if I were laying out a 20-level build I'd probably go with bearbarian 3, battlemaster fighter 3, long death monk 14 -- that snags almost every defensive feature of monk and fighter, along with the most important one from barbarian (for three minutes per day).

[Kane0]

Barbearian 3 / Ancients Pally 7 / Death Monk 10 sounds like a fun combo. You'd have to roll very good stats though.

[MrStabby]

Maybe a gnome paladin rogue sorcerer?

Oath of the ancients, rogue to 5 to halve damage and sorcerer for fire resistance, shield, mirror image and blur.

Gnome for advantage on crucial wisdom saves. Shield mastery to help with passed dex saves?

[Longcat]

For each category, the following options are strong:
High HP: Barbarian, Moon Druid, Hill Dwarf
High AC: Sword & Board, Defense Style (Fighter 1, Paladin/Ranger 2), Bladesinger 2 (Bladesong, Shield, Absorb Elements)
Good Saves: Monk 14 (Proficiencies), Paladin 6 (+Cha on Saves), Fighter 9 (Rerolls)
Resistances: Bearbarian 3 (All except Psychic), Ancients Paladin 7 (Magic), Moon Druid 10 (Elemental Wildshape comes non-magic weapon resistances)
Immunities: Meaningful immunities are rare. Adamantine Armor grants crit immunity, but does not come with +X bonuses by default.
Defensive Reactions: Monk (Deflect Arrows), Rogue (Uncanny Dodge), Spells (Absorb Elements, Shield), Shield Master

Mix and match depending on your needs. For example, a Bearbarian/Paladin has great resistances, good HP and good saves (including Constitution). A bit more MAD than standard Paladin due to 14 Dex being optimal for medium armor. AC is reasonable with medium armor and shield. Damage output is also fine with Duelist style, Oathbreaker bonus, Rage bonus and Divine Smite.

For actual 1-20 gameplay with PB27, it would look like this:
Variant Human (no reason not to play them if they are allowed): Shield Master
Str 16 (15+1), Dex 14 (13+1), Con 14, Int 8, Wis 9, Cha 13
Level 1-3: Barbarian, Bear Totem (is there even a choice here?)
Level 4-11: Paladin, Duelist Style, Oathbreaker, +2 Str, +1Cha/Wis
Level 12: Barbarian, +2 Str
Level 13-20: Fighter, Defensive Style, Eldritch Knight, +6 Cha

This assumes you still want a reasonable damage output. If you don't, invest the Str ASIs in Con instead.

[KorvinStarmast]

Carl von Clausewitz: the purpose of defense is to enable to ensuing counter attack.

Kambei Shimada: (http://m.imdb.com/title/tt0047478/quotes?qt=qt0220961) A good fort needs a gap. The enemy must be lured in. So we can attack them. If we only defend, we lose the war.

[Arkhios]

Carl von Clausewitz: the purpose of defense is to enable to ensuing counter attack.

Kambei Shimada: (http://m.imdb.com/title/tt0047478/quotes?qt=qt0220961) A good fort needs a gap. The enemy must be lured in. So we can attack them. If we only defend, we lose the war.

A very astute point. I salute thee.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The most defensive character I ever played with perceived an endless list of imaginary slights and felt a constant need to vocally justify their own behavior to no one in particular. Very standoffish. And hey, that character didn't die.

[Foxhound438]

Barbearian 3 / Ancients Pally 7 / Death Monk 10 sounds like a fun combo. You'd have to roll very good stats though.

if you want to go for monk you should probably be going all the way to 18, otherwise you miss out on long death non death, diamond soul, and empty body, and you end up only having deflect and evasion. i get that the things you need are kind of "covered" (poorly imo) by the other classes, but remember with that build you're looking at 4 stats you need at 13 just to get all the classes, and then you don't have much con, not to mention a measily 3 asi's, so don't count on that being viable without rolling stupid good stats, and even then i'd still go for 18 in monk if i wanted to do monk tank at all.

[Firechanter]

Carl von Clausewitz: the purpose of defense is to enable to ensuing counter attack.

Kambei Shimada: (http://m.imdb.com/title/tt0047478/quotes?qt=qt0220961) A good fort needs a gap. The enemy must be lured in. So we can attack them. If we only defend, we lose the war.

Yes, good points -- of course the purpose of this thread is rather academic; a purely defensive character is pretty useless to the party, if it sacrifices so much in offense as to allow the enemy to simply ignore it.

Currently I play a purely offensive character (GWM Vengeance Pala), and while the offensive potential is really awesome, he has only mediocre AC and HP, and so hard-hitting enemies like to focus him, and depending on timing/initiative I sometimes get only one swing in and then keep getting dropped all the time. :6 We do have a Barbarian in the party who is supposed to "draw aggro", but he refuses to go Reckless most of the time, so enemies prefer to attack the more rewarding target, me.

[Markoff Chainey]

I wonder why nobody brought up the Moon Druid or Moon Druid / Monk build for Kung-Fu Panda weirdness.

Moon Druid is hands down the most AL legal defensive character if defensive = road block.

[Lonely Tylenol]

My lazy contribution is that Paladin 6 (Charisma to saves) goes well with both Monk 14 (proficiency in all saves) and Bearbarian 14 (imposing disadvantage on all attack rolls against you) for a strong 20th-level suite. The former gives you as much as 11 + primary stat to each save (plus things like Evasion and the ability to dodge as a bonus action), while the latter gives you decent saves, but incredible resilience to all damage types (free disadvantage on attacks, and resistance to almost every damage type in the game for everything else). Depending on the build, shields can be used, as can Defensive Duelist if necessary. MAD as hell, though.

[Dimers]

if you want to go for monk you should probably be going all the way to 18, otherwise you miss out on long death non death, diamond soul, and empty body, and you end up only having deflect and evasion. i get that the things you need are kind of "covered" (poorly imo) by the other classes, but remember with that build you're looking at 4 stats you need at 13 just to get all the classes, and then you don't have much con, not to mention a measily 3 asi's, so don't count on that being viable without rolling stupid good stats, and even then i'd still go for 18 in monk if i wanted to do monk tank at all.

Setting aside the ability to astrally project, Empty Body means invisibility and resistance to everything. Invisibility means your attackers are disadvantaged. You can easily get both effects elsewhere in the build -- bearbarian already has nigh-universal resistance and monk can Dodge as a bonus action. So Diamond Mind at 14th suffices as an endpoint, at least as far as defense goes. I'm definitely with you on going past monk 10, though!


Yes, good points -- of course the purpose of this thread is rather academic; a purely defensive character is pretty useless to the party, if it sacrifices so much in offense as to allow the enemy to simply ignore it.

I don't think that's even possible in 5e, at least based on class choice. You can choose to spend your action each round on Dodge but that's not about build, it's just bad tactics. Grab Sentinel somewhere along the way, you'll be dangerous enough.

[Socratov]

My lazy contribution is that Paladin 6 (Charisma to saves) goes well with both Monk 14 (proficiency in all saves) and Bearbarian 14 (imposing disadvantage on all attack rolls against you) for a strong 20th-level suite. The former gives you as much as 11 + primary stat to each save (plus things like Evasion and the ability to dodge as a bonus action), while the latter gives you decent saves, but incredible resilience to all damage types (free disadvantage on attacks, and resistance to almost every damage type in the game for everything else). Depending on the build, shields can be used, as can Defensive Duelist if necessary. MAD as hell, though.

My lazier contribution is going to be high con druid. Why need defenses if you can supply a near endless pool of HP.

[eastmabl]

Hm fair point. Well if you're going AL legal then just play Lost Mines and grab some Gauntlets of Ogre Strength.

Can you use magic items to qualify for multiclassing? I don't have the rule book with me to say why you can't, but it doesn't seem to pass my smell test.

[RulesJD]

Can you use magic items to qualify for multiclassing? I don't have the rule book with me to say why you can't, but it doesn't seem to pass my smell test.

Item sets your ability score = X. Multiclassing just says you need Ability score Y or higher. Never seen a term related to natural scores, unaugmented, etc. Obviously the question can come up regarding what to do if you lose the item, but the same goes for what if you get hit by a perma ability score decrease.

[Longcat]

Currently I play a purely offensive character (GWM Vengeance Pala), and while the offensive potential is really awesome, he has only mediocre AC and HP, and so hard-hitting enemies like to focus him, and depending on timing/initiative I sometimes get only one swing in and then keep getting dropped all the time. :6 We do have a Barbarian in the party who is supposed to "draw aggro", but he refuses to go Reckless most of the time, so enemies prefer to attack the more rewarding target, me.

I think it also happens because you have the best (single target) Offense and the second worst defense. Everyone else uses a shield or an equivalent ability, and you wield a two-handed weapon. Also, you totally need some new dice. I'm ordering some from GameScience in January, wanna chime in? :smallbiggrin:

As for our Barbarian, I'm not under the impression that he actually wants to draw aggro. Given his playstyle, it stands to reason that he thinks of himself as a damage dealer, not a tank, and due to his ungodly amount of luck (or rather, your lack thereof) and totally-not-riggedTM d6, he actually is our most consistent source of single target damage.

Which makes me realize I should've rolled a Variant Human. My Bladesinger would be totally awesome with Crossbow Expert.

[RulesJD]

Yes, good points -- of course the purpose of this thread is rather academic; a purely defensive character is pretty useless to the party, if it sacrifices so much in offense as to allow the enemy to simply ignore it.

Currently I play a purely offensive character (GWM Vengeance Pala), and while the offensive potential is really awesome, he has only mediocre AC and HP, and so hard-hitting enemies like to focus him, and depending on timing/initiative I sometimes get only one swing in and then keep getting dropped all the time. :6 We do have a Barbarian in the party who is supposed to "draw aggro", but he refuses to go Reckless most of the time, so enemies prefer to attack the more rewarding target, me.

Um, take 1 level of sorcerer. Congrats, you just gained Shield and became ubertank, even with 2h. Better yet, grab 2 levels of Warlock as well for heal on kill/darkness shenanigans/infinite +8 temp HP from false life invocation.

[Vogonjeltz]

Just looking for some input here... what if I wanted to make a character as defensive as possible, versus practically all kinds of threats, physical and magical? So high AC, high HP, good Saves, Resistances, Immunities...

My initial thoughts go into the direction of Barb, Ancients Pala, Monk.

High HP: Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Moon Druid (if they burn wildshapes and use spell slots for healing)
High AC: Fighter, Paladin. (Barbarian and Monk have a theoretically good AC, but only if they direct all stat points into the formula stats)
Good Saves: Fighter (Indomitable, more ASI), Paladin (Aura of Protection), Monk, Hunter Ranger, Rogue
Resistances/Immunities/Damage reduction: Barbarian, Berserker, Totem Warrior, Battlemaster, Monk, Four Elements Monk, Ancients Paladin, Devotion Paladin, Rogue

So a Battlemaster or Paladin (Ancients or Devotion) would hit all things. Both also have access to defense fighting style.

On the flip side, Fighters have naturally good offense without hardly trying.

[MaxWilson]

My lazier contribution is going to be high con druid. Why need defenses if you can supply a near endless pool of HP.

A 10th level druid can supply about 400 HP per day of Earth Elemental (assuming two short rests). A multiclassed Lore Bard 6 (for Aura of Vitality)/Cleric of Life 1 (Disciple of Life)/Sorcerer 3 (Extended Spell) can supply roughly 2000 HP per day, and he can do it to the AC 21 paladin instead of the AC 17 Earth Elemental, so those HP go farther. You can also boost other people's saves and defend them with Cutting Words, and fight from inside Careful Webs that restrain all your enemies so your allies (who are immune because Careful) get advantage to kill them and cannot effectively be attacked back. Spend your action economy spamming Greenflame/Booming Blade or Fire Bolt.

If you were going for Most Defensive Character (in terms of providing total defense to the whole party) you'd probably do a variant of this: Paladin 6/Cleric of Life 1/Sorcerer 3/Lore Bard 10. Now you have five d10 Bardic Inspiration per short rest (including Cutting Words), +5 to everyone's saves, Tides of Chaos for your own saves, astounding quantities of healing, and four magical secrets (e.g. Circle of Power to give advantage on saves vs. magical effects, plus Evasion-like effect). Arguably that is even better than a Diamond Body monk, and it benefits your whole party, not just you.

[Socratov]

A 10th level druid can supply about 400 HP per day of Earth Elemental (assuming two short rests). A multiclassed Lore Bard 6 (for Aura of Vitality)/Cleric of Life 1 (Disciple of Life)/Sorcerer 3 (Extended Spell) can supply roughly 2000 HP per day, and he can do it to the AC 21 paladin instead of the AC 17 Earth Elemental, so those HP go farther. You can also boost other people's saves and defend them with Cutting Words, and fight from inside Careful Webs that restrain all your enemies so your allies (who are immune because Careful) get advantage to kill them and cannot effectively be attacked back. Spend your action economy spamming Greenflame/Booming Blade or Fire Bolt.

If you were going for Most Defensive Character (in terms of providing total defense to the whole party) you'd probably do a variant of this: Paladin 6/Cleric of Life 1/Sorcerer 3/Lore Bard 10. Now you have five d10 Bardic Inspiration per short rest (including Cutting Words), +5 to everyone's saves, Tides of Chaos for your own saves, astounding quantities of healing, and four magical secrets (e.g. Circle of Power to give advantage on saves vs. magical effects, plus Evasion-like effect). Arguably that is even better than a Diamond Body monk, and it benefits your whole party, not just you.

is that including the healing through spellslots?

[MaxWilson]

is that including the healing through spellslots?

No--if the Moon Druid blows all his spell slots on healing it will add another 184.5 HP per day. Blowing spell slots on wildshape healing is a terrible idea.

[Socratov]

No--if the Moon Druid blows all his spell slots on healing it will add another 184.5 HP per day. Blowing spell slots on wildshape healing is a terrible idea.

Which is true, though you will cast probably once per combat to control/buff, that is until lvl 18, and after wildshape into some combat form or another... So it's not as if you're actively using them all the time.

that said, if you are a wildshape druid you are really defensive, since the 400HP you bring as an elemental are akin to temporary HP: you don't need to heal them back (as in: free abuse taken) and meanwhile you can deal damage, take up attention and actually be the tank. The fact that you are big, threatening and can be hurt makes it a logical reason for the enemy to attack you.

by the way, the build you linked looks like a behemoth, and I think it would really work, except for the fact that you can only take so many actions per turn. And I think those actions are better spent ending the fight then prolonging it. That's not defensive, that's maintaining a status quo. Defensive, (or at least as I say it) means taking the abuse and punishment of the enemy while the squishier guys lay down the hurt. That means you can draw their attention, take whatever they throw at you, but not so well that they see no point in attacking you.

Sure, your build is in terms of expendable HP superior, except that it's no use healing the druid (as long as he can stay in wildshape he's fine) and if you keep healing the others you'll end up the target at which point you are mostly healing yourself which is not optimal in the slightest.

[RulesJD]

Moon Druids are not the ultimate tanks simply because they lack good defenses in that form to several types of attacks, least of which being Int/Wis/Cha based attacks which are typically pretty disabling.

All it brings to the table is high HP, that's it. Drop a Hold Monster on the shapechanged druid and congrats, you just ruined that whole strategy. True tankiness has to take into account all the different methods of absorbing (or at least maximizing the chance at absorbing) enemy attacks, including non-damaging ones.

[Socratov]

Moon Druids are not the ultimate tanks simply because they lack good defenses in that form to several types of attacks, least of which being Int/Wis/Cha based attacks which are typically pretty disabling.

All it brings to the table is high HP, that's it. Drop a Hold Monster on the shapechanged druid and congrats, you just ruined that whole strategy. True tankiness has to take into account all the different methods of absorbing (or at least maximizing the chance at absorbing) enemy attacks, including non-damaging ones.

You know the druid has both the int and wis save proficiency and that they keep their proficiencies when they are higher then the beastform?

[M Placeholder]

Nobody mentioned the necromancer cleric? All those dead bodies, summon a planar ally then buff yourself.

[Daishain]

An alternative setup (more of an active rather than passive defense) would still use ancients pally as a base. Use tunnel fighter, sentinel, and polearm master while wielding a glaive/halberd. Optimize as desired from there. You lose out on AC this way, but make it very very difficult for melee characters to close with you or your party members.

[MaxWilson]

by the way, the build you linked looks like a behemoth, and I think it would really work, except for the fact that you can only take so many actions per turn. And I think those actions are better spent ending the fight then prolonging it. That's not defensive, that's maintaining a status quo. Defensive, (or at least as I say it) means taking the abuse and punishment of the enemy while the squishier guys lay down the hurt. That means you can draw their attention, take whatever they throw at you, but not so well that they see no point in attacking you.

Sure, your build is in terms of expendable HP superior, except that it's no use healing the druid (as long as he can stay in wildshape he's fine) and if you keep healing the others you'll end up the target at which point you are mostly healing yourself which is not optimal in the slightest.

The superhealer will do his healing primarily after combat when action economy is not an issue. If the enemy wants to target you, you have AC 20 without Shield and AC 25 with it, and you can duck into a Careful Web if you need to (or just Dodge)... good luck hitting AC 25 at disadvantage, monsters. In short, you don't mind if they do target you.

It's common for 5E players to spend lots of resources trying to end a fight in 3 rounds instead of 4 in order to reduce the damage they take and therefore the resources they expend. But you can also just build to restore those resources cheaply. If I can win a fight in 5 rounds while spending fewer resources than you spend to win it in 2 rounds, because I heal 240 HP with a single 3rd level spell whereas you blew multiple 4th level spells on smiting, I'm ahead of the game. There is something to be said for the occasional nova in dire emergencies, but usually fighting efficiently and defensively is better.


Moon Druids are not the ultimate tanks simply because they lack good defenses in that form to several types of attacks, least of which being Int/Wis/Cha based attacks which are typically pretty disabling.

All it brings to the table is high HP, that's it. Drop a Hold Monster on the shapechanged druid and congrats, you just ruined that whole strategy. True tankiness has to take into account all the different methods of absorbing (or at least maximizing the chance at absorbing) enemy attacks, including non-damaging ones.

I think you mean "All it brings to the table is high HP, Int/Wis save proficiencies, immunity to a number of nasty conditions including grappled and prone, flying, tremorsense/blindsight, burrowing, and Earth Glide." Toss on a nice Darkness spell or a Stinking Cloud for obscurement and now the elemental is attacking at advantage while you have to save vs. poison to do anything but retch miserably. Additionally, a Mobile Moon Druid in elemental form is a brokenly good kiter, either flying or burrowing, depending.

The Moon Druid brings rather a lot to the table via wildshaping, and his spells bring even more.


An alternative setup (more of an active rather than passive defense) would still use ancients pally as a base. Use tunnel fighter, sentinel, and polearm master while wielding a glaive/halberd. Optimize as desired from there. You lose out on AC this way, but make it very very difficult for melee characters to close with you or your party members.

This doesn't work. Dumb enemies will try to close with you, will sometimes get hit and stopped by Sentinel attacks, and will otherwise close and kill you. Somewhat smarter enemies will Dodge up to you, rarely get hit, and will then close and kill you. Smart enemies will waltz up to you and then if you hit them with Sentinel will use their action to Ready a move to close with you as soon as someone else acts (i.e. after their turn ends and their speed is no longer zero, since Sentinel only cuts their speed for a single turn, not a full round).

[djreynolds]

An abjurer wizard isn't all that bad. Even legit, with a mountain dwarf, yes you will have to select moderately armored just for a real shield and then heavy armor. But you can have mirror image, spam shield spell, blur or pro from evil/good, stoneskin, arcane ward ( rechargeable) , and then advantage on spell saves, and perhaps squeeze in resilient con.

Or just dip 1 level fighter, but not at first level, because you want saves in int and wis, and then just take resilient con. Pretty good.

[MaxWilson]

An abjurer wizard isn't all that bad. Even legit, with a mountain dwarf, yes you will have to select moderately armored just for a real shield and then heavy armor.

Mountain dwarves don't get shield profiency, only medium armor.

[Dimers]

Mountain dwarves don't get shield profiency, only medium armor.

S/he mentioned taking the feat Moderately Armored. S/he just didn't capitalize it. The feat also grants shield proficiency, for whatever wacky reason.

One more factor in favor of a Long Death monk build as "most defensive": they also pick up pretty significant chunks of temp hit points here and there. (Reading the entry for Touch Of Death, I have unbecoming thoughts about taking Magic Initiate just to get Find Familiar to cast once a day as a guaranteed source of temp hit points. "Hey, celestial crab, get over here." "Noooo, master, please, I don't want to be subsumed into your dark aura!" Does 5e have a bag-of-rats rule? ...)

[MaxWilson]

S/he mentioned taking the feat Moderately Armored. S/he just didn't capitalize it. The feat also grants shield proficiency, for whatever wacky reason.

One more factor in favor of a Long Death monk build as "most defensive": they also pick up pretty significant chunks of temp hit points here and there. (Reading the entry for Touch Of Death, I have unbecoming thoughts about taking Magic Initiate just to get Find Familiar to cast once a day as a guaranteed source of temp hit points. "Hey, celestial crab, get over here." "Noooo, master, please, I don't want to be subsumed into your dark aura!" Does 5e have a bag-of-rats rule? ...)

Ah, thanks for the correction.

Your idea for Find Familiar is hilarious. Even moreso if you take Ritual Magic (wizard) instead of Magic Initiate to be able to cast Find Familiar multiple times per day. (Although Magic Initiate is probably better for combat, because Booming Blade. Maybe you can use someone else's familiar?)

However, chickens are only 2 cp apiece, which is cheaper and faster than casting Find Familiar. Sacrificing animals to relax after a tough combat is even thematic for a Death Monk, in a voodoo kind of way.

[Daishain]

This doesn't work. Dumb enemies will try to close with you, will sometimes get hit and stopped by Sentinel attacks, and will otherwise close and kill you. Somewhat smarter enemies will Dodge up to you, rarely get hit, and will then close and kill you. Smart enemies will waltz up to you and then if you hit them with Sentinel will use their action to Ready a move to close with you as soon as someone else acts (i.e. after their turn ends and their speed is no longer zero, since Sentinel only cuts their speed for a single turn, not a full round).
It works just fine. For the dumb enemies, the odds of breaking through the defensive line are low enough to notably reduce the number of attacks directed at your person, which therefore reduces HP loss. Enemies that use a trick to bypass the line have in almost all cases wasted their action doing so, again notably reducing the number of attacks directed at your person (among other things).

In the event a large number of enemies (or a particularly dangerous one) have bypassed the line and are waiting for their next turn to destroy the defender, he can simply disengage, back up fifteen or so feet, activate tunnel fighter and force them to waste their turns doing it again. Alternatively, there are many means to force others to back up. Thunderous smite, Thunderwave, and Repelling Blast among them

Bear in mind that if enemies will undoubtedly destroy this build upon closing with it, other builds here are in just as much, if not more, trouble. You aren't losing out on enough passive defense for that to change.

[Finieous]

Gnome totem barbarian is pretty defensive, at least when raging.

* High hit points
* Resistance to all damage except psychic
* Advantage on Strength checks
* Advantage on Dex saves from visible sources
* Advantage on Int, Wis, Cha saves from magic
* Advantage on initiative, rage to avoid surprise

Etc.

[djreynolds]

Mountain dwarves don't get shield profiency, only medium armor.

I know, you'll have to select moderately armored to get the shield but at least you can skip the light armored feat. But it can be done, its just a waste of a feat and you may as well grab fighter first and call it a day. But I like proficiency in int and wiz saves coupled with abjurer saves.